Judge John Hodgman - When I Say Justice, You Say Served

Episode Date: February 8, 2017

Chelsey brings the case against her partner, Kevin. Kevin refuses to join in during audience participation portions of live shows. Chelsey thinks it’s part of the deal they make as audience members. But, Kevin doesn’t enjoy becoming part of the show. Who's right? Who's wrong? Thank you to Eli Dennewitz for suggesting this week's title! To suggest a title for a future episode, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We regularly put a call for submissions.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, when I say justice, you say served. Chelsea brings the case against her partner, Kevin. Kevin refuses to join in during audience participation portions of live shows. Chelsea thinks it's part of the deal they make as audience members. Kevin doesn't enjoy becoming part of the show. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents the obscure cultural

reference. Emotion, agitation or disturbance of mind, vehement or excited mental state. It is also a powerful and irrational master. And from what bailiff Jesse Thorne and producer Jen Marmer eagerly viewed on their podcast Monitor, there seemed little doubt that Judge John Hodren was indeed its slave. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you

swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the obvious conflict of interest presented by the fact that he briefly toured as a member of Nelly's Saint Lunatics, specifically as the one that wore that catcher's gear? I do. I do. Very well. Judge Hodgman? Kevin and Chelsea, you may be seated.

Thank you for joining the court of Judge John Hodgman. For an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors, can either of you name the piece of culture that I paraphrased as I entered the fake courtroom? Kevin, you are the defendant. You have been brought to this court against your will, so you have the choice as to whether you will guess first or make Chelsea guess first. What

shall it be, Kevin? I'll guess first. All right. Very brave. Kevin, go ahead and guess. Well, I obviously don't know it, so I'm going to run with that. Yay! I'm just going to go ahead and say 1984. George Orwell's 1984.

That's the one you mean, George Orwell's 1984? The one and the same. All right, very good. We'll put that into the guess book. Chelsea, now it is your turn to guess. What is your guess as to the piece of culture that I paraphrased as I entered the courtroom? Um, I have no idea. I came prepared to guess a stand-up comedian because I thought that would fit really well.

And now I am drawing a blank. It could be. Who's your favorite stand-up comedian? Um, Tig Notaro? Tig Notaro. Tig Notaro. Notaro. I'm sorry. Yes, she's probably one of my favorites.

We'll just say for the record that you said her name correctly, Tig Notaro. Yeah, how do you feel about Zok Galifianakis? I'm terrible with names. His full name is Zok Dok Galifianakis. That's fine. No problem. It's just the Judge John Hodgman podcast. After all, it's only got judge in the title, so I will judge you.

Please learn the names of your heroes. But I put that into the book. And now I'm closing the book and i'm throwing the book onto a fire because all guesses are wrong that neither one is correct i am very curious though kevin why you chose 1984 just feeling a little dystopian these days for any reason uh well yeah we'll say yes all right i was just trying to imagine something uh about emotion where someone might be standing in front of a crowd okay and and chelsea you guessed tig notaro yes sir uh the answer was not 1984 nor tig not Public, but in fact, the famous audience participation movie, The Rocky Horror Picture Show, which I bet, given the fact that neither of you claim to enjoy audience participation, or both of you claim to be introverts, according to the affidavit I have in front of me. You did not ever go to, just like me.

Have you ever seen, Chelsea, have you ever seen the Rocky Horror Picture Show? Yeah, I have been a part of the audience participation on that one several times. Oh, all right, stand by. Not I. Not, okay, Kevin, you're the one who really is introverted and really does not like to participate

in audience type stuff. No, I didn't even think the movie was that fun. Charles. Ooh, shots fired as people say all the time. But I mean, let's be honest, very reasonable shots.

And I remember, I remember as, as like a 13 or 14 year old renting Rocky horror from blockbuster video. Right. I may at rest in peace. And there was this extended montage of people saying they'd seen it 500 times that ran before the movie. Yeah.

And I thought, wow, this is going to be good. Then I watched and I was like, I did not know at the time that the idea was to meet nice people that you would like and make friends with them. Yes. Rather than to enjoy a good movie. Yes, that's right.

