Judge John Hodgman - Trivial Law-Suit

Episode Date: May 13, 2026

Ben and Grayson have a weekly movie night with their friend group. When the movie ends, the group watches odd videos they discover on the internet. This extra viewing has led both Ben and Grayson down a public television rabbit hole. Ben found the Pennsylvania public television game show THE PENNSYLVANIA GAME. He says it’s a perfect public television quiz show. But, Grayson says the game play in the Keystone State is weak. The Maine PBS show SO YOU THINK YOU KNOW MAINE is a much better game show. Who’s right? Who’s wrong?  Thanks to reddit user u/TurduckenEverest for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at reddit.com/r/maximumfun! Have a dispute that you can’t settle? No dispute is too small for the honorable Judge John Hodgman and Bailiff Jesse Thorn! Submit your cases directly to the court at: maximumfun.org/jjho Judge John Hodgman is member-supported! Become a member to unlock special bonus episodes and more. Memberships start at just $5 a month. Just tap here!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff, Jesse Thorne. This week, trivial lawsuit. Ben brings the case against his friend, Grayson. Ben and Grayson have a weekly movie night with their friend group. When the movie ends, the group watches odd videos they discover on the internet. The extra viewing has led both Ben and Grayson down a public television rabbit hole. Ben found the Pennsylvania public television game show, the Pennsylvania game. He says it's a perfect public television quiz show. Grayson says, wrong. Grayson thinks the gameplay in the Keystone State is weak.

The main PBS show, so you think you know Maine, is a much better game show. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgeman enters the court. courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. It's time to hit the jackpot on Judge John Hodgman, Boston's big money and big prize game show where everyone's a winner. Now for all the fun and excitement, here's the man with all the dollars and all the prizes, the kingpin himself, your host, John Hodgman.

Bayliff Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in. Ben Grayson, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he's more of a voyage of the Mimi guy? I do. Absolutely.

It has young Ben Affleck. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Ben, Grayson, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one and only one of yours favors. Because in this show, not everyone's a winner. Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom? Grayson, let's start with you. Grayson, you're in New York City, right, right now? That's right.

Yeah, home team advantage. Sorry, Ben. I'm hoping it pays off. Wait, where's Ben? Where's Ben? Where's Ben? In Chicago? Chicago, yes.

Yeah. Sorry, Second City goes second is what I hear. That's what I hear. All right. What's your guess, Grayson? I'm going to guess the movie quiz show. The movie quiz show. Whiz show, you say. The movie, I'm writing it down right here in my leather bound guest book. You can see

that I wrote it here. I also wrote your name, so I don't forget. And I guess I'm advertising this is a brand of yellow legal pad. So thanks for sponsoring Judge John Hodgman, Basick. It would be great if we were sponsored by legal pads. Legal, I mean, you know, let's get in on that. Standard pads, not quite long enough? That's right. Let's get long. Let's get long on that. All right, Ben. You heard Grayson guess. And so did I, but now I forget what it was. What was it? Quiz show, Robert Redford's quiz.

All right, I better actually write it down here because I'm going to forget otherwise. Quiz show starring Ray Fines as Charles Van Doren and Robert Redford's quiz show. Remember when that was a scandal? Someone cheated on a quiz show and America practically fell apart. Okay, I long for those days. nostalgia's and toxic impulse, but yeah, give me back to Quiz Show. Anyway, sorry, not talking about current events. Timeless fun, you're on Judge John Hodgman.

Ben, what is your guess? I have no idea, so I'm going to pull a name out of the air and say the game show I've never heard of, Bolin in Boston. Bolin with an apostrophe. A Bolin in Boston. Yeah. Uh, wow. And that was a, okay, well, and with an apostrophe, you said. Yeah, the, the apostrophe is load bearing.

Oh, what a shame. It was bowling in Boston. Was the, no, that's not the answer. I was looking for either. All guesses are wrong, including Boling in Boston. But was, in fact, a Boston early evening's local game show called Candlepins for cash. Candlepins for cash. Now, there wasn't. a bowling for dollars in other markets where they rolled ten-pin big ball bowling, as they say. But New England, Ben, if you've ever listened to this podcast before in your life, you know I'm fascinated with New England, my home region. I know. And in particular, Candlepin Bowling, shout out to Ellsworth Candlepin Bowling Alleyes and Ellsworth, Maine, where Autumn Maori is the sole, the only employee and owner allowed to service. the ancient pin setters.

Ben, you know anything about candlepin bowling? In Stratford, Connecticut, where I grew up, we had duck pin bowling. Stratford, Connecticut, born and raised in the duck pin alley. I spent most of my days. I remember your famous rap song. Duck pin bowling. How many balls did you get to roll in duck pin? Two or three.

I think it was just two. I think you're wrong. All right. Well, let's go. Now I've got to look that out. How many. Balls, duck pin. Do ducks have?

Exactly. Three, three rolls per frame. Duck pin bowling. Hey, Grayson, you ever roll a candlepin? I don't think I have, no. You grow up in Stratford, Connecticut? No, I grew up in Nashville, Tennessee. We had regular bowling.

Oh, okay. Well, it's not regular. It's 10 pin. It's not default. You can say typical bowling. Typical basic bowling, I'd like to call it. Well, in Candlepin, as I've probably bored people at Infiniteem on this podcast before, it like duck pin.

It's basically the same as duck pin. So I guess we could move on, but in case you don't know what that is, the balls are smaller and the pins are differently shaped. In duck pin, they look like ducks. They're squat, right? Right, Ben? They're tiny. They're perfect for if you're,

a seven-year-old having a birthday party, which I was. Now, when you, if you cast your mind back, because you already forgot about the number of balls to roll, so you may not recall. And I don't know either. When you, when you hit the pins, if you hit any of the pins and duck pin, do they clear the lane of pins like they do in 10 pin or do they let them lying around on the wood so that you, I mean, in the alley so you can use them to, you know, strategically to hit other pins. You see what I mean? believe that if I recall correctly, the pins remained after. Pins remained down, much like candle pin. Yeah. The candle pin pins are straight and narrow. They're not a curvaceous like a 10-pin pin or a duck pin pin for that matter. And when they fall down, they stay down that you don't clear

them away. So you can use them to knock into other pins and perhaps improve your score because your score is going to be bad. It's very challenging. The ball is smaller. The pins are smaller. Strikes are far and few between. That's where you get three balls. You get these small advantages. And that's why on Candlepins for Cash, which aired in the Boston area, until long, I'm going to say the mid-80s, certainly in the 70s, the one that I was looking at today is a brand new one posted to YouTube.

There are very many of them on YouTube. It was from 1220, 1979, when it aired on Channel 7, then moved to UHF, Channel 25. The host was a guy who I will not name because he went to jail for some bad stuff. He was a local sports announcer who went to jail for some bad stuff and is no longer alive. He was a true, if I may say, a jerk of a host. He was really mean to all the contestants. And he should have been nice to them because when you roll candlepin, you might get, you know, a five or six or seven in a frame after three rolls.

like strikes they say are unusual and when you're playing candlepins for cash you get a buck a pin so people are walking out of there with seven bucks in their pocket maybe they hit the jackpot which which goes up to 20 at 20 dollars every day and then the person who rolls a strike gets the jackpot and the jackpot is routinely like 940 dollars because no one ever day after day after day go by no one ever hits a scrape anyways a lot of fun I love that I love watching some of those old local game shows on YouTube, and it sounds to me like you both do as well. And that's what this is about, right? Some local game shows that don't exist anymore.

