Judge John Hodgman - Unreasonable Scorch and Leisure

Episode Date: August 22, 2014

Steffen protests: too many pool parties!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm your guest bailiff, Monty Belmonte from 93.9 The River, WRSI in Northampton, Massachusetts, in for Jesse Thorne. This week, unreasonable scorch and leisure. Stephan brings the case against his dad, Brian. Stephan enjoys spending time with his family, but says too much of their together time is based around pool parties. Stefan doesn't care for swimming or laying out and wants the family to do more indoor activities together. Brian says pool time is a great way for the family to bond. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Oh, yeah. Bloody hell.

I'm sweating in here. Roasting. Boiling. Baking. Sweltering. It's like a sauna. Furnace. I can fry an egg on my stomach.

Ugh. Who wouldn't lap this up? It's ridiculous. Tremendous. Fantastic. Fan-dabby-dozy-pie-hole-tastic. All right. Guess bail if Monty Belmonte swear them in

Stefan and Brian Please rise and raise your right hands Do you swear to shower before entering the pool? I do Always No horseplay, no diving, no glass containers? I'm not quite sure about the Glass containers part, but yes.

Okay, well, we'll let that one slide for now. Do you swear to abide by lifeguard John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that there is a mysterious red cloud in the water surrounding him? I do. Thank you. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Brian and Stephan, you may be seated. Hello, guest bailiff Monty Belmonte.

Hello, Judge John Hodgman. Welcome back to summer, friends. Summertime. We had Jesse Thorne in via electronic communication last week, and then we started out, Monty, this summer, you and I, in the studios of WRSI. in the studios of WRSI. Then I parted ways and went north to New England, where I'm speaking to you now from the studios of WERU, 899 Blue Hill, Maine. We aired those episodes out of order, and now we're back again.

Everyone's confused. Everyone's disoriented. Too much, you know, too many adult beverages in glass containers by the pool, if you know what I mean. But who cares? It's summer, right, Monty? I think it's great. That's what's nice about podcasts. They can be any time you want them to be.

That's exactly right. So when you guys listen to this in the dead of winter, in the dead of the endless, fimble winter that's going to start next year, that will launch the final Ragnarok that will be the end of the world, you can remember this time when Monty and I said goodbye to summer and hello to Brian and Stefan. Oh, hi, guys. I forgot about you. Brian and Stefan, hello. Hello.

So for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors, can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom? Remember when I was saying all those creepy words? That's a quote from something. Do you know what it was a quote from? Stefan? No, I have absolutely no idea. No idea. What about you, Brian?

Once again, I'm clueless. all right now brian you're stefan's dad right yes all right and stefan have you ever seen a movie yes once or twice yeah i'm not even gonna ask the dad because he's not seeing movies he's sitting out by the pool enjoying his life you're the nerd wants to avoid being in the pool did you ever see the movie sexy beast starring ray winstone and ben kingsley um i'm afraid that may be a little bit outside of my generation no it's not came out in 2000 how old are you i'm 22 i turned 23 saturday oh yeah you would have been a child you would have been a child. You would have been a child. Quick. Your mind is sharp and young.

What's 23 minus 14? Nine. Nine. You would have been nine. You would have been not, you would have been nine years old when sexy beast came out in the theaters. Yes, sir.

Is that what you're saying to me in my courtroom? Yes, your honor. I find in favor of your father. This is the sound of a gavel. Thank you. Have a good summer, you guys. Nine years old.

Good heavens. I don't like that. I don't like math. But you are of an age now when you could enjoy the great British heist film Sexy Beast starring Ray Winstone and Ben Kingsley,

my co-star in the upcoming feature film, Learning to Drive, in which I play uncredited car salesman. Do I make the sale? Do I sell the car? You have to watch the film to find out. It's also starring Patricia Clarkson and Samantha Bee and directed by isabel couchette premiering september at the toronto international film festival and then in selected cities in october ben kingsley and i shared a scene monty did you sell a car to gandhi you're gonna have

to go to the movies and find out i love sexy Sexy Beast, and he's amazing in that film. He is an amazing, you know what he is? He's an amazing actor. He totally is. And that monologue, though, was delivered by Ray Winstone at the beginning of the film, which takes place quite a bit on the Spanish coast, where the former bank robber Ray Winstone has gone into retirement, and he is sunbathing, and it is an internal monologue,

as you look at his big, bloated, white, shiny belly baking in the sun. The sexy beast itself. By the pool. That sounds familiar. Which is exactly what Stefan wants to avoid in these waning days of summer. Is that not correct, Stefan? Yes, sir. That is the case, Your Honor. All right. So what's your beef with Dad?

To put it as concisely and as succinctly as I can. I said to put this concisely twice, so let's throw concisely out the window. Okay. So to put this as succely twice so we can throw concisely out the window okay so to put this as succinctly as i can um no no let's just let's just acknowledge just begin saying what you want to say and then you'll have to be that much closer thank you thank you thank you very much monty channel channeling the ghost of uh eb white uh a resident of this area of Maine. He was when he was alive. Now just this ghost is. The ghost of E.B. White is haunting Brooklyn, Maine. And the ghost of Charlotte lurks at a corner somewhere.

Blue Hill Fair is coming right up, Monty. This weekend, end of summer, Blue Hill Fair. That's where that all went down. That crazy cobweb writing creepy stuff happens up here in Maine. That's why Stephen King writes about it it that's so unfair all right anyway we don't have the ghost of eb white here to uh to tell you to just say what needs to be said and cut out all the other stuff so just say it i feel as though my father um puts undue pressure upon me and uh belittles me when he encourages, what he would call encourages me to participate in outdoor aquatic activities. Your dad likes to hang around by the pool, and you don't like to hang around by the pool.

That is correct. See how I did that? That was so concise. Much easier. And succinct. And why don't you want to hang around by the pool, Stefan? So we live in Georgia, southern Georgia, so central Georgia. And, you know, it is unduly hot here.