So those who do not know, because I kind of feel that Rocky Horror has disappeared a little bit from the scene from even 10, 15 years ago. Rocky Horror Picture Show is a cult movie. It is a pastiche, a parody of horror movies with a certain bawdy, ribald overlay, starring Susan Sarandon and Barry Bostwick. And of course, Tim Curry is the famous Frank and Dr. Frank N. Furter,

sweet transsexual from Transylvania, right? Was that what, do I have it correct? You're the expert, Chelsea, correct? Yeah, that sounds right you're the expert chelsea correct yeah that sounds right all right and one of the things about this movie which was based on a stage play in london in the mid 70s and was created by the dude who played riff raff i just learned that today of course now i can't remember his name i'm not going to look it up because we got to keep talking everyone else do that everyone pull over your cars and get out google right away uh is that it it it did not do very well in initial release but it's so campy and fun and weird that in midnight shows beginning at the waverly theater now the ifc center in greenwich village new york uh people would start to dress up as the characters and they created a whole

alternate script to the movie that they would yell at the screen and they would act out scenes and they would throw rice and toast and toilet paper. Like the joke, Chelsea, if I remember correctly, I never did this. You understand. I've only heard about this through legend from cooler kids. But at one point,

some character goes, great Scott. And everyone throws Scott toilet paper at the screen. Is that correct, Chelsea? Yeah, yeah. There are several things like that in it. And you had a great time doing this? Yeah, I thought it was really fun.

How old are you now? And how old was the last time you did it? Well, I'm 28 now. And probably the last time I did it, I was 19. Perfect. Where did you do it when you were 19? There was a theater where I come from in the Quad Cities, Illinois and Iowa area, that would do, I think it was a monthly midnight showing. I don't want to be an ignoramus, but you have caught me at a disadvantage.

What are the Quad Cities? I bet there are four of them. Actually, there are more than four of them. There's five. What? Yeah, I think it's kind of a debate on which ones are official. Which are the official ones in your mind, Chelsea? In my mind, it's davenport rock island moline

bettendorf all right shots and what's the what's the road i know shot more shots fired back and forth kevin do you disagree what's the rogue city that should be in in there or what are the quad cities as you understand them so as someone who's actually from the quad cities oh i can't wait to hear this the quad cities are davenport iowa rock island illinois moline illinois and east moline illinois and are any of them cities yes davenport iowa is the biggest city and then rock island Island and Molina are cities. That was just my coastal elite snobbery coming through. I apologize. Apology accepted. 19, I guess, is kind of the perfect time to go see this movie, because this is how the weirdos found each other before there really was the internet.

And by weirdos, I say that with great affection. And by weirdos, I say that with great affection. And in particular, the cross-dressing aspect intersecting with the Greenwich Village in the 70s at midnight. It was a place where people of different persuasions, different orientations, different interests and nerds and strangers and gay people and everyone else could stay up all night with each other and just have a huge amount of fun. And yet it scared the dickens out of young John Hodgman. I think they used to play at the Exeter Street Theater in Boston. I don't remember. But I know I never, or maybe in Cambridge, maybe in Harvard Square, but I always got scared to go. Because if you go the first time, what happens, Chelsea? I forget what the kind of initiation ritual was.

Yeah, there's a ritual. I had one of my friends, I know he got a lap dance from the main character, but I know there's something they all do. I don't recall. See, that would have made me prof... And they call you a virgin and they scream virgin at you. Which, when I was a teenager, that was the last thing I wanted to have happen. Because it just would have been so true. It made me so scared. So, you can see that this court is a little bit aligned with Kevin, because this dispute is over whether or not Kevin should participate in audience participation portions of various entertainment programs that you two go to together.

Do I state that more or less correctly, Chelsea? Yeah, that's correct. All right. So what's the problem with Kevin? You guys are a couple and have been for some time. What's the prob when you go out? What kind of things do you go out to see where Kevin just sits on his hands? Yeah.

So I want to kind of expand on just like live performance to also activities and events um right so for some specific examples of him not singing along doing calls and responses um the repeat after me and then the audience joins in would be at a recent tig stand-up special we went and saw here in New York. I'm sorry, what's her last name, though? I don't recognize. What's the last name of that comedian? Is it comedian? Tig what?

Tig Notaro? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've heard of her. So what happened? Tig wanted you guys to do something? Yeah, she wanted us to sing Yellow Submarine as an audience, and everyone did, including myself. Kevin, in that scenario, did not join in.

Yeah, and after the fact, just to kind of expand on this one moment that we had, he said he preferred to watch that audience interaction, to watch everyone sing along instead of joining in, interaction to watch everyone sing along instead of joining in. And I felt like that betrayed the audience and the social contract that we had with each other that we sing and kind of step out of our box because we're doing it together. It's a no judgment, judgment free zone. I object, by the way. That's fine.

Let me just jump in and I'll sustain that objection because I want to hear from Kevin. Let me just jump in and I'll sustain that objection because I want to hear from Kevin. But quickly, Chelsea, do I understand correctly that Kevin is a contemptuous space alien who is on this planet studying humanity? Or is he an actual human? You know, I'm not sure. I'm beginning to wonder in these moments. Kevin, everyone knows Yellow Submarine. Everyone can sing it.

