Judging Freedom - Col. Karen Kwiatkowski: A Government of Cowards.

Starting point is 00:00:00 Thank you. Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here with Judging Freedom. Today is Tuesday, November 14th, 2023. It's, Chris is right here. It's three o'clock in the afternoon, a little after three. Karen Kwiatkowski joins us now. Colonel, thank you for joining us. Colonel Kwiatkowski's jet has been found. I'm kidding a little.

Starting point is 00:00:57 A lot of you have been writing funny one-liners. It wasn't Karen's fault. It wasn't my fault. We're both having gremlins today, but she's here with us. Colonel, it's always a pleasure. Thank you. Your favorite member of my household wants to see everybody. All right, Chris. Calm down. Dad's got to go to work. OK. We have a lot to talk about, including a dynamite piece that you just published called We Have a Government of Clowns, Clunkers, and Criminals, and We Have a Government of Cowards. But before we get

Starting point is 00:01:32 to the points in there, there's a couple of things I want to address with you. The CIA has recently leaked to its favorite entity, the Washington Post, its third version of what happened with the Nord Stream pipeline, in which the CIA claims that a Ukrainian colonel who just happens to be in jail because allegedly of some effort to seduce or induce a Russian pilot to defect, which ended up in people getting killed. And the colonel is claiming, yeah, I orchestrated a Nord Stream pipeline, and that would mean that General Solution knew about it, but they kept President Zolensky in the dark. I mean, this means nothing compared to me, to the evidence.

Starting point is 00:02:19 There's the colonel. He's not in a jail cell. He's in a holding cell in a Ukrainian courtroom. As you may know, Colonel, not from personal experience, the Eastern European countries put the defendant in a cage. Sometimes the cage is bars. Sometimes the cage is glass. There he is. So I know this is absurd, but why would the CIA be leaking this now? Well, I mean, it's possible that they want to create an excuse for us to abandon Ukraine, the Ukraine effort, because I think that's what's happening.

Starting point is 00:03:08 And we are, of course, at fault. We're the ones that caused the whole thing. But now that the money's run out, we have a new Gaza exercise we want to spend money on. An election year coming up. It's a big failure in Ukraine. So they want to put some distance. So maybe there's that. But I have to tell you, I didn't realize when I read the article, I didn't realize he was in jail. So basically, he's like a jailhouse stooge, kind of. I mean, he's saying, I've got a great story. Can you cut me some slack here? Let me tell you this. I didn't realize that initially, but I didn't believe it at the time. Now, look, we know, and of course, you're right

Starting point is 00:03:36 on the mark with Ukraine failing and with America and the West losing enthusiasm for it. And if the Republicans in the House stick to their guns, if the Republicans in the House stick to their guns, if the Republicans in the House stick to their guns, I don't know how many times I can say if, then Ukraine is not going to get any more money. Lindsey Graham can cry and scream all he wants, and Joe Biden will not have the discretionary funds available to him, and Ukraine will be shut down in a matter of weeks, I would think. However, this does play up if there's any truth to it. If there's truth to the fact that he made the

Starting point is 00:04:14 allegations, not truth to the fact that he was involved in Nord Stream. I think Sy Hersh's piece is far and away the most credible piece that's been written on this. But the colonel is saying he did this at General Zeluzhny's command. Zeluzhny and Zelensky are at odds. This is the way wars and governments sometimes end. The senior political leader and the senior military leader are fighting with each other. General Zeluzhny told The Economist magazine the war is of stalemates. Zelensky's people erupted over this. General Zaluzny's chief of staff was assassinated when what he thought was a birthday

Starting point is 00:04:53 present exploded in his face and his chest. Maybe the colonel is just part of all of that coming apart. Maybe he's trying to negotiate to get out of jail. I don't know which it is. But does any of this tell you that the CIA was not involved in Nord Stream? No, nobody believes this stuff. This is as credible as the minnow, the Gilligan's Island crew with the six Sunday afternoon fishermen and ladies, that they're the ones who did it, which was the CIA's second excuse.

