Judging Freedom - Col. Lawrence Wilkerson: American Empire Collapsing

Episode Date: July 11, 2024

Col. Lawrence Wilkerson: American Empire CollapsingSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Thank you. Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Thursday, July 11th, 2024. Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson joins us now. Good friend of the show. Colonel Wilkerson, it's a pleasure, my dear friend. Thank you for joining us. What is your view, Colonel, of the NATO saber rattling that has been going on this week and continues even as we speak in Washington, D.C., as NATO celebrates its 75th anniversary? You know, I just got asked that by a person with whom I've corresponded occasionally from TASS in Moscow. And he asked me if I would make a statement on it.

I made a statement on it. My statement essentially said the NATO insanity, the Washington insanity continues. We have essentially two goals, and they are simultaneously active. One is to prevent the defeat of Ukraine, and the other is to prevent a war between NATO, thus Washington, and Russia. And those two goals are becoming imponderable. They're becoming too heavy to be executed in any fashion that might bring success. And they are leading inexorably, I think, to a wider war and possibly even a nuclear war. So I was asked then, why do you think this is going on? I said,

well, I don't have any problem with figuring out why it's going on in Washington. Biden's going to lose. And he knows he's going to lose, or he's dumber than I think if he doesn't know he's going to lose. So he's desperate not to do anything to make things even worse while he tries to make them somewhat better, at least better enough to get reelected. And in Brussels, other than the Hungarians and the Slovakians, and now the French apparently, because the two, the rightists and the leftists are talking together and they have more seats in the assembly, they're talking about the Ukraine war being idiocy. And they're also talking about getting out of NATO, at least the military alliance as France once was. So they're insane too. And we're looking at that insanity,

bringing about a wider war in every respect, as far as I can see in this business of missiles, we don't even have yet. Sending missiles to Ukraine, we don't even have yet that the contractors are going to deliver in 2026 the most dangerous missiles in the world if they have nuclear warhead capability, and I understand they will have. It's like the INF Treaty banned nothing. They're coming back. It's just insanity again. Are you talking about the Tomahawks? No, I'm talking about the missiles they're talking about sending into Ukraine in 2026.

That, I think, was the decision of the summit. And as far as I can tell, these are ground-launched cruise missiles, Tomahawks or whatever you want to call them, but they're nuclear warhead capable. We had Tomahawk Ds in the Pacific. And I remember vividly Admiral Crowell, then the commander in chief of the Pacific, he told Ronald Reagan and he told General Bessie, his chairman of the Joint Chiefs, I don't want them pop guns out here with the conventional warheads. I want Tomahawk D's because the only way I'm going to get the Soviets attention if they start a war on the Western front in Europe is by hitting the Kamchatka Peninsula,

the eastern part of the Soviet Union, with nuclear warheads. Tell me if this will get the Soviet, well, now Russian, attention. Chris, cut number six. Even before Russian bombs were falling in Ukraine, the alliance acted. I ordered the U.S. reinforcements at NATO's eastern flank.

More troops, more aircraft, more capabilities. And now the United States has more than 100,000 troops on the continent of Europe. What the hell are 100,000 American troops doing on the continent of Europe unless they're a tripwire, Colonel? I can't imagine that 100,000 troops are there. Now, if they have put them in various NATO countries, Poland, Finland, Norway, in the last few months, then I'm unaware of it, at least that total number. But if they are there, you're right. That's an inconsequential number to the struggle that's already going on in Ukraine. It would have about as much impact as I've said before, putting your finger in the center of the Pacific Ocean, withdrawing it and hoping the ocean would be different. President Biden keeps insisting that after Putin, quote, takes Ukraine, he has desires on other countries in Europe. Is there any,

any evidence of which you are aware to support this neocon theory that the president of Russia wants to reassemble geographically the old Soviet Union? Quite the contrary. There's no evidence at all, and there is stark evidence, clarity, precision on the part of Putin's remarks and Sergei Lavrov's remarks that this is not about territory, it's about security. And I believe him because that is what it looks like to me as a military professional. It's about security. He does not like Ukraine being used as a possible mounting spot, if you will, for potentially nuclear warheads coming that close to Moscow. And I don't blame him at all. It'd be like putting them in Chihuahua, the state in Mexico,