How come no sing in this particular case? So in this particular case, I didn't say that I would rather watch the audience. I said I wanted to watch how Tig interacted with the audience. That was what I was more interested in because I am there to watch the show. But to be fair to myself, the whole point of this bit of the singing of Yellow Submarine

was to make the audience uncomfortable. She sat there and waited and waited and waited as the audience sang Yellow Submarine until people eventually just stopped because they didn't know what to do, such as the hilarious comedy of Tig Notaro. I just happened to be the type of person who got uncomfortable immediately

and never started. I was just the first of the many people who stopped singing during the performance. Bailiff Jesse, Tig Notaro is a friend of the Maximum Fun family, of course. Yeah, a friend of mine. Via MaxFunCon, that's how I first came to know her work. So my question to you is,

have you seen this Yellow Submarine bit? Because I have not. I haven't, but I know Tig, and Tig was, I think, a famous episode of my comedy podcast, Jordan Jesse Go, among the small group of people who listen to Jordan Jesse Go, is her first appearance some years ago in which she was essentially difficult and obstructionist the entire time to hilarious effect. And I assumed it was her doing a classic Tig Notaro bit, but it turned out that she just didn't know what a podcast was. So she is a comedian who ably rides the line between sincere and insincere,

and her comedy is dry enough that it can sometimes be difficult to pick out the tone. And in that discomfort does come a significant amount of the comedy. That said, it sounds like we've got a litigant who decided that his way of participating in that comedy would be

to obstruct it even more himself personally. To double obstruct. Yeah. To turn awkwardness against itself. Yeah. Like as though he and Tig Notaro are both wizards, that the core of their wands are from the same bird. Or another way of putting it would be as though he and Tig Notaro

are both the comedian yeah exactly that's a way that we say we're simpatico from now on anytime you feel like someone really gets you say you know what the core of our wands are both from the same bird so jesse thorn being a fan and friend of tig's would you say that kevin is correct that the intention of the yellow submarine bit is to is to make the audience feel uncomfortable and let's laugh at themselves for her own amusement? Or do you think she just wants people to hear the yellow submarine? Well, I would say that the correct answer to that is neither of the choices in that binary. I don't think it is for her amusement. I think it is for the audience's amusement.

The audience is laughing at their own discomfort. Yeah. And so if you are not participating in it, you are essentially invalidating the premise of the joke. Invalidating the premise, Kevin. That's a bold accusation from a bailiff. Did you invalidate that premise or what? I guess, I mean, to myself i did i i didn't

make myself uncomfortable by singing yellow submarine yeah i like all the academic loss that you've put on to this dumb moment at a comedy show but basically are you able to just say i'm i'm scared to sing in a group or i just don't like it? I can say that. I don't deny one bit that I just don't like to, well, it's not the singing. I just don't like to participate usually when it comes to doing something like that. Can you or can you not sing Yellow Submarine?

Can I sing it? Not at this moment. I'm just saying it's not that like you're ashamed of your voice. I don't know the words as well as probably someone else does. Let me give you a hint. A lot of it is repeating the words yellow submarine over and over again.

Right. But we weren't only singing. You know what, Judge Hodgman? At this moment, my daughter is learning to sing yellow submarine with her school's music teacher. Yeah. Yellow Submarine with her school's music teacher. Yeah. And so Yellow Submarine just reverberates through my house along with a variety of songs that have been written

to help her remember how to spell the names of colors. And it is absolutely maddening. Even just hearing the words Yellow Submarine is making my skin crawl. And I have nothing against the Beatles at all. Look, it could be thankful for small favors. It could have been Octopus's Garden. Fair point.

But Kevin, you can sing. It's just you don't like to play along in an audience. Can you articulate in the broader sense what offends you about being asked to participate from the stage? I just don't like to. Typically, if I'm at an event or a show, I just want to be a spectator. I don't want to be a part of it. I don't obstruct. I'm not a heckator. I don't want to be a part of it. You know, I don't obstruct. I'm not a heckler. I sit quietly and respectfully, but I usually just don't play along.

Have there been situations where you have been specifically called upon to participate in shows? That is, you personally distinct from the rest of the audience yes and i participate in that in that moment because at that point i feel like not participating is obstructing what was the situation where you were asked directly to participate and you said okay um i can't remember i know this has happened to me though Did your mind erase this because it was a traumatic experience? No. No, it's really not about like being scared or shy. It really is just that I don't like it.

When someone on stage says, all right, you guys, for this to work, we're all going to need all y'all's help. How do you feel when that happens? When you know it's coming? Well, I don't know. I usually don't feel anything like a robot i i chelsea are you sure that that that your special friend is not a contemptuous robot alien i am i am a contemptuous being sent to just observe humanity. Absolutely. Has this always been the case? Yeah. Well, I mean, I was probably an emotional teenager like we all were, but since then.

But then what happened? I calmed down, I guess. You went to Rocky Horror Picture Show and had your mind erased. I didn't go to Rocky Horror Picture Show. That didn't sound fun at all. Right. Because the movie fun at all. Right. Because the movie isn't good. Okay, we know your opinion on the movie.

