Judge John Hodgman - Veranda Rights

Episode Date: May 15, 2013

What is the appropriate porch furniture of the day? Judge John Hodgman decides.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, Veranda writes, Ryan brings the case against his friend and neighbor, Allie. Ryan recently moved and has decorated an outside porch area with indoor furniture. Allie thinks the furniture isn't appropriate for outside use. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. It's the Staten Island Garbage Rats featuring A.P. Mike, The Fink, and of course, Tom. Jesse, you may swear them in.

Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you God, or whatever. Yes. I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that his be seated. For an immediate summary judgment in your favor, can either of you name the specific piece of culture

that I paraphrased to music as I entered the courtroom? Is it something from a superhero movie? No, but could be. I'm not even going to venture a guess. Well, I said the name of the thing staten island garbage rats the incredibly popular uh reality show that does not exist because it was made up by tom sharpling on the best show on wfmu tom sharpling of course was our guest bailiff a couple of episodes back and And and he has an amazing radio show that you should listen to that is also a podcast called

The Best Show on WFMU, in which he has cast himself and his associate producer, Mike and the Fink, as a potential new as cast members of a potential new reality show in which they play guys in Staten Island to go around trash picking. And I brought it up because a lot of this case has to do with the fact that, Ryan, you're taking garbage furniture out of the garbage and putting it on your porch like it belongs there. Is that not so? I wouldn't necessarily use those adjectives, but I think the general principle is that, yes. The specific adjective garbage, right? Yes. use those adjectives, but I think the general principle is that, yes.

The specific adjective garbage, right? Yes. I would call it furniture. I would use that now, but I would not use the adjective garbage. Well, we are talking about a reclining chair and a sofa, an armless sofa. And I think all humans would agree that that is furniture. But let's get to the point of whether or not it is garbage. Where did you find it? Well, I found it on the street with a sign that said, please take me to a good home.

So it was someone else's refuse. Would you say that? Discarded, yeah. They discarded it. They refused to have it anymore in their house. Yeah, they discarded it. They refused to have it anymore in their house. And the armchair and sofa were in good enough order that you decided to bring them to your house. And you put them on your porch in Cabbage Town, a neighborhood of Atlanta, Georgia. Is that correct? Yes, that is correct. Okay, so describe Cabbage Town to me. I've been to Atlanta many a time, but I've never been to Cabbage Town, I don't think.

It is a very artsy, eclectic neighborhood that a lot of the houses are very old. Ours was built in 1920. I think a lot of them are shotgun houses and built around that time. A lot of them just have interesting art and weird porch stuff going on.

I know that a house nearby is a national sanctuary, like a wildlife sanctuary, and it has a bunch of cats in the yard, things like that. Just kind of strange. You know, it's one of those neighborhoods with a lot of weird porch stuff. So by weird porch stuff you do you just mean garbage furniture on porches or or what else

no i would say that there's a lot of uh people's art and things hanging up in and around their porch um i wouldn't say that every house has a cloth recliner and a leather sofa, but I think that there is a lot of, you know, chairs and things like that, that may not necessarily, you might not find in the garden section of Home Depot or other hardware stores. A lot of young bohemian types in this part of town or what? Yeah, absolutely. Is it a hipster neighborhood? Artsy? Sure.

Okay. Yes. Sorry. Are you over the term hipster? Well, after that episode a few weeks back, I think I might be. I love those kids in Philadelphia. And don't worry, I love you too. I'm just being mean as a kind of devil's advocate until I figure out what about you really angers me.

And then watch out. Allie, you disapprove of Ryan's furniture choice. What stake do you have in how he decorates his own porch? Well, my stake is that he's a dear friend of mine and also lives one street away from me. I don't personally have a porch, so I've adopted his porch as my own. You're a porch squatter? I am a porch squatter.

Is porch, and now in Cabbage Town, is porch culture a big thing? Do all the hipsters of an evening sit out on the porch and sip artisanal lemonade and twirl their mustaches and talk about the latest things on Pitchfork? Yeah, I would say so. We usually judge the other hipsters biking by or laugh at the drunk hipsters at the bar across the street. So it's a pretty common activity, porch sitting.

Did you hear how long it took me to think of the word pitchfork? I'm 41 years old. I'm old. What is your age? I'm 25. And what is your age, Ryan? I'm 23. And you're both obviously unemployed.

We are both gainfully employed. I'm sure it's a surprise to everyone, but gainfully employed. What is your job? Why can't you afford regular furniture? I work at a non-profit downtown. Say no more, say no more. We do political stuff in state government. Yeah, yeah, I know, I understand. You're right, you're not only pulling furniture off the street, also meals. No, I'm sorry.

You work in a nonprofit? You work with the state government to do a thing or a thing? Say it again. Yeah, we work on ethics. We work to better ethics in state government. Yeah, you're going to be sitting on garbage couches for the rest of your life. Allie, what are you doing? I do marketing for an engineering firm.

