Judging Freedom - AMB Chas Freeman: Will Israel Attack Iran w/o the US?

Episode Date: October 15, 2024

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Thank you. Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Tuesday, October 15th, 2024. Ambassador Charles Freeman joins us now. Ambassador, a pleasure, my dear friend. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for letting me pick your brain. Will Israel attack Iran without an ironclad backup from the United States? Apparently it intends to.

And the sad thing is that we have been conferring with Israel, trying to set conditions for its attack. And, of course, we have now put THAAD, High Altitude Ballistic Missile Defense System, in Israel, apparently because an Israeli radar installation, which supported the Israeli equivalent of that, was knocked out, or at least so Hezbollah claims. So we have now got American soldiers on the ground in Israel. That's a tripwire. And we have shown, taken yet another step, demonstrating our complicity in the widening war.

Do you think that the presence, I noticed you used the phrase tripwire, I agree with you. Might the presence of the American troops there be to serve a deterrent to Iran, or is it no deterrent to Iran that if Israel is attacking Iran, Iran will destroy Israel's the nuclear installations and oil refineries that were originally apparently discussed with us, I think Iran will be compelled to retaliate. And whether there are Americans on the ground or not, that will happen. So I think we're in a situation in where the war is widening, American involvement is increasing, not decreasing. There are a lot of people in Washington who seem to be delighted by the war in Lebanon, the Israeli effort to smash Hezbollah. And I think we're in there and we're not going to be a deterrent to Iran. What happens if some of those American soldiers come home in body bags? Well, we have a president who has been all in for Israel.

And I suppose that might tip the United States into a more active role still. Does Iran... I'm sorry. go ahead, Ambassador. I was going to say, you know, the fact of the American election figures in all this. Mr. Netanyahu, the Prime Minister of Israel, clearly wants Mr. Trump to win. He will play any war with Iran to support that

and to injure the prospects for Kamala Harris to win the election. And I know that the Biden White House is becoming openly concerned about this. And so there are now threats to suspend weapons sales to Israel, awfully late in the threats to which you're referring. And because it came from them, one has to think, is this what the CIA wants us to think? We all know of that connection. Nevertheless, the Washington Post reports that the United States warned Israel in writing, if it does not allow humanitarian aid into Gaza, the United States would halt military aid. Is this a credible threat?

Can the United States of America, under Joseph R. Biden, say no to Benjamin Netanyahu? That's the question. Well, it certainly would be unprecedented, but I think it reflects pressure on the Kamala Harris, Tim Walz campaign. There are a lot of people in this country who are just not prepared to overlook the evil that we are supporting and will not support the Democratic ticket if we continue to aid Israel in its genocide, its mass murder, its forced eviction of people, its ethnic cleansing, and its assassination campaigns, as well as its, former UN ambassador and former presidential national security advisor and also a super hawk and neocon, have each urged the president to be a bellicose. Well, Lindsey Graham urged the president to send a team to assassinate Vladimir Putin, but that's another topic for another time and is indicative of his recklessness. But Senator Graham argued that the United States

should, the United States, not Israel, should bomb and destroy Iran's oil refineries. And Ambassador Bolton argued that the United States, not Israel, should bomb and destroy Iran's nuclear capabilities. Are they heedless of what the likely and probable consequences would be to such behavior? Yes, and generally heedless of international reaction to the United States in support for Israel. Israel is now, of course, a pariah regarded as a font of evil rather than a beneficial presence on the planet. Much of the world would like to see Israel destroyed. And the United States is right there alongside Israel and suffering from the same loss of prestige, reputation,

and influence that Israel is. We speak and nobody follows our orders or our advice. So I think the consequences begin with political consequences, which are now already severe, because in effect, the collective West, led by the United States, has given Israel a free pass to commit the most horrendous crimes known to international law and human rights theory. And so we will pay a price. But beyond that, we have made an enormous number of enemies with a potential for blowback. We've had this before. I think the potential for blowback now is enormous. There are a huge number of people who have lost fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, children, who have a desire for vengeance. They don't seem to be quite as unbridled in that desire as the Israeli public is,

but I wouldn't underestimate the possibility that some of the 1.9 billion Muslims who are deeply outraged by what is going on use violence against Americans. A former United States ambassador to Saudi Arabia who happens to be fluent in Chinese and happens to be a person I respect and admire very much once said on this show, the problem with searching for monsters to destroy...

