Judge John Hodgman - You Say Martucci, I Say Martucci

Episode Date: February 9, 2011

Sisters Carol and Michelle have a disagreement over the pronunciation of their last name, Martucci. Carol believes in the traditional Italian "Mar-too-CHEE" and Michelle thinks it honors their grandfather to pronounce the name in his preferred fashion, "Mar-too-SEE".

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, you say Martucci, I say Martucci. Carol brings the case against her sister, Michelle. Carol argues that their shared last name is pronounced in the traditional Italian manner, Martucci. Michelle disagrees. She says it should be pronounced Martusi, as their beloved grandfather chose to pronounce it. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Here comes the judge. Here comes the judge. Raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God, or whatever?

I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling despite his total lack of legal training, expertise, or other qualification? I do. I do. You may be seated. Judge Hodgman? Hello, Bailiff Jessie. Hello. What are your names again? Carol, Michelle. I'm not going to remember that. I'm just going to call you by your last name, Martucci and Martucci. The complainant, I believe, is Martucci? Yes. All right, Martucci, will you state your case, please?

Growing up, we pronounced our name Martucci, but as I hit my adolescence, and I think you're exposed to probably more people in the real world than people just within your own family, you realize the correct pronunciation of a name of Italian origin that ends in U-C-C-I should be Uchi. So Martucci is how I began to pronounce my name. And my older brother also began to pronounce his name. And my younger sister, Michelle, has held on to the Martucci. Would you just refer to her as Martucci, please, so I can keep it straight? Thank you. Okay. So she's held on to Martucci. Martucci has held on to Martusi. All right. Which is, I feel, incorrect, and it just leads to a lot of sisterly arguments. I see. And Martusi, could you please state your side of the story? Yes, well, it all started off the way Martuchi said, but I stick to Martusi. Thank you, by the way.

It is our name, and our grandfather chose to pronounce it that Thank you, by the way. It is our name and our grandfather chose to pronounce it that way as the American pronunciation because he was proud of being an American. And I think that, yes, we could go back to the way they pronounce it in Italy and how every other person

with this last name chooses to pronounce it. But it's our family and there's a little bit of him in all of us. And I think we should keep his memory alive and stick to Martusi. Okay. Let me ask you a couple of questions about your grandfather. What did you call him growing up actually? Grandpa Martusi. No, that's wrong. You should have called him Nano or Norno, like an Italian. We never did the whole Italian thing, but if it was. Apparently you didn't do it at all. Did you not have spaghetti and meatballs growing up? Did you instead have Italian bread hair and meat orbs?

We have a very Italian palate, thanks to our mother. Okay. Anything Italian in our sort of heritage or family, it comes from my mom's side because my mom is also Italian. Oh, okay. But it was my dad's side that sort of abandoned that and was very Americanized. Right. Starting with Grandpa Martucci. Yes.

Got rid of the nano, got rid of the correct pronunciation of his own name, came to this country to create of himself a new man. Yes. With a only slightly less exotic and foreign name. Yes. No one will accept a Martucci. I must be Martucci, like a real American boy. Pretty uncanny, my impersonation of your nano, isn't it?

Yeah, I thought he was here with us now. Is he no longer living? Yes. I am very sorry to hear that. Did he come to this country from Italy, or was he born in this country? He was born here. So when he was growing up, his name was something or other Martucci, is that correct? Yeah.

And I presume his name was not something or other. What was his real first name? Francis. And did he go by Francis or Frank or Joe American? Frenchie. Frenchie. Thank you, Bailiff Jessie. I think he went by Fran or...

Fran. He had a nickname because my grandmother's nickname was Tick. And what was his nickname? Was his nickname Steve Rogers, Captain America? No. Old, not foreign-y Francis Martusi? Yeah. So he changed his name, presumably in his own, I would guess, adolescence, because it sounds like something an American teenager would do.

