Judge John Hodgman - Troll-o Contendere

Episode Date: July 15, 2015

When someone posts something offensive or wrong on social media, should you call them out?

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm your guest bailiff when the judge vacations in Vacationland, USA. Monty Belmonte from WRSI in Northampton, Massachusetts in for Jesse Thorne. This week, troll o contendere. Charlie brings the case against her boyfriend, Brandon. Brandon says that if a friend posts an opinion or thought on social media, he's entitled to respond with his own thoughts. Charlie says this calling out has gone too far. Hashtag WTF. Hashtag STFU.

Hashtag you're embarrassing me. Who's right? Who's wrong? Who is about to have their relationship status changed? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and issues the obscure cultural reference. Take wrong turns. Talk to strangers. Open unmarked doors. And if you see a group of people in a field, go find out what they are doing. Do things without always knowing how they'll turn out.

what they are doing. Do things without always knowing how they'll turn out. You're curious and smart and bored, and all you see is the choice between working hard and slacking off. There are so many adventures that you miss because you're waiting to think of a plan. To find them, look for tiny, interesting choices. And remember that you are always making up the future as you go. Guest bailiff Monty Belmonte, please swear them in. Charlie, Brandon, please raise your right hands. Actually, raise your right thumbs. Like, do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and you won't believe what happens at 2 minutes and 48 seconds?

So help you Mark Zuckerberg or whatever? I do. I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling despite the fact that his Twitter avatar looks like he's about to smack down haters with a ukulele? I do.

I do. Thank you, Judge John Hodgman. Status update. What's on your mind? Guest bailiff Monty Belmonte coming to you live on digital audio tape from wrsi the river in massachusetts this is john hodgman coming to you live on audio tape from weru fm in blue hill maine we are reuniting what was once all and only Massachusetts for this Vacationland podcast. Nice to hear from you again, Monty. Uniting the whole Commonwealth. That's entirely

true. Of course, Maine was a part of Massachusetts until 1820, when the Missouri Compromise spat off two new states, Maine and guess what, Missouri, in order to prevent the Civil War from happening. Didn't work, but we got an extra two states out of it. And now here I am talking to my old friend from Massachusetts, Monty Belmonte, and also a couple of fighting weirdos that we're going to talk to in a minute. Monty, I almost did not understand your cultural reference when you started talking about thumbs up

and you won't believe what will happen. I thought you were maybe having a stroke. No, you know, you're more of a Twitter guy, and I'm more of a Facebook guy. I basically only am on Twitter to follow what you're up to. Yeah, which is not much these days because I am truly hiding out in

New England with very little internet. That's why I have to come to the great radio station WERU and talk to the great radio station WRSI because sometimes it turns out radio stations know what they're doing in terms of making non-visual entertainment. They're professionals as opposed to these Skype monsters like me. Now, Charlie and Brandon, I'm sorry, you've been standing up all this time. You may be seated. For an immediate summary judgment, you heard Monty Belmonti's confusing cultural reference.

Now it's time to see if you can identify mine. For an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors, can either you, Charlie, or you, Brandon, name for me the piece of culture that I was referencing as I entered the courtroom? I'm going to give you a hint. I don't know what it's from, but I know who said it. All I need to know is who said it. Charlie, you are the plaintiff. Sorry, Brandon. Charlie, you bring this case before my court, so you'll get the first crack at it. Can you name the person whom I was quoting? I think that's correct. Use of whom? We'll find out from the internet later. I, without any confidence, will guess Kurt Bonnegut. will guess Kurt Vonnegut.

Hmm. No. But that was the sound that I was making. That was the sound of a ball being hit in a ballpark, kind of. Brandon, can you name the person who was speaking that I was quoting? I cannot. I think it probably is Harry Carey.

No, it's not Harry Carey. Holy cow. Can I guess? Monty, it's rather unorthodox, but it is vacation. Let's do it. Is it Baz Luhrmann? No, it's not Baz Luhrmann.

I thought it was like that pithy advice that he gives in that graduation song that was really popular in the mid-90s. No, incorrect. The sunscreen thing. And an extra demerit to you, guest bailiff Monty Belmonte for stepping on the reveal that I know who I knew who Harry Carey was I knew to say

holy cow one of my rare moments of knowing what a sports person is talking about no you're both wrong um and I think that probably there was no chance of you getting it. Well, I don't know. Perhaps the person I was quoting was Randall Munroe. Now, Randall Munroe, if you don't know and you should, is a former NASA physicist turned web comic entrepreneur. And he runs a he is the creator of a very popular web comic called XKCD. He is the creator of a very popular webcomic called XKCD and the author of a book of scientific hypotheticals that is so charming and wonderful called What If. Now, if you don't know XKCD, you should go to XKCD.com. And you might even put a forward slash and then a number 386 to see perhaps his most famous comic from his series of web comics. This one is from 2008 and involves a single panel, as it often does, and stick figures drawn with a naive charm by Randall, I presume.

And it shows a person sitting at a computer. Some of the nerds already know this one because 386, that's the best one. And off screen or off panel, his partner, wife or husband or whoever it might be, says, are you coming to bed? And the person at the computer says, I can't. This is important. And the person off panel says, what is? And the computer user says, someone is wrong on the internet.

Also known as S-I-W-O-T-I, if you see that on various discussion boards and comment threads. It has now become a very well-known internet term to describe the pathology that you feel. And I'm not saying some, I'm saying you. I'm saying you, meaning all of universal humanity who uses the internet, that you feel when you see that someone has said something that is wrong and you are inclined and sometimes do stay up all night arguing with them to zero effective purpose, which is the subject of this very case. Is it not, Charlie?

