Judging Freedom - Aaron Maté : My Interview With Hamas.

Episode Date: December 23, 2025

Aaron Maté : My Interview With Hamas.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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And with Ollie's in-app on-demand health screenings, tap real experts whenever you need peace of mind. Visit ollie.com slash crossover and use code crossover for 60% off your first box. Thank you. Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for judging freedom. Today is Tuesday, December 23rd, 2025. Our dear friend Aaron Matae joins us now. Aaron, before I ask you about your interview with a Hamas negotiator and your analysis of statements made by Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, as recently as just three or four days ago, I do want to ask you about these negotiations in Florida involving Carol Demetriyev, Steve Whitkoff, and Jared Kushner. The Russians have made it crystal clear what their demands are. Their demands are non-negotiable. So what are these guys there to negotiate about?

That's a good question. Well, you know, given that Steve Whitkoff and Jared Kushner are primarily investors. They're interested in real estate. Perhaps, and given that the Russian counterpart is also in business, perhaps they're just talking about the future business ventures that could be undertaken once the war is over. And in terms of actually ending the war, I don't think there's really much any of these gentlemen can do. There are forces much bigger at play here. Trump doesn't want to spend more U.S. money on the proxy war in Ukraine. That's the one of the one. I think Red Line that he has stuck to.

You haven't seen him go back to Congress to ask for more money, although Warhawks in Washington did sneak in some more money from Ukraine into the recent NDAA, which Trump has approved of. So they'll get a little bit for Ukraine there. But aside from that, Trump is under incredible pressure from his allies on Capitol Hill, people like Lindsey Graham, who don't want to see any kind of negotiated deal. And so therefore, even if there were some terms brokered in Miami

amongst these U.S. and Russian officials. I just don't see Trump putting his weight behind it. And I think he's basically waiting for Ukraine to be defeated. I think you're right. I think you're right. You know, in a couple of minutes, we're going to look at this clip from Telsie Gabbard, who's going to complain about the deep state attempting to undermine his peace efforts. His peace efforts are really to do nothing, to dial back aid as best he can,

even though there's this $400 million. A lot of money to you and me and people watching us now, a pittance compared to the $275 billion that was given under the Biden administration to Ukraine, but still some money flowing to a government that's the most corrupt in the Western world. Transferring to Netanyahu, how deceived can the Israeli people be? how dumb can they be, not known for being dumb, collectively, to allow Netanyahu himself to be the chair of a commission of investigation as to what happened on October 9th, when it is essentially his personal behavior on that of his government that is the subject of the investigation.

Yeah, it's been clear for a very, very long time that Netanyahu will never allow an actual independent investigation into October 7th. And one of the overlooked reasons is that we, and we know, because we've talked about this on your show, it's one of the few spaces where discussion of this is not banned, that Israel killed some of its own people on October 7th by enacting the Hannibal directive. How many? We don't know exactly, but we know there were some because we know that Israeli tanks and helicopters fired at their own people to prevent them from being taken captive. Does Netanyahu want to have an independent investigation into that? Does Netanyahu want to have an independent investigation into this hoax that his government?

pushed, are there being mass rape by Hamas in October 7th? No. So no surprise at all that Netanyahu is taking steps to control any sort of inquiry. Will there ever be an independent investigation? At some point, Netanyahu will leave office either by an act of nature or by the political will of the electorate. In fact, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, his term expires in 2026. The record on this is not very promising of Israel investigating itself. There's a long history of Israeli commissions of inquiry, exonerating Israeli officials. So, for example, in the Lebanon War of more than 40 years ago, there was an Israeli inquiry into Sabarant and Chitilla, this massacre of Palestinian refugees by Israeli allies in Lebanon, facilitated by the Israeli army, which totally, although there was some. damning evidence that was on earth, it ultimately whitewashed the people responsible, which

included defense minister Ariel Sharon. So whether Netanyahu is in office or not, I doubt we can never expect a serious inquiry. And the question hanging over Gaza now is what happens over phase two. We're currently still in phase one, in which Israel violates the ceasefire every single day. I mean, you go online and you see constant videos of new Israeli attacks that kill civilians, which is, so Israel is violating its own ceasefire, and Trump doesn't really seem to be caring. And meanwhile, the defense minister, Israel cats of Israel, he just said that Israel will never fully withdraw from Gaza and that Israel will build settlements there, which is a complete breach of what Trump's so-called peace plan promised, which is that Israel will