Starting point is 00:05:34 Yeah, no, it's true. The story, I think Cy Hirsch does have the best analysis and data on what really happened. This guy in jail, this colonel, seems to have some CIA ties anyway. So that actually supports what Cy was saying. And also, it's a great rationale for Zelensky to fire Zelensky. He can say, oh, he did this act and it's a terrible thing, whatever. Right, right. One last question before we get to your article about cowards and clowns. Why are Black Hawk helicopters crashing? Why are they coming down? Do you know from your experience in the Air Force? You know, it's not my area of expertise.

Starting point is 00:06:20 What I do know about helicopters is they're very dangerous. They do tend to, you know, if you have a problem in a helicopter, you're not going to glide your way to safety. So we know that. I think the Blackhawk is maybe showing its age a little bit, too, as a platform. It's been around for quite a long time. I can't really say. say it's, uh, we have, if we have 2000 Marines on an aircraft carrier off the coast of Gaza and, uh, the president orders them on the beach, how would they get to the beach? Is it helicopters? Well, I mean, they, the Marines are known for their, uh, sea, their, their littoral approaches, you know, from the ocean. Um, so there's. But, yeah, I mean, helicopters would come into play to some extent.

Starting point is 00:07:07 It's hard to say what this government is thinking in terms of how we're using our military. I don't think they've thought deeply about it. Okay. Can you tell me how the Secretary of State is thinking when he suggests to Prime Minister Netanyahu, why don't you use smaller bombs and then have a break in the genocidal slaughter for a few hours and then go back to it? Yeah, well, he said it. You know, I mean, that is so ignorant that you almost can't believe that he verbalized that and allowed it to be reported. I mean, it's really insane if Americans are that stupid, if he is the voice of American foreign policy and he's that stupid to have that lack of self-awareness and just pure idiocy.

Starting point is 00:08:05 What does it say about our whole country and our government? It's a shame that he, you know, and he hasn't even he hasn't backtracked what he said. I guess he's hoping it'll go away. Yeah, clearly, you know, the United States. What does the American government? Well, I know that's the wrong word. What does the American government, well, I know that's the wrong word. What does the Biden, a phrase, what does the Biden administration want here? What is the Biden administration's goal?

Starting point is 00:08:33 We are supposedly hip by hip with Israel, but yet old Joe says two-state solution and Lincoln says two-state solution. And Netanyahu says absolutely not netanyahu says we're going to keep uh killing until we degrade hamas oh and by the way it'd be nice to get the hostages out uh as well jake sullivan says two-state solution and uh stop all the killing and get the hostages out these These people, do they talk to each other? Because, my view, from other guests and just from my own reading, if the United States wanted that war in Gaza to stop, they could stop it in five minutes. Yeah, that's absolutely true.

Starting point is 00:09:21 In fact, instead of doing that, we sent additional, very urgent rapid response weaponry to them to use on Gaza. So what we have is a very dishonest American government who has been talking in Washington in the think tanks about a two-state solution that Israel does not want and does not believe that it has to accept. Israel's government believes that they have the power to ultimately wipe the word Palestine from any map and have the whole country as they wish, and perhaps even expand it beyond the borders of original Palestine. That's what Israel wants, and they haven't been shy about saying that. But in this country, in Washington and in our policy circles in Congress, we say, oh, there's a way. There's a way that people can have peace in the Middle East and that Palestinians and Israelis can live together.

Starting point is 00:10:14 And we think it's a two state solution. It's very it's very, you know, catchy. It's very repeatable. Multiple Republican and Democrat administrations have all talked about that, like it's going to happen. In fact, it has never been accepted by Israel. It's not advocated by Israel. They don't want it. Why would you want it when you can take everything through force and you control the mouthpieces in this country? You control the politicians, the Congress and the media in the United States. Why would you accept a two-state solution? They've never wanted that. saying what they hope for, even though they know this will never happen as long as Benjamin Netanyahu and his right-wing cabal run the government. There might be other governments in Israel that would look at this difference. Surely somebody's going to succeed Netanyahu.

