Judge John Hodgman - Visitation Rights

Episode Date: April 2, 2014

A man insists that his best friend abandon his daily routine and small-town life and visit him in the city once in awhile.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm your guest bailiff, John Roderick. This week, visitation rights. Kevin brings the case against his friend Ross. Kevin lives in Brooklyn, and Ross lives in Nyack, a small town further north. Kevin says he's tired of making the trek to visit his friend in the country, and that Ross should come to visit the city once in a while. Ross says things are pretty much fine as they are. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. You started seeing them around town the following autumn. People in white clothing, traveling in same-sex pairs, always smoking. Lori recognized a few of them, Barbara Santangelo, whose son was in her daughter's class, Marty Powers, who used to play softball with her husband, and whose wife had been taken in the rapture, or whatever it was. the rapture or whatever it was. Mostly they ignored you, but sometimes they followed you around as if they were private detectives hired to keep track of your movements. If you said hello, they just gave you a blank look. But if you asked a more substantive question, they handed over a business card printed on one side with the following message.

We are members of the guilty remnant. We have taken a vow of silence. We stand before you as living reminders of God's awesome power and Judge John Hodgman's judgment is upon us. In smaller type on the other side of the card was a web address you could consult for more information. www.maximumfund.org slash donate. Guest bailiff John Roderick, please swear them in. Kevin and Ross, please raise and raise and rise your right hands. You swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God, or whatever.

I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he is in no way a jurist, has undertaken no study of the law, is admitted to no professional association, nor passed any state bar, is recognized by no federal nor foreign agency, is recognized by no federal nor foreign agency and derives his authority entirely and exclusively from his status as a grandiose former minor television personality? Yes. Yes. Yes. Thank you, Judge.

You may proceed. Now, let me ask you a question, guest bailiff John Roderick. Did you add the former to minor television personality? Because I know I said that you should adjust the adjust the script to your own voice. And that feels like a John Roderick edition. I was improvising. I will have to I will have to find I will have to take that up with bailiff Jesse Thorne, who is away this week and next. So it is a pleasure to welcome you, John Roderick, my friend, collaborator, and inspiration, the singer for the band, The Long Winters, and the songwriter, rock star, raconteur, and host of his

own podcast, not on the Maximum Fun Network, called Roderick on the Line, with friend of the show, Merlin Mann, as well. Welcome, John. Thank you. I'm happy to be here. Now, oh, I'm sorry, Kevin Ross, you may be seated. For an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors, can either of you name the piece of culture that I paraphrased, well, nearly, very nearly quoted verbatim till the very end, and identify its source? I can't. I can either or no. You can either? You cannot either? I cannot either. Okay, good. I just wanted to make sure I heard you. Kevin and Ross,

you are both out. Out of the immediate summary judgment game. What about you, John Roderick? Did you catch it? Was it from Tripods? Oh, wow. It could have been, right? You're talking about the famous series of young adult dystopian novels ahead of their time that Amy Mann clued us into. The Tripod series by, what's that guy's name? John Christopher, 1967. Look it up, everybody. But I am recommending this week a different novel

called The Leftovers, a different kind of post-apocalyptic novel by Tom Parada, my friend and other inspiration, the literary genius and author of Little Children and Election, among others. He wrote this book called The Leftovers about a suburban town where indeed the whole world, suddenly a rapture-like event happens where millions of people just disappear in front of their family members' eyes. No one knows exactly what happened. No one knows for sure if it's the rapture or what and the aftermath thereof. It is being made currently into a television show for HBO, where Tom is working with other friend of the show, Damon Lindelof, the co-creator of Lost. And the pilot was filmed last summer, directed by a friend of the show, though he doesn't know it, Peter Berg, who owns two copies of Dune. That's a deep cut for those of you who read my second book.

In a little town called Nyack, New York. Uh-huh. Now you catch the chain of events that brought me to that. John Roderick, I just saw Tom Perotta at the Game of Thrones premiere last week. That's all I have to say. I've purchased a copy of Game of Thrones premiere last week. That's all I have to say.

I've purchased a copy of Game of Thrones so that I can be up to speed when we meet George R.R. Martin in Santa Fe later this year. June 2nd this year, John Roderick and I will be at the Cocteau Theater in Santa Fe with George R.R. Martin in attendance. All right, that was it. That was a good podcast, everybody.

Goodbye. Anything you guys want to plug before we go? Okay. Sorry, Kevin, you bring the case against Ross, uh, because Ross has moved from New York city to Nyack. Is that correct? Yes. He moved, um, quite a while ago, like almost like exactly five years ago, I think. Yeah. How old are you guys? I am 37. And I'm 33.

Right. You, you are certainly, certainly Ross's of an age where five years still feels like a long time. It's a, it's a May, September bromance. So you guys know each other, you guys knew each other in the city of New York City or Brooklyn specifically? Well, we met in Frankfurt, actually, in Germany. And then we met again in Berlin. And when we first were, our friendship was first blossoming, Kevin lived in Berlin and I, Ross, who's talking, lived in Brooklyn.

Are you immortal time travelers destined to meet once every hundred years in a different major city? Until one of you goes to die in Nyack, because there can be only one? What do you do? Why are you meeting in all these foreign towns, sir, Ross? We met at a literary conference. Kevin is a famous German author, and I'm a translator. And we met at a literature conference where he was reading. And we began our friendship as work colleagues. and we worked together a bit.

And then I guess first he visited me in Brooklyn and we had a friendly week that was both a work relationship and probably the beginning of our friendship beyond a work relationship. And then he moved to New York City a couple years later, probably right around the time I moved to Nyack. So am I speaking, Kevin, to Kevin Veneman, the German author born in 1977? Yes. Author of Close to, how do you pronounce it? Well, I never figured out how to pronounce it in English, but in German I say,

Jedenif. Close to Jedenif? Yeah. It was my fault for not transliterating it. Wait, am I speaking to Ross Benjamin,

the translator of Close to Jedeniv by Kevin Veneman? This is how we became, we connected, actually, we connected a little bit before we entered

into the working relationship where I'm his translator but that was sort of where we came to know each other. How do I join this relationship? where I'm his translator. But that was sort of where we came to know each other. How do I join this relationship? I don't know, John.