I don't particularly enjoy the activity of swimming. I find it to be rather boring and just unnecessary. I can swim. I don't have a problem swimming, but I don't enjoy it. And so I prefer not to. At that point, I enjoy spending time with my family, but I just don't enjoy it. And you guys live together? You live at home? No. So I live about 20 minutes away from my father. And we do spend quite a bit of time together, Your Honor.

So Brian the dad, how old are you, sir? 46. 46 years old. All right. And, Stephan, do you have any other siblings? Yes, I have a younger sister who is four years younger than me, so 19. And where is she in the world? She currently lives with my parents.

All right. So you live 20 minutes away from your dad's house. During the summertime, Brian likes to have a pool party. He wants you to come over and swim in the pool. You don't want to do it. Is that right? That's correct. Boom.

EB White says that's the element of my style. Concise. And you say because you don't like swimming, but when you filed your initial brief, did you not say that the reason you didn't want to go swimming is because you're a nerd? Yes, that is the case, Your Honor. You work in the Internet Technology Department. Yes. Information Technology? Yes.

Right, that's what IT stands for? I had forgotten what IT stood for. Hmm. You work in the IT Department, and you don't like to take your shirt off? Is that what's going on? That is the case. It's not just that I don't like to take my shirt off.

I just genuinely don't enjoy swimming in the pool. And we're all in favor of him not taking his shirt off. All right, Brian, I'm hearing the belittling happening. So I already know that your son is not a liar. uh and and if you if i were to rule in your favor what damages would you seek from your jock dad for bullying his nerd son vis-a-vis the pool um a general decrease in the amount of overall um in the amount of aquatic activities as well as you have a graph you want to show me there, nerd? How general a decrease? Okay, a 75% decrease to a total of 25% of the entire, you know, status quo aquatic activities. I love that you actually had go to numbers for that. Yes. Did you make up a flow chart because it has to do with water? I did. I did. because it has to do with water?

I did. I did. There's nothing more satisfying to me than bullying nerds because, as you know, Stefan, I am also a nerd. Yes. And nerd on nerd violence is perverse, but also pervasive. And the day that I started bullying poor Elliot Kalin, then a producer at The Daily Show,

now the head writer of The Daily Show, the day i started bullying that little movie nerd he has a great podcast you know called um the flop house and we talk about we would talk about movies until i got disgusted with myself and then i would bully him and i'd say why don't you shut up nerd and then i would take his his iron man mask off his desk and say, this belongs to me now. See you later. And it got to the point where I would yell invectives at him down the hall. And even I once

threw my shoes at him and hit him square in the back. And he was like, ow. And I realized now, why bullies are bullies. It feels fantastic. I always thought it had something to do with their own insecurity. But I think it truly is like, this tastes good.

I want to do it again. And so I was getting a little of that taste again from bullying you there, Stephan, and I apologize. The truth is that Elliot Kalin, once he became head writer of The Daily Show, I can't even bring myself to bully him anymore. Because I'm afraid there will be reprisals. He's bullying me now. I'm like, hey, can I help? I'm acting like he's the jock. Hey, can I carry your books for you, mister?

So anyway, that's how it goes. Thus always, sick Semper bullies. They begin as monsters and they end as cringing losers. Except in your dad's case. I think he probably still wins. All right. Anyway anyway what were we talking about oh yeah so you want me to reduce the reduce the request the request percentage of getting the pool junior from 75 to 25 well from 100 to 100 down to 25 Okay. An overall decrease of 75%. Right.

So it's 100%. So paint me a word picture. And Brian, don't worry. I haven't forgotten about you. We're going to get to you in a moment. I'm going to let you bully your son too. Thank you. Paint me a word picture of what day, like a weekend, a Saturday, of a Saturday afternoon.

Is that when you would go over? Is that when these pool parties will happen yeah typically saturday or sunday saturday and are they every weekend in the summer uh not every weekend they're they're probably four you know three four five weekends out of the summer all right papa calls you up he says come on over and you say okay and you show up and how does he try to, like, what happens? How does he start to bully you into the pool? Well, you know, it generally starts with, you know, we'll arrive at the home and it'll be me and my girlfriend. And we will, you know, hang out upstairs and, you know,

the group will slowly migrate downstairs. It will be me and my girlfriend. You're right. I was just sitting here. Sorry, I stopped listening to you the moment will be me and my girlfriend you're right i was just sitting here sorry i stopped listening to the moment you said me and my girlfriend because i'm always listening to my wonderful friend uh producer uh and and and bailiff jesse thorn always say me and jordan went to the store and it makes me so mad my girlfriend and i so no no but you were right that was the thing the ghost of of E.B. White came to me and explained it after you

said it. It will be me and my girlfriend. You're the object of that sentence. It will be you and your girlfriend. I see. I think that's correct. Me see too. Alright, okay. So me and your girlfriend, no. You and your girlfriend go over to the house.

And we will, you know, the group, the entire family will slowly migrate down to the pool. And as the group upstairs whittles down, finally it'll be either my father or maybe somebody else in the group, you know, strongly encouraging me to come downstairs, at which point I will. strongly encouraging me to come downstairs, at which point I will. And no matter how coolly I dress for the oncoming activities, I end up sweating immensely down by the pool because I don't enjoy swimming. I understand it is a cooling experience, but I end up sweating by the pool while everybody enjoys their time and the it cools by a convection in the pool and then evaporation out of the pool that is correct so you sit out you're coolly dressed which i

presume means you're wearing like a cool white vest and black shirt and a tie? Not quite like that. You know, not stylishly, but... Oh, okay. Similarly. Similarly. You know, with a T-shirt and shorts. What's on the T-shirt? Pay me the picture.