But you are younger gentlemen. You were not alive when these shows aired, or not meaningfully alive. We were both alive. The Pennsylvania game ended, I believe, around 2000, 2001. Oh, wow. And so you think you know Maine, I believe ended somewhere in the, the 80s. Is that correct, Grayson? Something like that.

Yeah. So, yeah, about not meaningfully in my lifetime. All right, Ben. You are bringing the case. Tell me the justice that you seek. Tell me which game you like better. So I like the Pennsylvania game, which, as I said, started, I believe, in 1986, 87. And I prefer the Pennsylvania game because it has an enormous amount of charm.

There is a lot of conversation. All the contestants are like journalists, business people. They are the literati of State College, Pennsylvania. Local swells of the Keystone State. That's right. And Grayson, you're reppping. So you think you want to, what is it called? So you think you know Maine.

Right off the bat doesn't roll off the tongue. but I think it's a much superior game game show. Like it has a much higher emphasis on the competition. It has locals rather than like, you know, journalists or local personality. Rather than media elites. That's right. And it's, and there's like returning champions.

It's much more about the competition of it and having, you know, trying to unseat existing champions and advance in the game. All right. Well, we'll get into the nitty-gritty of each of the games. But first, if you're not watching our YouTube channel at Judge John Hodgman Pod, you might be missing the fact that Ben is shaking his head furiously over there in the studio in Chicago, Illinois. Ben seems to have forgotten that this is primarily a podcast, an audio medium. But I appreciate you're not going, no, no, no, no, no, which would be rude. But you can follow us and watch our whole episodes every week at Judge John Hodgman Pod.

And it would really mean a lot to us that even if you like just listening to it on the podcast, totally get it, totally understand. It would still mean a lot to us if you went over to the YouTube for just this once, hit subscribe, cost nothing, hit the bell to get notifications of when we do the shows live or, you know, live to tape. If only, because it helps support the show. It's how people discover podcast now. All right.

Anyway, back to you, back to you too. So Ben and Grayson, you guys are our friends in, you know, what am I going to guess? 30s, shall we say? Yes. 30s? For now, yeah. For now. Yeah.

All right, Ben and Grayson, how did you meet? Ben, you answer. We met when Grayson moved to Chicago some years ago, friends of friends. And memorably, he lived in a apartment with two. other men named Jason. So it was Jason Jason Jason and Grayson. Yes, that's correct. It became a bit of a tourist destination, you're saying.

It did. And you have a weekly movie night or did. We still do. Tell me about that. Oh, you do? Okay. Did it start in Chicago? It is on, if I can buzz market a online chat and video service.

a Discord, which we started in 2020 to keep in touch with each other through all of that. And we had a variety of events that went all week. And as things have changed in the last few years, a lot of those events have dropped off. But bad movie night at 8 p.m. Central in that Discord server has remained on Saturdays for the last six years. Saturday's 8 p.m. Central on your Discord that you share, Grayson, with your friend group.

It's bad movie night. When you say bad movies, what kind of movies? What is some of the movies that you've screened a bad movie night? We got some, like, classically bad movies. It started with the John Travolta movie The Fanatic, where he plays a less-onsensive portrayal on an autistic man. We've done kind of... He plays a sports. fan?

What kind of fanatic is he? He is. A fan of a celebrity? Yeah. He took a stalker, if I remember correctly. Okay. Okay. Gotcha.

We've watched some of the, we watched the War of the Worlds with Ice Cube last year. Must have been hard to find a bad John Travolta movie. Ben, what bad movies do you remember? The bad movies that I remember is we've watched a lot of really baffling talking dogs. movies. There was a movie we watched called Dog Lover Symphony, which has... I don't know that one. Yeah, we've dug deep. That one is a lot of bad talking dog movies are actually upsetting melodramas. And so this was about like people falling in love and the dog is providing commentary the whole time. And then there was Love on a Leash, which also was a Talking Dog movie.

There was a man who was cursed and was a dog by day and a handsome human at night. Talking dog movies are among my favorites. You've heard of day walkers. What about dog walkers? Good one. Thank you. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

And you walk in the day, you're. dog. I can only imagine that you've all the Shaggy DAs or whatever to get to these weird deep cuts. Shaggy D.A. is my daughter's favorite movie, by the way. That's a DA was Shaggy. All right. Now, Grayson, you don't just watch bad movies. You also follow it up with something called sicko hours. Dare I ask. That's right. Well, because this started during COVID and there's, you know, we'd watch a movie and then it's like, well, we're all still inside. We can't go anywhere still. So we started just sharing as you do, weird YouTube's you've seen a lot of old VHS rips of bizarre movies from the 80s and 90s.

Old game shows obviously have come up and old failed television. Well, Ben, you are here to stump for a particular game show. Did you discover the Pennsylvania game? Which came first to Sick O'O. Pennsylvania game or so you think you know Maine or whatever it's called. My parents are recent Pennsylvania transplants and on a visit home recently I saw them watching the Pennsylvania game. Okay.

And I was entranced by that. So I had to bring it to sick oh hours. And as a group, we all grew kind of obsessed with the Pennsylvania game. So the Pennsylvania game came first, and you send in some screenshots that express the vibe of the game. Now, these screenshots will be available on all of our social medias, and if you're watching the YouTube right now, you will see them. Jennifer Marmer, our wonderful producer at Max Van H.K., would you mind putting up the screenshots in the order that you wish? All right, here we see a very adorably low rent. Was this public television?

This is... This feels public television. Public television. So from Pennsylvania, public television, out of State College, I believe. Sure. And it looks like you have three, obviously, high-level media elites in Pennsylvania, sitting behind a powder blue desk staring at a television. Yes.

I don't know. Does it have a host or is it just the television? The host you can see behind the cutout of the Pennsylvania game, that's Lynn Hines, the first host of the show. He's about to cross and begin hosting. Oh, okay. Gotcha. How many hosts were there?

There were three. Lynn Hines, Lynn Collin, and Scott Bruce. Are you writing the fandom wiki for this show or what's going on? How come you know so much about it? My brain is a vacuum cleaner for completely useless knowledge. Well,

tell me a little bit about this character, Kevin Nelson. Kevin. We have another picture here. So, whoa, four moods of Kevin Nelson. That's incredible. For those who are not watching but merely listening, this is the same guy wearing four very distinctively different hairstyles. One is a mullet.

One is a perm. One is sort of a Dave Foley slash John Hodgman, circa 2006 look. And then he's obviously doing some American psycho cosplay in the bottom of. left. This looks like the world's craziest actor's split headshot. Like instead of showing what he would look like as a paramedic and a police officer, it's just four wigs. Yeah, four different versions of a game show guest. Who was, or is Kevin Nelson? What's his story then? So I believe that Kevin was a radio personality in the area. I included this in the evidence because Kevin Nelson, as far as I can tell,

is one of the only or few people that showed up in the show across all three hosts, across like the entire length of all 12 seasons of the show. I shared this because one of the things I really enjoy about the Pennsylvania game is that a lot of the panelists return and play frequently. And so you get a real sense of them as both players and as persons. I have what I believe is a clip that I just found of Kevin Nelson in action from the Pennsylvania game. I'm not sure what oh 1993 this episode was called journalism liquor and the IRS so already I'm very excited let me see if I can put that up here for you right see if you're

clapping after you hear this first question it's a real oinker in 1985 in South of Pennsylvania. According to the company's founder or head hog, New Pig Corporation markets its products throughout the United States and in 30 other countries. The question is, what kind of product does New Pig Corporation sell? Wow.