Yes, Your Honor, you are correct. All right, Charlie, you are bringing your boyfriend, Brandon, to this court. Is that correct? Your boyfriend? Yes, sir. Of 2.5 years? That is also correct. All right.

So what does, how do, I know everything, Brandon. I know you like to talk without being asked questions. Sorry, Judge. Yeah. Well, you know what? You like to follow that advice of Randall Munroe. You like to take wrong turns and talk to strangers and open unmarked doors, both on the Internet and here. You want to have your say.

I get it. You're going to have your say. I get it. You're going to have your say. But first, we're going to talk to Charlie, your romantic partner of 2.5 years, who finds your habit of using the internet wrong. Is that correct? Yes, in this manner on Facebook. All right. So what's he doing? Or maybe I'll put it this way. What would you like me to order him not to do anymore? Well, to be fair to what I would like in my favor, I should probably introduce the core of the problem, if that is okay with the court. Sure.

Okay. Brandon keeps... Are you introducing the core of the problem? Well, I wouldn't be so presumptuous to say it's the crux. No, that's not my role. I would not dare do that. You're the core giver, and I'm the crux. No, that's not my role. I would not dare do that. You're the core giver and I'm the crux finder, right? Yes, sir.

All right, we're on it. Go. And I'm the key master. Very good, Monty. Good boy. My, I bring this case to the court because Brandon keeps intellectually challenging content he sees in his feed on Facebook. And I think that is not good netiquette. I admire him and how he challenges people like when we're together in real life on false logic and tries to right wrongs in a very kind way. But in the Facebook world, it makes me very uncomfortable. And I don't think that people can handle it.

We've said Facebook a number of times. So I'm just going to stipulate that we're going to talk about this particular social media service, even though normally we try not to mention it. Look, it's summertime. Who cares? You think Facebook cares one way or the other? What am I doing? Pooping all over Periscope because we're talking about Facebook right now? Everyone's getting a share of this action. So Brandon is confrontational in life and on the Internet. You don't care so much in life, but you do care on the Internet. How specifically is he confrontational on the Internet in a way that drives you bananas? bananas? Well, I mean, I think you've seen in the evidence that I've submitted, we have the full spectrum of people that we know on Facebook. We have very intelligent, prudent people in our feed. And we also have people with absolutely no filter and maybe should not ever post ever.

Yeah. And they know who they are, right? Well, they're listening to this and they're like, oh, I never knew. Well, let's just say I didn't tell anybody just in case. I kept this confidential just in case. Just to clarify, we'll look in more detail the evidence in a moment. But you're saying that Brandon gets into fights with people he knows on Facebook. Yes.

Over such issues as political views. You said false logic. What does that mean? Especially if someone's parroting a popular opinion without actually, you know, taking that internally, thinking it over for themselves, coming up with their own opinion. They will just, you know, just stamp it into their own profile and say, yes, I'm for this without really, even clearly they haven't really thought it through. Or if they have, I mean, it's sad if that's what they think.

I see what you're saying. I mean, it's sad. That's what they say. I see what you're saying. So, you know, I'm looking at the evidence that you sent in of a couple of comment threads after a couple of predictably banal and pointless Facebook posts. The sort of thing that makes me very glad I don't really use Facebook very often. Although you go to Facebook.com slash Hodgmania. It's a great community of Judge John Hodgman and General Hodgman fans. And I occasionally post over there.

But for the most part, we have one here that Brandon gotten into a fight over, I guess. The post is cops. It's a picture of some police officers booking some bicyclists with the caption, cops pull over and take a 26 bicyclists at once for running a stop sign. Share if you agree with the cops. And a number of people talking about, this is from June 9th, it looks like, maybe of this year, talking about how this is good because bicyclists should be held to the same standard as motorists and share the road properly and not run stop signs. And Brandon comes in and says, I'm not so sure. And then has some other things to say. And then there's another one, which is a picture of a woman in her underwear cooking something in a pan. And the misogynistic caption. This is what you want to see when you walk into the kitchen.

And somebody says, I think that's misogynist. And Brandon says, I'm not so sure or something. Just basically, I'm not so sure. Some other opinion. I don't really see what the logical fallacies are that he's correcting here. But basically, he's mixing it up on Facebook. And you would like him to stop for reasons that we'll explore. Is that correct? Yes, that is correct. And now Brandon, how old are you? Hi, judge. I am 34. That's great. 34 years old. And how old is Charlie? I'm she had plaintiff should answer

that question. i can get in trouble with that kind of stuff i am also 34 we are both 34 you're both 34 years old okay and you and you lived you live together right you cohabit you cohabitate but are not married correct okay and uh and you have occupations yes i'm in marketing. Okay. And Brandon? Objection, relevance. I'm just kidding. Overruled. Sorry. I like it, though.

Nice try. I just watch a lot of Law & Order. Okay, so I work in the engineering field in Bay Area, California. Okay. And so now I noticed from your original affidavit that you guys are now living in what you would call the Silicon Valley world. Is that, was that more or less accurate? The high tech Northern California world? Correct. Right. And, but you are from where originally, Charlie? We are both from the South. I was born and raised in Dallas, Texas.