The T-shirt's going to be gray. It's going to have some type of design on the front. What kind of design? A logo for something? No, you know, design on the front. What kind of design? A logo for something? No, you know, it'll be like a shirt that... A picture of Opus the Penguin from Bloom County? No, no, it'll be something like a bottle, a message in a bottle that says,

did you get my text, or something like that. I like it. Okay, good. Gotcha. Funny T-shirt. And, you know, so maybe some off-green shorts and pair of flip-flops. I don't care about the shorts. T-shirt. Okay, okay. That's a t-shirt tells a story. That's a t-shirt right there, Monty.

Mark that down. T-shirt tells a story. Every t-shirt tells a story. I don't care about the shorts. The t-shirt tells the story. I'm just rolling right over you. I'm being such a bully right now. Oh, no, that's quite all right.

I'm used to it. I've grown up with it for 23 years now. Okay, shut up, Junior, and keep talking. So at this point, I'll proceed to make my way down to underneath the umbrella. And no matter what I do, I'll be absolutely drenched and sweating. And while the encouragements from my father and the rest of the family, mostly led by my father, are numerous. And the belittling, while, you know, like, while. This is the part of the story that needs some dialogue.

You need to tell me what your dad says. Come on, you know, just get in the pool. You'll cool off. You'll feel so much better. Oh, my God. What a monster. Exactly. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry, Stefan. I hadn't appreciated just the trauma you were going through. I'm loving this. I'm loving this. Now, Brian, your turn's coming. It's coming. Stefan, what does he say to belittle you in terms of the pool? Well, you know, it's not a mean-spirited belittling, but it is a general and constant prodding towards the idea of you should swim, you should swim.

Right. Almost like a cult level type of chance, you know? Is it a cult how how big how big a group is this just your family or is this your quote quotation mark family of all the the the weird uh followers that your dad is attracted to his uh poolside rituals um you know it could be a mixture um it could be you know just our family or it could be you know my grandmother and you know family friends extended family yeah that kind of thing how. How big a group is typical, would you say? Apart from myself, probably seven or eight, five or six, somewhere in that area.

Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. And I want you to answer me truthfully here. Okay. You didn't really give me a particularly compelling example of him encouraging you in an offensive way to get into the pool you know what i mean right nor did you give me a particularly compelling example of of the second part of him belittling you for not getting into the pool are your feelings being hurt by your dad well no i mean i feel like the um i feel like you know feelings being hurt would be caused by caused by a mean-spirited type of prodding.

And it's not a mean spirit. He's not mean-spirited at all. Is he pushing you into the pool? No, never. All right. But it's a general, it's a theme throughout the entire, through any interactions that we have that entire day. And it's a theme throughout the entire, through any interactions that we have that entire day. Um, you know,

and, and it's an encouragement. Um, and you know, it may be, well, it may be well intentioned from him, but it is an overall,

um, yeah, it's an overall, uh, under, undercurrent to the entire conversation. I think undercurrent is probably the good way to put it, uh, given how does how why should i care how does it make you feel for your dad to constantly be prodding you to get into the pool over the course of every afternoon um separated

from the group you feel you feel isolated picked out and picked upon. Yes. All right. Ryan, dad, how do you respond to this charge? Oh, I think he pretty much made my case, actually. It's not mean-spirited. It's not, you know, it's I'm sitting here looking at him, and he is sweating hard, you know, up under the umbrella. And I'm like, dude. Are you looking the, up under the umbrella. Are you, are you, are you looking at him now under the umbrella? Are you doing some amazing first person present tense story writing? I'm thinking that I'm picturing him under the umbrella with sweat dripping

down, you know, as he was telling you about what kind of clothes he wears. I'm sitting here thinking, okay, he's wearing a t-shirt, shorts, and a huge amount of perspiration. As he's just sitting there, and he's complaining about how hot he is, and I'm like, dude, get in the pool. Just jump in. Right. And how does it make you feel when he refuses to get into the pool? I feel like I kind of fail him a little bit, to be honest with you. Tell me more.

Well, I think he's developed a little bit of an aquaphobe kind of attitude because of some of the things that happened when he was younger. Whoa. I am so going to get into this tell me more because i don't think i don't think you're let me tell you let me tell you something brian this is not a comment on you as a father but your son's a liar i asked your son I asked your son, tell me what your problem is. And he starts going into this whole thing.

He's like, I just don't like swimming. Clearly, that's not what's going on here. Yeah, exactly. And then I say, does it hurt your feelings? And he's like,

no, no, it doesn't hurt my feelings at all. Dude's not in touch with himself. Tell me how your son was tell me how your son was scarred by water well he um it it started out uh many years ago he went uh into a canoe with my brother onto a lake that we lived on yeah i do not like this i'm already getting chills and and they go out into the middle of the lake and the, the canoe tumps over

and, uh, he was scared. He, it, it, it scared him to death. And so I didn't, you know, I didn't step in immediately and get him back out on the canoe. I like waited a few weeks before, you know, went back out on the water. And, uh, that was, you know, it was a few weeks later, we go out on a canoeing trip and he is scared to death on this canoeing trip. You know, every time we would bump up against a rock or every time that we would, you know, go into some rapids, he would kind of freak out, you know, and, and, you know, over time it kind of developed. Now he's, he's gotten into the pool since.

When was this, the traumatic canoe experience? Yeah, he was, he was a little kid. He was probably six, seven years old, somewhere in that range. All right. And, and, and over time there was another instance where we were in panama city and uh did this also involve your brother no no no this time to see if there's a common thread no no uh and you know my my uh you know they had red flags out there on the beach and red flags means don't get into the water because you know the surf's up there's

there's a risk of an undertow and uh stefan is like hollering don't get into the water don't get into the water and i'm out there in the water because the waves are big and it's fun you know and uh and so he's kind of freaking out plus he got sunburned that day wait a minute wait a minute sir b. Brian. Yes. The red flags are out and you're getting in the water anyway? Yeah, that's kind of the way I am. Do the rules not apply to you? Do the rules not apply to you?