I keep this on my desk. It's so astute, Ambassador. The problem with searching for monsters to destroy is that they follow you home. I'm afraid that statement that I made is being demonstrated, proven. And you fear it happening again. I'd like to play a clip for you of former Speaker Nancy Pelosi, not characteristic of her and quite critical of Benjamin Netanyahu. This is last night, so this is less than 24 hours ago on PBS. Chris, cut number eight.

Sadly, since then, we've seen many casualties of noncombatants, children and families in Gaza and now some elsewhere in the region. And it's just intolerable. But right now we have to live with the circumstances that we have. We've all been talking about a two-state solution for a long time. The current leader in Israel does not agree to that, even though for about 30 years, since like 93, we have been talking about that. I don't know if Netanyahu wants peace. I don't know if he's capable of peace. I don't know if he's afraid of peace.

But he has gone off the course that we all thought we were in as we support Israel. That's not Joe Biden or Kamala Harris, but it is a major player in the Democratic Party late in the presidential election campaign. What do you think? I think Nancy Pelosi, whatever else she may be, is an astute reader of the political mood in this country. And I think she is reacting to the same political forces that have finally brought Joe Biden to issue a threat, apparently, to cut off arms sales if the effort explicitly described

by Israel to starve the 400,000 Palestinians in northern Gaza to death if they are not killed, and to treat anyone who refuses to abandon this place where they live as an enemy combatant that can legally be slaughtered. I think this is so outrageous that it has inflamed the passions of many Americans, many to their credit, many Jewish Americans, among others. And I think Nancy Pelosi is reacting to the or she's feeling the political winds and reacting accordingly. Earlier this week, four 19-year-old IDF soldiers were killed when a Hezbollah-launched drone hit the dining room of their military headquarters. Seventy others were injured. The Army Chief of Staff was reported to have been there. The Israelis will not say if he was there, if he was killed, if he was injured, or if he wasn't there, but I understand secrecy in wartime. Nevertheless, how impactful on a small country with a small

military like Israel is this. I know these numbers are minuscule compared to the numbers that Israel has slaughtered, but are they significant numbers in Israel for Israelis? I believe they are. I think, you know, one of the things that's happened, as you mentioned, in wartime, secrecy displaces open information. And Israel essentially has outlawed reporting on battle damage it suffered from the Iranian and Hezbollah attacks. So there's no reporting. And normally the Israeli press is considerably freer and more informative on these matters than anything in the West. But it has been silent. But this is too big an issue to be overlooked. I want to note, however, that the reaction in Israel,

which will be one of consternation and distress, is not mirrored abroad. The American press reported this sympathetically to Israel. At the same time, we had the iconic burning to death of a 19-year-old kid in a tent with an IV stuck in his arm. In Abhazen, we have the photos of that. So apparently, you know, there is no equation at all internationally. The collective West treats Palestinians as non-human in much the way that Israel has said they are. And this is not unnoticed internationally. And it does us no credit, quite the opposite. You are speaking, of course, of the Israeli firebombing of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital. Here is the rather emotional description by an eyewitness, a journalist named Bisan Aouda, who according to Max Blumenthal is a highly respected journalist in Gaza. Here's what she saw. Cut number nine.

They burned people alive. I don't know. They picked this muscle to cause this fire at this time of the night to kill people while they are sleeping and then these people are waking up watching their bodies burning turning into black and having their last breath on front of the camera that what happened they did this Last breath on front of the camera. That what happened. They did this. They did this. I know that you will not be able to watch the videos, to watch the pictures, to hear them screaming while they are burning and no one can do anything for them. But the Israeli army did this.

Will there be consequences to what Netanyahu's army did when they did this? I think there will be. I've seen what I think is a very apt comparison between the iconic picture during the Vietnam War of a little naked girl running down the road while napalm is being dropped. Oh, God, we all remember. I'm showing our age, but we remember that. And this has the same effect,

because the videos of the people screaming as they are burned to death are out there. You can watch them if you have the stomach for it. And I think one could hardly find a more graphic, convincing demonstration of the utter sadism of the Israeli approach to the Palestinians. But will the resistance put enough pressure on the governments of the countries in which the members of the resistance live? Overwhelming numbers to induce those countries to put an end to this slaughter with military force.