What are the languages that you speak? I feel like I have a lot to add. I don't speak German, sadly. That is sad. You should. Anyway. Okay, so, Kevin, you do have something to plug, which is your literary works. You're a novelist and a short story writer. Yes. Yeah, that is, that is true. And having,

I confess, I have not actually read Close to Yet and Have, translated by Ross Benjamin and published in English by Melville House Publishing, publishers of How to Sharpen Pencils by David Rees. But I'm curious about it. What is it about? Well, it is a, it's hard to describe. It's probably easiest to describe as a, as a singular historical event set in the past. And the event is a anti-Jewish pogrom, which might or might not be happening during the Holocaust. It's a little unclear. It's ambivalent in terms of place and time a little. And yes, go ahead. Did you write it? I did write it.

Because it would seem if anyone would know for sure, it would be you. Right. But I mean, but technically, I don't know. I like to present it as, I mean, I don't know a lot more than the text does. It is a fictive pogrom occurring concurrently with the Holocaust historically. Yes. Right. And it is purposefully ambiguous whether or not it is factual history.

That's true. Yes. All right. ambiguous whether or not it is factual history. That's true, yes. All right. And Ross, you are a translator of German into English. Yeah.

Okay, very good. So you guys met and then did you, in all these different countries at literary festivals, you were living truly the McSweeney's dream of international literary stardom, and perhaps followed that dream all the way to one of its many birthplaces, Brooklyn, a great literary town, or it established such a reputation in the 1990s when it was still possible for a writer to afford to live here. Now that is all done. Only former television personalities are allowed to live in Brooklyn now. And Kevin, you are hanging on by a thread. But Ross, five years ago, you made it out to Nyack. Describe Nyack for our listeners and tell us why you moved there? It's a lovely river town on the Hudson in New York in the lower Hudson Valley.

It has a sort of sweet, quaint downtown with shops and cafes and restaurants and restaurants and a YMCA and a library. It has a story, literary and artistic history. Carson McCullers lived here. Edward Hopper was born here and his house is converted into a gallery. Joseph Cornell lived here. Does it look like a diner? Does his house look like a diner in the middle of the night? Edward Hopper's house?

Yeah. Oh, yeah, it should. No, I guess that wasn't his inspiration. His birth house was not his ultimate inspiration. It's more rustic. That picture is called Nighthawks at the Diner, right? Isn't it? It is, yeah.

It's also the name of a Tom Waits double live album, but that was taken from the Edward Hopper painting, a very famous painting. And what city is that set in? I wonder, let's look it up. Everybody quickly, quickly,

everyone in their cars listening right now, pull, pull over and get your, your, uh, where do you think? I'm going to say Chicago. It's Chicago,

right? I think that's where the painting is. The painting is. Hangs in Chicago. It hangs in Chicago. In the art Institute, I think it's, it's permanent home.

I believe. The themes that may or may not be embedded in Nighthaw hangs in Chicago. In the Art Institute, I think. It's its permanent home, I believe. The themes that may or may not be embedded in Nighthawks are ambiguous. Boy, this guy took a page from Kevin Veneman. No, here it is. Hopper chose to paint a seat located at a sharply angled street corner rather than at one of New York's many right-angled intersections.

Oh, it's a New York paint. I'm going to say it's New York. So in other words, Edward Hopper was born in Nyack and then got the feces out of town as soon as possible. How much time did Carson McCullers spend in Nyack? Seven days? No, she died here. This was where she ended up. So Nyack killed her. Well, yeah, ultimately, I guess it did. Look, Ross, no one moves to Nyack because they want to live in Carson McCullersville.

That's something you find out later. Yeah, that's something you find out later and tell the people who live in the city to justify why you made the move. But there should be no justification. Your truth should be good enough. Ross, why did you move to Nyack? How many kids do you have? We've got a two-year-old. Right, there we go. We moved here five years ago, but with that already in mind. So you already know the answer. We were living in Brooklyn and started to contemplate what it would mean to,

we had gotten married a couple of years before and started to contemplate what it would mean to – we had gotten married a couple years before and started to contemplate what it would mean to have and raise a child in Brooklyn. And that – first of all, let's stipulate I always know the answer. In part because I had background information on you before I even started talking. But in double part because I can sniff out a dumb lie about why I moved to a place all the time. Oh, wait, you just asked me to describe the place. No, and I said, why did you move? And then why did you move there? But you could have described and said,

it's a lovely place to raise a family and that's why we moved here. You didn't have to go down this whole Edward Hopper rat hole to steal a Merlin manism. I think I started to assume a role for the tourist bureau of NIAC. Yeah. Well, you feel the need to justify the decisions that you've made in your life because Kevin, a current international literary star. And Kevin, are you married? No, I'm not. Do you have a significant other in your life?

I'm working on something. Well, we're going to get that sorted out by the end of this podcast. That's a very German answer. Absolutely. No. Ross, how would you translate into German potential romance craft? Potenzielle Liebes romance craft potential i don't know that's your potential is your is your uh uh journey right now in your life kevin so it is appropriate for you to be living in brooklyn where in brooklyn do you live i live? I live in Bushwick. In Bushwick. Yeah.

Coolstown. You are unmarried. You're working on potential romantic. You don't have any children. I don't. You don't have any pets? No. You have no pets. But you have a network of friends? Yeah. It's not a big network, but I do have, yeah, a smaller one. Yeah. You have a network of friends? Yeah, it's not a big network, but I do have, yeah, a smaller one, yeah. You have a small network of friends who are also in their late 30s who are living in Bushwick pretending they're in their early 20s? You know, no. Most of my friends, even those that have remained in the city, are married and have one child each, yeah.

So it can be done, and you're saying that your network is small enough that it cannot tolerate the loss of Ross. Well, yes, yes. Let's get down to it. You want Ross to visit Brooklyn more often, and he doesn't. And you want me to order him to spend more time with his old friend and his old life of indolent Bushwick flaneuring with you. Correct? Well, it's not about the time that he spends with me. I mean, like we do spend a fair amount of time with each other and we don't talk on the phone a lot. And I mean, but we only get to spend time together when I visit him and Nyack. And I actually enjoy going to Nyack. You like going to Nyack, but he doesn't come to visit you in Brooklyn enough. That is true.