Starting point is 00:11:16 Well, I think in terms of Jake and Blinken saying this, I think this is the practice of almost year upon year of deceitfulness. I don't think they really want it. I think it's unfortunate. I think they see this thing as unfortunate because it's bad publicity for Israel. I don't think they see it as a real long-term problem. They're cheering it on. And clearly our actions speak louder than words. We have poured for years many bad examples of behavior by Israel. But just recently, in terms of Gaza, we've poured weapons in there that they're dropping on the Gazans. Meanwhile, we say in English to the American audience, oh, you know, we want a two state solution. Oh, we want to pause. We don't want them to use the weapons. We just sent them for free.

Starting point is 00:12:02 No, our actions communicate that what Bibi wants, we want. Here's Jake Sullivan now, the president's national security advisor. This is only about four or five days old. Cut for Chris on who governs Gaza when this is over. Secretary Blinken has been clear that it's the West Bank and Gaza that need to be under unified control and the Palestinian Authority likely to govern that. It doesn't sound like the Netanyahu government is on the same page as the Biden administration because the prime minister said something very different just yesterday. Well, from our perspective, the way forward, the basic principles of the way forward are straightforward. And this is something that Secretary Blinken laid out publicly this past week. No reoccupation of Gaza, no forcible displacement of the Palestinian people.

Starting point is 00:12:59 Gaza can never be used as a base for terrorism in the future, and Gaza's territory should not be reduced. Secretary Blinken also said that ultimately we do want to see the reconnection, the reunification of control between the West Bank and Gaza under Palestinian leadership. The Palestinian Authority is the current leadership on the West Bank. But ultimately, it's going to be up to the Palestinian people to decide their future, who governs them. There haven't been elections held in ages. Well, that's right, Margaret. There haven't been elections held since the early 2000s. But post-October 7th, we can't go back to the way things were on October 6th.

Starting point is 00:13:40 I mean, I don't know what newspapers he's reading or what his source of information is. What does he mean, no displacement of people? They've displaced 1,700,000 innocent human beings so far. Even Netanyahu has said very clearly, we will run Gaza. Okay, it's a concentration camp. You want the guards to be more visible. I don't understand who Jake is speaking to. And I don't it doesn't seem like he understands what's really happening or he really is an amazing liar.

Starting point is 00:14:18 It's possible that he is. He clearly when he said there's no relocation of Gazans, that's already happened. And not only that, we've seen just the limited images that we can see, you know, of whole, you know, the northern part of Gaza is almost completely inhabitable. It is flattened, you know, the buildings are not, you know, livable. You know, so has he not seen this? Does he not understand? So what informs him? And I think what informs him is a very arrogant view of what he wants for the United States and what he wants for Israel. And quite frankly, it's very close to what Bibi wants. But unfortunately, Netanyahu, when he says it has, of course, now there's airspace between the Biden administration and Netanyahu.

Starting point is 00:15:09 So, well, how do I put a Band-Aid on that? Because really, nothing that Jake says and nothing that he said there is going to change a thing. It's not even accurate in describing what's already happened. But certainly there's no intent there. And I noticed he said that the Palestinians should govern themselves. And then he talked about the West Bank. We're not even there yet. That's coming next. I just don't get him. It's a shame. Will the Israeli public

Starting point is 00:15:37 hold Benjamin Netanyahu responsible for what happened on October 7th? I'm pretty sure half of them already do, at least half of the people. And Israelis are not as pro-Israel sometimes as Americans are in some ways. They live there, they face the consequences of their government's actions and of their own actions. And they kind of understand this. And many are quite, quite liberal in an American sense of being liberal. So I think that I think they will hold him responsible. I think they already do. He's on his way out. Even a great victory and a Gaza takeover is not going to save Netanyahu. Here he is on whether he, cut six, Chris, whether he will take responsibility.