Okay. So why don't you just buy him a couch? You know, I've offered him a bistro set. What is a bistro set? A bistro set. It's a cute little table with little matching chairs you can sit at. Wow. You're a hipster, but you talk like a 49 year old mom i know i've no i've never heard of a bistro set but that's cute you offered to buy him a bistro set i own one from my last house where i had a porch since i don't have one anymore i I was going to loan it to him. You're trying to give him your garbage?

My porch garbage, yeah. All right. Ryan, first of all, let me just say I was unduly mean about your job working on ethics for nonprofit and state government. Good work. Good job doing that, whatever it is. Well, thank you. I appreciate that you didn't come out of college or whatever your life circumstances were and just try to make a bunch of money

doing marketing at an engineering firm. Get to a point where you start feeling like you can tell everyone how to live their lives and how to decorate your porch. Do either of you own your homes in Cabbage Town? No, we are both renting. Both renting. Right.

Okay. And you have submitted some evidence, a number of photographs of the so-called weird porch culture of Cabbage Town. Is that not correct? That is so. Allie, you sent in some pictures of a porch, which I now know is not your own because you don't have one. So apparently you went around Cabbage Town standing in strangers' yards and taking pictures of their porches. I did. I felt

really weird, but everybody's really friendly, so they were okay with it. So here we have one. Let's see. It's not really a porch, but it's sort of an outdoor area. And oh, there is a bistro set. That's what a bistro set is, right? That one, that metal table with those two chairs? Yes, that's exactly what a bistro set is. Oh, okay. It's like those metal chairs, like cafe chairs that you sit in that you can never, that's really uncomfortable because you can never push them back without it making a horrible noise. Exactly. I totally agree.

Cold steel. That's not comfortable to sit in. I have cushions for you. Oh, that's just makes it worse. It's just an insult. Those cushions are just a reminder that the chair is uncomfortable and it's always too small. It's always too small for your butt and shoulders.

And like, that's the thing that drives me crazy though, is you want to push back the chair and you can't, you got to lift it up and then like hike it back. And it goes. I'm not, I'm not doing a really bad experience with these. I'm not doing, I'm not doing a good job of buzz marketing your bistro set for free cycle or whatever.

All right. Here's another porch. This is a lovely porch. It's got a porch swing. Awesome. Another bistro set. And there's a third porch. And this is a small porch, but it's got a chandelier and Christmas lights and it looks beautiful. And another bistro set. Once you start seeing it, once you start thinking about bistro sets, you see them everywhere. We'll put these up on the website so you can see. But these all look like very, very nice adult porches. They get some nice sunflowers out. It looks like a nice place to sit of an afternoon. I like the Christmas lights or whatever those are.

None of these is Ryan's porch, though? No, none of these are Ryan's porch. Okay, so let me take a look at Ryan's porch. Okay. So this, this, uh, nice arts and craftsy sort of shotgun house. This is yours with the, with the cement stairs,

Ryan. Yeah. With all the ferns hanging up. Yeah. All the ferns. You got six ferns hanging on your porch all in a row. I know they're part of the family. Oh,

what, what do you mean? Do you talk to them? we, all in a row. I know, they're part of the family. Oh, what? What do you mean? Do you talk to them? We give them baths every day and they get a lot of sun and they hang out with us on the porch when we sit around. I don't think that's true. Let me just make sure you're not crazy. The ferns don't have names,

do they? No, the ferns do not have names, but that's a good idea no it's not no it's not uh okay so the house looks okay and then i see the interior of the house and uh and it looks like you're 23 years old okay there's you know bare floors and you're using everything you got a cheslong here that doesn't quite match the leather love seat. Obviously, you've got a flat panel TV rigged above this little fireplace. I like that little fireplace.

Does that work? Do you put fires in there? I think it probably used to work, but they've all been stuffed up with insulation. There's actually a fireplace in every room. Oh, really? You know, I'm looking at how you've got this TV rigged up and you might find that you'll have a fire in that fireplace soon. The TV is, I don't know whether it's the angle, but it looks like you have rigged your flat panel crookedly. So I'll just, maybe you want to go and

get a level. But my, the nice touch I like is, is the sort of like uh the the little unpainted wooden stool that you're using as a side table okay i like that it looks like on the tv they're maybe watching a page from a magic eye book it looks yeah it looks like it looks like a screensaver of some kind an early 90s computer animation demonstration? Is that the nonprofit that you work in? It's the nonprofit for the presentation? Yeah, we work with Windows Me.

Oh, how could you possibly know about that? Let's move on. Oh, how could you possibly know about that? Let's move on. Now, Ryan, may I presume that all of the furniture inside the house is also from the garbage? I would hope that you would, and I don't think it has the same exact character as the furniture on the porch. It has all been purchased at stores at some point, but maybe not. It's all secondhand, but not from the trash. Yeah, everything was purchased from a store at some point, but maybe not. It's all secondhand, but not from the trash.

Yeah, everything was purchased from a store at some point. It's not like this furniture grows in the trash. Well, if we're talking about artisanal porch furniture, I'm not sure. You didn't, but you didn't buy, I should say, you are not the first owner of this wrinkled leather love seat and the Cheslong that's inside. No, they were my parents at some point. Okay. And now we go outside to the porch and...