Is it a leather goods, B, industrial absorbens, C, C, cut-bellied pet pigs, or D, pork food products. Yeah, that's what, this is one of those ones you're thinking, well, are they going to be obvious, or are they trying to fake me out or... That's what I'm thinking. New Pig Corporation.

I need you panelists to come up with a response. Mull it over for at least one half second. Mullet over or mullet it over? Hang on. That's it. That's it. Just do it. Kevin. I thought they made swine coolers. Swine coolers. He sold it with a shake of his tail there.

industrial absorbance. Yes, and we'll go with some bad puns while we're at it as well. Okay, now, which host is this? I'm pausing it now. That's Lynn Collin. Lynn Cullen. Lynn Cullen's kind of hot. I'm not going to lie.

Lynn Cullen is kind of hot, Jesse. You think so? Yeah, I'm not here. Look, I'm not here to rank these hosts based on how hot they are, but Lynn Collins is pretty hot. Before we get to Lynn Cullen, that was Kevin Nelson. That's Kevin Nelson, correct. I like a woman with tall and wide hair.

So Kevin Nelson there comes in with a pretty good joke. I thought they made swine coolers. But you also, Ben, wanted to draw our attention to Lynn Cullen, right? That's right. You had some evidence of the many vibes of Lynn Cullen. That's right. Look at that. There you go, Jesse.

Ah, yeah. So Lynn Cullen on the top row there, that's her as a contestant. And she got promoted to host. So that's her as host on the. bottom two photos. I included her because, as you could see, even from that brief clip that we just watched, she has just her tremendous personality. She always wears these really, like, flashy and incredible outfits, as you can see in

these. She's really funny. And when she was a contestant, she would also have big reactions to questions like the one we just watched, where she would be a. like, I have no idea. And you could see her whispering to other contestants, like, clearly going, like, I have, what is this? She is obviously a loose cannon. I mean, there's no question that this woman is whiling out at every opportunity.

She's amazing. Public television style. Yeah. This is my dream job, by the way, to host a public television game show. I mean. Oh, God. I would drive to, bake, if I know that I don't look, there's too many Jimmy Pardoes in Los Angeles for me to get to host. a local game show here.

But I'm willing to drive to Bakersfield or whatever once a week to host a public television game show. Now, one thing I noticed about this game right off the bat, which I know is not true about so you think you know Maine, Grayson. Multiple choice. Multiple choice. And one thing I think I also noticed was obviously a very genial conversational situation. Isn't that part of your argument for it, Ben?

That's correct. It is, it doesn't have a lot of questions in each game. It is, it has the vibe of a bunch of your dad's family friends having a conversation. And Grayson, it says here that, uh, that Kevin Nelson, uh, was beloved in the state college. I found a, uh, an article about his retirement from statecollege.com. Uh, and it says for most of the past 49 years, Kevin or quote, Uncle Kev, as he is known to many and his assortment of co-hosts, has provided us the opportunity to hear about and weigh in on issues that were important to the community. He will be greatly missed by everyone in the state college community,

except for one guy named Grayson who wishes he were dead. Wow. Interesting. Yeah, you made it into the retirement announcement. And then you're quoted here saying, I wish that this were an obituary, not a retirement announcement. Explain yourself. Why do you hate Pennsylvania so much? You know, I don't want to disparage the Pennsylvania game too much.

Obviously, we all love Lynn. We all love Lynn Hines, the first host. We love Kevin Nelson. But I think as you've noticed, it's basically some people chatting on a panel, multiple choice. Very frequently, they'll go to the first person who will answer with confidence. and then the next two people will go, oh, he sounded like he knew what he was saying. I'm just going to repeat his guess.

So I think, so you think, you know, Maine is much more invigorating as a game show. It's much more about Maine trivia. There's more competition about it. And I think it's just a little bit more you can get invested in it. You can get invested in the ups and down to that. Grayson, I feel like I just watched a clip from that show. I feel like you are eliding the sick 3D graphics that I saw in that clip. There is.

Because they put up those options on a title card and then the title card tilted away from me to make room for me to look at those people standing at that podium. I mean, if you're seduced by the razzle dazzle of the Pennsylvania game, I don't know if I can make an argument against that. I think so you think you know, Maine, it's a lot more down home of a set. There's a lot more wood paneling. You know, it's that kind of vibe. I haven't seen So You Know Maine yet, but I'm going to need to see a babe like Lynn wearing some ridiculous outfits. You will not. You know what?

Why don't we take a little look and catch a little vibe of so you think you know Maine? So you think you know Maine. I'll put that up there and we can hear this. Razzle dazzle-dazzle, Jesse Thorne. Look at this. So it opens with like the title sequence from Cheers, but with just an acoustic guitar playing. And the state of Maine...

A photograph, an old-timey photograph of a main place had pass in front of it a state of main shaped segment of a second old-timey photograph of a main place. It just went from left to right on the screen, but it was shaped like Maine the whole time. Yeah, framed by the shape of the state of Maine was, it was specifically a, it was a, that's a lobster trap right there. Lobster trap.

Got it. So you think you know Maine. So you think it's on the nose. There's some lumber. Lumber and sailing ships. I think we can confirm here, John, sick 3D graphics. Yep, sick 3D graphics, spinning state of Maine. There's some people in a cult.

All right. Some old-timey rusticators. I don't know who those people were. We just got the tiniest sliver of a look just now. Maybe it was a homemade skycar of some kind. Yep. You didn't see enough of it to know what it was, but it looked like the kind of thing

that a man would pedal with wheels, go off a cliff and crash and die. Like all those old-timey films of like triplanes crashing. Yeah. That's what it looked like. Well, you know, people forget that Leonardo da Vinci is actually from China, Maine. Did you know that? Yeah. Grew up there. We're up there in Lewiston, actually, my mistake. All right. Here's, you know, Maine. And now here's the host of So You Think You Nal. Here's the host, Lou McNally. Good evening, everybody. Welcome again to another edition of So you think. So this is no Lynn

Cullen, Jesse. Lou McNally. No, but I'm going to say this. I think this is important. As a bald man myself, I really strongly support any bald person that's on television. Man, woman or otherwise, if you're bald and you're on TV, I'm in your corner. Because for too long,

we've been asked to get hair implants, to take special pills, to wear wigs and hats on TV. If you're bald and you're on TV, you're the real hero. And this man is bald and he's wearing a flannel shirt. Well, first of all, how sure can you be that he's bald because the very top of his head is cut out of frame. Thanks, PBS in Maine.