Okay. And that is the substance of this case. Yes. How many times have you visited him in Nyack? In the beginning, I went, like, sometimes I would even go every week in the beginning i went like sometimes i would even go every week um in the very beginning now i go about once a month i want to say or maybe three every three weeks um i would love to go more often but it's i mean it's quite a trip out there so but um how long a trip is i tonight excuse me how long a trip is it to nyack 45 minutes well a trip is it to Nyack? 45 minutes?

Well, I mean, door to door, it's, it's, it's more to two hours. I think I take the train. Right. I appreciate, I appreciate that it is not a European style, super fast train. No, the train is fast enough, but then there's the subway of course. And then, um, so you were going once a week. And I used to go like my first year year you would stay overnight at their house yes hmm have you ever considered the possibility that you were being a terrible nuisance to this family no we adopted him

when he came to brooklyn okay he had a he had a tough time finding an apartment that was really hospitable in the beginning. So we wanted to offer him some refuge. And so did he stay with you when you lived in Brooklyn? No. By the time he came to the city, I was in Nyack. You've never lived in the same city together? No. No, that's right.

Yeah. You've never lived in the same city together. No. No, that's right. Yeah. Ross, how many times have you visited Kevin in Brooklyn since you moved to Nyack? I think once and not in his current apartment. We've seen each other in Manhattan more often. Kevin is a doctoral student at NYU and I would go come in to do something. And what would you do when you hang around, when you come to New York and visit with him? What do

you guys do? I think I only went to his apartment. I went to his first apartment to help him move in and to see it. And I came twice to that apartment, I think once for a bigger get together and once at the early end to help him move some things. I think we took him to I it. And I came twice to that apartment, I think, once for a bigger get together and once at the early end to help him move some things. I think we took him to Ikea. John Roderick, bailiff John Roderick. Do I have permission to treat Ross as a hostile witness? Yeah, I think you should drill down on him. Ross, I don't want to hear about the very specific dates you came and visited him. I want to get ballpark ideas of how many times you come to Brooklyn versus how many times he comes to NIAAC. Now, we know he comes to NIAAC five years ago.

He was there every week because he's a sad, lonely foreigner. And now he's expanded his circle of friends to probably three or four other bitter literary novelists, but he still comes up there a couple times a month. You saying you've come to see him in Brooklyn perhaps once? I've come, I'd say three times. Three times. To see him in Brooklyn. Now when you come down and visit him. Other times to Manhattan. All right, thank you. When you come down and visit him, do you bring your wife and child or do you just come by yourself? One of those times my wife was there. We didn't have a child yet. And what do you guys do when you hang out in Brooklyn?

You go to the movies. Do you go to the bars of Bushwick? Do you sit down and work on an exquisite corpse story together at a cafe? Do you do some translating? Do you do some potential Aliba? What may I respond? No, wait, Ross, you can prepare your response. Ross. Now I want you to come up with a word for potential romance craft.

I usually translate from German into English. I don't care. Okay. Potential romance craft without intention of consummation. What we would call flirting, but what a German would call some long word that goes on for 15 days, which is what you do as a married, happily married person out on the town with your German friend talking to young women. But in a relatively innocent or gray area sort of way where you might be flirting a little bit or they with you, but you know that nothing's going to happen. But you have your friend with you, and it could happen. Wingman-ing it, I guess you would say.

Just come up with a German word, an accurate German description of that. Now, go ahead, Kevin. Me? You had a response. What do you guys do when you hang out together in New York City? Do you act like 37-year-old people, or do you act like 33 you hang out together in New York City? Do you act like 30? Do you act like 37 year old people? Or do you act like 33 year old people? Or do you act like 25 year old?

We probably act like, I don't know, maybe like 50 year old people. That's what I was going to say. Do you work on that word, sir? No. All right, then tell me. Tell me. Well, the three times that we have met in Brooklyn, like Ross said, the first time he helped me move into my apartment. The second time he visited me.

That's acting like, first of all, that's acting like a 19-year-old person. John Roderick. Yes. I need an immediate ruling from you as a man of the world. At what age do people stop helping their friends move into apartments? a man of the world at what age do people stop helping their friends move into apartments well i do feel that some somewhat the fact that he is german mitigates this experience because it's i feel like ross was not just helping him move into the apartment but helping him move to america that's true yes all right and so that is somewhat of a that's that's that's not just like moving some crates of books that is like

chaperoning someone into their new american life which is you know which is a real thing apparently no one can answer a simple question anymore you're all german novelists it's all it's all it's it's all ambiguous it is a very ambiguous transition and I was still in my 20s at that time. Late 20s. Right. But I don't feel that helping him move into his apartment qualifies as like a social visit. I agree. Go on.

Kevin, give me another social visit. The second visit was when I had finally sorted out my apartment issues. And I was, like Ross said, I had invited a few friends. And Ross came specifically for that night, for that event. Oh, like for a dinner party that I threw. And we hung out that night. It was probably, I don't know, 10 people, maybe 12 people. Yeah.

we hung out that night. It was probably, I don't know, 10 people, maybe 12 people. Yeah. And the third time and last time that was in October, 2010, I think was when that was when both of them, Ross and his wife came to Brooklyn to go to a restaurant with me and another friend. And, and I think, in addition to that, we maybe met like two or three times at Manhattan coffee shops on campus or around campus, like Washington Square Park around there in Manhattan. Okay, what were your what were your apartment issues? You had difficulty finding an apartment? No, I found an apartment right away, but I, um, I did not have, um, safe hot water or heat. And I was, I spent like the first six or seven months of my stay. Do you mean to say,

do you mean to say that you had unsafe hot water and unsafe heat or yes everyone didn't have hot water heat or a wall safe which are the three things that i require of any apartment that i move into the problem was that every time i turned on the water boiler um gas leaked from the boiler or from the appliances around there and so which meant that i could not have hot water or heat without gas being all over the apartment. And I was spending a lot of time at the Brooklyn Housing Court trying to get my landlord to do something about it. And which was, I don't know, it was just frustrating and very depressing. All right. Which is a great introduction to moving to America.

