Judging Freedom - Alastair Crooke: Dark Lessons Learned in Russia.

Episode Date: December 11, 2023

Alastair Crooke: Dark Lessons Learned in Russia.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Thank you. Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Monday, December 11th, 2023. Alistair Crook joins us, fresh off a week in Moscow. What is the true state of Russia and American relations? All that and more right after this. Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Lear Capital. You all know that I am a paid spokesperson for Lear Capital because it's the right thing to do because the government is regulating too much and printing too much money and reducing the value of everything you earn and everything you own. And the best hedge against this is gold and silver. That's what I've done. I know the folks

at Lear. I trust the folks at Lear. I've worked with the folks at Lear, and I use their advice when it comes to my investing in gold and silver, you should do the same. Call them at 800-511-4620 or go to learjudgenap.com. You'll have a very nice conversation with a very knowledgeable person who will send you literature to read, which you can review with your spouse and your financial advisor, and then you can call them back and decide what you want to do. Why Lear? Lear has 25 years experience and thousands of five-star reviews and a 24-hour risk-free guarantee. And when you have this conversation with a Lear representative, you'll find out if you can qualify for a $15,000 gold bonus. So call Lear now, 800-511-4620 or learjudgenap.com. Alistair, welcome back to the show, my dear friend. You spent a very fruitful week in Moscow

with some other international friends of ours what is the status in your view of u.s russia diplomatic relations as we speak uh well they've really reached an idea i mean they've gone i mean they're much worse than i really expected to to find it i mean i knew there were problems i remember being told by the Deputy Defence Minister some time ago that the relations were deteriorating, that the treaties, the channels of communication were all being stopped and blocked. But I was very surprised to find, I mean, it's worse than during the Cold War. The enmity is palpable. The enmity between the interlocutors from the West

and the sense of seeing Russia as the enemy, as something for which there's no desire for discourse, was really striking and very dangerous. And I think the Russians appreciate that it's dangerous because there are very few what in the West has sort of become fashionable to call guardrails, but there are no treaties. Really, most of the treaties involving weapons of mass destruction

and missiles and things have now been put into suspension or cancelled. So there are no, if you like, contacts. And what is more, they don't see many prospects of those contacts being resumed. There are one or two. I mean, there have been one or two initiatives by the West, from America, from people to come and speak with them. But it's quite clear to the Russians that these people are just individuals. They have no mandate. They don't represent anything.

I mean, you can have a chat with them. But there's still this downward spiral. And it was made plain to me that, you know, it's become really something which is becoming quite petty. We'll block this. We will not let you repair your mission. We won't let you do this. And then Russia feels compelled that it has no alternative but to do something rather similar to American embassy, say, in Moscow. And so the spiral goes down another turn. What, in your view, is the genesis of all this? Is it American military aid to Ukraine, American political leaders failing to see

the conflagration in Ukraine from the Russian side, the sort of American ancient Cold War mentality that Russia is the descendant of the Soviet Union and wants to reconstruct the imperial Soviet lands? Well, there's some of many of those things that you've just mentioned, of course, particularly, you know, the sense of the Soviet Union was a threat and that Russia is somehow becoming another Soviet Union and an empire and having aspirations to take over parts of the other lands, for which there's absolutely no evidence at all of that. But I think really it's something much more basic, which is that what Russia stands for

runs completely counter to what our new rulers um hold so I mean our whole rulers hold in wanting to disembed us from gender from family from all forms of sort of a way of collective being and russia stands for the opposite russia really stands for um you know the family it stands for orthodox religion it stands for patriotism and nationalism and it's abhorrent i think think, to the modern, the new moral order that is being constructed in America and in Europe, which, you know, looks for something quite different. It doesn't look. It wants diversity. It wants gender fluidity. It wants all of these things. And Russia represents the opposite. And, you know, I said to them, sometimes it must

feel to you like when you're talking to the West as if you're trying to talk to the Bolsheviks of 1917, 1980. And, you know, there was at that time a certain amount of sympathy even for the Bolsheviks. And there is a sort of parallel that the Russians and others can see. At that time, I mean, a famous Russian general who'd come back, a white Russian general who'd taken part in the war, came to St. Petersburg to find it in chaos. And yet normality was continuing. People were going to the theater, going to others.

