Judging Freedom - Col. Karen Kwiatkowski: Has US crossed the Rubicon in its military support for Israel?

Episode Date: October 25, 2023

About Col. Karen Kwiatkowski:Karen is a retired U.S. Air Force Lieutenant Colonel whose assignments included duties as a Pentagon desk officer and a variety of roles for the National Security Agency. Since retiring, she has become a noted critic of the U.S. government's involvement in Iraq. Kwiatkowski is primarily known for her insider essays which denounce a corrupting political influence on the course of military intelligence leading up to the invasion of Iraq in 2003. In 2012, she challenged incumbent Bob Goodlatte, in the Republican primary for Virginia's 6th congressional district seat in the United States House of Representatives and garnered 34% of the Republican vote on a constitutional and limited government platform.While in the Air Force, she wrote two books about U.S. policy towards Africa: African Crisis Response Initiative: Past Present and Future (US Army Peacekeeping Institute, 2000) and Expeditionary Air Operations in Africa: Challenges and Solutions (Air University Press, 2001). She contributed to Ron Paul: A Life of Ideas, (Variant Press, 2008) and Why Liberty: Personal Journeys Toward Peace and Freedom, (Cobden Press, 2010). She has been featured in a number of documentaries, including "Why We Fight" in 2005.[2] She has written for LewRockwell.com since 2003See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Thank you. Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Tuesday, October 24th, 2023. Colonel Karen Kwiatkowski joins us now. Colonel Karen, it's a pleasure. Welcome back to the show and thank you for your time. What do you think the United States hopes to gain out of its unstinting support, financial and military, maybe even urban guerrilla warfare for Israel? It's almost as if they're responding to domestic pressures more than anything else, because if we viewed the situation purely in terms of America's interests, which we don't in the case of Israel, I think we would have a much different response than what we're having. We are joined at the hip with Israel,

but at some point, decision-making of this country is harming our own country and harming our interests and potentially causing a problem, not just for Israel, but also a problem for us that we can't get out of. How is American aid to Israel harming the United States? Well, as the unipolar world changes into a multipolar world, and we're just one of many great countries, great nations that serve as models for others, our blind support for Israel, which is what it has been really since the beginning, has caused us, we're judged more. And since we're not the top dog anymore, people can choose which countries they want to emulate, which countries they want to be associated with, and which countries that they don't. So our actions vis-a-vis Israel, particularly, it's not a good look. It's driving away allies. It's causing some allies or potential allies to decide to step away from the United States, keep a little distance.

How unwise would it be for Joe Biden to commit American ground troops to the invasion of Gaza. We understand from our friend and colleague and your colleague as well, Colonel Doug McGregor, that there are special forces on the ground, American special forces on the ground already in Gaza. How dangerous is that for them as well as for Israeli soldiers, two-thirds of whom are reservists, were not in the military two weeks ago? Yeah, it's extremely dangerous for Israel's army. And they understand this. I think the Israeli leadership understands this. But for us, you know, are we going to sacrifice our people? For what purpose? We're not in charge of Israel's foreign policy.

We might think we influence it. We really don't. Israel makes its own foreign policy up. It makes its own decisions. And we're getting, if we are putting ground troops in, and certainly I know Colonel McGregor mentioned generals advising their generals, our generals advising theirs. So we're getting involved in something that not only is not in our interest, but is very much not in Israel's interest. And the question is why? There is no, you know, what possible Mideast objective is the United States supporting by doing this? It's not clear at all. So the Arab world believes, rightly or wrongly, that Israel is engaged in some sort of ethnic cleansing. Israel doesn't view it that way. The United States doesn't view it that way.

But is the United States sort of painted with the same brush in the Arab mind as Israel has painted because of this now side-by-side standing with them in the streets of Gaza? Absolutely. And it's not just that, but the weapons, American weapons have been dropped on Gaza and every other place in the Middle East, some by us and often in Israel's area of operations by Israel. So for many years, the United States is just as evil in their minds as Israel is, just as brutal, just as heartless, just as, I don't know, greedy. I'm not sure the various reasons that they are unhappy with Israel's behavior. It's the same, we're painted with the exact same brush and for good reason.

From your military experience, how dangerous is it for us to have an aircraft carrier in those sort of supporting vessels a few miles off the coast of Gaza in the eastern Mediterranean, and then another one in the Persian Gulf. Yeah. This, you know, it's not just an aircraft carrier. There's a whole fleet of ships that support that. To me, every one of them is vulnerable. And they weren't so vulnerable 20 years ago. But if you look at the weapons that are available to a number of countries that can be, you know, that can hit these carriers and other ships that are defending them with really a moment's notice with no. I mean, I think we're highly vulnerable. And I think I wouldn't be surprised if the guys on those carriers also feel vulnerable, the ones who really understand. So it's a show thing. It looks good on TV. It really does. It's the carriers are there, the carrier group.