I'm also from Texas 20 years 20 years in Texas yeah right before that I lived in like many other states in the southeast but the majority of my life in Texas

so I consider myself a Texan right and Texans are famous for their conciliatory nature and their their unlikelihood

to mix it up over a topic of dispute they're just like oh whatever you say that's i think that's the motto of texas isn't it monty yeah texas let's all get along yeah if you say so all right fair enough brandon you've heard that charlie would like me to order you to stop i guess posting on facebook or responding to people on Facebook. Is that right, Charlie? Yes. If you were to rule in my favor, I would like that he would just unfollow these unsavory persons and then he wouldn't have to be bothered by it.

Right. So Charlie wants you to unfollow these dum-dums that you're mixing it up with and to knock off this behavior. Why is that wrong, Brandon? You know, I'm an honest person and I just feel the need to be very transparent. I believe that Facebook exists for people to connect with each other in all sorts of ways. And I, in parallel, believe that people don't really govern themselves very well on the Internet, and they are very quick to impulsively post things that are maybe socially inappropriate, but very commonplace on the internet. I see an issue with that. I try to, you know, address anything that I see uniquely and respectfully. And I do not push these such issues. Like I don't bring them up. I don't, I'm not a troll and I don't seek out negativity or I don't seek out to promote divisive issues that you might

find in the news. But I do respond if it's presented to me sometimes. And I don't seek out to promote divisive issues that you might find in the news. But I do respond if it's presented to me sometimes. And I think that that's completely acceptable if there's an element of respect involved. I see value and accountability. Now, Charlie, in her initial letter to this court, suggested that you get riled up on Facebook several times a week. Does that sound about right? I mean, there is a judgment implied in riled up. Yeah, I think so. I guess so. Okay. And who submitted these two exemplars,

cops pull over and take a 26 bicyclists, and this is what you want to see when you walk into the kitchen. Who submitted these for my consideration? Was it you, Charlie? I did submit that, but I had, we had a mutual agreement over those pieces of evidence before submission. What, what, Brandon, what was it about these two that allowed you to agree? I'd be curious to see the ones she wanted to submit that you didn't agree to. Well, actually too. So it's kind of a of my own worst enemy and my own best asset. My degree of

honesty dictates for me that if she wanted to submit whatever she wanted, as long as it didn't, you know, call out specific people's names or say anything negative about my family, then I would be okay with any of the things she wanted to submit. So you responded to cops stopping bicyclists by saying maybe the cops are not prioritizing correctly? Yeah. I mean, what the story was is it was like these group of bicyclists recreationally going through a neighborhood ran a residential stop sign, and a cop pulled them over and wrote each one of them like a $5 ticket, okay? So my issue with that at that time, that was, I can see why you would get very upset. Exactly. I don't even

know why we're here. So, so the thing is what happened, like maybe the weekend before or a week before we were, our kids were eating dinner and through a maybe 10 feet away plate glass window or sliding glass window was a car parked in front of our house, in front of our home with these really creepy guys. Looked like they were going to do some sort of drug deal. They were just hanging out there for hours. Like the car doors open, the car's full of garbage. It was creepy enough. I never called the police. We called the police and we said, Hey, we, you know, we really think something weird's going on out here. We got a couple of kids under 10 years old. Can you come

and take a look? They said they could be there in four hours. You saw some creeps. You called the cops. Nothing happened. And you're mad that they took a bicyclist. It wasn't that nothing happened. I'm glad nothing happened. Why did you call the police then? We called the police.

Hey, man, plaintiff agreed with me. This is not... I did agree. I thought they were a threat to our home. I called the city. We are in a big city. I called and I was like, hey, guys, can you just come by? And they were like, sorry, it'll be four hours. Four hours. So this is what he's using for.

So then when I find out that the guy's like, yeah, we did a crackdown on the bicyclists in the suburbs in a residential neighborhood. Those guys are ruining America. I say maybe not. I say there are more important things for the cops to do. And that's why I disagree. There you go.

Is this the same? I can't believe I'm getting drawn into this Internet argument. Exactly. Is this the same? I can't believe I'm getting drawn into this internet argument. Exactly. Is this the same? Is this the same police force, police department? I would assume so, based on the... Because bicyclists were in a suburb. You're in what city?

San Jose. In San Jose. I'm sure there are many police officers in San Jose who listen to this podcast. Thank you for your service, gentlemen and women. Right. And they do a great job. But I'm saying, like, as they have prioritized, you know, they are doing extremely important things. And writing a $5 ticket to a bunch of people who are just going to get irritated and it's not going to change their behavior,'s a silly thing to like promote and be like yeah you know and this is this is a big deal i guess it's

absolutely not a big deal that's why the tickets are five dollars so that was my only point there but i was respectful about it so you're saying so you're saying so first of all you're saying that the police uh did not prioritize correctly because they did this one thing that was not the specific thing you asked them to do, which was to respond promptly to a non-crime that was not happening outside your house. That's correct. Right. Okay. That is obviously yours to express, but you expressed it specifically in reaction to other people saying, I'm glad the police did this thing, which was ticket these bicyclists, because these are probably anti-bike motorists, right? Who hate bikes for cutting them off all the time and whatever. And they're a bunch of creeps themselves, right?