So he immediately went off to see the Tsar and say, look, your army is in disarray. It's out of control. And he went to the court only to find that most of the Romanov women that he knew well were wearing the red ribbon of support for the Bolsheviks, those Bolsheviks that later were to murder them. And I said, well, of course, we don't wear that ribbon, but you do see a lot of rainbow ribbons being worn by people in the West, unaware of what is the full intention of the cultural revolution that is unfolding around us. What are the risks for the Russians

as they recognize this radical disparity in culture, as they recognize that every one of their Russian boys that was killed in Ukraine was killed with an American piece of shrapnel or an American artillery round or American small fire rounds that the American government just gave to Ukraine? Well, quite clearly, I mean, it's not just the United States, because as they said to me, you know, there's no one in Europe to whom we can talk. I mean, there are politicians, but none of them have any sort of knowledge of Russia or any empathy for Russia at all. But,

you know, two of those states are nuclear armed powers and nuclear weapons are widely dispersed around Europe. So they're very concerned that things could develop and they're a great threat. And the thing that Putin does think a lot about is how to avoid a conflict developing, evolving, that could lead and end up with the use of either tactical or major nuclear weapons. The Russians perceive Western hostility toward them. Is there European hostility toward the Russians? I mean, one way to look at the last 18 months of what is happening in Ukraine is a profound military defeat for NATO. How do Europeans view the Russians after the scandalous waste of their military hardware? Well, I mean, it used to be the case that we had no problems. I mean, there was never a Russia problem before Ukraine and the Maidan revolution in Ukraine.

Now, of course, the Europeans are sort of raising all sorts of fears that Russia might be about to invade Germany or invade the Baltic republics or whatever. So, yes, there's a huge enmity also at one level, at the level, the ruling party level. Otherwise, within ordinary states, with states there's considerable support for Russia. Across Europe, we've had relations with Russia. I mean, Russia is our neighbor. We live alongside it.

There's no alternative to that affair. But there is a great deal of support, but also a sense of now Russia has a European problem. The Europeans are trying to suggest that Russia has ambitions to attack Europe. I mean, it's ridiculous because why would it want to do that it has no interest in attacking the rest of um of europe tell us about uh moscow about its uh economy about culture about uh about the people and how they move about their daily lives? Well, I was there in a lot of snow, but it's very well managed. I mean, every road is cleared overnight.

There's no problems with snow. The airports function with quite heavy snowfalls. And life there is like you'd find in any modern city. It's everything functions normally. The restaurants are full. There's plenty of food. Life goes on. The shops are there.

You wouldn't know there was a war that was being fought in Ukraine. There's no sign of it. You don't see troops on the corners or anything like that. It's very relaxed. It would be like going to Paris. I think no sign of it. You don't see troops on the corners or anything like that. It's very relaxed. It would be like going to Paris. I think you'd find it, well, actually probably a bit better organized than Paris. How is President Putin's standing with the Russian people after 18 months of the conflagration in Ukraine and after American sanctions? And I forgot to ask you this. You can throw this in with your answer. Have American sanctions negatively affected the consumer end, what you saw of the Russian economy? No, not at all. I mean, the Russian economy is fine. It's doing better than most other economies in the world. It's fine. It's growing. It's producing. And so

people are content with that. No, I think Putin's standing remains very high, 80% approval. He's well regarded by them. There is a slight tension always in Russian society because those that were very much pro-European and towards Europe, I mean, that has been part of Russia from 1700 when Peter the Great founded St. Petersburg, which was really a European city. Its architecture and everything was taken straight from Europe. And he developed this sort of Europeanism. But that started to change even in the 19th century when people went to those, the affluent elites in St. Petersburg and said, but why don't you speak in Russian? Why are you speaking in French?

Why are you wearing those clothes, Western clothes of Europe? Why don't you wear Russian clothes? What are you doing? So it began to change sometime, but now it really is over, that sort of European. And so we have people, you have people in Russia who are still very Europeanized, who would take their holidays in Europe, would like to go there, but they feel their sort of landmarks slipping away from them as Russia develops its own sense of self, its own sense of being, which is partly orthodox,

partly a sort of sense of Russia finding its place in a new multipolar world. And so there is a sort of sense of those people who are still leaning towards European culture feel a little bit of sensitivity, particularly because everyone knows that the West is always looking for some sort of position, some node in Russian society where they can put a wedge in and divide society and culture is one of the main areas where the West looks to try and fragment and divide and weaken Russia. So there's a real sense that this is something that they have to guard against.