Yeah. And gave that name to your father, whose name was? John. John Martusi? Mm-hmm. And then he had, with your mother, four children, right? Yes. And where are you guys in the birth order?

I am the second oldest. And I am the youngest. Martucci is the second oldest, and Martucci is the baby. I am. So the two oldest went Martucci, and the two youngest went Martucci. Is that correct? That is correct. That is correct. And now Martucci

is trying to bully Martucci into changing her name as well. Exactly. Okay, I got you. As an only child, I look at all siblings and realize you people are all terribly scarred. Whereas I am perfect and able to judge you. So Martucci, you say you became an adolescent and started liking boys and having complexion problems and realizing your name was wrong. Yes. Can you describe the moment where you awakened to the correct pronunciation of your name? Do you remember it? I guess I don't remember a certain moment specifically, but my awareness of it started with my older brother. You know, he sort of garnered the nickname Tooch because of how everybody pronounced it.

And I always looked up to my older brother. I mean, he was sort of a hellraiser, but I... Oh, yeah. The Tooch, of course. The Tooch was a total hellraiser. What a guy. It's hard to live up to the Tooch. So I think I always thought that was cool.

You wanted to be Tooch, too. Yeah, exactly. Around what year was this? Probably the mid-90s. So you're looking around, you're seeing bruschetta being sold everywhere, you're seeing Olive Garden's march across the land. What was once exotic and weird, which is to say Italian heritage and culture, so strange and alien, was now very common. And of course, you understood Martucci is pronounced Martucci. Yes.

You have some evidence to this effect. Do you not, Martucci? Yes, I do. Okay. Could you describe the evidence that you sent in? I have sent in photos obtained from the internet of Susan Lucci. I always thought it was Susan Lucci, but that's fine. Go on. Christina Ricci, an actress who is, you know, I certainly grew up with. You literally grew up with her.

You were constantly cruising with her in the Toyota Camry, trying to get into parties using your older brother's name. Hey, the Tooch sent us. It's me, Tooch 2 in the reach. And Bertucci's, a popular Italian chain restaurant. Right. Bertucci's, which was, I remember growing up in the 80s, because I'm an old man. They not only did Bertucci's was a big chain, but they featured in their restaurants a game called Bocce, spelled B-O-C-C-E. A terrible use of restaurant real estate to put a huge Italian lawn game in the middle of it, and they got rid of it. But as far as I know, they still serve delicious wood-fired pizza. Yeah. And so based on those things that I submitted, which are all American things,

there seems to be no American precedent for pronouncing CC as a sound like my sister does. There is one, at least one American precedent, not on Martusi. Martusi, let me ask you a question. You appreciate that it is very correct for CC in Italian to be pronounced ch. I do. Just as it is very common in Italian for a G followed by a backwards G interlocking to be pronounced gucci. Yeah. Right.

Are you familiar with the film Big Night? I am. So how would you pronounce the name of the main character from Big Night, Martucci? Oh, that is correct. Stanley Tucci. No, you're incorrect. It's Tony Shalhoub. But I take your point. Stanley Tucci is pronounced Stanley Tucci and not Stanley

Toosey. And that is why he's referred to as the Tooch. Martucci, you also have offered some evidence, have you not? I didn't submit any evidence, no. I believe, though, that it was mentioned, and we will enter it as evidence, that your grandfather had a license plate, did he not? I didn't submit any evidence, no. I believe, though, that it was mentioned, and we will enter it as evidence, that your grandfather had a license plate, did he not? License plate was M-A-R dot, and there was a T-U dot, and then C. And what state was this license plate issued in? Connecticut. Connecticut, an American state. And it was on his Crown Victoria, an American car. I was going to ask exactly what kind of car

did he drive. He didn't drive a Ferrari. He drove a Crown Vic. And actually now my cousin has that car. What is your cousin's name? Anna. Anna Martucci. Sounds like a bounty hunter. Martucci, do you feel that Martucci is being pretentious?