It's like moving to Romania. Yeah. Did you move from Berlin? I did. Yes. I've never been, but I hear it's a fantastic city. Yeah. It's nice. It's nice there. Yeah. Nice. Good housing stock. I think it is very good. Yeah. It's kind of like Bushwick if Bushwick was a whole city. Fantastic. bushwick if bushwick was a whole city fantastic if bushwick was an entire city that had been bombed uh almost completely into rubble by the allies except for the germ the east german side and then

built again and now functions as a replica of itself and with about 10 times more electronic dance music uh so but now you have that all sorted out. Thank you for that history of your, of the gas leak in your apartment. You have it all sorted out. You live in Bushwick. Do you have a one bedroom apartment, a two bedroom apartment, an open plan loft? What do you got? I have a one bedroom apartment. All right. And do you have, what is,

what is your guest accommodations for, for Kevin to start making up for the weeks and weeks and weeks you came over to his house and dirtied his sheets and, and drank all of his coffee and Nyack. Well, what do you got a futon? You want him to bring his family and his child into, into your one bedroom apartment in Bushwick.

How's that fun? Make a case, Kevin. Well, if he wanted to bring his wife and the child, of course, he would have the bedroom, and I would retreat to the couch. The couch, by the way, is very, very comfortable. That is very gracious. Very nice to sleep on, and I'm sure Ross would enjoy it, yes. Is it a folding-out couch, or is it a... No enjoy it. Yes. Is it a fold? Is it a folding out couch or is it a.

No, it's not. It's not. Is it a, is it a, is it a Bauhaus? Uh, uh, uh, uh, fainting Devon. I wish it was no, but it's not. It's just an Ikea couch, but it's a very good one. Oh, I don't know if there's anything I can say after that. You want your friend to come down to Bushwick,

a grown man with a child to sleep on an Ikea couch in Bushwick. He can have my bed if he wants to, but the couch is just as good as the bed. I don't even want to hear about, about your futon that you were calling a bed. What do you sleep on, a tatami mat? No, I have a real bed, and it's a really good one, too. What kind of mattress do you have, memory foam? I think so, yes.

Yeah, all right. You're off the hook then. Okay. Ross, 2010, you haven't visited your friend in Brooklyn. Aren't you overdue? I do think I'm overdue, yes. With all best intentions, I have not managed to visit him in Brooklyn yet, and I think I'm guilty of that.

With all best intentions, what does that mean? That it's not that I actually... Like one day you get up and you're like, oh, I got to remember to go visit my friend today. Oh, I forgot. Well, for the record, it's not as if Kevin has been inviting me on a weekly or even monthly basis.

Why don't you come over to Brooklyn on Saturday? And I've been saying no. It's that I think we've been in this kind of habit because of our history of him sort of escaping. I appreciate that Habsburg court protocol requires a written invitation, an engraved written invitation for you to come visit your friend

who obviously wants you to come visit him. I want to see, I genuinely want to see his neighborhood. I lived in Brooklyn. I never was in Bushwick. I lived in Carroll gardens and I want to see what it's like to live in Bushwick. I want to, I, I genuinely do want to, um, uh, I don't want this part of his life to be a blind spot in our friendship. Uh, I just think this was the first two years I've had my kid. And we've had a long history of Kevin coming to NIAC. Both of us are very busy. And when there's a free

weekend, it seems often to be the case that Kevin's eager to get out of the city and come to NIAC. It suits me well. Look, I was with you with your kid. I was with you with the habit of him coming to NIAC. Frankly, you have a child, and for the most part, everything gets excused. But just remind me for a second. Kevin is a novelist. And Ross, you're a translator. That's right. How are you both very busy?

Kevin is writing a doctoral dissertation, and I'm translating Kafka's diaries. Oh, really? Yeah. So that keeps you busy. And point of order. Yeah. Kevin would be operating under Prussian court. Excuse me.

I totally – I knew that I was blowing that the moment i said it but i but i also knew that i that i had uh the the very specific pedantry of john roderick to fall back on to support to support to catch me in my fall and i appreciate it john brandonburg corp i do i do apologize how would you have restated that joke me no never mind good we all got i think prussian was prussian was correct yeah prussian very good yeah um all right uh kevin yes you want me to order this guy to go visit you make a case make your case tell him what a great weekend you're gonna have well you know i like to point out that i'm you know not not mad

or anything and i don't think that i seem eerily calm to me i i am very calm because, like Ross pointed out, this is not something that we've been fighting about for a long time. And also, it's not, I want to point out, because I, like whatever, needed more of his attention. I get quite a lot of attention from him. I just sometimes think that it would be good for him to maybe, I don't know, get out of his comfort zone, travel to Brooklyn, spend a weekend with me. Maybe we would go to the movies or see some art, or maybe we would just, I don't know, go to a bar even. I don't even go to bars, but I think Ross enjoys bars and we would do something like that. Something, I guess, very simple and nothing overly exciting, but something different, maybe, and something that he does not get to do on a regular basis up in Nyack. You are the one, you are apparently, you and I share a somewhat different opinion and theory when it comes to telling stories. For you, specificity is not the soul of narrative.

when it comes to telling stories for you, specificity is not the soul of narrative. You want to leave everything, every opportunity on the table, but you are willing to at least endure a bar for your friend. You have not made a very strong case other than moral rights, droit moral, as they say in the Prussian court. But you

have not really laid, you've not really set the table for what an awesome weekend, what an awesome Bushwick getaway the two of you are going to enjoy. Well, I have to interject again that he is fighting against a Teutonic history

of emotional reticence right it is in his german nature to equivocate and remain calm even as his emotions are boiling inside so what he's saying which is i'm not really angry it doesn't matter to me. If he were to come, we would have that. We might go to a bar. We might do whatever pleases him. Right. Really masks.

I am really upset, and I want to see my friend, and I have a very specific bar in mind that I'm going to go to. But the thing is, he is unconscious of that inner life, And so he really is expressing what he thinks are his feelings. Oh, I see. Maybe it's just, if I may interject, maybe... You know, I don't have that many awesome and exciting weekends here myself. It was not that I, you know, I'm pretty quiet. And I usually just, on Fridays, I might go see some art. And on Saturdays, I stay in and work. And I have, to Fridays, I might go see some art. And on Saturdays,

I stay in and work. And I have, to be honest, I yeah, like I said, I don't I don't spend crazy weekends out in Bushwick. And I might have to do some research and maybe more accurately plan a weekend for us if Ross were to come at any point. And it just probably, yeah, you'd have to study some productivity tables. You'd need to look at some natural resource geological surveys. I understand. By the way, yeah. Yeah.