Now, what were you hoping to gain? I mean, other than venting, were you hoping to gain something here? That's what I'm trying to understand. What was I hoping to gain? When I communicate something like that, I would like to open somebody's mind because in my interpretation at that time of that post was the inspiration was, and I don't know this. I didn't go into that person and validate it from them. But it was that they're drilling down on a non-issue. Even though nothing happened in front of my house,

that presented a substantial degree of danger. And I should say something else. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Are you guys sending these Facebook posts to the police department or to the internal affairs or to your city government or to the ombudsman of the newspaper? No, I just accept. Let me ask you a question. You're venting your frustration that the police did not come to your house to respond to a non-crime. And these people are venting their frustration that bicyclists don't stop at

stop signs. What makes your frustration more meaningful than their frustration? I guess it doesn't, you know, and I don't really claim that it does. Brandon, let's move on to the next post. Yes, this is the one that is a picture. Well, why don't you describe what's happening here and what you felt you needed to say? Why don't you describe it, what's happening here and what you felt you needed to say? Judge, pictured in the Facebook post is a female. She's not wearing pants.

She's wearing a shirt and she's cooking. So like no pants and cooking. And the caption says, this is what you want to see when you walk into the kitchen. That's gross. Yeah. So that's what somebody posted also also she's a woman it's a woman yeah yeah i don't i don't i don't like the i don't like personally like the use of the word female as a noun like describing a woman it's very either it's it's it's pretending to be respectful but it ends up coming off differently i'm not suggesting

that you were doing this brandon but to me it's you often hear it lots of times with regard to law enforcement two females were walking it's like two women just say women that's anyway that's just me all right so so so you see this thing and comments. And can you characterize the comments and then characterize your reply? Yeah. I mean, the person that posted this has, you know, he's, of course, on Facebook. His girlfriend is on Facebook. And family members are on Facebook surrounding this couple. So some of the comments say, ha, ha, ha, and they're jokey and that kind of thing.

But then there's one from his girlfriend's cousin uh and the cousin is like i can't believe you're being so disrespectful you should be you know treating uh my cousin like a queen and you know so on and so forth and then uh he responds kind of like like having to like in a comment, correct everything, but just says, I treat her like a queen, you know, let's take this offline if you want to talk to me kind of a thing. All right. So the two cousins are getting into a fight and you know, these, these people.

Yeah. And so you weighed in and you say what? I, I just, I tried to be kid gloves in my response and I just said, I'm sure I got to read it. I'm sure everyone posting comments here is a good person. I don't know all of you very well, but I think this is a good reminder that the things that we post online do indeed have a large audience. And anyone who posts should consider their audience, especially if posting material that could be offensive. And then what happened?

Everyone said, oh, thank God you're here. The guy was like, thanks for not. He said, like, I appreciate the way you handled that. You didn't make me feel like a bad person. And I agree. Which the first guy, the guy who posted the picture. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he is.

He is a bad person. Yeah. That picture is disgusting. May I, Your Honor, may I interject? Yes, Charlie. So this post was the basis of me unfollowing this person. And because he's a mutual friend circle, I was just like this, I hate him now. And so I just unfollowed him.

And that was that. And now I don't have to see anything. Let me say, this is a lapse of judgment, for sure. I'm not going to say that this person is a bad person, but I wouldn't have posted that personally. And I don't think you would have either, Brandon, right? Correct. but say, hey, we're all good people. Why were you trying to make peace with this image that I find offensive? And maybe you do or maybe you don't. Because I believe that when people are in a physical social situation, so if I was to be standing in front of you right now, I would know,

and we were just meeting at like a social gathering, you and I would know what topics to broach with each other. We wouldn't come in and talk about what we want women to do or, you know, that kind of stuff. Regardless of the end of the day, what you believe is not appropriate, even if it's a good opinion, let's call it, if there's such thing as a good opinion, right? There's opinions. Sure. There is mine. And you know, we would, we would not talk about that stuff. We would not talk about politics or religion or, or whatever. But you know, I think that people are, they don't govern themselves the same way online and they, they do things without thinking about it.

They're almost like mental children online and they do things without thinking about it. And so I feel, they accidentally express how they really feel. Inappropriately in the wrong setting with the wrong message to the wrong audience. If they were. Go ahead. Sorry. I mean, yeah, it's like you would prefer that they keep their misogyny secret.

I would. What's interesting about Brandon is that and I don't think I've ever encountered one before, he is not a troll, right? No, he's not. And nor is he out there to mix it up on the internet. He's not throwing bombs. He's an internet conciliator, which is something I've never, I think, experienced before. And yet this behavior, as you wrote in the petition to this court, makes you pull your face. I don't know what that means.

What? So please explain what pull your face means. Like the scream, like Edward Monk, you know, the famous painting, like, ah! Sure. That's what I do. The famous painting, The Scream, which is parodied in the poster for the TV show Married, which premieres its second season on July 17th, starring Nat Faxon, Judy Greer, Brett Gelman, Sarah Burns, and yours truly, John Hodgman.

Can't wait. That was a good segue, right? Yes. So by pull your face, you mean touch your face in anguish. Why does this bother you so much that he's doing this? Because not only does it take place online, and it would be really great if it was all packaged, but then, you know, I love him and we share our lives together. And so when this happens, it then becomes an hour long discussion about, oh, my God, this happened.

And can you believe it? Don't you agree with me? And then we unpack it. And I don't, I don't, I don't want that. I want it to stay on the internet. And if, if it's aggravating, I want to just close, close the lid. Are you saying that Brandon gets aggravated to the point that he has to bring it up with you later on? Yes. Okay. Was this a specific example? This, this, this image of the woman cooking? This was one of them, sure. It lived on, how long did it live on in your life well as the comments get coming and then mutual friends noticed and then it was a topic of discussion with me and uh or between you know

third parties people saying what kinds of things were people saying to you well of course all the my uh women friends were like cheering his name for for you know moderating it i guess it's not really but you know whatever his the gesture that there was some sanity put in there but i i don't i don't think this person the original poster he's going to continue to be an idiot but it's not going to change anything and can you can you point to a time when your internet conciliation, I think that's a word, like actually fixed something? Has there been a time when someone was wrong on the internet and you made them say, oh, you know what? I was wrong. Thank you for tone policing me.