It's all participation, which obviously I'm not really all that into. Kevin, has a musical artist ever asked you to wave your hands in the air? And did you? First question. Second question, in what manner did you? Yeah, what level of care? Well, I've never been asked to wave my hands in the air. I would have waved my hands in the air as if I didn't care,

but I've never specifically been in that scenario. Well, of course you didn't care because you have no human emotions. I do, though. I do, though. I do, though. Wave your hands in the air and wave them like you're a contemptuous alien robot from beyond. Then you just stick it straight up in the air.

You don't move it at all. Yeah. Well, don't do that. That might be misconstrued in this time and age. And any time that there's been someone on the show or on the stage that has needed audience has needed audience participation like like give me a beat and clap along i contribute then but i usually just don't

like to be a part of the show if i don't need to be if you feel there's an option to sit out quietly and and without calling attention to yourself, you will do it. Yes. Judge Hodgman, I am reminded of my college roommate, Nathaniel Chapman, a good and kind man and a gifted musician who had never been to a hip hop show in his life. And he and I in Santa Cruz, California, went to see De La Soul, one of the great live hip-hop acts, truly masterful live act. And I remember coming home with him, and he grabbed me by the shoulders when we got home,

and he said, Jesse, that was great. And I said, oh, I'm so glad you enjoyed it, Nathaniel. And he said, my favorite part was when they told me to do something, and then I did it. Chelsea, I have to say that Kevin seems to know his mind. He appreciates his own lack of human emotions. And he also appreciates that sometimes there's a contract that must be fulfilled.

That when an artist specifically asks for something and he feels like he will ruin the show if he didn't do it he will do it now i don't know whether he's telling the truth about that or not he says he'll clap along maybe he does maybe he doesn't but everything he's saying sounds more or less reasonable why is it unreasonable chelsea um for a couple reasons one i don't doubt that he would do something like clap along because he can carry a beat really well I think that that he feels like he is contributing to helping everyone stay on beat I don't know that he always contributes when it's necessary and this brings me to the type

of performances that aren't on stage but between like in an activity instead. So this fall we went to a corn maze and they took us in groups to like tell us, you know, how this is going to work and how to go through the maze and how to call for help if you get lost. Yeah. And it was like a young person. You know, not nine people die in every corn maze every year of starvation. And they're surrounded by corn. That's the weird part.

Corn mazes are terrifying fun. I love them. That's not eating corn, though. That's not eating corn. I don't. What's that? He's just sitting over there. That's not eating corn.

Oh, that's not eating corn. Yeah, that's decorative corn. That's maze and maze i got you i thought you had just sat down on the floor of the studio there and just started rocking back and forth going i'm not eating corn i'm not eating corn no that's that corn the corn for a corn maze is not for human consumption as bailiff jesse thorn said that's maze and corn but i don't think of corn mazing as a group activity particularly. Tell me a little bit more, Chelsea. Right.

So we were out in Queens, and I think that this one was probably just very popular, being right there outside of the city, easy to get to. Queens, which is Queens, New York, Queens, the borough of New York. Yes. Yeah. Also known as the Quad Cities. Go on. The Quad Boroughs. Yeah. Also known as the Quad Cities. Go on. The Quad Boroughs.

Yeah. So we were out there and it was a really long line and they took you in groups to let you enter to kind of control the crowd. And he tried to, I'm sure as it was his job, to get the crowd to be kind of, I don't know, hyped up or excited to go in after waiting for a long time. And while these things can be silly as two adults who kind of came out there and chose to do this typically younger or family thing, I felt that in that time when the person said repeat after me or I say this and you say that, that in that group, it was noticeable that he was not participating. Wait a minute. Wait on it.

Where in Queens is this corn maze? Kevin, do you know where in Queens? I'm not sure. Maybe we have to take a bus to get to it. It's pretty far out. I can't remember the name of it. Are you telling me that someone has a cornfield in Queens that they cut into a maze? Yeah, there's a little farm.

They'll take you on a hay rack ride, but you just go through the parking lot. They also have pumpkins you can pick up. It's like an event. But this corn is growing out of the ground. Yeah. It's not very big. It's a legit corn farm in Queens? Yeah.

Well, I don't know if they're farming the corn or if they just make it for the maize. We're from the Midwest, so you're asking us if that was a legit corn field. Yeah, well, I am asking you that. First of all, I don't know why anyone from the Quad Cities would want to go to a corn maize in Queens. Second of all, because I can't imagine. I'm thinking it's probably like two stalks of corn. Can you find your way between them?