All right. Not only do you have an upholstered recliner, but it is powder blue. And not only do you have a couch from the garbage, but it is a leather couch. And not only do you have a couch from the garbage, but it is a leather couch. And not only that, you also have what looks like, on the other side of the porch, under the other set of ferns, a captain's chair, like a dining room chair, and a weird wooden desk. May I presume all of those things are found items? Yeah.

You should mention the rug, Judge Hodgman. Is that a rug? Yeah. You should mention the rug, Judge Hodgman. Is that a rug? Yeah. What kind of rug is it? Is it a sizzle rug? I can only presume it's some sort of science experiment rug. I think at some point it was supposed to be a faux bamboo type of rug, which I presume meant it was great for the outdoors. How has that thought experiment worked out?

I don't mean to be totally dismissive of your habit of picking out garbage off the street and putting it to use. That is enlightened of you. But I think one of the issues here is that this furniture is not designed for outdoor use, right? Particularly in a— It is. It's a covered porch for those of you listening at home, but, you know, the sides are open. And when you expose things like upholstered—when you expose leather and fake bamboo and upholstery to the elements, it's not always for the best.

upholstery to the elements, it's not always for the best. Well, I would say that because the porch is covered and somewhat deep, the few times that it has rained, we've been able to move the furniture towards the center of the house just to like weather the storm. And then afterwards, everything's, you know, untouched by the elements and then we move it back. And to help prevent the house from capsizing. And what is the, is this the complete porch decoration, or do you have an end game? Are you going to add a broken kiddie pool, or a bunch of bicycle tires, or a stack of

New Yorkers that are swollen with rain? I'm sure I could find all of those things around the neighborhood if I were to look, but I think the porch, we have some, uh, some lighting on the top above the fern. So at night it has a nice soft lighting. And I would just say that I think the reason that we chose to, to pick this furniture up off the curb is not because we can't afford to have anything on the porch. It's that these items are comfortable. They, people come anything on the porch. It's that these items are comfortable. People come up to the porch. It's like another room in the house.

And ever since I've kind of set it all up, every time people are over, that's kind of where we're hanging out. We're playing cards on the porch and hanging out on the porch. And I think if we had a bistro set, that might not be the case. You understand.

Did you attend a college? I did, yeah. Were you, did you attend a college? I did. Yeah. Were you a member of a fraternity? I was not a member of a fraternity. No. Do you love fraternities? I do not love fraternities.

I have no love for fraternities. Because you understand that the outdoor upholstered recliner is basically that, that is a move that was pioneered by fraternities. Well, I think maybe I'm trying to reclaim it. Oh, Oh, basically, that is a move that was pioneered by fraternities. Well, I think maybe I'm trying to reclaim it. Oh. Oh, it's like an ironic fraternity trash chair. You are a hipster. Cool. All right, Allie, I'm making your case for you, and you're just sitting there twiddling your thumbs, right? It's true. I appreciate it. Yeah, you think, because, you know, look,

there are obvious issues that we can discuss here. They're as plain as a moldering recliner on a Cabbage Town porch, which is a saying. But I'm tired of making your case for you because you have a case that you need to make. Why should I tell Ryan how to live? Well, first of all, he did find the furniture on the side of the road. So there's really no telling where it was before, what purpose it served in its past life. Yeah. No, I've established that it's gross.

Are you, but I, but I need from you is an argument as to why I should order Ryan to redecorate his own porch when you do not live there and you have no say over how he lives his life. I would accept an argument, for example, that there is a public health hazard. I would accept an argument that there may be opossum or snakes living inside the upholstered recliner that might bite him if he were to sit on it, and he would get rabies and die. That was actually my next point. I have a dog, and the first time I brought my dog over to the porch to meet the new porch

furniture, she immediately went to the recliner and stuck her nose underneath it. I'm convinced there's a small animal living under there. So that's kind of a bummer. And then there's also no other seating options really available for his guests. Oh, I would wholeheartedly disagree to that. I think there's plenty of chairs sitting around. Yeah, there's the old captain's chair. There's the dusty dining room chair.

But all is still inside furniture that was found on the side of the road. So when you're looking for a nice, safe, happy place to sit on the porch as a guest, there aren't really a lot of options. Do you have qualms about sitting in any of these chairs? I usually end up sitting in the wood ones or standing. But the wood ones are kind of falling apart, too. They've got pieces of wood coming off of them, and you catch yourself on it. I'm always worried I'm going to get a splinter.

I would call that folk art, but okay. We know that you would, ironic upholstered recliner, outdoor recliner. Are you guys in a relationship? No, we are not. Whoa. Did I in a relationship? No, we're not. Whoa. Did I touch a nerve? No. We get that question a lot.

So you're just pals? We're just neighbors and pals, yeah. How much time would you say you spend on this porch? I don't spend very much time on the porch with Allie at all. Is Allie welcome on your porch? She is more than welcome, but not if she's going to slander my choices. Allie, you said that you do not have a porch. How does it feel to be the one 20-something in Cabbage Town to not have your own

porch to dress up? I feel a little left out, a little sad. There might be a little porch jealousy happening here but also... Well, you're obsessively taking photos of these other people's nice porches. Can I speak

to the porch jealousy judge for a moment? Sure, I'll allow it. Okay, thank you. Well, before I moved into this house, Allie and I were both actively searching for new places to live. And Allie actually really wanted to move into this house, which I did not know until after I'd already moved in. So I think that maybe some of this porch envy and porch judgment is coming from the fact that she was the jilted renter. Wouldn't you say, though, that you're wasting the porch? I would agree with that statement. Well, no, but he's using it, so how is he wasting it?