Look, you don't have to plan a fancy pants weekend. You're not inviting me to come hang out with you in Bushwick. Though, by the way, I'll be there. Great. I look forward. Just to say to your old friend i would like you to visit i miss you we'll have a good time and maybe we'll go see this art exhibit that i was thinking of what do you think friend like what art exhibit would you take him to see

give me something here kevin or you're going to be alone in Bushwick forever. Well, Ross likes the Hudson River School a lot. I take an interest in the Hudson River School, too. Yeah, he lives on the Hudson River. I know. But moreover, I think we recently talked about the single one African-American member of the Hudson River School, Robert S. Duncanson, in whose work we're both very interested in. And I think I would take him, for example, just an example, to the Metropolitan Museum

where there is one of his works. And we would probably go and take a look and try to figure out what's going on there. And for example, that's just something that I can think of right now. I love it.

I love it. Ross, that sounds like an amazing day out. I want to go. I'm absolutely interested. I think we all want to go now. You see how sometimes specifying something, saying that something actually exists that you can go and see and do or was real, entices the reader to want to learn more? I totally want to go. You painted a picture.

You painted a picture, a word picture that is very interesting. I don't know. I don't know whether it will speak to Ross, but we'll find out after I make my judgment. Ross, before I go into chambers, is there anything else you want to say? And whatever you say, can your sentence include the word that I commissioned from you for potential romance craft without intention of consummation? Oh, man, I don't know what consummation is in German. Kevin, you obviously don't know either.

Or else you'd have a girlfriend. I don't know. Why don't you guys work together while I'm in chambers and we can sort it all out. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Now, you guys, how do you feel about your chances?

Ross? Well, I didn't get to make my sort of closing argument, which is that I would like to retain the opportunity to go voluntarily to visit Kevin because I really think that I would. So I almost don't, to some extent, it wouldn't matter if he orders me to go to Brooklyn, I'll be happy to go. I'd be happy to go to the Metropolitan Museum. So I'd be happy for Kevin to win in that sense. On the other hand, I'd prefer not to be ordered to go and then I could do it voluntarily. And I'm a little bit, I suspect that I'm going to be ordered to go. Well, let me ask you guys this question. Ross, although you are obviously very familiar and well-versed with German culture and European culture, and Kevin, although you are extraordinarily fluent in English and also like a very cosmopolitan person,

do you feel that there is somewhat of a culture miscommunication, maybe at the heart of this, that Kevin's expectation of friendship is European and that Ross, you are, you have an, a sort of an American response to it and that that is part of the Frisian. That's actually pretty insightful. i could be sensitive to that but i feel like i my conception is that it isn't so different from kevin's i i think it is right to have some sort of reciprocity that may well be a more european

you know americans can be a little more casual about stuff like that sometimes and think, well, whatever, however it works, it works. But I think I would fall more into the European camp, but I've just kind of failed to live up to it so far. I wouldn't know if there are specific differences between American and European conceptions of friendship and anyway I'd like to point out that Ross is a pretty great friend I mean and apart from his failure to visit me

but yeah but otherwise yeah sure that I mean one of those components is maybe that European friendships have a more formal component. That American friendships are characterized by this casualness that Ross is saying, and that in Europe there's just this little extra bit of formality to things that doesn't even rise to the level of conscious awareness, but is part of the expectation. I think it's fair to say that in Germany, if someone's your friend,

that there's a certain degree of loyalty that's immediately expected and that most people will also make an effort to live up to that I think an American might feel that they can be more blase and not follow through, maybe not be as reliable. But there's a certain expectation of dependability, I think. That was my experience in Germany, but I thought that suited me better than the American model that here I've always been wondering, well, if someone doesn't call me back, what does that mean? And that it was very reassuring when I lived in Berlin for a time that, you know, if I knew someone was my friend, I could be sure they would call me back.

They would visit me. Right. this at me right kevin there's this uh there's this aspect to your case that also is um like you you seem to have a desire on behalf of ross that he not disappear all the way into his mossy hobbit hole but that that he remains somewhat an active participant in the adult world. And how much of that do you feel is real altruism on Ross's behalf, and how much of it is just selfish desire for his time couched in a clever argument.

Well, I think, yeah, that is actually what I was trying to say earlier. I'm the main reason for why I brought this case before the court is that I really would like him to be maybe like a bit more varied in his activities or like maybe kind of like every once in a while have the courage maybe even to venture out more often and see something different every once in a while. And maybe thereby not only add to his life, but also to our friendship, a different component.

Which is why I agree to what Ross said earlier when he said that he would actually prefer not to be ordered to visit me because somehow I don't want him to be ordered to visit me either. I guess I would like him to be ordered to leave his comfort zone more often than he does. Well, these were all very thoughtful answers.

We'll be back in just a moment with Judge John Hodgman's decision. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org. And they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh, boy, that would be fantastic. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In.

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the name of the diner, or excuse me, the name of the Edward Hopper painting is Nighthawks, period. Not Nighthawks at the diner. That's on me. I don't think there's a period at the end of it, Frank. Oh, another one. Another pedant. Nighthawks at the Diner was Tom Waits' own little riff on that. So now we've got that out of the way regarding Nyack's favorite son, Edward Hopper.

Let me say there is nothing wrong with Nyack. I have never been there. I am sure it is a wonderful town. I have heard lovely things about it. Carson McCullers fans from Japan flock there every summer, I'm sure, and take great tour buses around, take pictures of the wonderful sights. That's a very oblique reference to the insane appreciation for Anne of Green Gables

that Japanese school children have that bring them to Prince Edward Island every summer. It's very weird. It's an obsession. In any case, and I'm sure that you've built a wonderful life for yourself there,

Ross, with your wife. And you have a son, did you say a two-year-old son? That's right. And what is his name? John Hodgman uh we didn't think of that it's aaron after my my grandfather well there's still he's he probably doesn't know his own name yet so you can still change it and i should mention my my little dog

alvy too as part of the family no thank you okay not interested but, you got a lovely life up there with your wife and your baby and your dog. And you have this wonderful German friend who comes up andwick wasn't able to accept that you had matured, married, grown up and moved out old days, to try to recapture something. But in talking to you both, I realized it's not the case at all. You're both mature dudes who are different places in your life, but they're not that asymmetrical that you can't enjoy a friendship together. And the real problem here, simply, Ross, is that you've't enjoy a friendship together and the real problem here simply ross is that you've been a terrible friend sorry you've been a terrible friend because you're letting even though even though you have the uh uh the most important and and and and by far ironclad excuse of all time i have a a little baby, or a young child in this case, a toddler,

and you can get out of all social obligations if you so wish. It is nonetheless true that you do yourself, you do your friendship and yourself a disservice if you do not maintain contact with the humans in your life who do not have children. Now, this isn't to say that you should be down in the city every weekend, but you have failed to visit your friend in Brooklyn for four years since 2010. And that baby has only been around for two years. And frankly, your argument about how busy you both are holds about as much water as a sieve.