or putting them in Cuba, of all things. And so he has no desire, nor does he have the capability to take on NATO from north to south. So it's preposterous. And every time Biden says something like that, he is either smoking some low-grade stuff or he's getting the worst possible advice from people like Blinken and Sullivan and even people like General Brown and Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin. Putin made about you shouldn't deploy missiles. You should not make Russia out to be the enemy. Joe, I'm adding Joe, you're only hurting yourself with this. They thought that Russia wanted to attack NATO. Have you gone completely crazy? It's obvious he's talking about the president,

Colonel. Who came up with this? It is just complete nonsense, you know, total rubbish. That's about as undiplomatic and sharp and candid as I have heard from Vladimir Putin, and we've been covering him now for three years. Well, imagine he's sitting at the other end of a war that, though it is going fairly well for him, if not very well, is nonetheless killing Russians. And you can't sustain that sort of thing indefinitely. And he is dealing, he thinks now, and I think he's right, he's dealing with people at the other end of the table, as it were, who were utterly insane. He can't figure it out. He thinks that at least from time to time, they perhaps dwell in the realm of logic and

sanity, but they don't. And that's got him perplexed. And frankly, I don't blame him at all. It's got me perplexed too. I've never seen such an idiocy in the American policy of security and foreign policy. Here's Viktor Orban in a very relaxed moment commenting on the manner of thinking employed by Vladimir Putin. Cut number five he is uh 100 more than 100 percent a rational person when he negotiates when he starts to explain a point when he makes a proposal saying yes or no he's super super rational how to say in hungarian cool-blooded you know cool-blooded low-profile cool-blooded you know, cool-bodied, low-profile, cool-bodied, you know, very cautious, punctual formation, you know, discipline. So it's a real challenge to have a negotiation

and to be prepared if you would like to keep the intellectual and political level of film. It goes without saying that his opposite number in Washington isn't even the shadow of that. Resolve to earn your degree in the new year in the Bay with WGU. WGU is an online accredited university that specializes in personalized learning. With courses available 24-7 and monthly start dates, you can earn your degree on your schedule. You may even be able to graduate sooner than you think by demonstrating mastery of the material you know. Make 2025 the year you focus on your future. Learn more at wgu.edu.

And I don't disagree with what Orban says from everything that I've seen of Putin, all the way from back when he was with the KGB, FSB, whatever they're calling it now. He's a very rational person. I don't care what his government policy is with regard to the Russian people, what his policy is with regard to being elected, whatever that is or isn't. I'm talking about his brain. I'm talking about the way he thinks. I'm talking about the way he expresses his thoughts. He's clear-headed. He's rational. He's prudent. He's pragmatic. And he's looking for an end to this thing. And he's looking to make at least what he should, he thinks, out of it. And I don't see why that's not a negotiable position. I would think Zelensky, if he weren't being inhibited by Washington, I would think he would want to do that forthwith,C. leaked before an official communique is released, and it hasn't been released yet as of Thursday afternoon, which referred to Ukraine's path into NATO as inevitable and irreversible.

Now, the Kremlin knows what those words mean. I thought it was scandalous for them to have put that out there. What did you think? I think it was scandalous, too, and I think it was intentional. They're either testing the waters, and they will subsequently say that, well, that wasn't, that was draft. That wasn't quite what we meant. They'll change the wording or they'll see how it resonates with the people they want to really check on, which is the political electorate in America and what the polls do. And they'll go with it. This is all about domestic politics. Otherwise, I have to say

they should be in an asylum. Here's Secretary Blinken yesterday at the NATO conference. He uses a very strange phrase here that we, the West, have built a well-lit bridge for Ukraine to enter NATO. I don't know if the references to that bridge that leads to Crimea that the West has been salivating about destroying, I don't know if there's a double entendre there, or if this is just Secretary Blinken's way of speaking, but take a listen to this, please, from yesterday in front of all of his NATO colleagues. Cut number 18, Chris. We have an incredibly robust package that will be unveiled over the next couple of days at NATO that builds a very clear, strong, robust, well-lit bridge to NATO membership for Ukraine, including, as you mentioned,