Second of all, he is wearing a flannel shirt. He is bearded. He's very handsome fellow. I think this is from 1987 or so. Now, Jesse, before you arrived in studio, I believe it was Ben saying, oh, I had to make sure that, that was it Ben, that you didn't wear a t-shirt under your shirt? I buttoned up the top. to not show my undershirt. Because about 35 years ago on this program, Jesse, you made a comment about if you can see

someone's undershirt underneath their buttoned up shirt, that's out of style now. Look at Lou Cullen, the host of this thing. It's always been out of style, John. But Lou Cullen is layering here. Lou Cullen is a very on-purpose move. He's not wearing an undershirt. He's wearing a blue T-shirt underneath his red and green plaid flannel. Yeah.

And it is a choice he is making. The color coordination fair. Okay. But it is a choice to layer items. This is not just showing his underpants. It is a new, it is a state of main trick to wear layers. You capture those layers of warm air between your various flannels. Let's listen to a little bit more.

So you think, you know, Maine, we have Graham back to Trier's fourth consecutive show and see if he can make it to the championship round. And we have a new slate of three more contestants. Our judges ready. Our audience is live and we are ready to go here. Here's your first toss-up question panel. Everybody ready on the buzzers for five points. Abigail Webb-Samuelson was born on October 24, 1987. What is her mother's name? Whoa.

Are all the questions that easy? I want to point out a few things that we haven't. John, if you can pause a second. A few things for our at-home list. listener that they can't see. Yeah. Number one, our host in the red flannel. When it cut to a wider shot of him, we saw there was a very serious man in a suit

sitting next to him unidentified. Yep. This guy looks like he's about to host. In fact, he may very well have hosted main gubernatorial debates on that same set. Mm-hmm. Like, but truly, Flannel Man does not say who this other man sitting next to him is. We do not know. There's no Kairon on screen, nothing.

No. Also, in addition to- Nor have they introduced any of the guests. Like, there's been no introduction of the guests. Go right into this question about who was born on this day in Maine. They, you know, a show business maxim, John, always open with your best material. And their best material was, who was this person's mother who's birth? birthday we just listed.

Behind the red flannel man, there is the most conspicuously homemade logo that I've ever seen in my life. Just, they just had a guy with a jigsaw, make this thing and paint you think, so you think you know Maine on it. By the way, like the top of our host's head, most of this logo is cut off.

It says think you know Maine. in the frame. We cannot see that it says, so you think you know Maine. And then this entire set is very cozy. It basically looks like a barn. Yeah. And it's also clearly like two different risers

that are 20 feet away from each other. Also, when we cut to the audience, the audience is only Girl Scouts. They're like, that's what we do in Girl Scouts in Maine. Find out whose mother it is. All right. It was infuriating to me, Grayson.

I'm spleen up so you think you know, may. I cannot wait for these questions. I'm so excited. And this first one is such a stumper. I'm so annoyed from the top. But I'll tell you what, it did ring a bell, and now I remember why. And we got to give props to Joan Benoit Samuelson,

who was a very famously one, said the marathon world record at the Boston Marathon in 1979 when she was running for Bowden College. And then she was the first woman Olympic marathon winner in the Los Angeles Olympics in 1984. So, you know, there are a lot of, look, there are a lot of running fanatics out there who don't listen to this podcast,

but might accidentally, accidentally tune into this podcast at some point, be mad that we didn't know who that. was. But there you go. But this is some deep cuts, Grayson. Don't you agree? I do. And I think, but I think, though, as you can tell, they get right into the action of it. If you don't like that question, you're going to hear 30 more in the next 30 minutes. All right. Let's, if you look, the Pennsylvania game clip we saw, if you don't like that, that pig factory question, you're with that for five, 10 minutes as they riff on it. Well, they got good material. They got that's,

that's swine thing. Swine cool. Swine coolers. By the way, we never did learn what the pig factory makes, right? Do you know that the answer to that one, Ben? You could take it away right now. You know what? The worst thing is I remember watching that episode. And I think it was the leather goods, if I recall correctly, but it could be wrong. Rather goods.

Well, you know what? That might affect my verdict. We'll see. Let's take a look at this, just a little bit more, see if there's anything else we need to know. Oh, yeah, this is the next question. Five points. Abigail Webb Samuelson was born on October 24th,

1987. What is her mother's name? Virginia, whoever that is, comes in hot on the button with Joan Benoit Samuelson. Then who is president of Colby College? No. Anybody know that's William Cochter?

Of course. You dumbbells? Get your heads out of your rears, Virginia. You don't know. president of Colby College. Jesse, I'm not sure, but the panelist on the far right is either Stephen King or paranormal radio talk show host Art Bell.

I'm not sure. Let's keep going. Let's see what happens next. My favorite part about this set, by the way, is that everyone, there's four panelists who have not been introduced. They each have their name in front of them on the podium. However, the names are much too small to read. You absolutely cannot see what their names are.

We'll go on to another five-pound question. Name the county seat of York County. Gary, Alfred. Oh, Stephen King comes in hard with Gary York County. Maine ranks second among the New England states in the production of an important seasonal crop. Nationally, Maine ranks 14th and boasts an impressive yield of 1.7 million potatoes.

Potatoes. What crop is that? Jack? Muscles? No, not muscles. Screw you, Jack. Jack was pretty pumped about that answer. Apples. Apples.

It is for five points. Gary, you know what? I do not question. He's leaning over the, he's leaning over the podium sideways like a, like a drunk at 1 a.m. at a bar, holding himself up with his elbow. He answers the question, and then he just puts his hand in his hair and his face down, like, oh, God. Answering questions again, Gary. All right. I guess that's my life now.

You know what, Grayson? I didn't like that question either because I got it wrong. I did not like them apples. Oh, yeah. And look, oh, man. Look at these again. I mean, we could be doing this all day. These Girl Scouts in here,

particularly the one in the second row with the incredible big frame glasses is just slaying. That is a... Not the nine-year-old dead center with a perm? I mean, and then the one on the right who's sashed with all of her achievement badges is like drooping off her shoulder in this incredibly cool, casual way. This is incredible. One more. One more. A five point question headed your way.

This is a visual question. That's what I'm doing. That's what I'm doing. Here we go. Yeah. When you have a TV show in Maine, you have to remind the viewers. make sure to look at your sets. You know, there's a limited, there's a limited budget on a public television show.

I know this because I host a public radio show. So they simply do not have the money for pate powder, which is powder that would reduce the incredible shine on this man's pate. This man's pate is like, you know how they say that like the moon doesn't make its own light? It just reflects the light of the sun. I think that that's true. His head is shining like the moon on a bright moonlit night. That's right.

It's what we call a wolf moon in Maine. Here we go. This symbol you're about to see appears at least 19 times on the main Department of Transportation maps. And tell me, what does this symbol represent? Border crossing. Is that close enough, Judge? I would think so. U.S. Board of entry.

Of course. Whoa. He's so mad he got that right. All right. These contestants hate being there. There's such contempt for their own correct answers. I mean, one of the things that I think is interesting about, particularly this one, less so the Pennsylvania game, is that like Candlepins for Cash in the 1970s and early 80s,

people were on this show because they loved bowling or they loved answering trivia about Maine. No one had been raised to believe it was their destiny to be on television. Like no one thought, like the way everyone now just feels like, yeah, of course I'm going to be camera ready. Everyone there is just like, no, I do not care about being telegenic. In fact, I'm quite shy and I don't even want to plug anything. It's remarkably sort of genial and naive and innocent in a way. I like it. All right, let's get rid of this.