not permanently occupy Gaza. So you have no serious effort right now by Trump to enforce his own so-called peace plan. And that is a very, very traditional practice that we've seen throughout this genocide. But it's going to mean that inevitably you're going to have a resumption of even more violence and even more carnage than we're currently used to right now. House terror crook is of the view that when the second or third phase of the Gaza, so-called ceasefire, so-called peace plan happens or doesn't happen or is due to happen, and it collapses, Netanyahu will blame Trump. I doubt that. I don't see Netanyahu blaming his biggest ally, someone who recently called for him to be pardoned. I think Netanyahu will continue just to blame. everybody else, including

the Palestinians and hold everybody collectively responsible for what he says is Hamas is doing when really it's all his doing. He doesn't want to have a ceasefire. He doesn't want to have peace. He doesn't want to see any parts of Gaza rebuilt. He wants to continue making

Gaza completely unlivable for its people so that they all leave and he can empty it of its Palestinian citizens and fill it up with Israeli settlers. That's ultimately Nanjou. school. The Supreme Court of Israel recently reinstated the Attorney General of Israel whom Trump, forgive me, whom I guess maybe Trump wasn't involved, who knows, but whom Netanyahu fired,

the prosecution will proceed at pace. Is Herzog free to deny the pardon or is he being threatened? Well, certainly having Trump weigh in is a lot of pressure. I mean, Trump is the top protector, the top patron of Israel. There is domestic opposition to pardoning Nanyahu. Recalled that before October 7th, there were these protests against them, not against his occupation and brutality against Palestinians, but because Nanyahu was acting authoritarian and, you know, sidelining judges, sidelining the judicial system of Israel to the extent that it exists.

And there's internal dissent about that. so yeah i mean i don't expect complete subservience to israel and i don't know if there'll be a pardon or not as to whether he's being threatened i have no idea tell us what you learned uh from your interview of the hamas negotiator about the absence of a ceasefire the continuation of genocide the moral need of hamas to stay armed the uh the cease the so-called ceasefire came into effect under really ambiguous terms. Recall that Hamas didn't agree to all of Trump's terms. Hamas agreed to a very narrow portion,

which was to release the remaining captives in exchange for an end to the full-scale genocide and a partial Israeli withdrawal. That's what Hamas agreed to. Hamas did not agree to disarm as the Trump, so-called peace plan calls for. And now we're seeing that come to a head because now Trump and Israel are insisting that Hamas disarm

Hamas won't do that, they say, until they have a guaranteed path to Palestinian self-determination, which the Trump plan does not offer. And if that is not being offered, if that's not being granted by Israel, then Hamas has said we won't disarm, but we are open to a long-term truce in which our weapons are stored. So we basically give up our weapons in sort of in a grace period. And during that long-term truce, maybe then we can negotiate a resolution to, this whole nightmare. But in the absence of any sort of promise of a truce or a path to self-determination for the Palestinian people, Hamas says that we will not disarm because it's our right as an occupied

people to resist a military occupation. And for us to unilaterally disarm is to essentially say that we're giving up our right, our struggle for freedom, which Hamas will not do. The problem now that Hamas faces is they've lost their leverage with the release of the last captives. Right. And Israel's no mood to ever make any deal that even offers a token acknowledgement of Palestinian rights. So you are going to see this come to a head very soon. It really depends on what Trump wants to. Does Trump want to give Israel a green light for another round of genocide? I suspect he will.

Well, is Israel, is the IDF murdering children because they step out to the wrong side of an imaginary line, not one that's even written or painted on the ground. Yes, they are. They have been murdering children for crossing over the so-called yellow line, but even children who haven't crossed over anywhere and are just sheltering in their tents. They've been murdered, too. And that's the sad reality of the so-called ceasefire. The aim of it really, it's very obvious now, was just to push the issue of Gaza off of the front pages.

And so under the guise of a fake ceasefire, Israel can continue Palestinians, but with less global attention. And so far, that's succeeding. Why would Hamas trust any promise from Israel, whether Trump's involved or not? Well, Hamas is no reason to trust anything. But, again, the problem is, look, they're in a very weak position. Their only leverage was the captives. They gave that up.