No, not at all. Did you play sports in high school? Yes. Were you good, Adam? Yeah, I was pretty good. What was the sport you played football of course football of course what what position did you play uh running half down back linebacker yeah you're a big fella i'm not really i don't know no not necessarily they're they tend to be fast so were you a star linebacker big? I don't know. No, not necessarily. They tend to be fast.

So were you a star linebacker? It depends on how you define it. What high school did you play for? Seneca High School in Louisville, Kentucky. Did you play in college? No. No, okay. You had rehearsed confrontation, physical confrontation,

over and over again every weekend for the year. So nothing scared you. And also you learned that the rules don't apply to you. It's kind of like that. Yeah. Yeah. Basically, what I understand is that there are two, there are two things going on. One is, well, let me ask you this. Are you ashamed that your son is a nerd? Not at all. No, actually, I'm very proud of my son. He's a bang up kid. I just, I feel like that over time he's developed a, you know, a phobia of, you know, getting in the water. I mean, just, you know, and it's, I don't even know if I'd call it a phobia.

It's more of a stubbornness, you know, that he just wants to say, no, dad, I'm not getting in the water. Yeah. You know, he would rather sit there and sweat and be uncomfortable than to just pull off his shirt, jump in the water, and, you know, he'll feel good. He's proven a point to his dad.

Stephan? Yes, Your Honor. do you remember the time that your dad put you in the canoe with his weird brother and put you out on a lake somewhere in georgia and you and you and you capsized yes your honor but i would like to interject here if i could well just answer my questions because i'm i'm working for you right now uh yes you remember this do you remember this yes moment of intense avuncular negligence yes your honor do did that cause you to have a phobia for the rest of your life about water no not at all now are you telling me the truth now? Yes, Your Honor. I would absolutely state that this is not a story of a little boy who developed a phobia of water whatsoever. Because I actually enjoy being on boats. I mean, if this was the crux of some underlying phobia.

Yeah, I think most people who enjoy being on boats also share a distaste for drowning. The things are not mutually exclusive. It's, um, you know, it, the way that I, the way that I personally feel about it is that, you know, it, it, there's no reason to, um, you know, to, to swim. I mean, I've, I've since swam, I've since enjoyed being in the pool. Um. I have enjoyed being at the beach at times, although I don't particularly enjoy it most times. But generally speaking, I don't believe that it is all caused by a phobia. It's just a lack of interest in swimming all right because your dad really is counting on you getting in that pool so that he can relieve himself of this feeling that haunts him that he ruined your life by letting his dumb brother row you around in a canoe if you get in that pool then he'll know he hasn't failed you and everything will be okay your honor and you withholding this forgiveness from him is eating him away inside you appreciate that correct no your honor i you withhold and you withholding this forgiveness from him is eating him away

inside you appreciate that correct no your honor i feel like that's a sympathy plea no i just let me let me cut in here because it's not so much that he's saying that you know that it's not a phobia or anything like that but i can't think of any other reason why whenever you're sweating like you know heck and you could jump in the pool the pool is right there why not jump in because i don't particularly enjoy swimming football star makes a point stephan yeah but i mean okay you don't enjoy swimming okay bob a little bit you know you enjoy yeah, yeah, you don't have to do laps. Yeah. Tell me about your pool, Brian.

It's, you know, it's a good-sized pool. You know, it's saltwater. It's got a lot of sun, so it's warm, so it's not a problem of it being too cold or anything like that. Hang on. It's a saltwater pool? Yes. All right. Where's a saltwater pool? Yes.

All right. Where are you in Georgia? Columbus. I don't know where that is. About 100 miles south of Atlanta. I'm not surprised. Well, I'm sorry. I just don't know.

Are you bullying me now? It is not at all a city of note. Oh, okay. All right. I look forward to when you get your driver's license renewed after they hear you on this podcast. Saltwater pool. Is it an in-ground pool? Yes.

Yeah. Square, kidney-shaped? Square. What's the hot tub situation? I guess you don't need one. It's all a hot tub in Georgia. Yes, exactly. What kind of decking you got? Wood or that fake wood?

We've got concrete around the pool, but we have decks that lead down to it because we're kind of on a ridge and the pool's down at the bottom. Oh, so that's why Stefan was talking about going down to the pool that way. Exactly. Yes.

Exactly. And the thing is, is that, okay, he decides to, you know, to cloister himself inside the house. Well, then he's not part of the group. Exactly. Yeah. Stefan, would you prefer to just stay upstairs on top of the ridge? No, I mean, I do enjoy my solitude but that being said it's not

it first of all let me interject with the um with the point that while it is warm and while while the pool does have sun it does not it is by no means warm um part of the thing that i like immensely dislike in the whole swimming activity is the, um, temperature shock between, you know, standing dry on the pool and jumping into the water next to the pool. Yeah.

You don't have to tell me about that. I'm in Maine. Do you understand what I'm going, what I'm going through up here? Even in August, the water to swim. Yeah. The water in Maine wants to kill you. It's not going through up here? Even in August, too cold to swim. Yeah, the water in Maine wants to kill you. It's not enough to drown you.

It wants to hurt you first. With coldness. You're not going to get a lot of sympathy from me saying that your dad's saltwater pool in Columbus, Georgia is a little bit chilly. Not when you're in Maine. No. But see, what I don't understand is if you don't like the swimming and you know you're just going to get bugged by your dad to go in the pool all the time to the point of distraction such that you would petition a podcast about it, why don't you just do what I did when I was invited to my cousin's house in Fitchburg for a pool party.

I did when I was invited to my cousin's house in Fitchburg for a pool party. Just go by yourself with your briefcase full of comic books and read them next to your aunt's collection of creepy dolls and have a good time by yourself. Well, it's like my father says. I do generally feel not only the desire to spend time with my family, but also when I don't feel the desire to spend time with my family, I also feel the compulsion and the urging to spend time with my family. That's not to say that I don't enjoy their time or that I don't particularly enjoy it. Do you want Dad to stop telling you to get in the pool, or do you also want dad to stop telling you to come hang out with us? No, it's not that at all. We go over to the house every Sunday. But we all have those experiences where we just don't want to leave the home.