Kind of. Martucci, do you think Martucci should change her name back, or do you not care? I think she should change it back, because... What? I don't know. I mean, it causes for a lot of confusion, especially when we're out together, and people hear us pronouncing our last name in two separate ways, and they go, which one is it? More like, discussion,

not confusion. People are all thrown about. Can't sleep at night. Anyway. And you would say the same for the tooch, not Stanley toochie, but your own brother. Yeah.

You feel that everyone should be a Martucci, right? I think so. It's a zero sum game for you. Sure. Yeah. Why not? Well, I could make a lot of arguments, but Martucci, I'll leave that to you.

Do you feel that you and the Tooch have got it figured out, and Toos 1 and Toos 2 ought to be Tooch's as well? Yes, but I would be happy to agree to disagree. I want to maintain the pronunciation of my last name as Martucci, no matter what my sister does. And part of that is because I now identify with a Martucci. Everybody at work knows me as Martucci. All of my friends know me as a Martucci. You could have also gone out in the world and changed your name legally to Starlight Human Ear Necklace. And people at your, I don't know where you would work with such a name, your comic book shop or your tattoo parlor would call you that.

And Martucci, would you call her Starlight Human Ear Necklace if she changed her name legally to that? Yeah, sure. Okay, but not Martucci. That's enough. I think I have enough to make my ruling. I'm going into chambers to think this over. I'll be back in a moment. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman. Wait, Judge John Hodgman? Wait a minute. You know what?

I insist that my own name be pronounced properly. It's Judge John Hodgman. Look, I feel this personally. I don't want to say that this affects me. But, you know, my last name is spelled H-O-D-G-M-A-N. And I know the pain of people wanting to anglicize that to H-O-D-G-E-M-A-N. An entire county in Kansas did this to me and my family. And I don't like it. of people wanting to anglicize that, H-O-D-G-E-M-A-N. An entire county in Kansas did this to me and my family, and I don't like it.

This is meaningful to me personally, and I'm going to come back with a really considered and emotionally charged ruling that is going to blow your minds. But before I go, I insist, Jesse, that you pronounce my name correctly. Please rise as Judge Johnodgman leaves the courtroom thank you martusi do you see your sister's insistence on an italian pronunciation as a betrayal in some way yeah in some way because because it's always been the family thing. And my grandfather was a one-helper guy, and I think we should have some respect for him. He was funny. He would always make sure to have ice cream at the house every time you would come to visit him. He tipped everything he did. If you bought a pack of gum, he'd give you, the guy behind the counter, a dollar.

And I have nothing but good memories about him. And I want to keep those memories in his spirit alive. And if part of by doing that is pronouncing my name. So he did. Martucci. Yes. Why would you violate the memory of your own grandfather by mispronouncing his name? There were times where we were a little bit estranged

from my dad's side of the family. So, you know, at the same time, again, that happened during my adolescent years when I was already, as a person, trying to define myself as separate from my family, as most adolescents do. So, you know, I think it was sort of born out of that. I don't do it now in a stalwart way

to separate myself from my family, but it's, you know, having carried it through my adolescence, again, I don't think it's right to change it back now. And again, I feel it is the proper pronunciation. And I guess I'm sort of a by-the-book gal and would rather use what I feel is the correct pronunciation and frankly, what it would appear is the correct pronunciation. Martucci, aren't there other ways to assert your Italianism, like just adding olive oil and garlic to everything you cook? Certainly. And again, I don't do it necessarily to assert my Italianism. I just do it because I feel like that's how the name should be pronounced. And where do you draw the line then? Do I say Susan Lucy? I mean, it seems weird. Do I say Christina Risi? Like Stanley Toosey? You're using a slippery slope argument here.

A little bit. But if Stanley chose to pronounce his name Toosey, they pronounce it Toosey. It's his name. And it's my name to pronounce Tootsie. Listen, Martoosey, don't get surlish with us. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. You may be seated.