No amount of reason is going to change Prime Minister Netanyahu's mind because he knows what will happen to him if the war stops. I think only force will. But in what form and from what source will that force need to come, Ambassador? It would have to come from the collective West, the United States and European backers of Israel, because it's been obvious from the beginning that the only way to stop this violence,

this murder, this genocide, is to cut off the means for Israel to conduct it. And here, this is part of a long-term pattern. Israelis have been taught by unflinching support from the United States that there is nothing they cannot get away with, that they can do absolutely anything with impunity. And if they bring down enemies on them by provoking them, they can count on the United States to save them from the consequences of their own misjudgments and misdeeds. So if you're referring to the resistance in the region, I think we're talking about countries that, with few exceptions, are autocratic. The rulers must pay attention to popular opinion, but they're able to blunt its effect on their policies.

They don't want to get into a war with either Israel or the United States or anybody else. So Israel basically, as long as the West supports it, and it is the West, not just the United States, with maybe France wobbling a bit earlier than we have begun to do, then it's not going to stop. Mr. Netanyahu, Nancy Pelosi asked the question, does Mr. Netanyahu want peace? The answer is emphatically no, he does not. He wants to accomplish the removal of the Palestinian population from all of Palestine and to knock out Iran as a rival for hegemony in the region. And he will stop at nothing to pursue these objectives. And his determination to do that is, as you said, reinforced by the fact that if

there is peace, he'll be out of office and he'll be in jail. You, you know, you just mentioned something and I had my, I lost my train of, I lost my train of thought. Forgive me. We were talking about Netanyahu's refusal. Oh, I know. You mentioned the resistance. Much of the resistance, Jordan, Egypt, Turkey, received such financial assistance from the United States, it would be very difficult for them to take on the United States if Joe Biden is succeeded by someone, and apparently he will be, one or the other, who's as bellicose in favor of Israel as Joe is. Well, we have essentially bought the perpetuation of Camp David and the related accords with Jordan by massive amounts of aid to Egypt and to Jordan, both of which are highly dependent on this assistance. But in the end, at least in my experience, very few countries, very few people will tolerate

humiliation and the growth of an intolerable threat just because they're paid to put up with it. And so we have seen in the case of Egypt, which is the key here, by the way, we do not give aid to Turkey. And the Turks are quite at odds with us on this issue, as well as a number of others at the moment. In fact, I would say that the United States no longer has any diplomatic allies in the region. We have in the Gulf states, where we also don't give aid, they actually pay us for everything we do there. They have officially declared their neutrality between Israel and Iran. And they have told us we may not use bases and facilities we maintain on their territory

to participate in an attack on Iran. This is a very important strategic development because it puts the end to the whole farce of the Abraham Accords, which were an effort to ace out the Palestinians by economic bribery again. And, you know, some of which didn't come through. We didn't supply the aircraft to the UAE that we promised. We've not done other things that we promised in order to induce them to establish a normal relationship with Israel. But it's not just that. These countries, which were reliable supply states, if you will, of the United States, have now declared a level of independence which we have not seen. Let's talk about Europe for a minute. You mentioned France.

The president of France looked the other way when Palestinians were being slaughtered. But when the IDF fired on UN peacekeepers, some of whom were French, none of whom were hurt. He condemned Prime Minister Netanyahu's behavior and forbade any more military, French military equipment going to Israel. I don't know how much the French were sending, but maybe this was just symbolic. I want to ask you about it. Spain did the same and Italy did the same because apparently there were Spanish, Italian, Irish, and French peacekeepers in this UNIFIL group that the IDF attacked.

And what did Benjamin Netanyahu say? Get out of the way. Yes. Well, Israel has officially declared the United Nations to be, quote, anti-Semitic, unquote, which is absurd. And it is absolutely outrageous to demand the removal of peacekeeping forces from another sovereign country. Lebanon may not be very effective in exercising its sovereignty, but it is a sovereign country. Israel has no right to demand the removal of these forces, and it certainly has no right to attack UN peacekeepers.

So I think in addition to the nationalist concern, natural concern that the French, the Irish, the Italians, the Spanish would have with their compatriots who serve in these forces coming under Israeli attack. In addition to that, I think they are genuinely concerned that what Israel has been doing is giving the coup de grace to international law and human decency. There is, you know, if Israel ignores the international system of justice, the international laws, the UN Charter, the Geneva Conventions, there is no international law that it obeys. And while it used to boast of having the most moral army in the world, we have seen evidence, TikTok and other evidence, that it is in fact the cruelest, least humane

armed force on the planet. Here's Prime Minister Netanyahu, earlier today with his comments on UNIFIL, it's the second time he's made these comments. Tell me, Ambassador, please, if in your opinion any of this is worthy of belief. Cut number seven. The charge that Israel deliberately attacked UNIFIL personnel is completely false. It's exactly the opposite. Israel repeatedly asked UNIFIL to get out of harm's way. Israel is not fighting UNIFIL.