How does your girlfriend factor into this? Does she want to go swimming? Yes. And so does she also join in the pestering? Oh, yes. Oh, yes oh yes absolutely as does the rest of the family oh so minus my little sister who may everyone sympathize with me i wouldn't say picks on me by any stretch of the imagination but um team cohesion is built by ostracizing a single outsider uh true but um overall it's a it's a it's an intense urging or you know prodding right

what describe for me describe for me an experience you say you have had fun in a pool like what's a good pool for you um you know i i can't think of any off the top of my head but you ever go to a water park uh yes i do enjoy going to the water park you ever go to a water down a water slide yes oh absolutely i love You ever go to a water park? Yes, I do enjoy going to the water park. You ever go down a water slide? Yes, oh, absolutely. I love that. You ever go down a water slide in a former Zeppelin factory south of Berlin? No, I've never been outside of the country.

You ever go to the beach? You said you went to a beach, but it wasn't a good beach. What beach was it? Don't worry, I'll never go back. Well, no, I enjoy, you know, like, spinning, you know, Panama City is, you know, what my father mentioned. I've enjoyed sitting down by the beach for about two and a half minutes. And then afterwards, you know, it's hot, it's sandy, I'm covered in sand. That's why you go in the water then.

Yeah, and the water is salty, cold. You know, and I enjoy the culture around the beach you know i enjoy the seafood and what part of the what part of beach culture do you like if you hate the sand and you hate the water because i enjoy the seafood i enjoy the atmosphere of everybody and you know enjoying themselves um but that's not how i particularly enjoy myself right relaxed you know it's not that's not how i enjoy it what what is it about like because i'm pushing this hard because most humans agree at almost any age that getting into a relatively comfortable body of water is kind of a fun thing to do and i don't get why you don't like it and you're and and you're not offering me a lot of like explanation the closest you got for me to understanding was that you dislike

the thermal shock the change of state from dryness to wetness even though you might know that once you accustom and once you acclimatize to the wetness, it actually can be pretty pleasant. You don't like that change. Yeah, it's the change. It's that process. It's the getting out of the pool and then you're cold and wet. And it's just not, I mean, I can understand that the majority of humans actually do enjoy dousing themselves in a comfortable body of water. I don't particularly enjoy that activity. How do you feel when you're in there? Do you ever go in your dad's pool? Yeah.

Oh, I have. I have absolutely. Describe to me the feeling that you have when you're in there. When I'm actually underwater? that you have when you're in there? When I'm actually underwater? Well, I hope you leave some breathing part of your body outside of the water. I'm bored, to be honest with you.

I mean, besides the fact that I'm cold and bobbing, as my father puts it, besides the fact that I'm cold and bobbing, I'm also, you know, just kind of bored. There's not a whole lot of stimulation there. Okay. Are you against swimming or can you just stand in the relatively shallow end and just kind of bob around? Um, I'm pretty much against swimming overall. But you mean by swimming, you mean being in water? Being in water, yeah.

Do you not like baths? I shower daily. Thank you, Stefan. I appreciate that. Yeah, I do too. You appreciate that this is the closest thing that humans can have to the experience of unaided flight, right? This is why swimming is so compelling to children and adults alike. Is that what it is?

I didn't know that. Yeah, you can... Have you really been in water? No, I mean, I have been in water. You can jump and pretend to fly. Before sinking into the, into the water, at which point there's that temperature change thing. And,

you know, you've suggested that you would, you would also like to have your dad participate in other activities. So it's not all pool all the time. Yes. What do you, what are you suggesting that he do instead? I mean, instead of going down the ridge to the pool the family should stay up in the in the in the dark nerd house and do what

i mean we generally enjoy um you know i mean like sundays uh are the days that we you know that i spend time with my family um you know and the things that we do while we are on those Sundays, which is hang out, talk, enjoy each other's companies, maybe board games. I like board games. What board games? I don't want to buzz market here. No, that's okay.

I need to know. I enjoy playing Risk Legacy. Now, what's the difference between that and regular Risk? Because this weirdly has just come up in my life. Risk Legacy is like regular Risk, but it's a bit of a shortened version. And as the game progresses over a series of 15 games, the board changes. And so you can place different stickers on the board you get to name continents which give you bonuses um those stickers can then you know alter the way

that that territory reacts inside of the you know on the board you know for the country's the group's occupying it is that is that your dad hitting the telephone button over and over in protest of this whole idea i was wondering why i was being stopped there hey football star you want to play risk legacy that was me saying okay i'm bored shut up nerd boring yeah um let me ask you a question brian yes have you played risk Legacy with your son? No. Brian, why do you like having these family pool parties so much?

Well, it's nice to be down by the pool. You know, of course, it gets very hot around here. My wife enjoys being in the pool. Stefan's girlfriend likes being in the pool. You know, I'm not a huge fan of it. I mean, I see his point as far as far as you know it being kind of boring i mean you know the whole team the whole team likes it the whole team exactly like it exactly everybody everybody kind of likes it and so you know as i'm sitting down there you know i get a little bit hot i jump in the pool i jump out and i come back and i sit

sit down on the chair and then i look at Stefan and he is sweating. Yeah. You know, drenching his shirt. I understand. You don't. Right. I understand that part. I was just trying.

What do you cook food down there or what? Oh, yeah. Yes, absolutely. Oh, ribs, hamburgers, you know, hot dogs. You know, the usual. Right. Usual stuff. You know, and so i'm looking at stephan

as he's sweating and i'm like dude just jump in do you are you in good shape brian um stephan i weigh roughly what i weighed in high school so yeah you were you you may want to make sure you got that line in i hear you of course well let me just put it this way Of course. Well, let me just put it this way. Stefan, do you weigh roughly what you weighed in high school? You know, plus a couple pounds. How do you feel about taking your shirt off in public?