The last polls that I saw, which was just about two weeks ago, showed President Putin with an approval rating of between 82 and 86 percent. Now you can compare that to Joe Biden. It's almost the inverse. I mean, his approval rating is down in the high 20s and low 30s. Did you sense, do you have a pulse of how the Russian people feel about President Putin? Yes. I mean, as I say, there are a few people that were sort of very much orientated towards the West before, and it wasn't so long ago, who perhaps feel a little bit unhappy about it. But overwhelmingly, people are very satisfied with Putin, as you describe it in those approval ratings.

They feel that he has a very clear intellect, a very sound vision for the future, that he acts in a very controlled and orderly manner. The diplomats or officials with whom you spoke, were you able to get your finger on their pulse with respect to the war in Gaza and their view of Prime Minister Netanyahu and their opinion of Hamas? Well, yes. It's clear that they see, unlike many in Europe, they understand the big change that took place just over a year ago with the election of a very different in character government in Israel under Netanyahu. I mean, one with completely radical and different objectives. They understand that and they

see what is happening and they see the dangers in that, in the dangers of sort of eschatological desire to sort of form a greater Israel and to drive out Palestinians and to drive out all Arabs and perhaps take back territory. And so Russia is aiming to try and mediate because it has good relations. While I was there, President of Iran had arrived. President Raisi was there for talks. Putin had just been to Saudi Arabia and the UAE.

And clearly, there's an important role. And I think it's important to understand from January, Russia will be president of the BRICS groups. And I think we're going to see a much more active policy. This is something the BRICS can take a lead in. This is something that they're working with China and with the Arab states to try and find some sort of solution. I don't think we're going to see a political solution, but the first objective would be to try and achieve some form of ceasefire, even at the time. And they are very concerned, too, in Russia about the fact that it looks like Israel is increasing the tensions with Hezbollah, and that that may be the next, if you like, upward turn in this widening of the war.

Because now Israel has formally asked for a meeting, or the tripartite meeting within 48 hours to go back to Security Council Resolution 1701, which was basically a resolution that aimed to bring an end to the 2006 war. But Israel from the beginning has claimed that that meant that Hezbollah had to leave the south of Lebanon and go to the north of the Litani River. And I mean, of course, there's not a chance of that happening. And so really really the national security advisor was on israeli television last night saying well you know there's going to be a change in lebanon and if they if it doesn't work with the by the diplomatic route and western envoys have been in lebanon

promising a lot of money um if they would only get rid of Hezbollah from the border areas so that Israelis could go back to their homes in northern Israel, that would be fine. But it's not going to happen. And so we may well see then from this an escalation by Israel against Hezbollah. It's very tense even now. So I think Russia is very preoccupied about the dangers of that, of the war moving towards the northern border away from Gaza and compounding the problem. Here is a clip of the president of Iran and President Putin and the conversation that they had while you were in Moscow.

I'll read the subtitles. It is very important for us to exchange, especially regarding the situation in Palestine. The reasons that humanity is suffering are the unilateral decisions taken in the unfair global system, and the result of this we can witness in Palestine and the Gaza territory. What is happening in Palestine and Gaza is, of course, genocide and a crime against humanity. Do the Russians generally regard what is happening in Gaza as genocide and a crime against humanity? And if they do, what will or can President Putin do about it?

Things are slightly complicated because they have a Jewish population in Russia, which is influential. It's not big, but it's influential. And they have a number, nearly a million Russians living in Israel for which the president has certain constitutional obligations towards so it's he has to take care of that but i think they do understand it in those terms but president putin is trying to keep the language um in a way that will permit the possibility of some form of mediation,

because he has good relations. As you've seen, he's met with the Hamas leadership, and he's met just now with Iran, and he has a close relationship. Indeed, during those meetings they signed, or at least they were about to sign, finishing off, a strategic partnership with Iran, a major strategic partnership, and also a document about how to avoid American sanctions on Iran. A very important, I think, document, because also I'm sure that those issues came up during his visit to Saudi Arabia and also the visit to the UAE.

I believe that we will see in this coming period from the BRICS major initiatives on trading and on currencies and on banking. They're in preparation. I don't have all the details, but I think they will be really important. While you were flying home, the Security Council of the United Nations voted on a resolution calling for a ceasefire in Gaza. The vote was 13 in favor, one against, and one abstention. The against was the United States. The abstention was the United Kingdom.