It's not fighting the people of Lebanon. It is fighting Iran's proxy Hezbollah, which uses Lebanese territory to attack Israel. Hezbollah uses UNIFIL facilities and positions as cover while it attacks Israeli cities and communities. We regret any harm done to UNIFIL personnel, and the IDF is doing its utmost to prevent such incidents. But the best way to ensure the safety of UNIFIL personnel

is for UNIFIL to heed Israel's requests and to temporarily get out of harm's way. I know it seemed like I was exaggerating before when I summarized what he said by saying get out of the way, but that's what he said. No, he said surrender, capitulate or else. And it's absolute nonsense that Israel is trying to protect UNIFIL. They actually blew down the walls around the UNIFIL compound. They knocked out the observation tower in it. They fired on the UNIFIL troops. This is just as big a lie as the lie that they take care to not hit civilians, that Hamas is using everybody in Gaza

as a human shield, and therefore everybody, as they've said publicly, is complicit in the October 7 atrocities that they experience. I just saw a recent statistic, which is really very interesting. Apparently, when the U.S. bombs, something like one-third of 1% of the casualties are civilians. When Israel bombs, 25% are routinely civilian. So this is a country that takes no pains whatsoever to do anything other than murder the largest number of people it can. And in the case of UNIFIL, you know, UNIFIL is part of the United Nations system. Israel has declared UNRWA, the UN

aid program for the refugees from its depredations in Palestine, to be anti-Semitic, illegal, and it is confiscating UNRWA's office space in Israel, planning to build a settlement on it. You know, at some point, the lies that this man and his propaganda apparatus issue become totally incredible, and I think that point has been reached. So UNRWA and UNIFIL are there by order of the Security Council, which means the United States of America voted in favor of it because the U.S. usually vetoes these things. And Netanyahu doesn't care and the U.S. doesn't care. Just like in this, well, when you were the ambassador in Saudi Arabia, if an American journalist had been arrested by the Saudis for reporting truthfully on military incursions that had already been reported by other journalists that had been approved by the Saudi military censors, wouldn't you have done something to get the American journalist out of jail? That's what just happened in Israel with Jeremy Lafredo. He happens to work for the Gray Zone, which of course has the same views that we do about the Israeli slaughter of innocents. And of course, it's the duty of an ambassador

to protect the American citizens who are in the country to which he or she is assigned. And I spent a lot of time doing this. In fact, my last call on then Prince Salman, now the king, in Riyadh, I said to him, actually, because we became good friends, I said, actually, your Royal Highness, this is the first time that I've ever been to see you when I've not been trying to protect

my women from your men. So yes, of course, it's the duty of an ambassador to protect Americans, whoever they are. And it's certainly the duty of the United States, which professes to have a First Amendment still, to try to do its best to ensure the freedom of the press and its unencumbered right to report the truth. So Jeremy Lofredo had two hearings before two different magistrates, both of whom ordered him freed. At each hearing, there were people from the State Department in the courtroom. Nobody said anything to him or to his employer, or as far as he or his employer know, nobody from the State Department lifted a finger. He's out of jail, but he can't leave Israel,

and they still have his wallet, his ID, his passport, his credit cards, and his mobile devices? From Israel as a democracy, to some extent still, for its Jewish citizens. It is a lawless totalitarian tyranny for everyone else. And the Palestinians, when people talk about Israel being the only democracy in the Middle East or whatever, it is a democratically administered totalitarian police state. And its specialty is the control of civilian populations with surveillance devices, with facial recognition technology,

and with the use of its armed forces to do whatever they want to do, regardless of legal restrictions. Ambassador, it's a pleasure, my dear friend, no matter how unpleasant the subject matter may be. Thank you for your insight. This is not just me. This is many of the viewers. Encyclopedic knowledge of so many of these things and for your personal courage in articulating it so understandably. Thank you, my dear friend. I hope you'll come back and visit with us again soon. I'll try to do so. Thank you. Coming up tomorrow at 11 in the morning, Colonel Douglas McGregor at two in the afternoon, Phil Giraldi, Judge Napolitano for Judging Freedom. Thank you.