Because I'll tell you one thing, it terrifies me to take my shirt off in public. I mean, it's not something that I particularly enjoy, but at the same time, it's not something that I would shy away from in the event of a disaster or to save a life or something like that. If there were a tsunami coming and you could stop it by taking your shirt off, you would do it? Yeah, I would feel comfortable doing that staunch bleeding or something like that. Brian? Yes? Doing that staunch bleeding or something like that. Brian, if I were to find in your favor, what would you like me to rule? I would like you to rule that every father has an absolute and certain right to harass his son as often as he wants to. son as often as he wants to, simply for the fact that, you know, how much money we put into him, how much, you know, how much time he spent crying and every time that we had to change his diapers and all that. I feel like it's a right that I could, that I should harass him as often as

possible. I believe it builds character. Final argument from you, Stefan? I feel like I have the right to choose what I do and do not do. And I feel like I shouldn't be excluded from the group for that choice. That's self-exclusion, dude. That's what's going on. Self-exclusion? Yeah, that's what you're doing. It's exclusion by group.

Dude, if you go upstairs to get into the air conditioning while we're all downstairs, you're self-excluding yourself. I don't agree with that. I feel like the group should form to—well, not form, but— Conform to your idea. No. That's what you're saying. Or that we could do something that we all enjoy. You enjoy?

We all enjoy being down by the pool. I mean, it's like three to one, dude. A team is not a democracy step i think i've heard everything i need to make my decision i am i am going to uh go plunge myself into the icy waters of uh of of the coastal main uh to um focus my mind and hurt my body and then then when I come back, I will render my decision. Please rise as judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Brian, the dad, did your dad make you go in the pool as a kid?

No, he didn't have to. I just took to it automatically. Did your dad bully you, Brian? No, he didn't pay a whole lot of attention to me. And so maybe that explains why I'd pay so much attention to my son. So your way of paying attention to him is through harassment?

Absolutely. Like I say, it builds character. Do you want to just harass him or actually make him go in the pool? I just want to harass him because you know i think that uh that people you know i think harassment you know keeps people on the straight and narrow i mean whenever like a celebrity you know does something crazy it's because they don't have somebody standing there harassing them you know that's what we need in this country more harassment i guess absolutely absolutely and now stefan the son do, do you have body image issues?

No, not at all. Not at all. This is from a boy who had a pool since the age of five, but ate a bag of potato chips and chocolate milk every day after school and would never go in my parents' pool until I was in my early 20s, also because of the fact that nudity in my home was referred to as being shamey. Are you sure you don't have anything to confess?

You don't have body image issues? No, not at all. Are you a super taster? Like, when you taste food, does it have to be totally bland? Oh, here we go. Because I have a feeling that you may have a super sensitivity in your body that in Georgia, when you jump into a pool, it makes you feel so cold. Does this translate to other areas of your life? Are you really sensitive to light and taste?

Not at all. Not at all. Would you ever do the ice bucket challenge? Not at all. Is that just way over the top for cold? Not at all. We'll be back in just a moment with judge john hodgman's decision hello i'm your judge john hodgman the judge john hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you our members of course thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all

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Thank you, Guest Bailiff Monty Belmonte. Brian and Stephan, you may be seated. Thank you, guest bailiff Monty Belmonte. Brian and Stephan, you may be seated. This does involve two rights in direct collision. The right that this courtroom has always protected, which is the right to do what people like, to have the freedom to choose what you like and do what you enjoy and not be forced to like something that someone else thinks you should like and the right of parents everywhere to harass and humiliate their children for their own amusement and i respect both of those rights well let me say that i acknowledge both rights i'm not sure that i respect both of them equally stephan i think you can tell from my um my bullying tone uh that i don't understand uh i don't understand clearly uh what it is you don't like about swimming other than your um distaste for the the change

uh the change from the state of dryness to the state of wetness from the state of relative comfort to the sort of initial icky cold weirdness of being underwater and i appreciate that but you know the the pleasure that comes from swimming from uh is not merely the illusion of flight but also uh the reminder that if you surrender yourself to something uncomfortable like almost all water it does become comfortable you get used to it swimming it reminds you that you get used to anything even swimming in maine weirdly your body can adjust even to that and if it doesn't murder you with hypothermia if you get through it then when you pull yourself onto onto the jagged rock shores of the

killing beaches of Maine, you are reminded that you can be uncomfortable and then become comfortable again. And that's a lesson that is valuable throughout life. And unfortunately, I think it's a lesson that too many of our kind, Stefan, the nerd kind, the self-isolationist, the self-excluders, the people who take refuge in the solitary pursuits of personal perfection that are the high craft of nerdery, whether it's painting miniatures or coding or even following fantasy baseball alone by yourself. All of those solitudinous experiences tend to reinforce the idea that you should seek comfort at all times, the comfort of the familiar rather than the greater pleasure of discomfort of the estranged becoming comfort once again. And the reason that I probe you so hard on this point is that your seeking of comfort by avoiding the discomfort of the water perversely leads you to further discomfort. You suffer the flop sweat of the poolside nerd that we've all in our community experienced. Dad, what's going on with

you, of course, is that your son's a nerd and it's hard for you to accept that he is not going to play on your team. He would choose a different path than the one normal people pick. And that is, of course, the argument of the jock. Normal people do this. You should be normal. Please conform to what is normal to my experience and be part of the team that I am leading here. The strangeness and disruption that your son presents to you as he sits there sweating in denial of what is the obvious comfort that you offer him, both the comfort of convection and evaporation cooling that a pool offers and the comfort of being a part of the team, the fact that he seems to have no desire for

it is disruptive and causes you discomfort. And so this keeps banging up against each other. Jock versus nerd, jock versus nerd, jock versus nerd. And I'm trying to decide what is the fairest way to balance these two worldviews, which

both have a right to exist, and yet one is an immovable force and the other is an unstoppable object. And I think that the answer has to be that I have to find in favor... Oh, it's so hard, you guys. Very difficult. oh it's so hard you guys very difficult very difficult uh i have to find in favor of dad i'm sorry to say wow wow yeah i mean you know you both you both have freedom you have freedom uh of association you both have have agency. And I am forced to make the decision that respects the most freedom on both sides. Stefan, you have the right to not go down to the pool and be by yourself upstairs with your risk and your briefcase full of comic books, like I used to do as a kid.