Starting point is 00:16:31 Listen to these answers, not answers. Whether he will take responsibility for October 7th. The one thing they want to hear from you is that you take personal responsibility for failing to prevent the October 7th attacks and protecting your people. I know you say the time for that will come after the war. Why won't you take responsibility now? I've already addressed that many times. And I said this whole question will be addressed after

Starting point is 00:16:56 the war, just as people would ask. Well, did people ask Franklin Roosevelt after Pearl Harbor that question? Did people ask George Bush after the surprise attack of November 11th? Look, it's a question that needs to be asked. And these questions will be asked. And I've said that one thing that is important, and I've said we're going to answer all these questions, including me. I'm going to be asked tough questions. Right now, I think what we have to do is unite the country for one purpose, one purpose alone, and that is to achieve victory. That's what I did. We formed a unity government where the country is united as never before. And I think that's what we have to pursue. And what the people expect me to do right now is two things. One, achieve this victory and bring

Starting point is 00:17:39 the hostages back. And second, assure that Gaza never becomes a place for Israel. And to Israelis who are disappointed that you still won't take responsibility, you say? Well, I said that I'm going to answer all the questions that are required, including the questions of responsibility. There'll be enough time for that after the war. Let's focus on victory. That's my responsibility now. believe, I don't want to get into the history, that they both knew that what happened, one knew what happened on December 7th, 1941 was coming, and the other knew what was coming on 9-11 or was stupid enough not to pay attention. Yeah, no, it's true. I thought it was interesting that he brought up those examples because- It's interesting he called 9-11 surprise attack because Phil Giraldi and Cy Hirsch have already reported that the Israelis knew about it ahead of time.

Starting point is 00:18:46 So it wasn't a surprise to them. Yeah. And it's also I'm surprised that as a as a as a leader, he's a longtime leader, of course, that he doesn't just say the words that I do take responsibility because all top guys do. I mean, you know, the the the top person in charge, political leader, whatever, has to accept responsibility. Now, they don't have to belabor the point, and he can still say, oh, we'll look into it later. But he's very reluctant to say that. And I think that is a sign of a great political fear in Netanyahu. You know, he understands how vulnerable he is and how much more vulnerable he is as a result of this, particularly the fact that I think the Israelis are pretty much in at least the majority, I think,

Starting point is 00:19:31 very maybe a slim majority. But I think many of them understand that that October 7th attack did not have to happen, should not have happened and was allowed to happen. And who else, you know, this is not good for any person in charge. And the Israelis are, it's a small country, but they are very politically active. They're very engaged in their, you know, in their countries. You know, they don't just turn their back. You know, Americans, we don't like to think about it. We're way too big.

Starting point is 00:20:01 But for Israel, people are engaged politically. So this will be, this is going to be a problem for them. There's something else that Bibi should be concerned about, and that is war crimes. But listen to this answer. Cut one, Chris. The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights said just this morning that while Hamas has committed war crimes, the collective punishment by Israel of Palestinian civilians amounts also to a war crime. Can you definitively say right now that Israel is not breaking international law? Yes, I can say that what the commissioner said is hogwash. Not a very compelling or credible answer.

Starting point is 00:20:49 No. I'm not surprised at any of this, Karen. I doubt that you are. Tell me why you make this argument that we have a government of clowns, clunkers, criminals, and cowards. It's a dynamite piece. Where did this piece appear? Lou Rockwell. All right. So if you want to go to lourockwell.com and look up Colonel Kwiatkowski, we have a government of clowns, clunkers, criminals and cowards. Why do you I know why you say that, but tell everybody else. Well, you know, I hadn't really been thinking about the cowardice aspect.

Starting point is 00:21:23 And I'll tell you, I was on a video and Ray McGovern came on a couple of days ago. And he didn't it's it's not what he said, but just Ray is a very inspiring guy. He's very courageous. He's been thrown in jail numerous times. He is extremely honest. And it struck me that, and again, even my own, I said, this is a criticism I have of myself. I said, you know, I'm safe, I'm happy. I don't take these risks. And then it bothered me a great deal. I was thinking about cowardice and how inexcusable it is for all of us. And of course, looking at our government, many of the problems we face today are direct result of the cowardice of the people in government, in our Congress, of presidents, to really say what they know is true. And while it doesn't directly relate to war,

Starting point is 00:22:22 but it does because it's money. But think about the debt that our country has, you know, the spending and, you know, the unpayable, what, $34 trillion in current debt, the unpayable entitlement program that we have. How did we get there? Well, nobody wants to stand for anything. They don't want to fight. In fact, the only, I mean, we think of Ron Paul, right? Ron Paul standing alone, speaking the truth, being courageous. We have Thomas Massey, we have Rand, but where are all the courageous people? And why are none of them, none of them in Congress and none of them are in Washington and none of them are on the news media. They are all they're just it's it's it's inexcusable. And so that cannot be our politic. Our political structure cannot be the model for our behavior. We have to be courageous. So how do we do that? Well, we need to find people that are facing down their problems.