Just like the viewers at home, these people on this panel are mad that Doctor Who isn't on right now. I'm going to tell you, Ben and Grayson, we're having our own sicko hours right here and it's a lot of fun. You guys have a lot of fun together. That's right. Yeah. I'm so glad to be introduced to both of these things, but Grayson, you started making your case for why, so you think you know Maine.

What, what, make it again. So I think it's more, you're more invested in the actual game of it. Like that episode we just watched, it ends with a buzzer, beat, or answer to resolve a three-way tie. That's like, and there's, there's, there's, unfortunately there's not as much of it online as the Pennsylvania game, but there's actual progression to a season championship. So there's some championship episodes you can find online.

And I think, I think like you're saying, these people are here to demonstrate their knowledge. They're not there to. Right. They're not polished media professionals. Yeah. Pennsylvania. They're not trying to entertain the audience. Right. They're not coming up with sick burns like swine cooler or whatever. They're not, they're just there to answer the questions and then get home and sit in front of their wood stove and nurse their grudges main style.

They're there to fulfill the mandate of every public television station in this country, which is to make regular TV shows only more serious and boring. But why does it matter that one is better than the, I mean, people like what they like here in the Judge John Hodgman extended cinematic universe. So why am I even hearing this case? What argument could you make that one is meaningfully better than the other that I should rule what, Grayson? What would you have me rule if I were to even agree with you necessarily? I'm not saying I agree with you.

One is better. I don't know yet. I haven't decided yet, which I like better. But even if I were to agree with you, what would you have me to rule? You know, we talked about that because obviously this is not, this is a taste-based ruling. And one, we think that it's so specific to the court's interests that maybe you'd have an expertise that we would trust. And two, I think these are. Maybe you just thought that you were going to win automatically because of all the main stuff.

Maybe a little bit. And you probably will, by the way, just so you know, you probably will. The other thing is, I think they're game shows. And so when we're talking about game shows compared to us. other kind of entertainment, there is a game design aspect to it. And I think game design is an art, of course, but also a kind of science. And you can actually look at the, like, how interesting is the gameplay of this game. And I think I'm more invested in the actual competition of a, so you think you know, Maine,

as well as obviously the presentation and the very like public TVness of it is all very fun. But I'm also like, oh, I want, I'm, Will Graham, eke this one out? John, this is a matter of game design. The people from So You Think You Know Maine have designed a game where someone asked a trivia question and then the other people try and answer it. Yes, that's right. They designed that game, that question and answer game. If they get it right, they get points.

Whereas I think, Grayson, you're making the same argument that Ben is making, but for a different reason, which is that the Pennsylvania game is kind of a classic. Stone State hang. Yeah, ultimately, it's, I don't even know that I would call it. It's a game show. It's almost more like a panel chat show. And I don't, again, I don't want to disparage it. No one's saying anything about it.

But there are winners and losers. I mean, it's, what, a, a, Ben, without stumping for Pennsylvania game, how would you describe the difference in game mechanics? I would say that it is a better game. show in the way that a lot of game shows have really flashy presentation and are about the entertainment. And so it is a show that is about spending time with great personalities. And you might learn something, but it's maybe less about the heavy trivia aspect. There's more show to it.

So your argument is that it's more of a show than a game. That's right. Or the show is as important as the game. That's correct. Okay. And was there a prize? What would you win? Industrial solvents?

What do you get? Initially, there wasn't a prize at all. And eventually it would be something made in Pennsylvania. So I just watched an episode where they got a 20-piece dinner set and 50 Pennsylvania lottery tickets. That's hot. I love that. What about, so you think you know Maine, what do you, what do you win if you win the prize? They have tiered prize.

You get, for runners up, you get usually like a mug and a magazine subscription. I watched one grand prize that was tickets to a local production of Dracula. So it's very, you know, a lot of stuff from the main board of tourism or whatever, whatever they could. up would be offered as prizes. And I think what I like about all of these prizes for both shows is they all feel like a birthday gift you would get from a crazy grandma. Yeah. Or something you'd be stuck with at the end of a white elephant game, you know, like a Yankee

swap holiday game. We're going to Dracula and I got you 50 lottery tickets. Okay. Hey, who, who, uh, who, uh, who, uh, who, who, uh, who found. which first. I found the Pennsylvania game first. Grayson found So You Think You Know Maine. And I do think, importantly,

so you think you know Maine was the inspiration for the Pennsylvania game. That's correct. Oh, I mean, that's documented. It was the direct inspiration. As I wanted to do, I was researching the Pennsylvania game, and I found a newspaper article from the 80s

from the original host, who, yeah, very clearly said this show was inspired by another public television show so you think you know at Maine. Who else is involved in sick oh hours on your Discord? How many people? We have kind of a rotating cast, but on a good night,

oh, seven to eight people. Yeah. Give me some first names of these, I presume, all guys. That's Sean, we got Cat, we got Laura. Yeah. Oh, okay. John, men and women can be dateless on a Saturday. So, Grayson, this is what happened, right?

Tell me, tell me that I'm right here, because I know I'm right. Ben comes in. He's got, look, I got something great for Sycorahires tonight. It's called the Pennsylvania game. And starts showing the Pennsylvania game to the Discord. And everyone's going, oh, my God, or whatever, Ben, you're the greatest and the funniest. You truly embody the spirit of the 90s of finding the most obscure,

kitsy piece of culture that we can watch and waste our lives on instead of actually watching good, complete culture that, like, reading Moby Dick or whatever. we love you and we all want to go on a date with you. We're going to make zines together. Yeah, we're going to, yeah, that's right. You got to open up your stapler. We're going to, we're going to staple zines. And then, and then you're like seething over there.

And you're like, I'm going to, I'm going to go do some research and find the original one of these. And I'm going to bring, so you think you know Maine. And then I'll be as popular as Ben. That's what happened, right, Grayson? I mean, in so many words, sure. But I mean... Okay, wow, I was just taking a guess. I mean, I was encouraged by Ben nodding heavily

throughout my entire weird monologue. I mean, it was very, like, when I saw there was more of the Pennsylvania game out there or a spiritual precursor to it, it was very thrilling. Like, all lights were going off. I was like, let's, let's dig into this. You were doing that real 90s hipster stuff of going like, oh, yeah, well, everyone knows about the Pennsylvania game. I like this even more obscure thing that was.

raw that came first. It's like, you know, I liked it. I like the Ramones before they were born. I don't know what that is. You know what I mean? That kind of thing. I do think there's something to the, I mean, I do think there's something to the, it's obviously not even, you know, we're obviously talking with in public television here.

It is, has an earlierness to it. It is not at all a polished game show. It feels a little unrefined compared to the Pennsylvania game, which has a charm to it, to be sure. But I feel like Pennsylvania game is operated. at a different level. The Pennsylvania game reminds me of nothing more than a public radio show in San Francisco on KALW Saturday nights called Minds Over Matter.

