Judging Freedom - Col. Lawrence Wilkerson: Can the US Say NO to Israel and Ukraine?

Episode Date: December 16, 2023

In this riveting conversation, we are privileged to have Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson as our distinguished guest, as we tackle the pressing question: "Can the US Say NO to Israel and Ukraine?" Colonel Wilkerson, with his extensive background as a former chief of staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell, brings a wealth of knowledge and insight to the table.Our discussion revolves around the complex dynamics between the United States and two key geopolitical players, Israel and Ukraine. Together, we explore the challenges and implications of asserting independence in foreign policy decisions, particularly when it comes to these critical relationships. Colonel Wilkerson's deep understanding of international affairs and diplomacy will guide us through the intricate web of interests, alliances, and historical ties that shape America's interactions with these nations.#russia #ukraine #USMilitaryHistory #Israel #Gaza #ceasefire #hostages #Ukraine #zelenskyy #Biden #china #IsraelPalestine #MiddleEastConflict #PeaceInTheMiddleEast #GazaUnderAttack #Ceasefire #Jerusalem #prayforpeace #hostages #Israel #Gaza #ceasefire #hostages #Ukraine #zelenskyy #Biden #china #IsraelPalestine #MiddleEastConflict #PeaceInTheMiddleEast #GazaUnderAttack #Ceasefire #Jerusalem #prayforpeace #hostagesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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gentle guidance and encouragement to create these incredible changes for yourself and see what good can come from them. Trust me, listening on Audible can help you reach the goals you set for yourself. Start listening today when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com slash wonderyca. That's audible.com slash wonderyca. That's audible.com slash wonderyca. Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Friday, December 15th, 2023. Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson joins us on the show. Colonel, always a pleasure, my dear friend. Thank you for your time and for your insight and for coming back to the show. As we speak, Colonel, the President of the United States is twisting arms on Capitol Hill in an effort to get Congress to authorize more money to give to Ukraine.

He wants between $60 and $68 billion. And as we speak, his national security advisor is in Tel Aviv trying to persuade the Israelis to go a little lighter on their slaughter in Gaza. Question, what will it take for the United States to say no to Ukraine or to Israel? A lot, unfortunately. I think we are approaching a point where President Biden, because of domestic political concerns in both issues, Ukraine and Gaza, is apt to do some different things. I'm waiting for them to materialize. With regard to Ukraine, I think we've already seen the possible end. It just means getting there. to make Zelensky or whomever might replace him a hero by saying that like Finland in the Winter War, for example, against the Soviet Union when they were trying to take Finland, you won. You

held off the bear. You won. Look, your young people were brave, courageous, valiant. You held on to most of your territory. You remember Finland lost one of its great city-states and some of the territory around it. But the Soviets did not take Helsinki. They did not take Finland. And the Finns were much feeded during and after World War II for that. That's the kind of thing we need to do with Ukraine, to say it's a victory, it's not a defeat, and then get to the table and get the thing stopped, no matter how we Ukraine to say it's a victory, it's not a defeat, and then get to the table and get the thing stopped, no matter how we have to stop it, whether we have to put a demilitarized zone in there and police it for 75 years as in Cyprus or on the Korean

Peninsula, we need to get it stopped. And I think in Gaza, we're seeing some heavier ammunition being wielded too. I don't think it's heavy enough yet. And Netanyahu, you know, he's been caught off mic in English saying he controls the United States. He owns presidents of the United States. I think he thinks that. So we need some more, we need some heavier ammunition, I think, than what's been said. What's probably been said is, you know, if you don't curtail this somewhat, if you don't slow down, if you don't indicate pretty soon here that there's going to be a cessation, it's going to be hard.