As far as I'm concerned, you have to appreciate that as gracious. Now you understand as gracious and non-confrontational as Kevin is. He does not want to come up to nyack and just watch binge watch walking dead every weekend with you and your wife he wants to go see art at the metropolitan museum of same and i would argue that it is important though not of most critical importance the most critical important thing in your life right now, I think, is to balance your personal happiness, your happiness in your marriage, and your ability to be a great dad. And also to find a loving home for your dog.

But all those responsibilities are very important right now. are very important right now, but equally it is important for you and your wife, whom we haven't mentioned because this is the most romantic episode of all time, to maintain a remnant of your independent adulthood. Now, John Roderick and I are very lucky to be in the performing arts, and it is part of our professional lives, regardless of our domestic situations,

which in my case, I am married, and in John's case is as ambivalent as a Germanic novel, to occasionally swain around the country together, like lads, to go do a show, say, in different towns around the country, including Santa Fe on June 2nd for the pleasure of His Grace George R.R. Martin. among some of my other male and platonic female friendships that are apart from the friendships my wife and I have together and then the friends we make through our kids and so forth, they're an important part of my life. It is important to remember what it is within balance of the rest of your responsibilities to share a singular friendship with one other person and maybe go look at a painting together of an afternoon or remember what it is like to be an independent

adult so that you do not get totally lost in the wonderfully fulfilling but also consuming life of a young married parent. And so I think that it is imperative that you visit your friend, especially now that I have bullied him into actually making a plan. And I don't discount the fact that no specific invitation had been offered allowed you, within the conventions of American casual friendship friendship to just ignore him for a long period of time. But I think that it's important that this wake up call happened. Now, neither of you wish me to order you to visit New York City. And for precisely that reason, I am so ordering it.

One, because if I don't order it, I don't think it's, it's possible Ross, that it'll just fall by the wayside. And two, as a, as a lesson to, to my German friend living in Bushwick, that specificity is the soul of narrative, not ambiguity. You want him to, you want him to simply feel more inclined to do a thing, but one's nature does not change. One's life is not affected without direct action. It's like exercise.

It's like exercise. You know, we all want to be thin, but you can't be thin unless you go out there and run on a treadmill like a monster every now and then. What were you going to say, Kevin? I apologize. I think I was going to say that we have actually made specific plans for a visit last summer in August, I think, for a very specific weekend, like three weeks later, which was forgotten about at the time. By whom? But I have to admit, though, that was the single one. Who was it forgotten about? By both of you? Or by Ross and you sat at home? Must have been me, because I still don't remember this.

You sat at home quietly writing poetry, angrily. Yeah, well, that's all in the past now. Because guess what? I want you guys to open your calendars right now, set a date for the viewing of this painting by Robert S. Duncanson. Okay. Let's do it. Let's do it.

Okay. We'll do it on, uh, on Saturday. Let's see this Saturday. Looks good. You guys know how to wait. I'm babysitting my sister's baby on Saturday.

What about Sunday? Sunday. Let's do it on Sunday. Okay, that will work as well. But this is an overnight. This is an overnight. It is? Oh.

Yeah. Exciting. And I can't do it this weekend. I can help you sit your baby sister. Yeah, you go up at your sister's baby here's what you do you go up this weekend for one last fling in

Nyack and you take you take your babies take all those babies you go over to the Storm King Art Center I don't think it'll be open it's not open this weekend yet next weekend and then and then the following weekend I don't think it'll be open this weekend yet next weekend. And then, and then the following weekend,

Saturday night, you explain to your wife, you're going to go visit your friend by yourself. She's going to be mad, but you're going to make a deal. She wants me to, she wants me to do this. Oh, she does.

She's very supportive of my case. Yeah. Yeah. So then you just go and you're going to look at the Robert S. Duncanson thing and you're going to remember what it was like to be single and alone in the world full of potential Libus Kunste. And, and that,

and that will help you keep your life in balance. And then you will support your wife when it comes time for her to do the, do the exact same thing with whatever friend she wants to go gallivant around with. And I hope she has a more good. And I hope she has a more exciting weekend than you guys got planned, but it's cool for you guys. It's great. And John Roderick, you're absolutely right.

You should start bringing your child to the city, but to, to, I guess you would probably disagree, John, because you like to bring your child everywhere, but to I feel like it's just going to be a hassle and they're not going to remember anything. No, he's played on the playground in Brooklyn visiting other friends before. Oh, okay. remember, but that you, the adult, get in the habit of thinking of your child not as an impediment to living a fully fledged life. I think there is an emotional imperative here that involves you to go into that museum and looking at that painting. And then later on, you can bring your kid whenever you want, whenever you want. Also, it's good.

John Roderick, would you agree to bring kids to the city because it builds up their antibodies? Absolutely. Let them lick every hole in the subway and they will never get sick again. He goes to daycare too, so he's been sick for like two years. So tell me the word. Did you guys figure it out yet? Oh, no. Well, consummation, I mean, I could say

potential romance craft without intention of sexual intercourse, but I don't know how to say consummation. I know the euphemism. Say that. Potentielle Liebeskunst ohne Geschlechtsverkehrsabsicht.

Would that be right? What do you think, Kevin? That sounds about right. That's our next Judge John Hodgman t-shirt. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules in favor of Kevin. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Wow, Kevin. Now, how do you feel about the judge's decision? I feel pretty good. I have to admit, I did not catch the date that we have settled on for Ross's visit, but I look forward to it. April 5th, I think it is. April 5th, we are all, the entire internet now is registering this. April 5th.