And second of all, I have to say, Kevin, if, if you're telling me Chelsea that this, that this hipster corn maze in Queens had a hype man who's doing call and response stuff to go into a maze. I absolutely stand by Kevin's desire to turn my alien nose up at that business

just the maze i don't know judge hodgman i feel like if it's in queens it might be a really good hype man like who's to say that you know when buster rhymes isn't touring spliffstar doesn't work at uh local corn maze yeah okay i got you if got you. If it's Busta Rhymes, then yeah, you've got to do the call and response. But like, what was the patter to get you hyped up for the maze, Chelsea? It was thoroughly un-Busta Rhymes. And it was a safety demonstration.

Spliff Star believes in safety. What were the safety concerns getting lost and starving? And how did he do it through a call and response? I'm very confused. I think there was a funny thing that like you were supposed to say into the phone and set it back. I'm not sure it was entirely a safety thing.

It was just a rundown of what was going to happen. And I think that while it was goofy. Wait, where did the phone come into this? There was like little, I don't know, tin can type phones along the thing so that if you wanted a hint, you would say a thing to get a hint. If you didn't say that thing, you weren't going to get the hint. So like a tin can attaches some string, you pull it taut and you go, help me, I'm starving. Or I'm surrounded by creepy children. Are they supposed to be?

Yeah. And while we were not, I don't think, the intended audience, I think that we went in that knowing that we were not the intended audience, that it was for young kids. I object. Okay. Chelsea, finish your sentence, and then we're going to throw to Kevin's objection.

Thank you. Was that in a small group like that, I think it's important for everyone to partake and make the person who's working there feel comfortable. And yeah, and just help everybody out to get through an awkward but fine experience. What is your objection, Kevin? I don't understand anything that was happening in this corn maze. So maybe during the objection you can clarify for me. Give your side of the story.

This little presentation that she's describing was essentially a safety speech given for small children before we went into the maze. The reason that there was call and response is because the guy just needed to make sure all the little kids were listening to him.

Little kids get lost in a maze and get scared. So they needed to know what to do. They need to know when to lift their pole or when to speak into the can with the PVC pipe that goes to the tower, all these things. None of these things were of interest to me because I'm a grown-up, and I don't need safety instructions to get out of a 50-by-50 corn maze. I did not, nor did she, know what we were getting into when we walked into that line that we were going to have to do call and response. We went in there to go to a corn maze, which was only, we only even went into because it was part of the ticket. We bought the ticket, you get the pumpkin, you get the hay rack ride, you get the corn maze, you get the whatever else.

Right. What would be a sample call and response? You do the call and I'll do the response. Well, I mean, it it wasn't it wasn't so much participate with me on this because i'm truly i'm sincerely confused as to what the call and response was at the corn maze he would have you know said oh hey if you know and if you're lost lift your pole and you would say everyone lift your pole and say hey and then like so okay i got you right yeah this is not a very good example, Chelsea. It was the most recent example of a small group activity where Kevin felt like he was above the situation and...

Did anyone notice by you? Did Kevin make any kids cry? No, I think that I, and not that I feel like this is evidence enough, that I could tell that the young person doing it felt uncomfortable and kind of had to really get everyone to participate by saying things a few times or saying, come on, guys, when I. Has anyone besides you, Chelsea, ever noticed Kevin's lack of participation? Has this caused a problem outside of, not that your feelings aren't meaningful they're very meaningful but outside of your noticing has it ever caused a problem at a show concert corn maze

quad city festival anything no it would be difficult to say we're uh i would say we're we're pretty isolated we've been away from the Quad Cities a long time and we move a lot. So I don't- Because Kevin's constantly being chased out of town once they find out that he's an alien observer. Yes. So I don't have anyone else to back this very specific-

Like when you were at the Tig Notaro show and Kevin didn't sing along, was it embarrassing to you? Did people turn around and go, come on, Kevin sing? No. Okay.

Um, I feel like in those situations, whereas the maze one is one where I feel like he, it affected the mood, even if one person didn't say anything, but it also is something that I feel like affects me when I'm in these scenarios. Well, I'm feeling this is perfect. This is something that I feel like affects me when I'm in these scenarios and I'm feeling awkward. Perfect.

This is exactly where I want to go because as far as I can tell, the mood it is affecting is yours and your mood counts. So tell me and Kevin how you feel when Kevin doesn't sing along, literally and figuratively. when Kevin doesn't sing along, literally and figuratively.

Yeah, so I feel kind of insecure, I want to say, or like that I am now in this thing alone because now he is not participating. And I become very conscious of myself and how I am participating. And I think that kind of affects my ability to get into the thing that we are at and how does that affect it it it decreases your enjoyment of tignitaro yeah i also think it's a distracting to you yeah to me from what's happening kevin does that change your you're thinking at all about whether to sing along or play along, knowing that it detracts from your beloved's enjoyment of the comedy of Tig Notaro?