Sorry. Sorry, Judge. I don't, I can't. It was a rhetorical question obviously the answer is no yeah thank you i mean but so i guess i guess what i'm asking is what what do you get out of this since we know that it is highly unlikely precisely because of the nature of the internet that it is unpoliced, that it is anonymous, that it allows people to express stuff that they might not express face to face. And it perhaps undermines their judgment in that way, right? And all this stuff is going to come out and disagreements will

bubble up and people will fight for its own sake and so on. Given that all of this is going to happen, this is a tide that you probably can't turn back with a few conciliatory or maybe a thousand conciliatory posts on Facebook. Still, you get something out of it. Can you tell me what you get out of it that is separate from whatever effectiveness you think it may or may not have? Yes, absolutely, Judge. So there's two things I get out of it. The first thing is I think we all want to be heard sometimes. If you are mentally intrigued by an issue and you want to feel like you've communicated something and that you've been heard, that's one thing.

Just to playfully engage. I like to have playful debates. Plaintiff does not like to have that. So, you know, it is what it is. Number two is I actually care about the guy that posted that. You know, I think that I don't think that he's there's been a lot of words said. I'm not here in judgment of the court. That would not be my disposition as the defendant. I think that the guy who posted that is probably a good guy. And he just made a stupid mistake. And having made stupid mistakes in the past, I think that it,

it behooves me or it is a good thing to show accountability in a respectful way. And maybe, maybe that poster will take that into consideration. Maybe they will not. But either way, I feel like I'm fighting a good effort of non passive aggressive, you know, reality. It's like how I would respond if I was speaking to the guy, you know? Does that make sense? It does. Charlie.

Yes, you're on. Do you shy away from playful debate? Oh, yes. Why? It's very stressful for me. It creates a lot of anxiety. Unless it's really like a – I don't feel like my intellect is up – is being judged. I don't – that makes me really uncomfortable.

So I – Do you feel that your intellect is being judged? Well, yeah, in debate. I hate debate for that reason because I feel like if I lose, then I am less than. Like it's worse than just losing at a sport because, well, whatever, it's a game. But if I lose in debate, then I'm dumb. So may I presume that your interactions online primarily are if you say something nice or you say nothing at all? That's correct.

Right. And I'm a little fuzzy still on what blowback Brandon's behavior has on your actual everyday life. On my everyday life? Well, may I bring up yesterday? I don't even remember what happened I will allow it I want to hear about yesterday at the end of the day

depending on your frequency of Facebook feed checking you have like a mental digest or not I don't I glance and if it's something irritating I just it's gone but yesterday there were at least three things that were completely uh inflammatory that were at least posted once

or twice in our our feed because we share share a friend group for the most part and and then it became an hour of like essentially he's not really debating because we agree, which I think is also kind of funny because I'll just be like, yes, I agree. Your opinions are true and right. And then I guess. Brandon's are, you mean? Yeah. I mean, we make a great couple because, yeah, we do generally agree on things. But my what we disagree at is how much it sinks in and affects our stress level in our real life.

Well, it doesn't affect Brandon's stress level at all. Does it, Brandon? It depends. Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't. What's the one that got you most stressed out? Well, I believe that would probably be one where it kind of got out of hand. I mean, I'm not a perfect person.

So, I mean, every now and then, and I would say a frequency level. No, I know that. Look, I know you're basically a good guy. You're not a perfect person. Every now and then you fall asleep and accidentally post misogynistic pictures, right? Yeah. No, I know you don't do that. That's your friend

yeah but what happened what's the one that really got out of hand why i don't know why we wasted time with these other ones yeah oh man so i know why we wasted time was it because you wanted to pretend that this other one didn't happen now i really want to hear it well i told i told her last night i was like you know you that's probably your best example. So you should bring it up third. We didn't have pictures of it for reasons I will tell you. Now, before we get to the crux that I just found, thank you. This is a family-friendly podcast. Absolutely.

All right. Go ahead. Totally agree, Judge. I'm picturing, like, the jury being like a bunch of little kids. So I guess we don't have this. This isn't one of the courts. It is, Judge. I'm picturing, like, the jury being, like, a bunch of little kids. So I guess we don't have this. This isn't one of the courts. It is, actually. What no one has ever, what I've never revealed is that for every time I do this podcast, I impanel 12 12-year-olds.

And they never say anything. And they actually have no formal role in the court. But they're here. And they're doing and they're doing their their honest civic duty 12 angry 12s 12 angry 12 year olds all right okay that that bush has been beaten around enough what is it what is the one that got out of hand there was a family member do you guys remember the? It was a news story a couple months ago. And I would say of the blowed up issues that maybe once a year or really once ever, that was not maybe a couple of my entire life, Facebook life, which admittedly Facebook has not been around that long. So the issue was, do you remember the news story that was like the Indiana law that said, I don't like the businesses don't have to do that.

Do you have to make cakes? You don't have to make you don't have to make cakes for people who are homosexuals or whatever. Very controversial state ruling that suggested that people could opt out of treating other people's as equal civil rights holders. Exactly. So I had a family member who is approximately my age, and he's still there. I still have a family member. But this person, he posted. Let me guess.