the first time NATO's dedicated a command to helping an aspiring country join the alliance. This in and of itself is extraordinary. Is that a diplomatic phrase, dedicated a command, or is that just his way of speaking? I think he's trying to describe something that the Supreme Allied Commander of NATO, who wears two hats, as you know, the U.S. Commander of U.S. Forces and also the Alliance. General Cavalli? Yeah, is going to put together.

And it's probably going to be a task force. One wonders what it's going to consist of. And it's going to be the force that is ready to go to Ukraine in the case they have to really build that bridge. And that's the way it's going to be the force that is ready to go to Ukraine in the case they have to really build that bridge. And that's the way it's going to be advertised. Another very dangerous step. Either that or it's just Tony Blinken trying to wax lyrical as if he were some kind of

foreign policy poet. Do you think these folks with their neocon attitude and culture and backgrounds would take us to war before November 5th in the hopes that the country would unite around our ailing president? Lord, I hope not. I've had visions of that in my worst nightmares. It's not beyond the realm of the possible, but I would lose and we don't start a war between NATO and Russia. Those are two contradictory strategic objectives now because of the way we've set about implementing them. To get out of that conundrum, we might well do what you just said, particularly if we have a president who desperately, and I'm amazed at the desperation I'm seeing from him, wants to be reelected, must think that that's part of his everlasting legacy,

that if he isn't, he'll be just defeated in his entire political life. That's terrible when someone covets a position that dramatically, that emotionally. And if that's the case, then I'm wondering what he might do to try and preserve the possibility. Colonel, before we segue into our conversation about the latest in Gaza, big picture, is the American empire collapsing? Yes, it is. The question, the key question for everyone to be asking themselves, especially those in leadership, is how fast? And then the second question is, how do we arrest it to a certain extent? You can't stop it. It's impossible. But you can arrest it and you can build a glide slope down which the empire slides, if you will, and comes down to be more of a partner

in a multipolar world, a partner of equals, really, not promise inter paris, but parries interparries, because there are equals in the world now. China, of course, is one of them. With nuclear weapons, you must say that Russia is one of them. And India comes very close to being one of them. It's a multipolar world now. You can't have a hegemon that is all things to all people 24-7. And we're in such colossal debt right now that if you don't believe the reckoning is coming, you've really got some blinders on. So Colonel, if you'll permit me, I'm going to translate your Latin. Prima inter pares means first among equals. Pares inter pares means equal among equals. Does the United States recognize that it has any equals economically, politically, militarily?

I think the answer to that question is in aggregate, yes. The defense and security complex does recognize China in that sense. And that's the reason they're so angry. China has stolen the march on them, and they're angry. And they see, some of them anyway, the only way to reverse that situation is a war. Colonel, segueing over to the other hotspot, which is Gaza. Since you and I spoke last, two reports have been released, one by the oldest and most highly respected medical journal in the world, the British Lancet, opining that 186,000 Palestinians have been killed from a variety of means, but since October 7th by the Israeli invasion there. And the other, a report from Haaretz documenting, using the government's own documents, the employment of the so-called Hannibal Directive and the conclusion that more than half the Israelis that were killed on October 7th were killed by the IDF. Let's start with the 186,000. Did this number startle you? That's 8%

of the population dead in nine months. It doesn't startle me because I've been getting figures like that from people I trust who are on the ground there. You know, Judge, I went through some history books the last two or three days trying to see if in the 20th century or the early part of this century, of course, there had ever been anything equivalent. And I stumbled on one of the things most Americans never read, and that is a European who is, he really is one of the finest, if not the finest, historian of World War II. And I got a passage out of there about a fellow by the name of Herbert Friedrich Wilhelm Backe, who was a Schutzstaffel SS. The Nazis wanted everybody to wear a military uniform, but more importantly, he was state minister of