It's going to be really hard for us to continue to support you. It needs to be rougher than that. It needs to be in your face. It needs to be first. You need to go. Likud, come over here. This man needs to go. If you don't get rid of him, we're going to stop everything. And then the second thing is Likud, whoever replaces him, and you're still going to be the party in power, you need to stop this, and you need to stop it tomorrow morning or next week at least. That's the kind of rhetoric that's got to take place. So one of our regular guests who's an expert on Israel,

who's American, who's Jewish, who has lived in Israel and who is harshly critical of the Netanyahu government has said that President Biden could stop this while we're doing this live stream with a phone call. No more spare parts to your weapons, no more ammunition. 14 days. 14 days they'd last probably in terms of ammunition. You anticipated my question as to how far they can go without us. Colonel Schaefer says they're good without us. Everybody else is saying what you're saying. They can't continue this rampage. Why would President Biden violate all the good legal apparatus we put in place for arms and send them under an executive order artillery rounds if that were the case?

So when President Biden did that, which was last weekend, was $106 million worth of artillery rounds, some small fire rounds. In order to do that, he had to invoke an emergency act. The emergency act requires a certification by the president or the secretary of defense or the secretary of state. You know this better than I. You were secretary of state, Colin Powell's chief of staff for a number of years, that there's a national emergency that materially affects the national security of the United States. Tony Blinken stated that under oath. Colonel, how could he possibly defend that position under oath? Because he's a liar. I mean, I can't say it any other way.

I can't say it anymore directly. He's a liar. And how these people conjure these lies and then go to bed at night or shave in the morning is beyond me but i mean i had problems after powell did the un presentation and we found out that the most important parts of it were fake were lies um i had problems with that very big problems in my life professional and. These people don't seem to have any problems. They just lie and lie and don't have any problems. What will happen if the Republicans in the House insist on no aid to Ukraine? Are they willing to horse trade? I don't know if there's principle involved here, but whatever. Let's say they don't get their horse trade and the House does not vote to give President Biden the 60 or 68 billion that he wants. How much longer can

Ukraine last? And in your answer, can you please take into account what the Defense Department sometimes does, which is to take money from column A and put it in column B. The Congress be damned. That could happen. It's happened before. It's happened when I was there in small amounts, but this would be a huge amount. And what we're talking about here is the executive branch challenging the legislative branch in a way that were I the leaders of the legislative branch, I would not tolerate. This is far more like an impeachable offense than some of the stupid things we've done in order to bring impeachment proceedings against sitting presidents. This is serious stuff. This is the legislative branch, which the founders meant to be the representatives of the people, that part of government closest to the people, being defied by the executive in order to kill people in foreign wars that clearly the American people, or at least the majority of them, ought to be able to figure out are not in U.S. interest.

Nicely put. Nicely put, Colonel. But you don't put it past them. If he's willing to lie under, oh, I'm talking about Secretary Blinken. If he's willing to lie under oath in order to pull 106 million. And Colonel, it's not like this is Ukraine. This is Israel. The Congress would give the president everything he wanted.

There was no reason to do this. But if he's willing to lie under oath in order to get that cash into Israel's hands on a weekend, or it's not cash, it's actual rounds, they'll certainly take money from column A and put it in column B. They don't care about a constitutional crisis. They're not worried about one because they want to kill. That looks to be the size of it. And for the life of me, I cannot, I've not been able to contemplate as a military say, reputation-diminishing way, which is everything we do for the United States, is an asset so much that we have to break our own laws to ensure its security, especially when that security is not really in jeopardy, not at the moment anyway. It might be being made in jeopardy by the very continuation

of this crisis, especially if Israel continues to essentially conduct a genocide. That might indeed jeopardize the security of the state of Israel. I think it already is, but it might do so existentially. That would be a security problem for the United States, but not the stoppage of it, not the cessation of it, not the humanitarian ceasefire that might take place. I mean, this is crazy. These people don't know how to determine our security interests. Of what value in the international perspective, politically, diplomatically,

or even militarily is Israel to the United States or is it all just domestic politics? Resolve to earn your degree in the new year in the Bay with WGU. With courses available online 24-7 and monthly start dates, WGU offers maximum flexibility so you can focus on your future. Learn more at wgu.edu. It's domestic politics primarily. It ceased being a strategic asset when the Cold War ended. You could maintain some sort of vision of Israel being at the top of the Levant and therefore in a very dangerous region day to day, but made so more so by the United States action in Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan than anything else. But you could argue that Israel was an island of stability.