You also have the right to come down to the pool and not take the comfort that the pool offers and be uncomfortable. You have the right to not go in the pool. I think if I were you, I'd make it a mission for myself to go find some body of water that you do like and figure it out because there are profound differences say between going with your girlfriend to the Caribbean and going into the clear blue waters on a white sand beach the two of you on a on a on a cool swim of a romantic evening just before dusk as opposed to baking in the Georgia sun

next to your dad bothering you all day. I think that's only going to reinforce your hatred of swimming. And I'd want you to have a love of aquatic immersion because kind of side with your dad, that's how normal people feel. But also I think it'll it'll help it'll help you manage the the the transition um that so bothers you on some level the transition from dryness to

wetness is a profound transition and you you don't have the benefit of having played football in high school i presume stefan did you play football in high school I did not right nor did I and so uh not having the ritualized confrontation of team sports um really made all confrontation and all changes and all sort of uncomfortable moments much more intense for me they made me a a super taster as it were to the discomfort of uh someone uh asking something of you that you don't feel like doing or being challenged in any way to a much higher pitch than they needed to be in my life. And that's why your dad is so affable and comfortable all the time to the point of annoyance to us nerds and why you sit there and sweat and refuse to do a simple thing that will

make yourself feel comfortable. So I'm saying that you're wrong. You should find a way to enjoy swimming. And if you can't, then I would wonder if perhaps you do have a more of a phobic response than the rational response you insist that you have. But I think you should try to find some way that you and your girlfriend can go enjoy being in water. that you and your girlfriend can go enjoy being in water. Even just a hot tub at a resort of some kind might be some way for you to enjoy this incredibly profound, weird experience that is swimming and being underwater. And dad, you know, you should appreciate that your sons, I know you guys clearly love each other.

And I think you're beginning to appreciate he's never going to get on the team in the same way that you are on a team. He's got a different path, and it's a more solitary path. And, you know, you have the right to harass him, but you also have the right to not harass him. But at the same, you know, all things all things considered in order to preserve both rights, the most, the fact is I can't tell your dad to stop suggesting you go in the pool and harassing you because you are his son and that's the job of the dad. And I can't tell you to get into the pool because you don't want to, and you shouldn't have to do something you don't want to do.

So, uh, ultimately that leaves me with the status quo, which is you just sitting there sweating and enduring this discomfort. And dad, I think you need to, just as your son needs to consider whether his life might be made better and easier if he finds some way to enjoy swimming, some way to enjoy swimming, you might realize that it's a little bit easier to perhaps take the nerd bullying down a peg a notch or two and leave him to his own sweaty devices. Because after all, we're all going to like what we like at the end of this day. It's the end of the summer. How many more weekends are you going to have out there by the pool, would you say,

before it gets too cold in Georgia? It's Georgia, so we got at least until November. Okay, until November, yeah. We're up here in Maine. Everyone just freaked out. Joel, who is the engineer here at WERU, I mean, I think he almost fell over in his chair. Because if I sound like I am contemplating my death more than normal, it's because here in Maine, it's practically autumn already. So have a wonderful extended summer down there.

I cannot order a change in the status quo by any percentage, I'm afraid, Stefan, in order to preserve the rights and freedoms you both enjoy. But I would say, Dad, that this is a pointless conflict. Like all that this is a point, this is a pointless conflict. Like all of the sports you enjoy, it is ultimately pointless. And the only, the only winner there, there will be no winner. If you, if you, uh, annoy your son to the point that he stops coming over as often as you would like. So with those reservations, I find in favor of, of Brian, the jock over Stefan, the nerd, this is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Stefan, were you surprised that Judge John Hodgman didn't rule with the nerd? Yes, I was. I was surprised that he did not feel free or he did not feel the need to preserve the right of choice without repercussion. There's no secret nerd stands up for nerd code? No, no, it's every man for himself.

Brian, congratulations on the ruling. What's the first bullying insult that you'll use to try to convince your son to go into the pool? I might throw an apple into the pool and maybe he'll jump in and try to get it. Does he love apples? Yes, he does. Yes. I would caution you, as not a judge,

just as a human being, maybe you could be a little nicer to your son in the mode of bullying, as Judge John Hodgman's co-star gandhi would probably instruct you to do a little more love and kindness no actually i'd i'd i'd think my son's awesome he's i'm a huge fan of him and uh and you know if he feels like i'm bullying him you know i'd i'm sorry for that uh but i you know i love the kid. He's a great kid. And I enjoy having him over here. And if it takes staying up, staying up top, you know, in the air conditioning,

then I'll stay up top in the air conditioning with him. Thank you both for being on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun

or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I.

It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah! We are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from

MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Alright, Judge Hodgman, you ready to clear this docket? Here's the thing, Monty. It may be my favorite part of any Judge John Hodgman podcast. When the dad said, maybe I'll throw an apple in the pool, then I'll go in. And you said, why, Stefan?

Do you really like apples? And then there's this pause and he just goes, yeah. Who loves apples so much? There's something going on with that family that is fascinating to me. Oh, I hope those kids work it out somehow. Judge Hodgman, I have an important announcement for our listeners.

Tell me. Tell me. I like to listen to the podcast sometime. I don't even know if you know that your court will be on a short summer hiatus in late August and early September for you to further enjoy the frigid waters of Maine, and that

the Judge John Hodgman podcast will return with new episodes on September 10th. Yeah, the summer is coming to an end so fast that I got a whole lot of lobster rolls to eat. And a whole lot of fried other foods to eat. And a whole lot of bodies of water to jump into. We're just going to have to go full summer mode, Monty.