By putting gross furniture on it. But here's the thing. He's the homeowner, or the home renter, the primary tenant. Do you have roommates? I have one roommate, yes, my brother. And you guys put your bums down on this gross furniture all the time, right? Yeah, our

bums are constantly down on this furniture. You don't have... Yeah, you're bums down dudes. You don't have qualms. You love lice and bedbugs, right? You don't care? Well, I've actually spent quite a bit of time on both the cloth recliner and the leather futon

and have not had... Whoa! That leather thing is a futon? It's a leather futon? I didn't think they could make futons any more tasteless. Oh, I thought you were going in a different direction with that. Have you ever slept out on the porch on your leather futon? Not overnight.

And let's be clear, he's never slept on that futon on purpose. A long time ago when I was, I guess, probably 13 or 14 years old, my oldest friend, Damon Graff, and I went down to Ocean City, New Jersey to spend a long weekend with my grandparents who rented a little apartment. You know, it's a seaside community. They rented a little apartment on the second floor that had a big open porch. And we decided that it would be fun to sleep on the porch on the, I think there was a hammock out there and an outdoor, indoor, outdoor couch and sleeping bags. And I have to say, I have never, Ocean City is a very safe community. It's a dry town, extremely safe community, but there's nothing in my life that has rivaled the sheer uncanny terror that I felt. Sleeping out of doors, but in a town. It was just,

of doors, but in a town. It was just, I just, it was the most terrifying thing. Just sitting there looking at that dark, empty street. I've never felt more alone. I might as well have been in a moon capsule. I can only imagine it would be rendered even more depressingly solitudinous if I were sleeping on a leather futon. I thought there was nothing, I never thought there was anything that was going to give me goosebumps the way my memories of the old 20,000 Leagues Beneath the Sea ride at Walt Disney World gave me. As I imagined those robot fish in the water right outside my porthole.

That, I think, leather futon on a porch sleeping overnight, that's just terrifying to me. Cabbage town or no cabbage town? Sorry, I had to go on a little tangent there. I apologize. I just had a flash memory of terror, which your porch inspired. Hey, I've got a question

for you, Ryan. Sure. Did you see all those pictures of those nice porches? I did see all those pictures, and I've taken many a stroll around the neighborhood to see how other people have decorated. Those people hate your porch. Do you understand that? I haven't ever received a negative comment from anyone besides Allie, which is why I thought this was so strange, and I needed to submit it to the court for review. Is that how you think it works?

Do you think people come up and knock on your door and tell you, you have a very ugly porch set up. It's gross to see moldy, dirty, indoor furniture on your porch. Anyway, I'll see you on Sunday at church. He's 23 years old. He doesn't understand how humans interact. Of course he imagines that people are going to come up to him. No one's ever said anything about it to me.

You live across the street from a bar alley. You've been on this block. I know that there's their houses on either side. Did you take pictures? Those nice porches. Are those like Ryan's next door neighbors or are they on the block that doesn't have a crummy bar? No, they're on the same street. Most of them are.

But his next door neighbors, the house was at too steep an angle for me to get a good picture. So I didn't get houses on either side, but they're both quite well decorated as well. I'm surprised that you didn't get pictures of both of those houses because, A, it would have been very useful in me considering this case. And, B, you are obviously an expert garden invader. Surprised you didn't just walk up. It's true. I just thought it was a little uncomfortable. They're offensive. But this is the thing about porches that make—I think I understand now why I was so terrified in Ocean City and why this is

such a viscerally affecting case to me, because porches are sort of this transitional realm between public and private space. And even stepping onto a porch without being invited, you know, there's nothing protecting you from the outside world. And yet it is still your private space. And, and being in that, in that between two worlds in that way, I think is, is kind of the beauty of a porch, not just the gentle breeze, but also I'm in my home, but I'm also exposed to the world, but then also the terror of a porch when you are stepping onto it, when you don't belong to it. And it's precisely this haziness between public and private space

that should give you pause, Ryan, when you put things on your porch, not merely because you're going to be judged by your neighbors, but also because Allie is breaking into houses all the time. And someday you might just wake up and discover that all of your leather futon has been burned. And you'll never know. All right, Allie, if I'm to find in your favor, what do you want me to do? I would request that you ask Ryan to find in your favor, what do you want me to do? I would request that you ask Ryan to find a new home for his porch furniture,

and I would help him to acquire tasteful, appropriate porch furniture. You sure you are not in love with this guy? You're trying to run his life. I'm pretty sure. I'm just kind of bossy. It's like you're trying to neaten him up so that he becomes boyfriend material for you. Is that what's going on? No.