Starting point is 00:23:21 And, you know, the legal I was going to actually ask you some questions about, you know, the legal, I was going to actually ask you some questions about, you know, the court system. But in that article, I mentioned a couple of things that really turned my stomach. And the Douglas Mackey case, he shared a meme that had to do with Hillary Clinton back in 2016. And a couple of days after Biden was inaugurated, they came and got him and threw him in leg irons in prison, didn't tell him what it was about. Finally, he got an attorney in there and explained to him that, you know, he had shared a meme back in 2016. So he's had his day in court. The federal government, the DOJ prosecuted him. This is the same DOJ, of course, that we see prosecuting Trump on some things like we don't know the difference between, you know, what the market rate is and what an assessment for tax purposes is.

Starting point is 00:24:13 You know, we don't we deny that there's any difference. You know, this idiotic things that the average American really recognizes as being pretty nutty. But the DOJ went after this guy, Mackey, and they actually judge shopped and what do you call it? What is the word? Venue shopped for a place where they could find a jury. This guy was convicted of a jury of his peers. Now, where's the one man out of the- Convicted of what? Sharing a meme that's protected by the First Amendment? Well, you would think so, but it also infected the 14th because it was that joke.

Starting point is 00:24:49 And I shared this meme myself, which I think back in the day, because it was, you can text your vote for Hillary. Text your vote for Hillary, right? It was hilarious. And the funny thing, if you watch the. I know the case. They accused him and convicted him of some sort of a conspiracy to get people to waste their vote because they thought they could text to their vote. Yeah. And not show up. They were depriving them of their right to participate in the vote. And the conspiracy, of course, was. I am I am not the standard judge

Starting point is 00:25:27 here because I'm so skeptical of everything government does. But even the standard judge, even the judge that gives government more credibility than I do, should have thrown this out. Even a second year law student who had taken the basic course in the Constitution and maybe the advanced course in the First Amendment, the courses that I taught at several law schools, would know that freedom of speech trumps lowercase t, these insane allegations. And the rule of thumb is, if there is any argument by which speech is protected, it trumps lowercase t, the alleged criminality involved in the speech. That's how the benefit of every doubt is given to the speaker, or should be, if a judge understood the history, meaning, and values behind the First Amendment.

Starting point is 00:26:21 That's right. But the government, to please its masters, Chris Wray, Merrick Garland, Joe Biden will do this. Speaking of those masters, the other day they stopped the mayor of New York on the street and demanded his cell phone because of some investigation of political fundraising three years ago. And his security detail, the toughest in the country, the best of the best, the NYPD, stood aside. Stood aside.

Starting point is 00:26:53 They should have arrested the FBI on the street. Keep your hands off the mayor. That's my job. You want the contents of his cell phone? Subpoena them from the service provider. Leave the man alone. Oh, well. his cell phone, subpoena them from the service provider, leave the man alone. But they all kowtowed because of the culture that, oh, the FBI is in town, we better obey.

Starting point is 00:27:12 Yeah. And so if people believe that and they're afraid, they act accordingly. And we cannot be afraid. And apparently there's a need for more role models of courage. And I think that's what- That's your point, Karen. And it's a great piece. That's your point. We need role models for courage. I agree with the role models you articulated, Thomas Massey and Rand Paul, but that's two. Two. Two W-O out of 535. The rest are welfare, warfare, big government, security state, borrow and borrow and borrow, the same mentality no matter which political party. Oh, there's a few more libertarians that vote with Thomas Massey, and there's one or two that will vote with Rand Paul, but you could count them on the fingers in your hands and you wouldn't use all of your fingers.