They were under heavy pressure from their allies, from the, you know, states acting as intermediaries like Qatar and Turkey, but also from their own people, too, who were just suffering miserably under Israeli genocide. So Hamas, I think, had no choice but to finally relent. But in the process, they gave up their last leverage, and so it doesn't really matter what they say. But that's been the case for a long time. And I talked to Basim Naim of Hamas about this in my interview. Even before October 7th, Hamas moderated its position. They essentially accepted the global consensus of a two-state solution in which

Palestinians essentially surrender and accepted a state in just 22% of their stolen homeland, the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem. And even for Israel in the U.S., that wasn't enough, even that massive Palestinian surrender was too much for Israel because Israel doesn't want to have any recognition of Palestinian self-determination because their entire existence is an Israeli state is predicated on denying Palestinian existence and stealing their land. So they don't want to have an accommodation. Even when Hamas accepts the global consensus, it doesn't matter.

So Hamas is no reason to trust anything that Israel promises and no reason to trust Israeli intentions. The problem they face now is that they have very little power. And they're in a very tough predicament, along with the entire Palestinian people who remain additionally burdened by the fact that their leadership is very divided. You have the West Bank, the Palestinian Authority, which is a collaborator of Israel,

which has acted against Tamas and acted against the people of Gaza, I would argue, which makes it a very difficult situation. Was the person that you interviewed pessimistic or optimistic about the future? I didn't ask him about his hopes for the future and how he feels about it. What it underscored to me is that, you know,

on the issue of the global, consensus for solving the Palestinian-Israel conflict, Hamas remains infinitely more moderate and pragmatic than Israel and the U.S. Because Hamas accepts a state and just 22 percent of their stolen homeland. That's a big compromise for Palestinians. It's very difficult to accept the Hamas political leadership, or at least the person I spoke to, he accepts that, along with the recognition of Palestinian's right to return to their stolen home, to their stolen homes.

Israel doesn't. And that's the main obstacle. And now there's no, as long as there's no pressure on the U.S. on Israel, then things will continue in this very bleak direction. One last topic before we get to Director Gabbard. Earlier today, Greta Thunberg was arrested in London for sitting quietly in front of an insurance company building holding a sign I oppose genocide. And for that, she was taken into custody. Is that going to come here? Well, it already has in the sense that you had foreign students

being kidnapped and set for deportation for criticizing Israel. So I think it has already come here. And it's a trend growing across the Western world. I mean, I know you've covered this. Look what had happened to Jacques Bo, the Swiss colonel, former NATO official, who's been critical of the proxy war in Ukraine. He's just been sanctioned by the EU for allegedly spreading this information. When all he's done is just analyzed the Ukraine proxy war.

war in a way that undermines the narrative that sustains it. And for that, he gets sanctioned. Francesca Albanese, the UN Special Rapporteur on the Palestinian territories, she's been sanctioned by the Trump administration. When she travels now, she can't use credit cards. She can't use her banking cards because she's under U.S. sanctions. So this is the trend that is happening now across the Western world. With people who challenge the prevailing narrative, whether it's support for Israel

or support for the Ukraine proxy war, they face the full force of the state. Chris, let's run cut number 11. I'd like your thoughts on this. But what I've seen over these months is that every time they make progress and they move closer and closer to that hope for peace, the warmongers in the deep state step up and try to do everything they can to stop them.

Predictably, they use the same old tactics that they've always used. The deep state within the intelligence community weaponizes intelligence to try to underbrush, progress. They leak it to their friends in the mainstream propaganda media to try to spread this and push a false narrative. They foment fear and hysteria as a way to justify the continuing of the war and their efforts to undermine President Trump's efforts towards peace and do so specifically in this case in order to try to pull the U.S. military into a direct

conflict with Russia, which is ultimately what the EU and NATO want. we cannot allow this to happen. We have to see clearly what's happening before our very eyes and stand united in this cause of peace. What do you think? Well, she's right. And she's referring to a report that was in Reuters, which claim that six people familiar with U.S. intelligence

say that U.S. intelligence officials believe that Russia, goal is not only to conquer Ukraine, but to take over parts of Europe. It was such a ridiculous story, and it's clearly put up by people who do not want to see a peace deal in Ukraine, and they're realizing that one is about to happen, not so much even because of Trump stance, but because Russia is winning. And Trump just doesn't have the ideological commitment to fueling this proxy war, as Biden did. So Tulsi Gabbard is talking about whoever was behind the story in their efforts to block peace, and she's right to call it out.