And it's just a show where the host used to be this very nice old man. And then this panelist, local media luminaries like San Francisco Chronicle columnist Leah Garchick, would ask each other trivia questions. And if someone got it right, they would ring like a hotel, bell and then after a while they would run out and just start putting people straight on the air to ask their own questions and if no one knew the answer to the question they'd just let it lie they'd just wait until somebody knew the answer to the question they wouldn't say like well nobody knows it the answer is blah blah blah blah they just leave it there and it was just

three miscellaneous local people who were willing to show up at nine o'clock on saturday night and a bellhop bell, and it was an hour of radio magic. And it remains so from what I can tell on the KALW website. Ben, the thing about these shows that made me think of them is that while the main show that we're discussing today

is definitely sleepier than the Pennsylvania game, these are shows that are... The Pennsylvania is like these other shows. It's kind of a hang. But you're not there for the game. You're there because you like the people who are there. And you like game shows. And you have a Hall of Fame of game show hosts that you wanted to share with us. Let's take a look at that, please. Yeah. So this is a framed, signed photo of

Bob Barker, the host, the former host of the Price is Right. Price is Right probably being the most iconic American game show of all time. Would you disagree, Grayson? No, I mean, no, it's a great one. It's a classic. And by the way, a lot of game design in that show. That's true. Like I would say probably that show is more game than show, honestly. That's true. Because the viewer, the viewer is actively playing along by guessing those prices, I would say.

Right? Yeah. And you're not there for the chit-chat between Bob and the new car or whatever it is, right? All right. What's your next one? My next one, this is Richard Dawson, the original host of the family feud, also signed. And one thing I liked about this photo is that it is signed to Bob. So I have it next to Bob Barker.

And the fun thing is on, and I think if you agree, because if you turn this over on the back of this photo is a non-consensual kiss from Richard Dawson. Famously smooched everything that moved on that. show. My daughter watched an episode of the Richard Dawson family feud on YouTube or something, and she could not believe how drunk he was. Yeah, it's incredible. And that show, so this is a real balance of game and show, right? You know what I mean? Like, because that's, that's, there, there isn't a regular panel of guests that you get to know, but it's definitely like, it's families hanging out. It's, it's a guest dynamic. But there is a game design. that features prominently too.

One of the families on the episode my daughter watched was the cast of Gilligan's Island. One of them was people from the Batman TV show, 1966 Batman. You know what? Send that to me immediately. I'll be watching that tonight instead of a finished piece of entertainment

directed or written by someone with real care and love. What's your third one? Survey says, this is my favorite and the one that was... Show me a match game. Yeah, this is Gene Rayburn. the host of the 70s match game. This was the hardest one to get.

And I think that this is my favorite one. He's my favorite host. And to your point, the match game is the least. All show, no game. Yeah, it's all show. It's an incredible spectrum, Ben, because you go from Price's Right, game show, to the feud, game show.

to match game, which is really match show when you think about it. It's just, it's just, you know, Ed Asner's smoking a pipe and drinking scotch while Brett Summers does some lines. You know, it's like really... Rip Taylor just throws confetti at people. It's really quite loose, and the game is very much open to interpretation. There is definitely an open bar backstage. And in some ways, I'm afraid to say to your discomfort, Grace, and that's probably my favorite

game shows, the Magic Game. I like the hang. Ben, what is your argument with regard to these photos of game show hosts that you have in your house? You just know better than Grayson? Yeah, it's to establish some level of game show authority. I'm trying to big dog him. Sorry. No, I got you. Well, you've been big dogging in from the start.

You're the one who brought the Pennsylvania game in. He's just trying to climb out from under you in the Discord. Ben, I think you big dogged him from the start in the field of bad. television by wearing to our taping a hat from the Chevy Chase show. Whoa, I didn't even see that there. That was a sicko hours. We watched every episode of the Chevy Chase show that's on YouTube. So it's almost all 30-ish of them minus a couple.

You can watch live as the fish on the set die. For those who aren't quite as elderly or are generally better socialized, the Chevy Chase. show was a, when, when Johnny Carson retired from the Tonight Show in 1992, there was like this weird late night talk show gold rush where everyone's launched a show. In fact, Wheel of Fortune host Pat Sejack hosted a late night talk show and Chevy Chase was, uh, was unwisely hired to, to act as though he cared about other people. Famously disagreeable comedian, Chevy Chase. The least chill hang on earth with no onstage comedy experience since 1970 or whatever. And he and his, there was one of the gimmicks of the show was there was a giant fish tank behind him.

And did the fish actually die, Jesse, or is that just your? Yeah, many of the fish died. They could not figure out how to keep the fish alive because it was such an inhospitable place. I mean, it looked great on the, on the set. Yeah. Anytime he turned around and he made eye contact with any of those fish, they're just like, I'm out of here. Grayson, if I were to put it to you, which is the most iconic American game show?

Jeopardy or the Price is right? I mean, gun to my head. I'd give it to Jeopardy, but it's close. Give it to Jeopardy. What is Jeopardy? Grayson, Ben has been big dogging you in sick oh hours from the start. A sentence that I've been waiting to say my whole life, you've tried to get back at him with, so you think you know Maine or what.

I can't even remember the name of this show. Don't you think that should be part? Don't you think that should be part of a successful game show that you remember the name of it? I mean, I can't disagree. It has like three different theme songs and none of them are very good. So, I mean, I'll give it. I'll, I'll let that one go. I'm not going to argue for the quality of the name.

I mean, it also has an intro that looks like it's the intro to a documentary about sawmills. Yeah. Yeah, it's like, am I watching a game show or new Yankee workshop? or what I like to call new wanky york shop apparently. Cool. But, Grayson, you want me to say that this is a better show, right? This is what you want to say. Intrinsically a better show.

Yeah, I think that would be victory for you. If you're looking at a couple of game shows, I'm going to give the points to the one that's ultimately a better game show. Oh, I see what you're saying. We're turning into a little bit of a game. And it's a better game show because it's a better game than the Pennsylvania game. More competitive. There's more.

Grayson, do you actually care about who wins the main trivia contest? I mean, as much as I care about who wins an episode of Jeopardy, which is in the moment a lot. I got to tell you, John, my comedy partner, Jordan Morris from Jordan Jesse Go, he worked for many years on the television show at midnight. Yes. And one of the things that he learned that I remember him explaining to me is that while it was a comedy show where they spent all day writing joke questions and joke answers, if the games weren't real, the sickos would write in. They would get so mad that Doug Benson's joke answer didn't fulfill the weird rules about a game about Reddit. But it still wasn't, I mean, as a happy contestant, and, you know, when I was on the show a couple of times, I always worked with Jordan. He was the writer that was assigned to me.

And that was a hang as much as it was a game. I mean, you know, the points were, it was obvious that the points were being awarded arbitrarily to a degree. And it didn't matter who won or lost. In fact, the only thing that mattered to me as a contestant on the show was, how could I lose first so I could get it? get the same amount of money for less work because that would be eliminated, you know, and it's not that I'm lazy. It's just that I'm a little camera shy in those situations. It's like it's nerve-wracking to be up there at a podium.

And even, you know, the game is fake, it feels nerve-wracking. Point is, I need to ask you both now very seriously. If I were to rule in your favor, what would you have me rule? I want Grayson to admit that the Pennsylvania game is the better game show, period. that it is that so you think you know, Maine is not better because of tedious game rules like a better thing. It is a better entertainment package, therefore it's a better game show. Which show do you think, Grayson, does Sick O'Hours like better? Oh, it's not even close. It's Pennsylvania game.