I'm going to play for you. So this is two and three, Chris. The statement of the deputy American ambassador to the UN explaining why the United States dissented. And then three very interesting clips from the foreign ministers of Saudi Arabia and Jordan and the prime minister of Qatari, who happened to be in Washington, D.C. at the time. First, the American deputy ambassador, and then the responses from the three Arab officials. Although the United States strongly supports a durable peace in which both Israelis and Palestinians can live in peace and security, we do not support this resolution's call

for an unsustainable ceasefire that will only plant the seeds for the next war. We believe there is a moral obligation toward the international community to stop the killing of the Palestinian civilians. And it's the first time, at least in my lifetime, that I have seen that calling for a ceasefire became a controversial issue. I'm not sure how deep is the understanding here of what's happening on the ground in Gaza.

I mean, this war has broken every record. Largest number of journalists killed. Largest number of hospitals destroyed. Largest number of medics killed. Largest number of UN employees killed. Our message has been very clear there needs to be an immediate ceasefire there needs to be a cessation of hostilities and we need to have immediate access for humanitarian aid it is not acceptable what are your thoughts

uh on this first of all why would Britain uh? And secondly, I guess we cannot expect under Joe Biden that the Americans would ever go along with this. No, I don't think they will. I mean, Britain is just standing with the Americans. There's no British interest. In fact, most of the country is opposed to. I think Biden is doing this because he believes the Israelis, when they said to him that what they are doing is going to end Hamas in Gaza. Now, I think it's quite clear, and I think this is why there's some anxiety now in the White House and in Israel. It's becoming quite clear that actually Hamas is not being defeated.

I mean, when you see Israel rounding up a whole lot of civilians from a local shelter in their underwear and then filming them and say they're sort of seized Hamas prisoners, you realize that Israel is having to try and find ways of convincing its public that this exercise has been a success. I don't think they have even touched the main force of Hamas, which is underground still. They've just managed to attrit it a little bit at the edges, but not the main part of it. And at the same time, they've destroyed their image in the world overall, completely. But Biden is committed to giving them as much time as possible to try and destroy Hamas. But meanwhile, as I say, I think Hamas understood this.

They are able to last much longer than perhaps Biden or Netanyahu is in this fight. And then I think that they expect that Israel will go for Hezbollah. And that will mean we will move up the ladder of escalation to the next level. And this will be an important event because it will be triggered by Israel, not by Hezbollah. New York Times has an interesting piece in today's front page about the reversal of fortune for President el-Sisi of Egypt as a consequence of the Hamas attack on Israel and Israel's ferocious response, even though President al-Sisi is more or less a dictator, is up for re-election and was very unpopular on October 6th. He's now immensely popular and seen as sort of the defender of the Palestinian people, but there's only a limit to what he can do. If the Israelis force the

Palestinians into Egypt, he has problems on his hands. If the will of the Egyptian public for Egypt to become involved militarily, should this war escalate, as you just intimated it might, he has problems on his hands. How do you this i think all these um states sunni states particularly the gulf states do are very anxious about what's happening because what i see happening is something which is worrying for them is we're seeing a confluence of nationalism with islam i don't mean a particular form of Islam. It's not Muslim Brotherhood, it's not Wahhabi, it's not a particular type of Islam. It is what I would call civilizational Islam. And this is very worrying because the Islamist movement was essentially promoted by the West in order to destroy nationalism in the Middle East.

And now we are seeing nationalism and a sort of popular Islamism, which is not controllable through Al-Azhar University or Najaf, emerging. And I think these states are very frightened about the consequences of that, frightened for their own safety, for the continuation of their rule, if this takes off and becomes a more serious threat to them. Do you think this will take off and become a more serious threat to them, Alistair? Yes, I do. I think it's started to take off. You know, if you look at the protests outside the American embassy in Oman, in Jordan, what were they saying? They were all calling, no, who is our leader? It's Hamas. Who is our leader? Hamas. Who is our army? Kassam brigades. I mean, that was in Jordan. I mean, this is the sort of thing for sharing all of your impressions from your time in Moscow. And thank you, as usual, for your brilliant analysis.

We'll see you again next week. Thank you very much. Thank you. Of course. Coming up later today, it's Monday, Ray McGovern, Larry Johnson and Max Blumenthal. Judge Napolitano for judging freedom. Thank you.