Starting point is 00:28:07 All the rest have the same mentality in Congress. No matter who's in the White House, whether it's Barack Obama, Joe Biden, George Bush, or Ronald Reagan, it's the same. Borrow, spend, borrow, spend, push the debt onto the future. That's why we have 33 trillion In debt I just had Kevin DeMeridon who Argues that at this interest Rate in another year the interest

Starting point is 00:28:34 On the debt One trillion a year Whatever the fact the IRS Collects right off the top one Trillion goes out to pay the bondholders And either that or They print more money to pay the bondholders, which, of course, causes other problems like inflation. All right, Karen.

Starting point is 00:28:53 Tell me one last thing in your piece, because this is something I feel so strongly about. And I once interviewed him before they put him in a hellhole in the Belmarsh prison, Julian Assange. Oh, wow. Yeah. Well, he shouldn't be even charged or wanted. He should be out of prison. He should never have been in prison. It's another First Amendment violation. And they say, well, he's not an American. Well, all the more reason that he has free speech outside of this country. Why are we charging him? It's the Trump administration that indicted him. President Trump once called for his execution, but before, in fairness to Trump, before he left office, he discussed seriously pardoning Assange. Obviously the security state people changed his mind.

Starting point is 00:29:48 It's true. I think his instincts there were right, but very much a disappointment because that should have been a day one operation for him, the pardon. Dropping of the charges completely, whatever. He did not do that. Yeah, this is a crime and this is something that has bothered me. I've written in the past about him. I didn't realize you'd interviewed him, but what they're doing to Assange, what they've done to him, it's inhuman. And the only reason they're doing it is because the deep state and our government is angry. Yes. They haven't harmed any person. No Americans are unhappy with what he has done. He is absolutely protected under the Pentagon Papers decision. No matter what the media, how the media gets it,

Starting point is 00:30:34 if it's in the hands of the media and the public is interested in it, the media is immune, civilly and criminally, from the publication of it. That's the lesson of Pentagon Papers. And when he published those tapes, and if you watch them, they're hard to look at because it shows people being evaporated by drones and the drone master, whoever's in the U.S., sends it laughing. It's a huge embarrassment to the Bush administration and exposed them for lying, just like the Pentagon Papers was a huge embarrassment to the LBJ administration and the Nixon administration and expose them for lying, just like the Pentagon Papers was a huge embarrassment to the LBJ administration and the Nixon administration and exposed them for lying. Yeah. Well, I wanted to, in the fact that our government is highly vulnerable,

Starting point is 00:31:17 they're very sensitive to criticism, they're very sensitive to embarrassment, more so even than ever before. And so I think this is an opportunity for all of us to realize it doesn't take much to push back against really bad government. We have really bad government, had a really bad government for a long time. So, you know, we should be courageous. We should have role models and they're everywhere that can push back just a little bit. And we need to do that, all of us. This government can't control people, and it has far less ethics and morality than your average American does. So why would you listen to them? Chris, put that full screen up again. I want to read it out loud for those catching the show on

Starting point is 00:31:59 audio only. This is a quote from Assange. What is the purpose of journalism if you can't expose war crimes safely? I mean, he's right. What more horrific thing does government do that should be exposed than war crimes? If you can't do that safely, then the concept of journalism, the concept of, this is my column this week, which comes out tomorrow night, whatever happened to the freedom of speech, that concept is out the window. Karen, I'll let you go. Even when we discuss unpleasant things, it's a delight to be with you. One of the writers, I don't know what this means, but apparently your first name, Karen, was used as some sort of an insult not too long ago. I don't even want to get into it. This writer says, Colonel Kwiatkowski puts respect back into the word Karen.

Starting point is 00:33:02 Oh, that's great. That's great. Love you, Karen. Thank you. First time I saw a kiss at a Colonel. Thank you for, thank you for joining us until next week, my dear friend. Absolutely. Thank you. All the best. All right. I'll rest my voice for half an hour and we have the one, the only, the great and I have a feeling he's angry again. Scott Ritter at 4 30 eastern today

Starting point is 00:33:29 how close are netanyahu and company to using nuclear weapons on helpless gaza judge napolitano for judging freedom Thank you.

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Judging Freedom - Col. Karen Kwiatkowski: A Government of Cowards.

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Judging Freedom - Col. Karen Kwiatkowski: A Government of Cowards.

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