And sometimes you could say it was democratic. It's not anymore. It's an apartheid theocratic state. It's as much a theocratic state as is Iran, because that's what the truth is about the government in Jerusalem now. It's theocrats. It's Ben-Gavir. It's the kind of guys who don't believe in anything but a greater Israel,

and that is anathema to a lot of people, even in the Jewish community who understand what that means. So basically it's a liability to the United States, not an asset. We spoke a few minutes ago about how long Israel could continue its onslaught without the United States. I think you'll agree with me. It's purposely massacring civilians. It's starving the population. It's talking about, its leaders talk about the Palestinians in the most revolting ways. They should be buried alive. They're subhuman.

We should turn their capital city into a soccer field. It engages in the public humiliation by stripping down the underwear of its male citizens, which it falsely claimed were captured soldiers. Is the United States complicit in all this, Colonel? Absolutely. And by the way, I don't think that was a slip of your tongue. You actually said what probably one of them said, but Jerusalem is the capital of the state of Palestine.

So Israelis are self-practicing self-immolation there. This is, as I said, this is just insanity. The only thing we need to be doing right now is clamping down on this government so hard that it is forced to abdicate, as it were. And I don't care if it's still Likud that's in charge, but it needs to be some different Likudniks and it needs to be some Likudniks who have been given a heavy, heavy lecture by America. And that lecture needs to include, you are going to jeopardize the security of your state

if you don't stop what you're doing and come back to some sort of reasonable process towards a two-state solution. You've proved you can process towards a two-state solution. You've proved you can't have a one-state solution. I loved it when Netanyahu came out and tried to explain in English, of course, because he's always speaking to an English audience, really. He tried to explain how the Arab citizens in Israel are treated well. They're not.

They're fourth-class citizens at best. Ask Gideon Levy from Haaretz about that. Ask any of them about that. If they told you the truth, they'd tell you they're third, fourth-class citizens. So I think a single-state solution that's a democracy that lets Arabs live within its borders and have equal rights to Jews living within its borders is preposterous. I don't think they're capable of that. So it needs to be a two-state solution. Even if we have to interpose, as in Korea, as in Cyprus, a military force between the two states for 75 years to keep them apart. That's the only thing that's going to bring a

reasonable amount of peace to this region. Does it trouble you that the nature of the weapons that we are giving Israel, the so-called dumb bombs, which don't have any kind of a device on them that aim them, that about 49 to 50% of the bombs that they have dropped. Colonel, some of them as big as 2,000 pounds. You know better than I, probably better than anybody listening now, the type of damage that can do. Why do we have these things? Why are we selling such things? Why are we facilitating their indiscriminate slaughter? Money. Money.

It's wonderful for our manufacturers when they can get rid of these essentially munitions we would never use. Even our dumb bombs, 250 pound Mark 72s or 500 pound bombs or whatever they might be. We put JDAMs on them. We put these joint munitions kits, we call them, on the bomb that makes it suddenly a smart bomb right then you can hit your target with about 95 96 percent uh a probability of about a 10 meter cep which means uh you know you're going to hit the target in other words that's not what they're doing they're using these dumb bombs and they're bombing indiscriminately and they're killing civilians i imagine we're not giving it to them not because lockheed martin and others that make them wouldn't sal we're not giving it to them, not because Lockheed Martin and others that make them wouldn't salivate at giving them to them,

it's because we'd have to pay for them, and they're very expensive. We're giving them to the Saudis right now to bomb the Houthis, but look at that. The Saudis don't even know how, their pilots pickle those things, fire them at altitude, so they won't be in danger themselves from their

extended range F-15s, then what does that do? Well, it goes to the extent of its range, which isn't that far really, even ER. And what happens is it becomes a dumb bomb. And so in the war with the Houthis, you get bombs dropping on school buses with 48 children in them, for example. Here's Jake Sullivan, number six, Chris, attempting to justify the use of dumb bombs. It's a great question from the reporter. You tell me if in your opinion, Colonel, his answer makes any sense. Almost half of the 30,000 bombs that have been dropped on Gaza have been so-called dumb bombs, imprecise. If there was a real intent to protect civilians, wouldn't they be using much more precise, smaller munitions? When it comes to the issue of the bombs, the type of bombs that Israel is using,