He said something. What did he say? He said, first he said, he started out with, if you choose to be gay. That was the first half of the sentence of a big brick of garbage. Okay? So he posed, that was the beginning, and then it was basically

copy-paste, like, kind of a Sean Hannity type rant about how America is going. You still have family in Texas. I get it. That was the... How did it get out of hand? Well, I posted something, and I kind of didn't handle it well.

And when I say kind of, I mean I really didn't handle it well. I said something along the lines of— You said something other than, hey, why can't we just all get along on Facebook? Yeah. You actually expressed an opinion. I felt like I responded equally, which is not great. I didn't just like, I wasn't just like a troll. I kind of attempted, but I failed. Like I attempted to be like, hey, this is what happened with me. So like a few years ago, I was really mean to one of my closest friends on Facebook,

and I really regret it, you know, because he came to me and he was really hurt, you know. So what I posted was something to that effect. I was like, hey, you know, I kind of decided not to be a expletive deleted on Facebook. Maybe you should consider that as well. And then he responded he was very upset. So he did not like that I suggested that he was acting like an expletive deleted. And then it got really bad from there. You know, I accused him of being a half wit, which is funny.

I think that's the most literary I get is calling somebody a half wit. And I might have been in a comic book or something. And then so I log off Facebook, totally frustrated. Charlie is like, you should not have even gone there. And then the relatives parent begins sending me a bunch of direct messages, very upset that her child had been publicly shamed in the way that I had publicly shamed.

Well, yeah, poor him. All he did was, all he did was, was, publicly shamed in the way that I had publicly shamed. Well, yeah. Poor him. Yeah. All he did was, all he did was, was, uh,

was write down his toxic thoughts in a public forum. Exactly. Thank you. Thank you. He shamed himself. Thank you. Yeah. But why didn't you just,

why didn't you just not respond? Why didn't you just realize, oh, this guy. It was a mistake. I mean this guy? It was a mistake. I mean, I think it was a mistake. I'm not suggesting it was a mistake or not. I'm just saying, what prevents you from turning this off?

This service off? Okay, because he's wrong. You know what you said at the beginning. Someone on the internet is wrong. Charlie? Yes, Your Honor? Can't you turn off Facebook in your life? I do often.

Can't you let him? I mean, why don't you stop feeding this troll of a husband you have? And not respond and not look at the stuff that he's doing? Well, I usually, in all truth, I don't track what he does. You say that silly, pointless debate drives you crazy. That's the internet. Well, you know, I have a curated feed of things that don't irritate me. Of flowers and niceness and cat videos and stuff.

videos and stuff. I admit that there are times because like you said, we have family with vastly different viewpoints of us. And I think a lot of maybe our generation and our side of the political issue do as well. And everyone has to deal with these persons. And if I see see it i either unfollow or i close the tab and i think about something else but i think it because of who he is he has this very strong character and he he wants he fights for good he fights for good and justice and i know it eats at him uh because he cares but at the same time i think it comes at a cost of his sanity and can sometimes dominate our conversations that could otherwise be about less stressful things like what what would you rather talk about i don't know new ways to cook potatoes i don't know something really non-controversial i mean i'm actually objection okay go ahead Go ahead. No, I just... Oh.

Well, you know... I understand. Brandon, one quick question. Sir? Are you a member of Gamergate? What? Okay, good. I think I've heard everything that I need to in order to render my decision. I'm going to go into my virtual chambers in second life and thus ensure total solitude for me.

And I will come back in a moment to make my decision. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Charlie, the plaintiff, keep referring to our feed on Facebook. Do you have a shared Facebook account? No, no, no, no. No, that's gross. No. Yeah, that is gross. I totally judge people for that. No, it's just that

we have a lot of common, you know, we're friends with each other's families. Why don't you just... Go ahead. Just block him on Facebook and just talk to him in real life. Oh, no, I couldn't. You bring up a good point, but I couldn't. I'm still a little curious. I guess I kind of like to watch the train wreck

sometimes. Yeah, but isn't the beauty of social media that you can make these snarky, whiny, like self-righteous indignation comments without consequence or like intervention from your, comments without consequence or like intervention from your you know life partner well i i don't i only post nice niceness that all can share in and so and you could go into your blissful cocoon of of uh status updates that's true without him can i respond to that yes absolutely brandon the defendant if she did that I would just reiterate everything to her later. In real life. Yeah. I mean, not because she doesn't want to. She usually agrees with me. If we bring up a point, she's like, yeah, that's right. But then she might not see the Facebook fallout from your campaigns here.

That's true. campaigns here now that's true brendan do you think that charlie's silence on this stuff makes her complicit in this sexism and homophobia that you're observing on your facebook status feed absolutely uh to quote a appear uh judge joe brown you're either part of the problem or you're part of the solution that's judge joe brown he's on tv well judge john hodgman is just a hop skip and a jump away from being on tv i believe it you're you don't sound like an angry white guy ranting on facebook brandon this sounds like first amendment you're trying to use social media as in its highest form as the new sort of town hall or uh you know a town square where we could have these kind of dialogues together.

You're like coach Eric Taylor from Friday night lights and you're from Texas, Texas forever. I would say as a cautionary tale, you know, sometimes it's good to write the email, not always good to send it. True. Just if you're trying to, you're trying to make peace all right well that's that's my bailiff uh probably uncalled for uh guest bailiff advice we'll be back in a moment with judge john hodgman's decision hello i'm your judge john hodgman the The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org. And they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh boy, that would be fantastic. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning,

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I've been checking the chat room on this one, you guys, and things are getting out of hand. Really? No, there's no chat room. This isn't live. I've been checking the chat room in my head as people are winding each other up.