But to me, it's additional unnecessary targets in a world that's changing when Washington doesn't seem to understand that it's changing. You know, it's almost like they're living in the past. Tell me about the changing world and tell me about from whom the danger to those ships will come. Is it Iran? Is it Hezbollah? Is it Turkey getting angry at our saber rattling so close to its shores? There are any number of countries or movements within countries even that can do damage to our carriers or some of the ships that are associated with those carriers. But the problem is, it's a very attractive if you're if you're a country, let's say Israel, and you really think America's America's wavering, perhaps not going to stay on your side. They could do it. OK, and it wouldn't be the first time they've attacked an American ship, as we well know. But there's many countries out there that can do it. And many countries, including Israel, have submarines that, you know, you can say, oh, we know where the submarines are. Well, maybe you do and maybe you don't. Meaning the presence of the ships is a provocation to our ally, Israel, and to our

potential adversaries. So we have this ship, this fleet in the Persian Gulf. We have this fleet in the eastern Mediterranean. Then we have Senator Lindsey Graham going on television from Israel asking that an American reporter that asked a perfectly legitimate question be fired. Reporter is not going to be fired. And then saying we should bomb Tehran tomorrow. Yeah. How poorly does that bode to our allies and to our adversaries? Well, I mean, he's made a fool out of himself on the global stage, but of course, he's a very dangerous fool. He's articulating something that a number of people in Washington believe and think would be a great idea. It's not a great idea, extremely

wrongheaded idea, and of course for us, very dangerous. It's almost as if they, it's almost as if some of the folks in Washington really would like to have World War III. They actually think there will be some benefits to them if they can go ahead and get this thing started. And normally I would just think they're crazy, but our country is in such financial straits. And we also have internal political problems. A number of things are impacting our government's ability to keep the gravy chain rolling, basically. So that's the time.

That's the time when countries seek war, because war allows them to shut everything down, do what they want with the money, print all they want. I mean, it historically is a kind of a solution to a failing state. They seek war. And that's the only context that I can understand what Lindsey Graham is saying. We're going to take a break. When we come back, I will ask Colonel Kwiatkowski about the influence of propaganda on war and on people like Senator Graham and his colleagues in the Congress. But first this.

Hi, everyone. and on people like Senator Graham and his colleagues in the Congress. But first this. Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Lear Capital. You all know that I am a paid spokesperson for Lear Capital because it's the right thing to do because the government is regulating too much and printing too much money and reducing the value of everything you earn and everything you own. And the best hedge against this is gold and silver. That's what I've done. I know the folks at Lear. I trust the folks at Lear. I've worked with the folks at Lear. And I use their advice when it comes to my investing in gold and silver. You should do the same. Call them at 800-511-4620 or go to learjudgenap.com. You'll have a very nice conversation with a very knowledgeable person who will send you literature to read, which you can

review with your spouse and your financial advisor, and then you can call them back and decide what you want to do. Why Lear? Lear has 25 years experience and thousands of five-star reviews and a 24-hour risk-free guarantee. And when you have this conversation with a Lear representative, you'll find out if you can qualify for a $15,000 gold bonus. So call Lear now, 800-511-4620 or learjudgenap.com. Your and my friend and colleague Matthew Ho just three weeks ago characterized the American involvement in Ukraine as the most heavily propagandized war in the modern era. Last week, he changed his mind. It's now it's now now Israel's defense against Gaza. Propaganda, is it aimed at people like Lindsey Graham and other members of Congress? Is it aimed at the American public? Is it aimed at both?

Well, it has to be aimed at both. I think the American public can be somewhat excused, I think. Not entirely, but somewhat excused because they are targeted heavily with propaganda. And many people in this country really don't have the inclination or the ability to spend the time to see through it. In the case of senators like Lindsey Graham and others, they should know better. They witness and participate in governing to the degree where they see how lies work and how storytelling works and how narratives work. They use it themselves when they get elected. It's part of campaigning. So they're very knowledgeable about this. So I don't give him a pass that he's

been propagandized in any way. And Congress, members of Congress, the senators, they have every, every opportunity to ask for information from the intelligence community and accept it, to use it, to clarify it, to question it. They can, they really have, we pay for that. We pay for them to be informed. And so he is willfully uninformed. He's not a victim in any way of propaganda. He's part of this, part of the problem. And most likely because of who has paid for his campaigns and how compromised he is by not just the military industrial complex, but certainly the governments, foreign governments, which are very interested in keeping him as an internal ally. What is the danger or likelihood, choose whichever word you want, of Russia inserting itself somehow in the Israeli-Gaza war.