No, not quite. All right. Ryan, what do you want me to do? I mean, I guess if I rule in your favor, it's just status quo. Garbage porch. Well, it would be. Garbage porch of cabbage town. I would prefer it not to be called garbage porch. Garbage porch of Cabbage Town. I would prefer it not to be called garbage porch, but I think if you found it my favor,

I'd also request that if and when Allie moves to a new place that may have a porch that she be required to adorn it with at least one piece of indoor furniture. That's terrible. I feel a little vindictive. I feel like I was insulted, and now I need to bring justice.

Diabolical. How dare you, madam, suggesting that I don't put garbage on my porch. I'm insulted. Okay, I think I have heard everything that I need to hear. I am now going to go out to the Judge John Hodgman Memorial Gazebo and give this some thought, and I will be back in a moment. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Allie, how are you feeling about your chances in the case? I'm feeling pretty good.

I feel like he basically made my case for me, which I appreciate. And also that, you know, trash shouldn't really be on a porch in a nice neighborhood. Allie, you seem like a classy lady. How come you're hanging out with garbage people? My question exactly. That's why I'm trying to class them up a little bit. So you can be an appropriate friend. Ryan, was your goal in setting up your porch to the way that you have to create a sort of invisible, well, visible barrier to people who you might have a romantic interest in?

My goal was to make a fun, friendly, comfortable environment for my friends to come hang out, which I thought prior to about 40 minutes ago I had done very successfully. to come hang out, which I thought prior to about 40 minutes ago, I had done very successfully. Like one of those, you know what I'm talking about? Like one of those fences where a dog runs up to it and then he goes, and he can't go any further. Cause this is sort of, this is sort of what you've set up right in front of the entrance to your home. And he has been single since I met him. So let me ask you this, Ryan, would it be possible for you to use state government graft to possibly finance a new porch set? Do you have any poll in the office of porches?

That office is very, uh, very, you know, available for any sort of influence that I might bring. Okay, well, get in on that. How do you feel about your chances, Ryan? I felt great before we started. They all do, Ryan. They all do. How about now?

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it's the judge john hodgman podcast i'm bailiff jesse thorn please rise as judge john hodgman enters the courtroom guys i just first of all just want to say it is freezing out on the gazebo it is not this is this spring is not kicking in and i am mad about it here in park slope this is normally sweet gazebo weather i'm sure it's wonderful down in Atlanta. Hey, what is Cabbage Town? Why is it called Cabbage Town? Because of the persistent fart smell. It used to be a mill town and had a lot of Irish immigrant families that worked in the mill adjacent to the neighborhood. And the cab drivers that took people home, or I guess that drove by, thought it smelled like cabbage.

And I think the name stuck. So it's like vaguely racist town. It's ethnic stereotype town. Yeah. You saw my fart joke and raised it one broad ethnic stereotype. Ryan, if it's your goal to create a fun time environment for guests, you have both succeeded and failed.

You have succeeded in tempting the kinds of dudes who don't mind sitting on indoor furniture in an outdoor space, the heightened, the very height of transgression that a porch represents, that place between the worlds of private and public, indoor and outdoor. These are the kinds of people like your brother who have no problem sitting on any crazy surface so long as it is there and it is across the street from a bar. But you have not created a space that is going to be attractive to friends like Allie.

I don't want to deal in horrible cabbagtown style ethnic and demographic stereotypes, but I'm talking about ladies. Ladies don't want to sit on that stuff. They may come over and stand awkwardly in the middle of the porch, but people of, and sort of occasionally will sit on the hard surfaces because they know that it is not ridden with pests, the very least, unless termites. But they are just being polite, just like your neighbors who walk by your eyesore every day and don't say anything to you about it. and don't say anything to you about it. They're being polite.

I'm telling you this because you need to know this doesn't look good. This porch does not look good. It may be comfy, and I am certainly in favor, honestly, of you recycling furniture. That's great. And it doesn't matter to me if it comes from the trash as much as I've made it out to be for fun.

But a upholstered recliner and leather futon do not belong outside for obvious reasons. They will not hold up. They will get moldy. They will have things living in them and it will get gross. moldy, they will have things living in them, and it will get gross. B, aesthetically, what you're doing in this space, and I'll leave it to Judge John Hodgman listeners to go to the website and discover that I'm absolutely right, is not very pleasing yet. And this puzzles me, because you have pretty good taste, actually.

You know, I kind of like the idea, honestly, of kind of these these old wooden dining chairs and kind of setting up kind of an artisanal little writing space outside on that porch. It's almost looking good on that end of the porch where you got the wooden furniture almost. But then you got this cast off recliner and the cast off futon that look as though you're standing in the middle of a discount furniture store that was abandoned 35 years ago and the walls fell down. But here's the thing. I know you have taste because those six ferns are hot. Three ferns on one side, three ferns on the other side. That's a great look. I like that. I like those ferns on one side, three ferns on the other side. That's a great look. I like those ferns.

So I think that you need to think seriously about stepping up your game a little bit. If you really want this porch to be something other than a place for fratty and ironic, hipster, non-fratty dudes to hang around, hipster, non-fratty dudes to hang around, and you actually want to have people like Allie, which is to say other friends, come by and truly feel comfortable, you should go on to Freecycle or Craigslist and find some true indoor-outdoor furniture that you like that is either cheap or for free and set it up nice.