what I would say is that different types of munitions require different types of military operations, meaning the method by which bombs are delivered that don't have the tail kits on them is different in terms of how the planes fly, in terms of how the targets are selected. Israel selects targets and tries to distinguish between targets that hit Hamas and those that might take the lives of innocent civilians. At the end of the day, what we have consistently said is that Israel has the intent to make sure that it is drawing those distinctions clearly and in a sustainable way. And we want to see the results match up to that. That's a conversation that I had in full with them today and yesterday as well. And we'll continue to do that, including on the type of munitions they use and when they use a certain type of munitions, how those are delivered to ensure that from the United States' perspective, they are fulfilling their obligations, their responsibilities as a state to international humanitarian law.

I think that was an absurd response. Jake ought to stick to things that he knows something about. That was an absurd response. And if anything, I take from that response that, OK, if that's true, and some 20,000 civilians, half of whom are children, have been killed, are you saying the Israelis are making the distinction so that they drop the more accurate bombs on civilians and houses and hotels and hospitals and other places? Is that what you're saying?

Because they sure are killing a whole hell of a lot of civilians. I just listened to Philippe Lazzarini, the head of UNRWA, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency. It's like I was listening to Sergio Vieira de Mayo when he was killed by al-Qaeda in Iraq, a tragic event that set our operations in Iraq back at least a year and poisoned them really for the rest of the time we were there. That's what's happening with his people.

They're getting killed. Hundred or so have been killed. These are workers of the United Nations. Then you look at the journalists who've been killed. You look at the other people who are in Gaza to try and help, either rendering humanitarian assistance or report on the conflict or whatever. And the number of them that have been killed in the short time the war has been waged is just astronomical. So Jake, if what you say is true, they have reversed the logic on you. Chris, play the, do we have it, the three Arab

foreign ministers responding to the veto by the United States in the Security Council of a request for a ceasefire. One of them, Colonel, says a week ago exactly what you just said. We believe there is a moral obligation toward the international community to stop the killing of the civilian, Palestinian civilians civilians and it's the first time at least in my lifetime that have seen that calling for a ceasefire became a controversial issue I'm not sure how deep is the understanding here of what's happening on the ground in Gaza I I mean, this war has broken every record. Largest number of journalists killed, largest number of hospitals destroyed, largest number of medics killed,

largest number of UN employees killed. Our message has been very clear. There needs to be an immediate ceasefire. There needs to be a cessation of hostilities. And we need to have immediate access for humanitarian aid. It is not acceptable. Just to be fair, if you'll hold your fire for a minute, Colonel, Chris Play, the American deputy ambassador, justifying, purporting to justify his exercise of the American veto at the Security Council. Although the United States strongly supports a durable peace in which both Israelis and Palestinians can live in peace and security, we do not support this resolution's call for an unsustainable ceasefire that will only

plant the seeds for the next war. Thoughts, Colonel, on all of that? Well, those latter remarks remind me of someone saying, I've just given you all the information. Saddam Hussein does have weapons of mass destruction. We can't tolerate his possession of weapons of mass destruction, not in a post 9-11 era.

That's what that reminded me of. Except I know my boss was Hornswoggle by George Tenet, John McLaughlin, and a host of other intelligence professionals who knew better. That gentleman is not Hornswoggle as far as I know. So I don't know how he can sit there and do that and shave in the morning and go to bed at night. And as far as the ministers of their Arab countries, foreign minister of their Arab countries are concerned, they're absolutely right. I know they have different motivations for saying what they're saying.