I mean, for example, if what Senator Graham has asked for were to come to pass, I mean, you're talking about a major expansion of the war. It's hard to believe Russia would stay out. But you think President Putin sees some sort of an advantage even now, just two weeks into the war? Well, certainly I don't think he's going to allow Israel or us to really mess with Syria too much. We have already seen that Putin's air force is willing to go right up against the American and NATO aircraft that are flying over our eastern, northeastern Syria, which we're occupying, actually, with our own troops, with a small base of a thousand folks or so. And the national security justification for that is? They have oil, and we would like to have some of that oil and not pay for it. I couldn't resist interrupting you, Karen, forgive me. Please continue.

Yeah. So we have troops in Syria, which I think should in some ways maybe prevent Israel from moving in that direction. If it thought it was to its advantage, it might resist doing that. But certainly Russia is there. I think Russia has intelligence over the region, surveillance, just like most countries do. So they kind of know what's happening. They're kind of looking if they, you know, we look at how Russia decides to do things and they are, whether it's Putin or the Russian military, but they seem to me relatively cautious, even in the Ukraine thing. I mean, the biggest complaint that many Russians had was he took too long. Putin took too long to pull the trigger to go and protect these Russians in the Donbass that had been bombed since 2014 by Kiev. So,

you know, they seem to think things out. They seem to look at, they seem to be fact-based, more fact-based perhaps than we are. But what is the American endgame? I mean, I hate to keep using Senator Graham as an example, because he's such an extreme example, but what is the American endgame of its involvement in, other than domestic politics, in the Israeli-Hamas war? We know the endgame in Ukraine is they somehow think using Ukraine as a battering ram will drive President Putin from office. And somehow his 86 percent approval rating will sink down to 36%, which Joe Biden's is. That's extremely unrealistic, as we know. It's also unrealistic to think that American aid can drive the Russians out of eastern

Ukraine from protecting the Russian enclaves there, driving out of Crimea. What is the realistic American end game in Israel-Hamas? Well, maybe we should ask Joe Biden. He gave a big speech on this last week. He's got thousands of the soldiers, sailors, and Marines on their way there. Yeah, yeah. I don't remember any declaration of war from the Congress. Oh, no, no, no. They don't they don't need that. Again, I see it mainly as a knee jerk response to Netanyahu, perhaps who has a long relationship with American presidents. Netanyahu is on the ropes. I mean, he was on the ropes before this happened politically.

The Israel politics are split. They're divided in many ways. There's a left. There's a right. The right has power. The right coalition of the right has the decision-making power. Without Netanyahu, many of those other guys have nothing but contempt for the United States, okay? A major complaint in Israel is why are we so dependent on the United States for this aid, this military, this technology? Why do we allow ourselves to be restricted by Washington? That's how, I mean, we would feel the same way in our country. So there's a lot of that that goes on. Netanyahu himself is associated with the United States. It is possible, I'm not going to put words or thoughts into Biden's head, I have no idea what the man's thinking,

but it's possible that they are trying to show support for Netanyahu in hopes that he won't be removed and in hopes that the government that follows him, which will probably be a conservative government or a right government, will still be our friend, that will not cause problems or embarrassment for us. I think that's a poor excuse. I don't think they even think that way. But that could be one possible thing, that they want to ensure American diplomatic relations with Israel and the purchasing of weapons systems. There's billions of dollars every year that Israel buys from us. And, you know, a lot of congressmen, a lot of senators like Lindsey Graham would like to see that keep happening. And it may not happen. There's a movement, Israel's a country like any, they have their own interests, okay? They don't like to be other people's lapdogs.

And one of the criticisms, both inside and outside of Israel, is that they are too dependent on the United States. This is a problem for them. So maybe they're saying, well, if we help them clear out Gaza and protect them, they'll feel like they owe us something. So after Netanyahu, which is coming, that time frame after Netanyahu is very soon upon us, that then after Netanyahu, we'll still have this great purchase relationship with them in terms of arms and that kind of thing. That's the only logical thing I could see why they would do it. It is not in the United States' interest to get involved in that kind of war. And it's certainly in this era of visual information, whether it's propaganda or actual information, People's emotions are easily turned against both Israel and the