No. Not particularly. I think that she I find her human emotions to be fascinating for sure but and I will put them in my log of human states of mind but I will not respond. And I think that she's often just paying too much attention to me as opposed to whatever we're doing. How long have you guys been together? Seven years. Yeah, you're probably stuck together now. Chelsea, you would like me to compel, if I find in your favor, you would like me to comp kevin to participate when the performer acts for audience participation any other caveats nope just general participation i don't think he

needs to get up on stage just when everyone else is asked to do it as a group that he also do it. Uh-huh. And Kevin, if I find in your favor, you just want to do your own thing? I would generally like to be left alone, not griefed. I think the idea of being made to participate would be worse for her than she thinks. Because then I would be participating disingenuously and potentially actually start trolling because I'm not happy about it. What would your trolling vengeance be? Oh, I would be troll. Well, I mean, I wouldn't be trolling the show, but I would be trolling her.

How so? How do you mean? Explain. I don't know. It would depend on the situation. If she was, if I had to sing along because we were singing along, I would definitely be mocking her singing. You definitely be mocking her singing you would be mocking her singing or mocking the singing you're saying or just be just generally being a grumpy gus you're saying you're saying that you're

you're already uh uh many thick padded layers of ironic distance would grow even more deeply layered, such that you'd come back around the other side, do the thing, but do it in a completely insincere way. Well, here's the thing. I think a lot of people actually do enjoy participating. I think if people didn't like to, it wouldn't become a part of the show. I'm just one of those people who doesn't. Kevin, do you understand that part of the social contract of these sorts of participation is that what gives people permission to participate in and enjoy doing something that they might otherwise not enjoy doing publicly is that everyone else is doing it. And you are essentially pricking a balloon for everyone who is around you.

That might be true. I mean, if the people, if attention was called to me and I could see. Do you think that the people who are singing along with a performer on stage, to take an example that's come up thus far, do you think that those people enjoy it in the sense that they would walk up on stage and do it if no one else was doing it? No, but I think they enjoy the idea

of getting to play. So in this example, they get to play with Tig. They're not just viewing. They get to be a part of it and engage with her. Do you think in part they're engaging with everyone else in the audience? I don't know. I don't know because I'm not one of those people. So I don't, because I don't enjoy it, I can't say. I think your presumption of the reason that people enjoy it might be off. It might be. and that's i could i could see that

but i know that my presumption that i definitely don't enjoy it is spot on i i will i will cut short the the the aggressive line of questioning from my bailiff jesse sing along himself in order to ask one final question before I go to my chambers. Has there been a time when you have been at a performance and been asked to participate and didn't, and then ended up feeling, and I want you to be honest, like, I wish I had. Um, I don't think so. Not necessarily in the way that we're talking about it today I think if

there had been a time where I would have thought that it would have been on more like I was personally invited or you know the person asked for a specific person to do a thing like come up on stage potentially in that case I might afterwards think that. But in general, you know, if it's just the whole crowd doing a thing,

I've never once thought that afterwards I should have done a thing. Okay. I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision. I'm going to take the trolley to one of these Quad Cities where I keep my chambers, and I'll take a moment to make my decision, I'm going to take the trolley to one of these Quad Cities where I keep my chambers and I'll take a moment to consider my decision and be back in a moment

with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Chelsea, Kevin, when I say hip, you say hop. Hip? Hop. Hip?

Hop. When I say hey, you say hop. Hip. Hop. Hip. Hop. When I say hey, you say ho. Hey. Ho. Hey. Ho. I've always wanted to do that. We'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about this case when we come back in just a second.

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Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. So, in the town where I was born, not Brookline, Massachusetts. I was born in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Moved very early on to Brookline. Jesse. Thank God we got that cleared up. Well, it's a different county in the town where i was born there lived a man who sailed the sea and he told me of his life in the land of submarines

it wasn't until this very moment that I realized that dumb lyric is about a land of submarines. That guy lived in a land of... Everyone had a submarine in his village. Submarines were like apples. They were falling off of trees. Submarineland. You had red delicious submarines. You had honey crisp submarines. And then you had yellow delicious submarines.