Different sides of my personality are flame warring each other as I try to figure out what to say. So I found this crux, you guys. It was lying around and I found it. And I found it. The issue here is not solely Brandon's behavior on the internet and how it makes Charlie anxious and either does or does not distract Brandon from IRL in real life and stress him out too. It is also obviously an issue, I think it's come up again and again, of culture. You guys have left Texas, and you are now in Silicon Valley, which is a profoundly different political culture. And you, I think also uh tend to be more uh socially liberal based on the conversations that we've had than some of the people who are in your facebook life and uh and you keep these people in your facebook life uh as far as i can gather because they are old friends uh or uh relations uh there are people you care about and that you love. And when they express

views, uh, we'll set aside the bicycling one because that doesn't fit into my theory, but we'll set that one aside for a minute. But when these people in your lives express views that sort of take you aback, uh, whether they are, uh are sort of, you know, casual juvenile misogyny, or, you know, out and out, sort of anti gay sentiments, you feel a double pain. One, you feel the pain of someone expressing something that you don't agree with, which is always frustrating, especially if you feel passionately about a subject. And two, you're feeling expressed by people that you have connection to and care about, right?

Like, I don't get the sense, Brandon, that you're writing letters to the editor all day long because someone was wrong in the newspaper, right? Someone was wrong in your circle of curated Facebook friends, some of whom, you know, still have an emotional hold on you. And and and that that is an anxiety and a conundrum that drives you to action because it adds an extra level of uncomfort and confusion and drives Charlie to inaction. That is to say, I don't want to know anything about this. Let's talk about new ways to make potatoes. Let's keep it all civil.

And this comes up whether you are on Facebook or whether you are sitting around the table at Thanksgiving, what I like to call the Facebook of holidays, when all of a sudden a little too much red wine flows and everyone's got to voice how much they hate Obama or whatever it is that divides your family. And then you have to make a choice of whether you're just going to eat these potatoes and say, well, I can't believe you found a new way to make potatoes or say, I'm putting down my potato fork now because I need to express myself even at the risk of there being conflict. That's what I think what charges this up. And, you know, here's what I have to say. Your friend is someone that you love. your friend is someone that you love. The guy who, I presume it's a guy who posted that picture of the woman cooking. What he posted was kind of creepy.

It's not the, you know, it's, and you're saying he made a mistake. And I'm saying what I believe is true is that he has bad taste and bad judgment. right? I'm not saying he's a monster, but he has a set of what he thinks is funny that is not in tune with thinking that women are full human beings. And that is worth commenting on, in my opinion. You commented on it by saying, hey, watch out, you're putting something in a public forum, and it might redound badly on you. Sort of sidestepping the substance of what he's putting out there. Similarly, with your other friend, or I guess family member,

or whoever it was, who started out by saying, if you choose to be gay which automatically tells you exactly what he's going to say for the next 5 000 lines and maybe 500 years if he achieves immortality you know you start out by saying hey you should watch how watch what you say and how you say it out here and that's not expressing your opinion, right? That's, that's sidestepping your opinion. You feel like you want to say something, but you frankly, I think are just afraid to say what's on your mind. So you tone police, as they say on the SJW boards, you talk about how other people are talking instead of talking about what they're saying. And this I think is the other crux, about what they're saying. And this I think is the other crux,

two cruxes, you guys double crux, you know, because you are, you are mixing it up online, but you're not, except with the example of the bicyclists being, not being the problem, the creepy dudes out your house being the problem in these two cases that I think are more important. Uh, you're not saying what's on your mind. You're trying to make everyone nice. And the truth is you're entitled to your opinion and they're entitled to their opinion. And they, as you pointed out, put it out there. It's that it's not like anyone forced them to say anti-gay stuff or to post gross stuff. And if you feel, if you feel your opinion is different and you are moved to express it, you are free to express it.

Now, Monty is right. You don't always have to. It might be more productive to just say, I'm just going to go on with my life on this one. This guy's out to breakfast. It's a new saying I just made up. I love it. Where I think you're going wrong is by not expressing your opinion, but saying something anyway, trying to have it both ways, trying to say you're wrong. But it's really the way you're saying it that's wrong.

Or you should watch yourself because there are people out here watching. And then what happens is the person with the original opinion defends himself. And then you start you then it gets out of hand. You start calling people halfwits and you get into a big fight. Right. Then it gets out of hand and you start calling people halfwits and you get into a big fight, right? So, I think that the solution is not to get offline altogether or to start turning things off. But instead, to be less cowardly. If you feel strongly an opinion, because the truth is, there's more to life than just new ways to make potatoes.

And people are expressing political opinions, cultural opinions, social opinions, and they have their right to do that. And there is a comment thread. And if you feel moved, you have a right to say what's on your mind. But the way I would encourage you in the future going forward, Brandon, is to simply say what's on your mind. But the way I would encourage you in the future going forward, Brandon, is to simply say what's on your mind. You said, I think what you said to him is, don't be a jerk on Facebook. It's not about being a jerk on Facebook. It's just being a jerk. Just say, instead, hey, I love you, but I really disagree with you on this matter. Period. Then don't look again.

Then you've got your say in, and maybe the impossible will happen. Maybe that person will say, I wonder if there is some reason to think differently or have a second thought. You can even be more specific and say, I don't think that homosexuality is a choice. And here's why I think this isn't such a great idea, but this, this is my opinion given to you respectfully. Then you're just saying your thing and then you jump out and let anyone else flame war about it.