United States when we talk about Gaza in particular, because it is, well, it has been described as an open-air prison. There are 2.6, sorry, 2.3 million people, but half of those never voted for Hamas in 2007 because they weren't born yet. So, you know, are they guilty? You know, can you punish them collectively? Well, this is an academic thing. Around the world, looking at this, many Americans, even some Israelis, see this as being a wrong thing to do. And yet we're diving in. Whatever Netanyahu wants, we're here for you, buddy. It's a sign of not just a declining empire, which is what the United States is, but one that is very close to its own end. a significant escalation on our troops in the region. Cut one, Austin, Chris. What we're seeing is the prospect of a significant escalation of attacks on our troops and our people throughout the region. And because of that, we're going to do what's necessary to make sure that our troops are in a good position,

they're protected, and that we have the ability to respond. Now, this additional deployment sends another message to those who would seek to widen this conflict. As President Biden said earlier, and as you've heard me say, if any group or any country is looking to widen this conflict and take advantage of this very unfortunate situation that we see. Our advice is don't. Can I suggest, Mr. Secretary, it is we who are widening the conflict? You just sent 25 ships, 25, counting both groups now, Eastern Mediterranean and Persian Gulf. And why the Persian Gulf? To make Senator Graham happy? Sure. I mean, I guess many of these people in Washington and Americans too, perhaps, for the last 30 years, we have certainly felt that all of the Middle East is our playground.

It's our military playground. It's our interest area, whether it's oil or we're going to, you know, get rid of Saddam Hussein or we're going to hunt down bad terrorists in Afghanistan and turn it into a democracy. You know, we think that it is our job to do this. Of course, we take many advantages for ourselves, like, you know, some Syrian oil gets stolen. You know, we let Israel pretty much get itself in a bad situation, which it has been. I mean, it's a hated country in that region. And so we say, well, we're going to prevent problems. We are the problem in the Middle East, and we have been for a long time. It's increasingly obvious, even to our allies, our newer allies, you know, not just Saudi Arabia, but, you know, some of the other countries there that we weren't so friendly with. And they see us as a problem.

They see us as an instigator of instability. In fact, the wars that we fought there, 91, 2003, Afghanistan for 20 years. That didn't add stability. That did not create an improvement in anyone's lives over there. It did not improve the leadership of the political parties or any of the countries over there. It didn't make us more liked. You know, it was just our playground. And I think it's people, you know, Americans don't think of it that way, but the people, they are due. They realize exactly what we do, what we do and how we do it

and what we stand for. You talk about old friends and new friends. Chris, I'm going to call for cut six on the old list. The King of Jordan, who the last minute said to Joe Biden, don't bother showing up. But here's what he said at the Cairo peace conference late last week. The relentless bombing campaign underway in Gaza, as we speak, is cruel and unconscionable on every level. It is collective punishment of a besieged and helpless people. It is a flagrant violation of international humanitarian law. It is a war crime. Anywhere else, attacking civilian infrastructure and deliberately starving an entire population of food, water, electricity,

and basic necessities would be condemned. Accountability would be enforced immediately, unequivocally. First, an immediate end to the war in Gaza. The protection of civilians and the adoption of a unified position that indiscriminately condemns the targeting of all civilians in line with our shared values and international law. Second, the sustained and uninterrupted delivery of humanitarian aid, fuel, food, and medicines to the Gaza Strip. Third, the unequivocal rejection of the forced displacement or internal

displacement of the Palestinians for the Jewish people, for Christians, for Muslims alike, starts with the belief that every human life is of equal value and it ends with two states, Palestine and Israel, sharing land and peace from the river to the sea. The time to act is now. Realistic or a pipe dream, Karen? Well, it's the only way forward. I mean, unless we want to kill everybody and have a World War III over it. Peace has to prevail. It hasn't because the United States has lied about its interest in a two-state solution. For years and years, the State Department and our various presidents have said, oh, a two-state solution. Sure, let's try that.

And it's all been a superficial lie. Israel has not wanted that and has not had to move in that direction, and so it hasn't. And everybody in that room and everybody who watches that, who understands anything about the Middle Middle East knows that what the King of Jordan was saying is true. And it's interesting that he said it with knowledge and passion. And I just can't get out of my head. I had to watch Biden's speech last week when he asked for the aid for various wars that he's involved in. And, you know, he had no passion. He had no knowledge.

He's reading from a teleprompter and slurring his way through. Not sure what he really understands, but people that care, that are competent, that are responsible in that region to make a better future for their kids. And that's everybody. That's all the people that are there. They all want the same thing, a better future for their children. You know, it's what he speaks is truth. We, by suborning ourselves to the current prime minister of Israel and not waking up to what's wrong with our own policy, we're going to be painted with that same brush of ultimate condemnation. And certainly, you can see why the King of Jordan did not want to waste his time speaking to Joe Biden. Karen Kwiatkowski, always a pleasure. Thank you for being so clear, precise, courageous,

and informed in what you tell us. The viewers of this show appreciate you more than I can say. We'll see you again. We'll see you again next week, Karen. Thank you very much. Coming up tomorrow, Colonel McGregor and Scott Ritter. Need I say more? Judge Napolitano for Judging Freedom. I'm out.