Consult some magazines. Take a look. Accept Allie's help a little bit. I think you should do this. That said, I'm ruling in your favor, Ryan, because it's your house. I can't force you to do something. There's no imminent health danger. I do think that you might have stuff living in that chair,

but Allie hasn't made a case that that's actually true. That's just a potentiality. And taking upholstered furniture off the street is always going to be problematic and you can get bedbugs. They're coming back. Believe me, I learned the hard way. But but but there's been no proof that there's a there's a health hazard here that is just an aesthetic hazard. People, you know, people decorate their houses inside and out dumb ways all the time. There's no condo association that's forcing you to, or homeowners association that's forcing you to maintain the exterior house in a certain way. You live in Cabbage Town. It's anarchy down there. You can do whatever you want.

And Allie clearly made a big mistake by not getting her own porch. And I think she should move and get a porch of her own. Show you how it's done. So aesthetically, I find you guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors. But as a matter of internet law, Allie can't force you, nor can I, to live your life and decorate your house. I can't legislate taste. You're going to have to learn

to develop it. And I hope that this is a wake-up call that that porch is not welcoming and comfortable, but it is weird and gross. And I know you can do better because of the ferns,

another saying that is very common. I find in the favor of garbage porch. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Ryan, you emerged semi-triumphant. How do you feel? I feel a little dirty.

Yeah, you probably are. Take a look at the seat of your jeans after you sit down on that pollen-covered leather futon once in a while. You'll see you are a little dirty. Sorry. Sorry about that, Jesse. I'm going back to my gazebo. Allie, how are you feeling? Well, I'm disappointed that he ruled in Ryan's favor, especially because I'm positive there's a squirrel living in there, just based on the dog's nose. She knows. But at the same time, I'm glad that Ryan now believes that inside furniture has no place being on a porch. I mean, I'm right there with you. This is a dire situation.

And just to clarify, just to clarify, Ryan, in case you want to take the court's advice by outdoor furniture, we I mean to say something that is water repellent and designed to be that way. And also does not provide a hiding or living place for a mammal or insect. And the wooden chairs, right, they're on the line because they're not designed for outdoor use, but they are more repellent of water or can be. You know, there's a lot of wooden deck furniture, obviously. Teak is recommended, by the way. But also, they will not harbor squirrels. And if Allie had presented me one piece of hard evidence that there was a squirrel in that recliner,

I would tell you to burn your house down. And also, let me just say, and I'm sorry again, Jesse, because I came out of the gazebo again, but I got to say something that I learned recently that I think the world needs to know. Atlanta has a lot of wildlife around, and if you get a raccoon up in there, which is very possible, and a raccoon poops on your porch, you cannot touch that stuff.

I looked it up. It is highly toxic, poisonous. Do not touch raccoon poop. Hire an animal control expert to get rid of it for you. I have a porch, raccoon pooped on it. Alright, that's all I need to say. Well, guys, thank you so much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you. Yeah, thanks. Judge Hodgman, can I come back inside? Who are you? Who are you? Get off my porch! It's Bailiff Jesse! Oh, Bailiff, hello. Geez, Jesse, you really scared me.

Why are you wearing that mask that the killer wore on the strangers? Recreational purposes. Let's clear the docket. Here's something from Jenna. My husband and I disagree. How often should a bathroom towel be washed? Typically, I'll use mine once or twice before washing. My husband doesn't think it gets dirty

and will only initiate a wash when it begins to smell. Oh, come on, dude. Stop it. At least once a week, I'll throw his towel in the dirty laundry. But I know this displeases him. Is it acceptable to reuse a towel? If so, how many times is it acceptable to reuse? Uh, first of all, guys. Or husbands.

Or people. Yeah. You know, it's like, it's not just that girls like nice outdoor spaces. Guys do too. His friends, his fratty friends, they would prefer to sit on outdoor furniture, trust me. And similarly, no one should have to ever, ever get to the point where the towel smells. It has happened in my life. You know what I mean? And I'm not saying, I'm not throwing stones in my glass gazebo. But when I've gotten to the point one time, like every now and then when it happens,

and that towel that you used a few too many times, and you put it up to your face to dry your face and it's got that sour smell. First of all, that's the smell of things not being okay in that towel anymore. And second of all, that is smell of things not being okay in that towel anymore and second of all that is a moment where like you i i feel desperately something has gone horribly wrong in my life i deserve better than this you are a man not a beast yeah exactly be uh be a grown-up now so that said, how many times would you use a towel before washing? I think

a towel that is used moderately, you know, in normal everyday light usage, and is stored properly between showers, which is to say, hung up such that it is not

folded in any way, but can, you know, throw it over the, whatchamacallit, the shower rod. Towel rack. Or the towel bar. Or a hook. But something in a well-aerated space. But especially if you throw it over the shower curtain rod. You know what I mean? So it's like really able to dry out properly and air out properly. I think you could certainly reuse it. And I would not make the argument that you should wash a towel after every use. That's just wasteful. I would say three times, three times is probably a good rule of thumb if you are drying your towel properly and airing it out between uses. But after three times, never mind. That's just, I don't want to be putting those skin cells back onto my body.