Meet us at the American Galleries at the Metropolitan Museum on that Saturday. Now, Ross, how do you feel about having been ordered to socialize? Well, I do agree with that it will be good for me. I'm glad that now there is a concrete date and we're definitely doing it and that it will no longer hang over as a neglect or a failure on my part, on my side of the friendship.

But I do feel deprived of the opportunity to have, and I guess I was just too late to have voluntarily demonstrated this, to have voluntarily and I guess I was just too late to have voluntarily demonstrated this, to have voluntarily done it for myself as well. But I take all the points to heart. The only thing that I felt sort of the urge to rear up against was the idea that I've been a neglectful friend, which I think Kevin would agree that, and I think one could take into account even from this podcast that I've had him over so often and hosted him and made him a part of my family here. And I think we have a very reciprocal friendship in every aspect other than the visiting.

But maybe that's all that the judge meant. Yeah. I think that's all that he meant. Yeah. that visiting is like obviously key to your friendship and that you have now the opportunity to instigate regular visitation on your own accord after this one court mandated one compulsory visit right compulsory art show all right well thank you thank you both for being guests on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney.

I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace, because, yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky Let me give it a try Okay If you need a laugh and you're on the go Call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I It'll never fit No, it will Let me try If you need a laugh and you're on the go Try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O

We are so close Stop podcasting yourself A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh, and you're on the go. Hi, John. Oh, hey, John. Guten Tag. Guten Morgen.

Guten Morgen. And much tardes to you. Morgan, and much tardes to you. I can't believe you don't speak German, John, with your interest in the Second World War. You've probably picked up quite a bit just from reading the sides of aeroplanes and U-boats. Yeah, I do have quite a bit of casual German, and I really aspired to learn to speak the language. It's probably my favorite of the European languages, and I just never – I didn't learn that about it until late, and I never have undertaken a concentrated study of it. But I love the culture.

I have never been to Berlin, and I would love to go. I hear it's fantastic. Oh, my God. It really is fantastic. Wow. It really is great. Well, let's go together. Let's go right now.

Hey, I know. Why don't we go to Berlin? Let's do that. It'll be like a road movie, a road show. We have nothing else to do right now at all. So here I go. Okay, well, let's clear this docket first. Oh, I forgot about the docket!

We can't go to Berlin! Yeah. Fine. Justice comes first. Beteschen. Okay, lost. All right, well, so let's get this docket done, and then we'll go to Berlin. Okay.

All right, Dougald writes. Dougald. Douglas. Dougald. Dougald. Dougald. Dougald. You say that as though Dougald is more obvious a pronunciation than Dougald. D-O-U-G-A-L-D Lamont.

Dougald Lamont of Winnipeg. Oh, it's a Canadian name, so of course it's pronounced Dougald. Yeah, I just saw him in Winnipeg last Saturday. Dougald. Dougald. Dougald.

And Dougie would be the diminutive. Or Dougie. Or Dougie. So then it's Dougald. Why don't we just hear what he has to say? All right. Dougald says, As a Winnipeg pedant, I am compelled to explain the etymology for Winnie the Pooh,

which you addressed in the docket clearing segment of the episode titled Honk If You Love Justice. The name Winnie comes from a real bear named Winnipeg. Lieutenant Harry Colburn was on his way to the Great War on a troop train when he picked up an orphaned bear cub in White River, Ontario. Picked up an orphaned bear cub, eh? Yeah. Sure. Mm-hmm. Anyway, he took it with him to England. You would be arrested for that

these days. You would be, and that is, you know, Ontario during the Great War was a lawless country. Alright, let's hear the rest of this story spun by Dougald. Yeah. Lieutenant Harry Colburn took the bear with him to England, where Winnie ended up in the London Zoo,

where she was a favorite of children for years, including A.A. Milne's actual child, Christopher Robin. Okay, wait a minute. So, Lieutenant Harry Colborne was on his way to the Great War. Right. Stole a bear. Wait, he was on a troop train. And he's like,

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Stop the troop train. Stop the train! Look at that bear! And they said yes. And he went out and he got this bear cub. He was a lieutenant, after all. And then went out and he got this bear cub. He was a lieutenant after all. And then he took it with him to England, naming it Winnie after his hometown of Winnipeg.

The bear was never in Winnipeg. And then he donated it to the London Zoo, presumably because someone finally told him, hey, we need you to fight in this war. Stop hanging around the bear. You can't bring a bear with you. In any case, Doogie continues. When I first heard this story, I refused to believe it.

But proof is available in the form of the non-Disney copyright infringing film, A Bear Called Winnie. What? It stars Michael Fassbender, Stephen Fry, and in the role of Winnie, the black bear from The Sopranos, whose day rate was only exceeded by Fry's. All right, so this is a fictional film that he's offering as proof, a fictionalized film. No, I've looked it up. It's real.

It's real, and I confirmed it with Stephen Fry. Wow. I'm always looking for a reason to write stephen fry a letter he always yeah he always he always writes me back very quickly very graciously with the with the undercurrent of please stop writing hey pal it's your good pal john hodgman hey remember that time i was i was on your tv show qi and i didn't say anything well guess what? A Canadian wrote me to tell me that he was your stand-in on an obviously fictional film about a non-Winnie the Pooh. And he wrote back, he said, yes, and it starred Michael Fassbender in an early role, and I urge you to miss it. His precise words.

His precise words. Well, so back to Doogie. He says, I was a stand-in for Fry on this film shoot and sat next to Michael Fassbender at lunch. He was very nice. The photo is included. We're going to put that up on the blog of Dougald Lamont, dressed as Stephen Fry might have dressed had he been a zookeeper in London in the, I guess, 20s.

Teens. Teens, late teens. Well, wait a minute. Is it about the war or is it about the – No, this is after the war, I think. Who knows? I don't know. You know, my knowledge of London zookeeper uniform insignias has really rather fallen by the wayside.