How many episodes of So You Think You Can Main or whatever? It's called Wait, Wait, Wait, Don't Main Me or whatever it is. How many episodes have you watched, would you say? Maybe three, two or three. How many Pennsylvania games have you watched, Grayson? Dozens. Dozens, interesting. And Grayson, what kind of product does new Pig Corporation sell?

Oh, man. Leather goods? Leather goods, industrial absorbance, pot-belly pet pigs, or pork food products. Oh, man. Ben guest leather goods. I'll go with industrial solvents. Industrial absorbance. And you said leather goods, right, Ben? I did. Yes. I think I've heard everything I need to order and make my decision. I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Grayson, how are you feeling about your chances right now? Do you think you'll be rejected like you were in the real world? I think I might be. I feel like I've, you know, It's kind of falling on deaf ears. I think Ben's leaning on the on the show businessness of the Pennsylvania game, the flashiness of it. And I don't know.

I think he's, I'm not feeling confident. Ben, how are you feeling about your chances right now? You look pretty smug. I mean, I'm feeling pretty confident, but I do think I am on hostile terrain because this is about Maine.

And I, I do know that the judge does love Maine, but I do feel reasonably confident. Yeah, I mean, I would say if this was the Bay Area game and you were a contestant, I would say that you were in the building and you were feeling yourself. We'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment. Judge John Hodgman, we're taking a quick break from the case. I want to say first and foremost, thank you to the members of Maximum Fund. Thanks to everybody who signed up during the Max Fund Drive.

Thanks to everybody who upgraded and boosted during the Max Fund Drive. Everybody who got someone a gift membership in the Max Fund Drive, everybody who has been a Max Fund member for years and years. We so appreciate you. We couldn't do this without you. It means the world to us for real. And we are so proud to work for you. I joined Jesse and saying thank you so much very deeply and personally from the bottom of my heart.

In fact, I would love to say so. personally. And guess what? There are a couple opportunities coming up where I could see you personally and you could see me and Jesse in theaters. That's right. We're going to do a couple of shows coming right up at Dynasty Typewriter May 15th. We're going to be doing our night court show. Once again, our night court show. Tell them a little bit about that show, Jesse. Ooh, it's a little saucy. We've got a lot of gags. We wear our little outfits. We all the people in the audience, only if they volunteer to be yelled at. And we have a really great time. There's prizes. Usually, we get some prizes. It's a lot of fun. If you've seen a Judge John Hodgman show before,

trust me, you have not seen us after dark. It's Judge John Hodgman, Nightcourt, and we have two shows coming up. First, May 15th in Los Angeles, at Dynasty Typewriter. You can get your tickets now, bit.ly slash nightcourt, LA. It's all one word, all capital letters. And then return into my hometown of Brookline, Massachusetts. That's right. We're going to the Coolidge. The Coolidge Corner Theater is hosting us once again for our Nightcourt show there. You can get tickets there for our June 11th show, Bit.

Dotley slash Nightcourt Brookline, all one word, all capital letters. It's so much fun to see you when we're doing these shows. It's so much better when you're there. And you know, I'm going into the woods of Maine for an indetermined period of time. So this may be your last chance to see me and Jesse again. for a while. So I hope you will join us. All those links are at maximum fun.org slash events and I gave you the bit least, so rewind your podcast and get those tickets. We'll see you in Los Angeles and Boston and of course here on the Judge John Hodgman

podcast. Let's get back to the case. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman reenters the courtroom and presents his verdict. So you may have seen over my shoulder, Ben or Grayson, or in watching the YouTube of this book, speaking of games, it is the end. list game by J.D. Amato and Sophie Morse. It is a young adult, very charming graphic novel about a new kid in town who's in the 90s, who moves to a town in the 90s, and discovers that all of the other kids over the summer play a game of Capture the Flag that has been going on for 80 years. And it's really funny and charming. We're still putting the finishing touches on my brand new gavel from Offerman Woodshop,

and so I am using this as a gavel, and I shall decide which of you I will throw this book at as I make my judgment here in the verdict. And the rest of you shall go and buy it, I hope, because J.D. Amato and Sophie Morris made a good comic book. I'm trying to, you know, I came into this feeling like, what are we even doing here? People like what they like.

And both of these shows are sort of fun, quite fun indeed and we all had a great time watching them I think that it really made me feel like you know I'd like to maybe be invited to sick oh hours sometime maybe I could find something weird on YouTube to share with you guys

it'd be fun it reminded me of staying up all night with Tim McGonagall and Nick McCarthy and Patrick Flynn and other guys when Nick McCarthy would just screen VHS copies of really terrible movies all night long in high school

you're not in high school I'm not in high school I think that it is appropriate for me to be wasting my life this way now maybe you guys should go and do something productive you're still young but in any case even then I was sort of like well what could I even say here

that's going to say why is one better than the other you both have good arguments as to why one is a better game show and the other one is a better game show right but then it's sort of like apples and oranges. They're both two delicious hand fruit.

Why do I have to choose? I think that's how that metaphor works. And obviously, it went completely against one of the most important pieces of settled law, which is people like what they like. Grayson, you like the main show, whatever it's called. And Ben, you like the other one, the Pennsylvania show. But then I'm like, wait a minute,

does Grayson even like the main show? I mean, does he? And then I was like, maybe it's the case that Ben came in hot with the Pennsylvania game. And then Grayson's like, I got to get back in there. I got to become king of sicko hours again. I'm going to find something else. And there was something about the main show that seemed to me like it was just a little bit

of sicko hours jujitsu. You know what I mean? Just a little bit of like not intrinsic love, but just like maybe I can get over on Ben for once on this. Maybe I'll be the guy who's got the game show hall of fame at home or whatever. I think that it's part of sick oh hours, like essentially what I determined in my mind as to who was going to win this game

was that it was, the winner would be which show is better for sick oh hours, basically, which show is more entertaining for sicko hours? Where do you get more sort of fun laughs? And you would think that I would be totally, Gaga moxie over the main one. And will I be watching it for the rest of the afternoon? Of course I will.

Of course I will. But that is a specialized area of interest that only a few weirdos like me have, you know? And when I take a look at it with my main-loving goggles off, I appreciate that it's boring compared to the Pennsylvania game. But I feel like the Pennsylvania game has. a little bit more oomph to it, is a little bit more lively. I think it's a little bit better produced.

I think that they figured out how to make it as engaging as possible. There is a purity to the main show. I agree. But I have to say, I think the Pennsylvania game is a better game. I will say this. They're both wonderful shows. I'm going to be watching a lot of them. I'm very grateful to you for introducing them to me.

And part of the reason that I love them is that like the candlepins for cash, they're all a snapshot back in time to when no one sort of grew up natively wanting to be and expecting to be on television. The contestants, even the media professionals are just a little bit unpolished and certainly in the Maine show, they're just there because they love weird facts about Maine.