That's my ruling. What do you think, Jesse? Is that three times too many? Should it be two? I think, no, no, no, no. Three times is not at all too many. I mean, I think it would even be reasonable to change your bathroom towels out every week as one might one's sheets, unless there was some extenuating circumstances. However, and I love those extenuating circumstances. You know what I mean? You're talking about food fights? Bloody nose. I... You're talking about food fights?

Bloody nose. However, that having been said, I right now am so repulsed by the idea of only washing your towel when it smells that I am inclined to ignore my other instincts and just say, either you should dry your entire body using one of those Dyson air blades they have at the airport, or you should crack open a new towel every time you want to dry yourself.

Because only when it smells is really upsetting to me. I really love the idea of cracking open a new towel. Like, wouldn't it be great if towels came in those vacuum-packed tubes like tennis balls? Like, oh, I'd be so excited. Every time I got out of the shower, I could go... And then I was like, pull out an air-packed towel. The only problem would be,

what if you went to open a can of towel and a snake popped out? You'd go, whoa! You're talking about that old prank? Yeah, the old peanut brittle gag. Yeah, that old I thought I was opening a can of fresh towels and instead I got poisonous snakes.

I think that might be the one, I think this marks the inaugural one thousandth gentle lift of material from Paul F. Tompkins in my life. I think I have to send Paul F. Tompkins $100 now. Maybe $1,000. Next. Here's something from Noah.

Hi, next. Here's something from Noah. Hi, Noah. My parents sent the first season of Downton Abbey on DVD to my daughter Dara as a gift two years ago. The problem is that Dara, who's now 18, watches only one television show, Gilmore Girls. She starts from the first episode of season one, continues until the finale of season seven, and then she starts over again. She's never even removed the cellophane from the Downton Abbey DVDs. Dara is a very busy high school senior. She's the national president of her youth group, and she's on student council. She does a million other things. She's a terrific kid. But we think, well, they just said that she literally just watches the entire run of the Gilmore Girls over and over.

But with that fast-paced dialogue, you'll never know what you missed. You missed that that joke wasn't that great. Okay, I don't like the Gilmore Girls. Burn, burn. I don't like the Gilmore Girls that much, although I find, I think that there are a number of talented actors in the Gilmore Girls. Well, you speak to exactly what is at issue here, which is it is a question of personal preference. It is a longstanding precedent on this show

that you can't make someone like something that they just don't like. But you can occasionally force them to give something a shot. And as this was a gift, Dara has an obligation to engage with this gift, even if it is only to watch the first episode, so that she can properly write a thank you note to her grandparents. Plus, it's Downton Abbey. This is an organism

designed to connect with the brain of an 18-year-old girl. I know this because I am one. And I could not stop watching that thing. I don't think she has an obligation to watch more than one episode, but she's gotta watch an episode episode and she's got to write a thank you note. And you know what?

I think maybe she'll like it and maybe she'll learn that there are other things in the world besides Gilmore Girls, student council, youth group, and a million other things. Can I ask you a question, Judge Hodgman? How many times through an hour-long, seven-season series, how many times watching the full run do you go from enthusiast to insane person? And I'm referring specifically to this specific girl and this specific show. I was going to say say I can't answer that because there are only four seasons of Battlestar Galactica.

But you raise a good point because there are only, I don't know, nine or ten episodes of Downton Abbey per season. Like this is a junior mint to her. She'll finish this in a second. This is nothing but a snack. Couldn't she watch Bunheads or something? Just anything other than watching this one show

over and over and over. I don't even... You had to bring up something I don't know. That's the new show of the lady that made Gilmore Girls. Bunheads? Yeah, Bunheads. It's about girls doing ballet and they're overbearing teachers and parents. They've got buns on their head. Is that really what that show is called?

Bunheads? Or is that Jesse Thorne's version? No, that's what it's really called. It's called Bunheads. That sounds like an exquisite Jesse Thorne joke on this show, but it is true. It is a hundred percent real. I've seen a lot of Gilmore Girls because my wife watched it from the beginning to the end. And yeah, I don't know. How many times did she watch it from the beginning to the end? Just once. She's not a crazy person.

Dara, you're going to enjoy Downton Abbey. Just watch one episode. Give some other things a shot. There's more Gilmore Girls. Believe me, I understand where you're coming from. I would just watch, you know, I don't know what. I would just read Watchmen over and over and over again. You'd probably be pretty happy in my life. But if I did that, then I never would have read Matt Fraction's new run on Hawkeye,

which I almost called Hawkeye. To be fair, if you read Watchmen over and over again, I don't think happy is what you would become. That's true. I'd probably start wearing a mask and wander through alleys. Jesse, beating up Reagan-era punks. The punk rock movement was really, really good for comics because they caused a lot of anxiety among middle-class America, and therefore you could always have street-level criminals

who looked like punk rockers, which is to say they're all white dudes with mohawks. Do you know what I mean? And that was the scariest thing you could imagine when you were 11 or 12 years old. Never mind the fact that it was absolutely, completely non-representative of what street-level crime looks and acts like ever. And it was just this amazing way for for them to have this sociopathic vigilante like Rorschach or Batman go down to the street and kick the teeth in of a bunch of people but have it not be horribly racist or offensive in any way because it was just sort of white dudes with mohawks all the time and I think they still do it in comics. Remember when in Star Trek IV, The Voyage Home,

Spock was like, hey, turn your radio down to that guy on the minibus. But the guy on the minibus wouldn't because he was a totally punk rock. And then Spock, I think, killed him. I don't think. No, he just nerve gripped him. Doesn't that kill him? No, no, no, no. That just makes the punk rockers fall asleep. Ah, I thought he murdered him.