So I don't know what style he's wearing, but I can tell you that I met Dougal Lamont after exchanging information with him on Twitter for years. When I went to Winnipeg just, just recently to, to, to speak at the, to be interviewed on stage by Bill Richardson at the MTC warehouse theater in Winnipeg, I had a wonderful time. Dougal Lamont is a perfect stand-in for Stephen Fry, exact height. And we all went out and had drinks after at a lovely Winnipegian bar,

and it was a terrific time in the Great North. I really hope to do a real tour of Canada one of these days because I love Canada. I only have two more provinces and three territories to visit before I've seen them all and then I get free health care. But in the meantime, you can find out more of my upcoming live appearances. I'm getting the plug in early here, John. JohnHodgman.com slash tour. I have upcoming big shows at Largo in Los Angeles and Durham, North Carolina, in Akron, Ohio. And at all of these shows, I will be meeting, signing, and maybe even whining with you folks after the show.

So I hope you will come by, including the show we mentioned earlier, John, you and me going to Santa Fe, New Mexico on June 2nd, the day before my birthday, to perform for an audience of George R.R. Martin and whatever other people show up. I can't wait for the show, although the onus is on me to read this, perform for an audience of George R.R. Martin and whatever other people show up. I can't wait for the show, although the onus is on me to read this Lord of the Rings style page turner Game of Thrones. It's not Lord of the Rings style. So that I'm not standing there making fox passes as I try to talk to George R.R. Martin about a book that I'm sure

everyone he meets adores and lauds. So I don't want to be the fool that stands there and says, are there hobbits? And then everyone glowers at me. Two things, John. One is, I don't want to oversell it

because I would hate it if you didn't like this book. But these books are really great. And they are not Lord of the Rings, which I love Lord of the Rings. But what they are specifically known for is injecting the harsh reality of medieval life and details of medieval warfare into a fantasy setting for the first, arguably the first time in contemporary fantasy literature. And this guy knows his way around suits of armor. I have a feeling that from just from the point of view of weaponry and gorgets and,

uh, and murder holes, this is going to be really right up your alley. Second, I do like all that stuff. Second of all, you don't need to talk about Game of Thrones with George R.R. Martin

because when you meet him, you could just talk about burritos with him and he would be very happy. Oh, I like burritos too. That's why I'm going for the burritos. Medieval weaponry and burritos, that's a full weekend. And maybe a new Judge John Hodgman

t-shirt, I'm not sure yet. Is there anything else on the docket? Yes, there is another case or another, yeah, murder was the case that they gave her. Let's see. Lisa writes, my boyfriend Lucas and I have opposing views when it comes to parking. All right. I think you should always try for a good spot before heading to the back end of the parking lot.

Because you'll often get one close to your destination. Lucas takes the opposite approach and parks as soon as he enters the parking lot in the first, often farthest spot he comes across. I would like you to order Lucas

to take a different approach to parking that involves quickly checking for good spaces before resigning to parking further away. John Roderick, you have been such an able guest bailiff and this kind of question is, I sense so up your alley with regard to your intrinsic sense of vehicular correctness and desire to put things in order and to school fools that I'm going to give you first crack at this and then I'll tell you whether I agree with you or not. you or not well as much as i am loath to ever order someone uh to do to to adopt such a small new methodology

that was very funny the furthest thing from my instinct right is to order people to change their ways. But in this case, I feel like the goal entering any parking lot, the only goal is to park as close to the corner of the lot, to park in the corner of the lot that is as close to your ultimate destination as possible. So that when you enter the parking lot, you have in mind where you are going to go once you've parked. And then you go to that part of the parking lot and get as close to that, to the exit as you can be. To eliminate all wasteful walking. And the idea, and I understand Lucas's position that he comes in,

he doesn't want to, he's been frustrated before, driving around and around looking for an open spot. And so he drives in and it's the first open spot he sees, he parks. And then what he sees his job to be, which is to park the car in the lot. He has completed the task and he feels like he's done a good job. But in fact, I think he's misreading what his job is. His job is to park in the lot as close to where he's going as he can possibly get. And if that involves driving around the parking lot 35 times, frustratedly pounding on the steering wheel, screaming at idiots,

then so be it. Yeah, why would you rob yourself of that great screaming at idiots time? Yeah, right. You're there alone in the car or with your friend. The windows are rolled up and you're driving around looking for a spot and then, oh, you miss a spot

because somebody's ahead of you. And, oh, this guy, there's a guy that took up two spots. Like, these are fantastic opportunities to be yelling at idiots. And then when a spot finally does open, right next to the elevator, let's say, or right across the street from the spot, then you feel like all that time was worth it. Then you feel like all that time was worth it. I think that I agree with you, John, that it is probably worth at least one tour around the lot to see if there is a close parking spot available. I don't know that I agree with you that it is man's obligation to get himself wound up in a fit of rage every time he needs to buy a pint of milk but that's how i live i mean that's how i live yourself of the joy of being wound up in a fit of rage yeah that's how i live too so i i i concur with the judgment of the bailiff and i am

grateful that you were able to step in this time since jesse thorn was not here jesse will be back in two weeks time but in the meantime john you'll be back next week i hope that's right and we can my pleasure we can follow you at at john roderick on twitter and uh we can listen to your great podcast with merlin man roderick on the line how uherick on the Line. How? It's on the iTunes. It is called Roderick on the Line. You can find it on the interwebs. There's a Twitter for it, at Roderick on. Really, you would have to be trying not to listen to it now to have not listened to it by now.

It's the perfect thing to listen to while you're driving around a parking lot. I'll tell you that right now. That's right. It will support and bolster your feelings of rage. And it will give you a good outlet. You can turn your rage on us. It is. It's like a nerve tonic or an invigorating patent medicine

to listen to you school fools on that podcast. I always end up feeling like I am ready to take on the world and be more opinionated than I already am. And it feels good. Good. Who named the case this week, John? Well, we'd like to give thanks to Ellen Houlihan

for suggesting this week's case name. Thanks, Ellen. Yeah, thank you, Ellen. To suggest a name for a future case, like us on Facebook. Judge John Hodgman regularly puts out a call for submissions. I've been your guest bailiff, John Roderick. Julia Smith produces the show. Mark McConville is our editor.

Thank you. Thanks for joining us for the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Yeah, thanks. And also to the person on Twitter who gave me credit for going, oh boy. May I just say that I stole that from Tom Sharpling and the best show will return. That is all. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is a production of MaximumFun.org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support the show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org slash donate.

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