And there's a beautiful naivete about that that I love, particularly when so much of what we see on TV and on social media is people who have grown up expecting to be on camera all the time, which there are many, many talented people in the world who might never be on camera, were it not for social media, but that idea that, yes, we are not human unless we were on camera, that did not exist in the same way back then. And it's nice to see that, especially in the main show. But if I'm going to look for some entertainment and some private sicko hours of my own, you know I'm going to get perverted for the Pennsylvania

game. That's just where it's at. So I'm throwing the book at the winner, which is is Ben. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Ben, how do you feel? Delighted and surprised. I actually didn't, I didn't know if going in,

if I would win despite how smug I was about it. Because of the main connection? Yeah. Are you glad you wore your special hat? I, you know what? I think it helped. I think Chevy Chase helped me from afar. As he's helped so many people. Yeah. Yeah. Grayson, how are you feeling?

Obviously disappointed, although, you know, Judge Mahatjman made a comment about private sicko hours and, I mean, maybe that's where this does belong. I have, in fact, watched as far as I could tell every single extant episode of So You Think You Know Maine. Maybe at this point I'm the only person who has done all that. So I don't know. Maybe that is where it belongs. But I have to respect the ruling, especially given, you know, I thought maybe I'd have a little main edge. But if I lost even with that, I don't know.

It's been a joy to have both of you on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you. Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books. Our thanks to Redator Terducken Everest for naming this week's episode Trivial lawsuit. Join the conversation over on the Maximum Fund Subbred. it. That's our slash maximum fun. That's where we ask for those title suggestions. And we're always glad that people, people really come through for us, John, when we ask for those title suggestions. They really do. And I really enjoy reading them all. You can find evidence and photos from the show

on Instagram, Judge John Hodgman. We're also on TikTok and YouTube, Judge John Hodgman pod. Follow and subscribe there. John, did you know that I also have a public television show that I think I think everybody should go on the internet and watch. What is it? So there are two public television stations here in Los Angeles. One of them is called PBS SoCal. Okay. That is by far the dominant station.

That is the, you know, WNET or whatever of Los Angeles. Got it. There is also a smaller station called KLCS. It's Channel 58. If you're wondering whether it's a well-watched channel, I think the fact that it's channel 58 gives you a little info. It is licensed to the Los Angeles

Unified School District. So it mostly just carries sort of low rent PBS shows, but its signature program is called Homework Hotline. Oh. And it is a show where teachers stand in front of an actual

like blackboard. Yeah. Children call in because they need help with their homework. And the teachers exploit. explain the math and English to them to help them with their homework. This is not for sicko hours. This is purely for wholesome hours.

Yeah, it is incredible. It is a real show. It is a call-in show where children call in because they need help with their homework. I will be watching. I will be watching. Speaking of things that give me a nice, warm feeling, the Max Fund Drive was so much fun and such a success. And obviously, just like naming the show, we couldn't do it without you.

We couldn't do any of it without you. And it was such a pleasure to hear from so many of our listeners and especially our listeners who became members or boosted or upgraded their membership and explain what that membership meant to them. Like our YouTube commenter of the week, the electric climate. That's at the electric climate, Jesse, who wrote, I boosted my membership this week. I've been listening to Judge John Hodgman for the 15 years. you've been making the show, my goodness, since I was a wee lad in high school, in fact.

I think they wrote from Scotland. And I'm glad to have a way to support your work that meant so much to me over the years. Well, your support means so much to us. So thank you very much, the electric climate. And for everyone who became a member for the very first time during Max Fund Drive or boosted or upgraded or simply maintained their membership during times that are obviously tough and challenging. We've got a lot of folks out there who have been members for five. and 10 and 15 years.

And to you, like, that is the foundation of everything that we do. For those of you who have been members for a really long time, you're the reason we know we can hire people and pay for studios and, you know, all of the pieces that are Judge John Hodgman. Like, without you, Judge John Hodgman would just be me and John. chatting about what we think people might have disputes over. The real show that this actually is now. That's because of those of you who've been members for a long time. So thank you so much to all of you.

And, you know, if you want to support the show in another way, you heard my pitch to you at the top of this one, we're on YouTube. And if you prefer to listen to the show rather than watch videos, totally get it, enjoy the show, whatever you want to. but you'd be doing this a huge, a hugely supportive favor by going to YouTube and subscribing.

It doesn't cost anything. Just click the subscribe button. The more subscribers we have, the more people will have the show put in front of them by YouTube. And YouTube is the way people are discovering podcasts now. So that would be really wonderful too. And as long as you're over there,

tell us in the comments of this episode, what you would suggest for sick oh hours? What weird old piece of media have you found on YouTube recently? that you think Ben or Grayson or maybe Jesse and I would enjoy watching in the sick of our lives. Anyway, thank you very much. Thank you, everyone. Judge John Hodgman, created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman.

This episode engineered at tightrope recordings in Chicago, Illinois, and Ginny Media in New York City. Megan Rossotti runs our social media, the podcast edited by A.J. McKee and our video editor, Daniel Spear, our producer, Jennifer Marmer. All right. You ready for swift justice, John? I am ready. Small disputes, quick judgment, Sparkle Spanx on the MaxFund subreddit asks, I've been living with my best friend since 2021. When I call him my roommate, he corrects me and says, we're housemates.

We don't share a bedroom, so I know housemates is the technically more accurate term, but I also think he's splitting hairs. He says it's important to differentiate between the two. First of all, incredible screen names, Sparkle Spanx. I love the idea that someone's out there feeling good in their sparkly spanks when only they know they're wearing them. Yeah, I love this too.

Sorry, flesh tone. Flesh tones out, sparkles in. Sparkle spanks. And what I would say is this. I promise this to be swift. You can call yourself a housemate if you live in a house. You live in an apartment, you're a roommate. That's just how it works.

Not all language is precise. Sometimes it's just colloquial. And if you say you're a housemate and you live in an apartment, it's misleading. Roommate. People understand what it is. Yeah, quit bragging about a house you don't have, you apartment dweller. Speaking of disputes, we need them. Maximumfund.org slash JJHO is where you send them.

And right now I'm looking for summertime disputes. That's right. Summer is almost here. I'm about to self-exile myself to Maine. I'll be recording from W.E.R.U. up there. Can't wait. What are your?

Summertime disputes. Like, what is the fruit of the summer? Is it the watermelon or is it the not so obvious lime? And by the way, yeah, interesting, right? Which is the more summery fruit? While you're thinking about it, please don't squeeze limes in the sunshine or you'll get a terrible burn. It's a weird chemical reaction. Are you, are we doing too much with pool floats? What's the best kind of pool float, a mattress or a noodle, are fireworks overrated? Send all of your summertime hot takes to maximumfund.org or email me directly at Hodgman at maximum fund.org. John, this is a lemon anecdote, not a lime anecdote, but one time my daughter, Grace, was

standing in our kitchen. She peeled a lemon and ate three segments of the lemon before she realized it was not an orange because she was so lost in her thoughts. Oh, you know what? A summertime daydream eating a lemon? What could be more summary than that? We're eager to hear about your disputes on any subject, no matter what citrus fruit they involve.

Please submit them to us at maximum fund.org slash jj-j-o. Maximumfund.org slash jjah-j-j-o. And we will talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgson podcast. Jesse. Jesse, Jesse, I know we're going. But can I just say one thing that I just thought of? Yeah. If you send me your summary disputes, I'll offer you my summary judgments. Oh, my God.

Maximumfund.org slash JJHL. We'll talk to you next time. It's a good one, right? Good one. Maximum Fun. A worker-owned network. Of artists-owned shows. Supported directly by you.