It's striking to hear the head of the National Intelligence Office talk about the deep state and talk about war mongers. These people work for her. They work for her, exactly. But the fact that they do work for her and the fact that they're still trying to undermine the official policy speaks to the entrenched power of permanent Washington, the permanent bureaucracy that really sets decisions and contains an influence. Now, the other thing to say about her comments is that they apply just as equally. to what the Trump administration is doing in Venezuela, putting out false stories to media stenographers to foment war and regime change.

Unfortunately, Tulsi Gabbard, who used to be a critic of the Trump administration's regime change effort in Venezuela during Trump's first term, is not complicit in it, because what has she said so far about the Trump administration's regime change campaign in Venezuela? Nothing. And in fact, earlier this year,

she essentially removed officials who had challenged the narrative that the Trump administration was pushing to foment regime change in Venezuela. So when it comes to the Ukraine proxy war, she's 100% right, and it's a striking statement for our Director of National Intelligence to make. Unfortunately, you could apply her critique just as easily to herself and our administration colleagues when it comes to fomenting regime change in Venezuela, among other places, Iran as well, where the Trump administration joined Israel in bombing Iran, even after Tulsi Gabbard affirmed

that Iran is not building a nuclear weapon. And Trump publicly said, I don't care what she says, even though she had access to the intelligence. I wonder what she thinks about this. Chris, cut number nine. What are we going to do with the oil that we have? Going to do with what? The oil that has been seized. The United States seized 1.9 million barrels of oil on December 10th.

We're going to keep it. Are we going to sell it or put in the strategic oil? Maybe we'll sell it. Maybe we'll keep it. Maybe we'll use it in the strategic reserves. We're keeping the ships also. I mean, that's piracy to the endth degree. That's what FDR condemned the Nazis for doing,

seizing American merchant ships long before we were involved in the war. Where is she on that? What is she going to do? She'd get fired if she condemned that. Yes, she would. And, you know, someone speaking in her defense, might say that behind the scenes she's playing a moderating force she's she's pushing back i mean i've heard that from uh some of her allies i don't know what's going on inside what i do know is that

she was a staunch critic of trump's regime change campaign in venezuela during his first term and now he's picking it up and he's actually expanding it uh by stealing venezuela's oil in the open seas uh on top of previous the previous theft of venezuela's oil company sitco the u.s subsidiary. Anya and Power Impel documents this in her book of the corporate coup. So the Trump administration is escalating its regime change campaign in Venezuela. It's the people Venezuela who will suffer because when you cut off a country's main source of revenue, it's main way to feed its people. It's the most vulnerable who will suffer. People are also suffering in Cuba. People are also increasingly endangered and strained it because because Trump ordered

effectively the closure of Venezuela airspace, a lot less plane. are flying to Venezuela is people have been stranded around the world. People can't bring medications to their families, medications that are hard to get in the first place of Venezuela because of U.S. sanctions. So on so many levels, there's all these ways in which this regime change campaign, on top of the open piracy that we see that's stealing of the oil, it just hurts suffering people. And that's the goal of these efforts is to make the population suffer enough so that the society crumbles and finally we install a leader who we want who will do our bidding that's why all of this is a war crime blockades seizures stealing preventing medicine from getting in it's the moral

equivalent of killing people yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah haven't they go ahead please well and just trump capitalized on the fatigue with regime change in his presidential campaigns it's what some of his supporters found very appealing about him the fact he was calling this out when and the Bush administration was doing it or the Obama administration was doing it. He's now repurposing the exact same playbook for his own ends and doing it with very little pushback from his allies and those who do push back like Marjorie Taylor Green

get pushed out of Congress. Right. Aaron, thank you very much. Have a great holiday. We'll be taking some time off and back on January 4. Look forward to seeing you that week. All the best, my friend.

I'll see you then, Judge. Thank you. Happy New Year. Bye bye-bye. I meant to say January 5. January 4 is a Sunday. We'll be resuming on that Monday. And we'll be resuming this afternoon at 2 o'clock with Matt Ho. At 3 o'clock, Colonel Karen Koukowski, at 4 o'clock. Who else? Max Blumenthal, Judge Napolitano for a judging freedom.

Thank you.