agriculture and food. Right before Barbarossa, the invasion of the Soviet Union by Hitler's Germany, he gave Hitler a paper, and that paper Hitler then turned into orders to his Wehrmacht generals. The orders were something like this. Germany needs the food in Ukraine. It needs every grain of the food in Ukraine, and to a certain extent, the steps of Russia as you come out of Ukraine. enter into your ledgers and you will issue orders to your corps, your divisions, your regiments to kill everything that moves, dogs, cats, babies, children, horses, people, kill them all. Because if you do not kill them, they will have to have food that you need for the Wehrmacht going eastward and that you need to ship back to Germany so they can't do to us what they did in World War I, try to starve us out with submarine warfare and such. We'll have to feed the German people. So kill everybody. That's astonishing

when you read it and you know it's true. Well, that's what Netanyahu is doing. The number is simply terrifying and almost astronomical. You want to say that Bibi went to the school of Adolf Hitler. Yes, yes. You said a few shows ago here, you thought that Bibi might be the final prime minister of Israel. Do you still have that feeling? I think he might be the final prime minister of a Jewish state or anything that even claims itself to be a Jewish state. I don't think Israel can survive as a Jewish state. Have you ever heard in your familiarity with warfare, your career military, you were chief of staff of the State Department for a number of years, of a military directed to kill its own soldiers and civilians, even if it meant shooting them in the back and then giving it this

fancy historical name of the Hannibal Directive. I can imagine there were some Schutzstaffels, some SS, and perhaps even others, even gray uniform wearing Wehrmacht officers who were working for Hitler that perhaps did similar things in terms of individuals that they thought were going to be captured by the French or captured by the British or whatever. And so they killed them rather than allowing them to be captured. And I can even imagine people being sacrificial in that regard and wishing to die rather than be captured. But as a policy, as a military-wide policy, I find it reprehensible. I find

it truly draconian. They have not denied it, Colonel. No. Only the Americans have denied it. I'm looking for that. Chris, you have it.

Miller. Oh, number 14. Watch this, Colonel. I wanted to ask you first, if you read or heard about the Haaretz report on Israel employing the Hannibal directive on October 7th. So I did see that report that moved over the weekend. And that's the limit of my knowledge of seeing that report from Haaretz. Does that make you change your position or your perspective on what really happened that day, that the Israelis may be responsible for killing a majority of the people that died on that day? Boy, it certainly does not, Said. I don't think there's any question. I don't think there's any question that it was Hamas. Just let me finish.

I don't think it's any question it's Hamas that is responsible for the overwhelming number of deaths on October 7th. Not your State Department. I mean, what a frivolous response to a profound statement, the statement based on documents produced by journalists, Israeli government documents that the Israeli government hasn't even denied? No. Remember, I went through the Rachel Corey investigation with both the, well, actually with the Israeli civilian government, with the Israeli Defense Force, and with their adjutant general. I have no problem believing that this group of people, this IDF, this leadership of the IDF is capable of that sort of doctrine and capable of executing it. No problem whatsoever believing that. How deep is the cleavage between the IDF and Prime Minister Netanyahu?

I think it's fairly substantial now, but it's mostly a practical cleavage. That is to say, they're sick and tired of being put in circumstances where they're not winning, and they're not. They're clearly not winning. I mean, my God, they're adjusting their ranks right now and moving around back to the north where they thought they had cleaned Hamas out and they have done no such thing. Reservists are probably getting sick and tired of being on duty for another second or third go around and they're losing people. So there are some rational people in the IDF. There are some rational officers in the IDF. We wouldn't have breaking the silence in the movement that it constitutes if there weren't. So I imagine the tension's growing pretty hot right now. And I imagine that the leaders are aware of that tension. And it's probably being fed back to Netanyahu, but he's deaf and dumb to it.