Do you know what I'm saying? So I think that that would reduce, I mean the fact of the matter is that the stress of this cultural shift that is – or this cultural chasm that exists in your Facebook world, you can alleviate it in two ways. One, turn it off and forget about it and go on with your life up there in Northern California and just ignore what everyone else is saying. And I bet you'd have a very happy life if you just looked at each other and your love and the life around you and not care about what people are saying on the internet. But if you are going to stay in touch with your friends and your family and the world in this way, and you have opinions that you need to express, just opinionize. Say what's really on

your mind, get out, and leave it at that. Because, I mean, there's no way, because your cousins and your friends and your people in your life, they have a right to their opinion. You have an equal right to your opinion and a right to express it. So I can't find in favor of the plaintiff, I'm sorry, Charlie, I can't order someone to not talk on the internet if that's what they feel like doing, because that is a matter of free speech. But I will warn Brandon, as I find in his favor, to A, express your opinion succinctly and make sure it is your opinion and you're not covering it up for it with a bunch of niceness, don't tone police. And B, remember this quote from Randall Monroe, from the creator of XKCD. I can't remember where I heard this, but someone once said that

defending a position by citing free speech is sort of the ultimate concession. You're saying that the most compelling thing you can say for your position is that it's not literally illegal to express it. Ponder on that deep one, you guys. Enjoy the Internet. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Charlie.

Yes. Are you happy with Judge John Hodgman's warning rather than ruling in your favor? I my mouth is agape. I when he said that, I was like, oh, no, he's throwing gasoline on a fire. It's going to get worse. But towards the conclusion, I there's peace in my heart over the decision. Because you could take it as the gasoline on the fire thing in the sense that it's kind of like the judge has said, Brandon, you know, go for broke. Yeah, let her rip. When you're going to comment on Facebook rather than tone police, which I would say, Brandon sounds very

kind of, you know, amicable and peace loving in the way that you've handled these things. Oh, he can he can let her rip. We have not heard any examples, he can let it rip. Yeah. We have not heard any examples of him really letting it rip. If half wit is his greatest crime on social media, while he's standing up to misogynists and homophobes, I would say Brandon falls

into the hero category. Guest bailiff, I have to jump in and just say I am not saying, Brandon, that you should let it rip. I'm just saying you shouldn't hide your opinion behind geniality and instead figure out what your opinion is, say it as thoughtfully and respectfully as possible, and then get out. Tiptoe in, tiptoe out like a Facebook cat burglar. Say it with love and determination. And don't attack people.

Go ahead. And don't call people names. Now you say. I was going to say, I mean, like I mentioned before, he is from Texas, and with the tough love and real love of Coach Eric Taylor from Friday Night Lights, that's what he did really well. You know, he could lay into tim riggins but you left that conversation feeling like wow i'm a

better person from both listening to your advice and listening to the way you gave that advice so that's all you know i would say if you want you can record this and then you can just post an audio response to any of these people just and this is what it's going to be can record this and then you can just post an audio response to any of these people just and this is what it's going to be just record this the stars at night are big and bright don't hate on gays or women i love it all right we gotta go we gotta go guys okay thank you so much for being a part of the podcast. Thank you. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson,

John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace, because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I-R. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try.

Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh, then you're on the go. regularly put out a call for submissions. If you have a case for the judge, submit it at www.maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho. I've been your guest bailiff, Monty Belmonte. I'm your judge, John Hodgman. And I should say that people are occasionally right on the internet.

And on this subject, we did get an email from Kurt after he listened to our recent episode and Alchemic Clark borrowed delight, pointing out that I was wrong. Elliot Gould played Philip Marlowe in The Long Goodbye, not Sam Spade. So we will always acknowledge your corrections when you write in, although I will say for now and forever after, a hot dog is not a sandwich. And we will also review your cases and disputes

for the internet air. If you send them to hodgman at maximumfund.org or navigate to maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho, you'll find a form there. All your disputes are sent to me. I review them all. No case too small. No case too big. Some cases too medium.

You can follow me on Twitter at at Hodgman. You can follow Jesse Thorne, our regular bailiff, at at Jesse Thorne. Monty Belmonte is on Twitter but doesn't use it that much. You can follow him on Facebook at what, Monty? Monty Belmonte is on Twitter, but doesn't use it that much. You can follow him on Facebook at what? Monty Monty Belmonte. While you're over there at Facebook, why don't you check out the judge John Hodgman Facebook group, as well as the maximum fun.org on Facebook group,

where a lot of people are having great discussions and not yelling at each other. And they'd be real decent to each other. And it's a nice thing to do. I heard one person called someone a half wit, but that was it. I heard I, they're mainly just calling each other full wits a nice thing to do. I heard one person called someone a half-wit, but that was it. They're mainly just calling each other full-wits because they like it.

Right. Yeah. Monty, who produced this episode? Julia Smith produces the show. Mark McConville, who I got to meet IRL at the Wilco Solid Sound Festival, is our editor. And I am here IRL in Blue Hill, Maine

at the studios of WERU-FM where Joel Mann once again took over the summer engineering duties for me, John Hodgman. Thank you, Joel. You can find out all of my upcoming appearances. There are lots of them that have just been announced over at johnhodgman.com slash tour. And then it just falls to guest bailiff Monty Belmonte to say. Thanks for joining us for the Judge John Hodgman podcast. A hot dog is not a sandwich. Maximumfun.org

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