It's not even a world of submarines. It's a land of submarines. These submarines, substantially speaking, are stranded on piles of dirt. It's the worst place for a submarine to be. That was a good chuckle. Getting back to you guys. You know, I have long held that there is too little singing along. That singing along used to be a part of the entertainment experience,

going back to the music hall and vaudeville and caroling and, you know, singing in groups was a huge part of communal entertainment, whether the performance had a leader or not, that began to disappear as we got divided by all of our various new technologies and screens and books and cinema and everything else that once we were removed more and more from the person creating the art and instead were watching a recording of it, we were either literally isolated one-on-one with a screen or figuratively isolated within a dark room in which we are not

expected to participate that's what made the rocky horror picture so such a transgressive event when the audience started talking back at a screen that could not hear it the audience discovered each other in a way that they otherwise would not have. And thus the quality of the movie itself, which I think even the longest time fans of the Rocky Horror Picture Show would agree is not the greatest movie. those lines together, learning them, learning the tricks, learning the beats and being part of the show that gives a special warm layer of distraction to what entertainment is supposed to be, which is distraction. It gives it a moment of bright and fleeting meaning that doesn't happen if everyone just sits silently on their hands and that is why in my shows i've always you know i've always closed my comedy shows with a song for two reasons one because i think it

creates something magical in the room and two it erases the memory of all my failed jokes and unfunny parts in the show never no one remembers it no one notices that i don't really have a closing bit if you've got a ukulele song that pretty much covers it in other words if you could close with a dog act you would totally because people love dogs instinctively people love dogs but but we've become we've become removed from our instincts through years and years and decades of electronic versions of electronic media. And we become removed from our instincts to sing along through disuse, basically. And so when I start the sing-along at the shows, it's usually pretty quiet. And despite what my it's usually pretty quiet and despite what my what what my bailiff suggested i if i understood his line of questioning correctly which was perfectly appropriately aggressive kevin really

needed to be run down there but if i understood him correctly that that part of the contract is everyone sings along so that everyone feels okay doing it because no one really wants to but i have observed in many many crowds that in fact there is a small minority of people who really do want to sing along they really are ready to go musical theater exactly they're called yeah and and they're the ones who will jump right in and the rest usually need a little bit of coaxing and what happens in that moment when you coax someone into doing it is it creates something very very magical and everyone joins in and even the people who don't have a lot of faith in their own voice tend to seem to enjoy it or is that a story that I tell myself?

Because basically what the maybe what's magical happening is I'm making a bunch of strangers perform for my pleasure. The answer to the issues that I that I hadn't really thought of until I heard from Kevin on this one. It's like maybe people don't want to do this at all. And maybe the magical thing that happens in the room is that I have, through sheer force of will, compelled people to behave in a certain way. And that makes me feel powerful. That could be. Maybe Tig Notaro and I are both monsters. But I have heard from plenty of people who do enjoy it. And what I think was interesting about this case is that what I expected from this was that Kevin was going to express a kind of shyness that I would then urge him to overcome. But in fact, what I honestly became convinced through talking to him and hearing the evidence that it's simply not his bag.

He legit doesn't mind that it's happening, but personally doesn't have the emotional receptor for this thing. And as someone who appreciates and loves Bruce Springsteen as a person in the world, could not be a nicer guy, could not be a more accomplished artist who understands on an intellectual level his artistry, but for some reason lacks the emotional and intellectual receptors for a Bruce Springsteen song such that I would never, ever, ever turn one on. Sorry, boss. I kind of have to respect that Kevin just wants to do his own thing. And what really turned me on this one was this. At the very end, Kevin said, I might have regretted not getting up on stage at, say, an improv show or whatever,

you know, whenever I'm being asked to come up on stage and volunteer for that. But I've never regretted not doing something that everyone else is doing if I could get away with not doing it. Because Kevin doesn't want to be part of the herd. Kevin is a contemptuous alien from outer space. The only thing Kevin regretted was ever not getting a chance to get up on stage and get some of that limelight for himself. Be a star. So, I'm going to find in Kevin's favor. I'm sorry,

Chelsea, you just didn't demonstrate damages that had been caused by Kevin's behavior other than to his own soul. But my order comes with a price. I need you now. I need a volunteer from the audience to get up on stage, figuratively speaking,

and sing, We all live in a yellow submarine. A yellow submarine, a yellow submarine. We all live in a yellow submarine. Just the chorus. We all live in a yellow submarine. We all live in a yellow submarine. Just the chorus. We all live in a yellow submarine, yellow submarine,

yellow submarine. We all live in a yellow submarine, yellow submarine, yellow submarine. All right, you know what, Kevin? You did it. You jumped right in there. You were born to be a star,

and I'm sorry that I stepped on you and took a moment away from you. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Kevin, how do you feel having been anointed a star by the star maker himself? I feel pretty good. Hopefully that means I can just enjoy my show in peace now how do you feel Chelsea knowing that you're going to be pulling two people's participation load

anytime you go to a show in the future I'm disappointed I wish I would have made how I felt more prominent part of my argument you can't say I didn't give you a chance Chelsea remember when I said I wish I would have made how I felt more prominent part of my argument. You can't say I didn't give you a chance, Chelsea. Remember when I said, how do you feel? I know you did such a good job on my side, Jesse. I really appreciated that. I'm glad to help, Chels. Thank you.