Colonel, because of my vacation, we won't be speaking again for the next two weeks, but in that time period, well, God knows what's going to happen, but one thing that is scheduled is Prime Minister Netanyahu's treatment as a hero on the floor of the House of Representatives and all the hoopla that's going to accompany that. What do you think his goal is? Does he want to talk the American Congress into declaring war on Iran for him? He always has very, very specific goals when he comes to do something like this, when he comes to the United States period. One is to demonstrate to the Israeli people, particularly the Jewish Israelis, that he's the only one who has the United States in the palm of his hand. Two is to get

the rapport that he believes he has, and I think he's probably right about it in most instances, with some very key members of the U.S. Congress and the government in general, but the U.S. Congress in particular, warm again, to feely-feely and to let them know that they can touch his hands and he can touch their hands. They can touch his skirt as it were. And then the third reason he comes is because he gets a lot of juice from it himself. I've watched him in the past. He gets revved up when he comes to the United States because we let him know that he controls us. And that's very, very vivifying for him. It's what he lives for, really. And it gives him assurances that he'll be around for tomorrow and the next day and won't go

to jail. So those are the reasons he comes to the United States. There are some side reasons, like embarrassing the sitting president, if the sitting president is doing anything that he doesn't like, putting pressure on him, in other words, in order to change his ways. But those are the three primary reasons he comes here. Does he boast that he has the American government in the palm of his hand? Oh, he's done it before. I've heard him do it in English. Well, I'm going to play a clip for you of my friend and our colleague, Aaron Maté, on the Pierce Morgan Show, where he is interrupted by a spokesperson for the IDF, but he makes a very, very clear, convincing argument of the moral reprehensibility of their so-called Hannibal directive. I'd like your thoughts on this, Colonel. The difference is that now, finally, an Israeli newspaper, Haaretz, has acknowledged this and more Israeli military sources have come forward. The reporting from Maharetz says, according to one source,

that the order was to turn the south of Israel, that frontier with Gaza, into a killing zone, which is exactly what happened. It underscores that Israel has no concern for civilian life, not just inside Gaza, but also its own people, because it did not want to have Hamas take captives that could be used for negotiations to free Palestinian hostages. And that's been lost here. There are thousands of Palestinian hostages

in Israeli dungeons. And a major goal of Hamas here was to take captives and use them as leverage to free Palestinians who have been in Israeli dungeons for years and years and years. Excuse me, I didn't interrupt you. I did not interrupt you. I did not. I did not interrupt you, despite your many falsehoods. What you're saying is disgusting. Excuse me.

Excuse me. I didn't interrupt you. You're whitewashing Hamas's murder. And you're whitewashing mass murder, which is the whole point of suppressing the truth about October 7th. That's the phrase that went wild, viral, whitewashing mass murder. Do you agree with that? The mass murder is on the other side of the coin.

The mass murder is being perpetrated by Israel, and it's being perpetrated on Arabs, Palestinian Arabs. That's the reality of it, And that's the reality that really troubles me that we deny almost every day. I watch Medea and Benjamin with all these congressmen when she confronts them in the halls of the Congress. They've learned now, they've learned to stay away from her and keep their mouths shut. She's so distinctive with that pink shirt. Yeah. And in the beginning, she was walking alongside of him, and they would turn and say things like, I hope they kill every damn one of them. Right, right.

I'm sorry I can't be there and help them kill them. Right. We ran those clips. Yeah, they've learned. They've learned. Don't do that. Don't do that. The judge will play them.

Well, Colonel, it's a pleasure to chat with you, no matter what we're talking about, your insight and your courage are extraordinary. I'm deeply grateful, as is our large and growing audience. We recently broke 400,000 subscriptions. We are on track to hit 500,000 by Christmas in no small measure to your end of the week appearances with us each week. Thank you, Colonel. I'll be gone for two weeks. I hope we can see each other again at the end of July or at very early August. Thank you. And have a good time at Lake Como. Thank you. Thank you, Colonel. All the best. Take care. Great. A great man and a great interview. Coming up today at four o'clock, Professor John Mearsheimer, and at five o'clock, Max Blumenthal, Judge Napolitano for Judging Freedom. Altyazı M.K.