I know that Jordan's foreign minister is an astute man. And I know that he is, as much as anyone in this whole business, is very concerned for the security of his own state and very concerned for the security, ultimately, of the Palestinians. And to have him say the things that he the security, ultimately, of the Palestinians. And to have him say the things that he says, Jordan is one of the best friends. Jordan is a strategic asset for the United States in the Levant, unlike Israel. To have him say these things is powerful. Colonel, who controls the border between Gaza and Egypt? I mean, can the Gazans leave? Or who controls all the borders? Can they flee? Or is it an open-air concentration camp, as a retired Israeli general called it?

Can they not physically leave? Right now, as I understand it, it is an open place for genocide to occur. It's not just a concentration camp. It's like they're in the ghettos of Warsaw with the Germans able to bomb them mercilessly and doing so day in and day out because that's the situation they've got. El-Sisi will not let them into Egypt. He said he doesn't even want them in the Sinai in the desert. And Jordan does not want them from the West Bank or from Gaza coming into Jordan. Jordan already has enough Palestinians.

Thank you very much. It can hardly handle the population it already has. It outnumbers the native Jordanians. So they're caught between a rock and a hard place. And the Israelis know it. While they're in that rock and a hard place, the Israelis are bombing the hell out of them. Do you think that the unbridled, I'm going to call it unbridled because the stuff that the president and Jake Sullivan have been saying is meaningless, doesn't seem to affect

the Netanyahu government. The unbridled American support for Israel isolates the United States on the international scene in a way that is detrimental to the United States. Yes, which is one reason why I keep saying there is strategic liability. There are 4 billion people in the world now, and I would say it's moving towards 5 billion. That's out of about 8 billion there are who hate our guts and who are intensifying that hatred every day. Ali Soufan at the Soufan Project, who you may remember, was the Lebanese-American who did more to defeat al-Qaeda than any other single individual American.

A great FBI agent. I've interviewed him many times. a great FBI agent, a great human being. Yeah. He tells us how many Al-Qaeda there are now, as opposed to how many there were pre-911. All we've done with the so-called global war on terror is increase the recruits to Al-Qaeda's ranks. It's just a matter of time until they put another plan together and attack us. And as far as other terrorist organizations go, from Jemais Lamia to Lashkar-e-Taiba, you name the organization, we're flooding their ranks with recruits because they hate our guts now. I was with a Canadian journalist this morning who showed me a video of a 16, 17-year-old Hamas young man who had just emerged, bloody, blood all over his

face from the rubble of the building where his brothers and sisters had been killed and his mother and father and he in arabic was shouting netanyahu you are terrorists we will kill you i will live till i kill you i will be a terrorist i will kill you netanyahu that's what we. Well, Colonel, we're going to put up on the screen the roll call vote in the United Nations. So this is the General Assembly, 153 in favor of the resolution, calling for a ceasefire, a simple ceasefire. 10 against. I mean, how important are these countries that voted against? Micronesia, Guatemala, Liberia, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, of course, Israel and the United States. 23 abstentions, including Great Britain. I guess

that's an indication of how isolated we are, Colonel. It is. It is. And you go back to torture and a president authorizing torture, my president, George W. Bush. You go back to the fact we have 32 countries in the world, some of them mercilessly so, like Venezuela. And you understand why the world is growing very sick of us, very tired of us, very fatigued by our stupidity, our lack of leadership, and our crass approach to the world, our brutal approach to the world. When that happens, history is pretty clear. The world bands together to rid itself of the empire, of the hegemon, whether it's the Romans or the British, it will get rid of us. That's what we're looking at right now. We're looking at the whole world virtually thinking that we are the worst thing in their lives.

Dark days, Colonel. I wish you a Merry Christmas. I hope I see you again before Christmas. I hope you can come back next week. I have found this a fascinating, fascinating, stimulating, and educating conversation. And I can tell from the comments of our good folks that are watching you that many of them feel the same way. Thank you, Carl. Thank you. And Merry Christmas to all your crew and happy Hanukkah and all the rest. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Back at you. Still coming up, my dear friends, four o'clock, everybody's favorite,

the intelligence community round table with Larry Johnson and Ray McGovern. Five o'clock, just you and me. Ask the judge. Judge Napolitano for judging freedom. Thanks for watching!