Hey, you want to go to the De La Soul show? Yes. No, I know. I got asked about my feelings and I dropped the ball because I think I thought I had it. And that's my fault. So that's the ruling and I will respect it. Thank you both for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. It was great to get to know you. Thank you. Thank you. Hello, teachers and faculty.

This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. Remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Hmm. Are you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay.

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If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Well, Judge Hodgman, another thrilling and possibly copyright-violating conclusion to another thrilling Judge John Hodgman case. Judge John Hodgman. That's my favorite part of Yellow Submarine. When they do the call, it's like, In the Yellow Submarine. Yes, please don't sue us uh apple record slash apple computer slash michael jackson who i don't know who owns that stuff anymore uh we just we love about right we love the beatles jesse this week the week that this podcast is delivered unto the world, is the week just before Saturday, February 11th,

which, as far as I know, is just an ordinary day. Right, Jesse? No, it's a very, very fun day, at least in Chicago, in the Chicagoland area. Oh, boy. Yeah, we're going to be doing a podcast and festival, an all-day, one-day-only podcasting festival at Thalia Hall, featuring all your fave Maximum Fun podcasts, including this one, The Flophouse, my favorite. All right.

Stop podcasting yourself. Jordan, Jesse, go. Tight some fights and more. There may, you know, all the advance tickets sold out pretty quick, but we are selling some tickets at the door. So you might want to just give them a call or come by and check it out. Even if you can't get into the big show, there's a lounge there, there's a restaurant there. I really love this venue a lot. I'm not getting any money for this. I just like hanging out there and it'll be fun. Why don't you come on by?

Yeah, there's going to be a ton of fun. And if you want Very, Very Fun Day to come to where you live, tell us on Twitter, hashtag it Very, Very Fun Day, where you would like us to come, because our goal is to bring the show later this year to a few different places with a few different lineups of max fun and local podcasts. We're actually going to have the folks from the Magic Tavern there. They're Chicago based in Nerdette. a few different local shows in addition to all that, and a stand-up show with Dwayne Kennedy, who's one of my favorite stand-up comics in the world,

and Ricky Carmona, our sometime colleague here at Maximum Fun. Ricky Carmona. And Graham Clark. And I think, I can't promise this 100%, but I think that Jordan Morris' signature character, coked-out Michael Bay, may make an appearance. That's at Thalia Hall in Chicago, Saturday, February 11th. All the details are at MaximumFun.org

slash very, very fun day. Tickets available at the door. Jesse, would you remind me, where was it that I met the famous comedian Tig Rotarian? Oh, I believe that was at MaxFunCon. You're talking about Tig Notaro? That's right believe that was at MaxFunCon. You're talking about Tignotero? That's right. It was at MaxFunCon,

which that is in the past, but in the future as well. This June, MaxFunCon returns to Lake Arrowhead, California in the San Bernardino Mountains for a weekend full of fun activities, shows, fellowship, and

refreshment with your fellow MaxFun listeners and talent. And then it's going to the Poconos for this Labor Day for MaxFunCon East. Is that not true, Jesse? Did I get it all right? That is true. You know, I was just talking the other day with a big-time entertainment booker, and he was telling me that he was sitting with some people at a big time entertainment

venue here in Los Angeles. He blew their mind talking about how we had had Ali Wong on one of our shows a couple of years ago. Yeah. Crazy, right? And you know, Ali Wong came to Max von Kahn a few years ago. First time I ever saw her perform, blew me away. Now she's selling out 19 shows at the Wilbur Theater in Boston. That's the capital of Massachusetts and New England, Jesse. Oh, got it. And what county is that in? I don't remember. Suffolk or Norfolk?

Anyway, MaxFunCon is a place to see both the people that you already know you love and people that you are about to learn that you love. And also, like, genuinely meet them and be friends with them. already know you love and people that you are about to learn that you love and also like genuinely meet them and be friends with them like one of the things that happens at max fun con is there's only a couple hundred people there and about a quarter of them are performers and presenters so you'll just be sitting at lunch with uh ali wong or whatever uh judge hodgman bailiff jesse thorn it's a really special thing and you can find more information and get tickets at maxfuncon.com if we're having lunch together please don't touch my food that's all i ask thanks to eli denowitz for naming this week's episode when i

say justice you say served if you would like to name a future episode like judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We regularly put out a call for submissions. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash JJHO to submit a case. Hashtag it JJHO on Twitter. Join us on Reddit at MaximumFun.reddit.com and like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook and join the Maximum Fun group on Facebook. All of these are fun ways to get involved in your community. It doesn't matter which of the Quad Cities you live in, all are welcome in all these different groups. This week's episode was engineered by Paul Ruist at Argo Studios in New York City. Hi, Paul. Our producer is Jennifer Marmer. I've run out of things to say, Jesse.

So what do you say? I say thanks, everybody everybody for listening this week to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.