Okay, first of all, I want to be clear on this. It is true that Cece, in Italian, is commonly pronounced Susan Lucci, right? However, there is no correct pronunciation of family names. It is really, I think historically you will see that family names are pronounced in different ways all the times, especially when they are being moved from one language to another. And there is a long precedent for de-anglicizing or re-anglicizing family names that have been pronounced or changed, particularly on Ellis Island. My favorite authors, for example, of the Book of Lists and the People's Almanac were a father and son team, but the father and son was Irving Wallace was the father and David Walachinsky, the son, who had clearly de-Anglicized the name that his father wore so proudly.

And it was kind of a sad fate, because if you looked at the book, you would not think that they were even father and son. To know that this work of weird, mad trivia genius was a work of father and son is to make it extra crazy and fun. To think that they were just sad bozo collaborators is very sad. And you hate to see a family split apart in this way, because indeed, as you have split off Martucci, you have effectively created two family names. And as you guys move on in your lives, and have families of your own, presumably,

you will become very distinct branches, not even linked by a common name. There will be the Martucci branch and the Martucci branch. And the longer this goes on, the less and less this conflict will be relevant, because every Martucci will know that their name is pronounced Martucci, and every Martucci will know that their name is pronounced Martucci. Italian spelling and convention be darned. That said, a name is both a connection to history and a connection to oneself. And as much as I would like to Ellis Island you both and call you Carol and Michelle Martin, or maybe Carol and Michelle St. John, but pronounce St. John like you live in Britain,

just to mess with everybody, and maybe even change both of your first names to Debbie and Melissa, which I think are great names. I cannot, nor can you, Martucci, change your sister's name to Martucci or vice versa. Your sisters and your brothers and you and each other must respect the personal choice of Nonno Martucci, who changed his name, and Starlight Humanear Necklace, which I think is probably a good name for one of you, and every person who has ever changed their name legally. This is difficult. I appreciate. ever changed their name legally. This is difficult, I appreciate.

But for those of you out there who respect the rules of Italian spelling and for those of you out there who respect your grandfather and his weird preference for vanity plates and pronouncing things wrong, but in a way, you are both honoring your grandfather. Martucci, you are honoring your grandfather's chosen name by keeping it.

And Martucci, you are honoring your grandfather's desire to change his own name and forge a new life for himself as Frank G.I. Joe Martucci, American boy. And so you remain sisters and you remain bonded to your grandfather who sounds like he was a great guy. And the saving grace is that since you spell it the same way, if you write a book of trivia

together, no one will know the shame that you have brought upon both spellings. So you must follow your own paths. I think you're both wrong and right. So I sentence you to call one another by her chosen name. And I also sentence you to both getting vanity plates that say in one way or another, Hodge rules. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Thank you. Thank you. Martucci, Martucci, how do you feel about the ruling? I'm happy with it. I mean, I think it's fair. Which one are you? That was Martucci. Martucci. You feel vindicated somehow? What about you, Martucci? It's a good ruling. I don't have a problem with it.

I'll do my best not to bicker with my sister. Right, you can't bicker anymore. That's the sentence. Do you understand that? Well, we have other subject matters to bicker about, so... I look forward to having you in my court again. What do you think of better, brunettes or redheads?

Oh, boy. I've always said that the Martucci's slash Martucci's are strong-willed women. Good luck to you both. Thank you.

Thank you. Sorry I took over your job there, Bailiff Jesse. Yeah, you know, what you gonna do? Well, you know what? You can still usher

them out and lock the courtroom doors. That's fair. I can. At least I've still got this giant key ring. And a wonderful new freshly pressed uniform. Is that new? Yeah, I pulled it off of a dead guy. Okay, well, moving on. Another Judge John Hodgman podcast in the books. I've beenailiff Jesse Thorne. The show is produced by me and Julia Smith for MaximumFun.org. You can find John Hodgman online at AreasOfMyExpertise.com and in bookstores

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