And just blow it off. Blow it off for a week or two. Everyone take a rest. Listen to some of the incredible back catalog of Judge John Hodgman. But if you're in the New England area, Monty, let me say I will be leaving New England on August 30th. I will be driving south on I-95. Will I need to take a rest? Yes. Will I stop at the I-95 southbound rest stop at Kennebunk, Maine? Yes. Will Jonathan the Fresh Banana Man be there? He says so. Will I meet

him and hang out with him? Yes. Can you come? Sure, people who want to drive to the southbound service plaza on I-95 and Kennebunk. It'll be Saturday, August 30th as I am going on my way home. I'm not going to hang out there for hours and hours. And I will let you know the more or less precise time that I will be there via Twitter,

at Hodgman, that's at H-O-D-G-M-A-N, on Saturday the 30th. Then, I will continue to drive south as summer ends to Massachusetts, where I will rendezvous with you, Monty Belmonte, the great summer bailiff and morning host at WRSI The River, in Turner's Falls, Massachusetts, on Sunday, August 31st. Time to be determined, but place the appropriately named rendezvous. That's a bar in Turner's Falls, which is right next to Greenfield, Massachusetts, which is a great town. And if we're lucky, we might also be joined by Emily Brewster, who comes on

the show to tell us what words mean from time to time, because she works at The Dictionary. So check the Twitter there, and I'll post as much as I can all over my Tumblr at johnhodgman.com, my Twitter, which is at Hodgman. Monty, do you think you can come meet us at the rendezvous on Sunday afternoon, the day before Labor Day? Seeing as I live within walking distance of there, I'm going to make a point of it.

Yeah. So even though we won't have podcasts, we have this chance to meet up together, listeners of Judge John Hodgman. chance to meet up together, listeners of Judge John Hodgman. And before we move on to the docket, I also want to say thank you to the Loyal T-Shirt Brigade, all the lovely people who wrote in, having collated all the T-shirt ideas that I've been tossing off here. And those people specifically are Melissa Harvey, T.G. Vompey, Ian Pollock, Meg M., Anthony Schrock, Emily Groendyke, David Schwartz, Jonathan Horton, Harith Sam, Jen Minnell, Kate Moffitt, Josiah Duff, Karen Costan, and Scott Selivag. If I've forgotten any, I apologize. Let me know.

I'll read your names next time. But these are the people who pulled together all the t-shirt ideas that I've been throwing off without making a note of them. And I'm glad to say we got the mad genius Sam Potts working up some new t-shirts. They'll be for sale for soon on Topatoco.com, on the John Hodgman and Maximum Fun stores. That's T-O-P-A-T-O-C-O.com for t-shirts from Judge John Hodgman, all your favorite Maximum Fun podcasts, which is to say all of them. So that's the news. What's the docket? podcasts, which is to say, all of them. So that's the news. What's the docket?

Mitch writes, my wife and I don't watch much TV in real time, but we do use the DVR to record old movies and episodes of Modern Family. We can't decide when to watch them. I'm a translator and writer and work at home. My wife has a regular nine to five job and is also an artist with the studio at the other end of Brooklyn. She stays there two nights a week and goes to bed earlier than me throughout the week. Should I wait until she has the time to watch the recorded shows together? She says, yes, they're recorded so we can share the experience of watching them. I think we'll never get around to seeing everything if I wait for her. What say you, Judge John Hodgman? everything if I wait for her. What say you, Judge John Hodgman?

Watching old movies with your wife is very romantic and you can't do it unless you're together. That is good. It is somewhat sad to watch a big backlog DVR of Modern Families episodes together. That's weird. I'm not saying anything against that show. I'm just saying sitting down to binge watch a bunch of Modern Family is not as romantic. That is more obsessive. Now, since your wife leaves you two nights out of the week to sleep in her studio on paint cans or whatever she does, you should just curate some shows and movies for yourself to watch on your own. Since you're a guy, I suggest you just watch Miller's Crossing over and over again. But I'm sure there's something that you want to watch.

Maybe iClaudius. iClaudius is great. It's a great, amazing miniseries starring all of your favorite British actors when they had hair, and also features a time in Rome when husbands and wives never slept together unless they were going to make a baby. And it's a very compelling idea to marry people having their own rooms or studios across Brooklyn.

Whatever you guys have arranged, it's great, but it's not very good for watching television together. Set aside time to watch movies together one night a week otherwise you know what you're on your own watch whatever you want and modern family you have you obviously you watch in the dentist's office or whatever on your on your device you know you don't you that's not i'm sure there are people who disagree with me i have friends who work on modern family it's a great amazing show um but but it's it's not it's not it's not date night, I don't think. So unless she gets it together to sit down with you to watch them all, bets are off. I make my wife wait until Friday and Saturday night so we can binge watch Breaking Bad, which we are now just starting.

So I disagree. Yeah, and again, it's nothing against Modern Family. Maybe they have long, compelling story arcs where it's like you're reading a novel together or whatever, but I'm just saying that's the kind of stuff where it's not important for you to watch together, but make some time to, since you're not sleeping together every night,

make some time to watch a movie together once a week or whatever. Thank you to Michael Davidson Jr. for suggesting this week's case name. Thanks, Michael Davidson Jr. To suggest a name for a future case, like Davidson, Jr. I've been your guest bailiff, Monty Belmonte. Judge Hoffman, you should maybe mention,

but it will be fall soon, and you'll be coming to Northampton where this radio station is, WRSI, on November 21st to do a performance here. Yeah. I would buzz market you in Northampton. Thank you. Yeah, I look forward to seeing my friends in Northampton on that date. What is it? Oh, it's right before Thanksgiving, November 21st. Yeah.

At the Academy of Music. Julia Smith produces the show. Mark McConville is our editor. Thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thanks for the tickets, Mark. Maximumfun.org Comedy and culture. Artist owned. Listener supported.