It seemed harsh. To be fair, it seemed harsh to murder him. I know, and it was, but it certainly did draw, draw light on one of the great urban plays, which was dudes with mohawks

listening to heavy metal music on the bus. Yeah. Because all of those things go together. Hey, I grew up riding Muni buses in the mid-1980s in San Francisco, California, and I cannot tell you how many times there was a punk rock guy with a mohawk playing his punk rock music too loud on his boombox. No, not playing his punk rock music, playing like his Iron Maiden.

If we were to go by the movies but go on or was that the end of your comment no that was the end of my comment but i will add that i happen to know that in star trek 4 they gave him some iron maiden to play and the guy who played the punk rocker was an actual punk rocker and convinced them to let him play his band's punk rock music instead of playing the weird metal that they gave him to play that's not true that's absolutely true you just bunheaded me again from now on bunheading me is when you say something that is so outlandish that i presume that it is a an exquisite jesse thorne joke on a thing but it is true that's all real i i know a lot about star trek 4 well just about that one scene and then the other part where he goes where he goes hello computer he's talking

hello computer he's talking into the mouse he doesn't even know how to use a computer because he's from the future what and then he just sits down and he's like oh I guess that's not how you use computers I'll just type up this recipe for transparent aluminum yeah but you know he saved the whales so you gotta hand it to him he saved two whales

yeah well that's what I meant the whales the whales in question in the film Jesse I just remembered something what's that in all of the Star Trek movies including the new ones what is the capital city of the fed Trek movies, including the new ones, what is the capital city of the Federation? Or where is Starfleet's headquarters, I should say?

You know? I believe it's based in San Francisco, is it not? San Francisco. Is that also not your hometown? That is my hometown. And is that also not where I will be visiting on May 29th when I interview Adam Savage of Mythbusters at the Norse Theater as part of City Arts and Lectures? The answer is yes. I believe that is correct. Yeah, all of those

things are true about San Francisco. I'm not bunheading you when I say it's going to be a great time on the stage of the Norse Theater as John Hodgman, that's me, talks to Adam Savage about his life and career and the weird things that we like and magic tricks. You know, Adam Savage is a real fun and funny guy in addition to his entertaining television program. I mean, even outside of the context of his entertaining television program Mythbusters. So I think you guys will have a lot to talk about. He's an incredible, he's an incredible fellow who not only an accomplished sleight of hand magician, a juggler, incredible prop replicator. He gave me this intense,

like, like molecule by molecule, perfect recreation of the Schwartz ring from, from Spaceballs. It's like the guy saw into my very soul. We're going to have a great time and I hope that the people of San Francisco, Oakland, indeed all the Bay Arians will come

and visit us May 29th you can find out more about that and all of my upcoming appearances and there are going to be a lot more soon I'm about to post a bunch of them at johnhodgman.com slash tour or this specific event has a very appropriate bit.ly shortcut to it, bit.ly slash nerdsummit. You can also find a listing of all of our live shows at maximumfun.org, just in the right-hand corner, or the right-hand sidebar of our homepage, including not just

John Hodgman's live shows, but also a bunch of live shows for Throwing Shade on the West Coast in June. Fantastic. And Jesse, who was the person who suggested the fantastic name for this particular episode of Judge John Hodgman? Miranda writes, this week's title came to us courtesy of Corey Woods. Thank you, Corey. If you'd like to suggest titles for future Judge John Hodgman episodes and secure your place in Judge John Hodgman history, just like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook and watch out when we're asking for titles or follow me, John, and at MaxFunHQ on Twitter. I'm at Jesse Thorne. I'm at Hodgman, H-O-D-G-M-A-N. It's as

easy as that. And if you have a case that needs deciding, we're always on the lookout for cases. It's easy to submit your case. Just send it to Hodgman at MaximumFun.org or go to MaximumFun.org slash J.J. Ho and fill out the easy to use web form. And before we go, I'd like to thank Charlie Hankin. I don't know Charlie Hankin. I presume he's a listener to The Best Show on WFMU. Because I borrowed the music for my pop culture reference this week from his video animation for the Staten Island Garbage Rats theme. It's a really funny animation. You can find the video at charliehankin.com.

That's where I found it. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is a production of MaximumFun.org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support the show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org slash donate. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne, and edited by Mark McConville. You can check out his podcast, Super Ego, in iTunes or online at GoSuperEgo.com.

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