Judging Freedom - COL. Lawrence Wilkerson : The Consequences of Attempted Regime Change

Episode Date: December 4, 2025

COL. Lawrence Wilkerson : The Consequences of Attempted RegimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Discover why there's more to imagine when you listen at audible.com slash best of the year. Hi, everyone, Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is December 4th, 2025. Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson is our guest. Colonel Larry, always a pleasure. my dear friend, thank you for accommodating my schedule, particularly as we approach the holiday season. I want to talk to you about the likely consequences and the historical consequences of attempted regime change, something with which you have personal familiarity from your time in the Defense Department and the State Department.

But before we get there, I'd like your thoughts on the latest Secretary Hegseth Imbrilio. It can't be legal, can it, for the military knowingly to kill non-combatants? I'm one who said in the Bush administration that it can't be legal to define torture as that which occurs just short of organ failure. But as you well know, my argument didn't hold the day. So it's not very difficult for me, having been experienced in that field at that time, to fast forward to and. even more incompetent president, in my view, and a very difficult to understand from any point

of view of common sense cabinet morphing into going even further. That is to say, I imagine they have something instructed somewhere from justice or whomever that says this is all legal. And I know what it's going to say. It's going to say, these are narco terrorists. Ah, we said these are al-Qaeda. They threaten the United States. Therefore, we're going to war with them. We're going to wage a global war on terror. Now we're waging a global war on narco

terrorists. The same office in the Justice Department that told George W. Bush he could torture told Barack Obama he could murder Americans in Yemen, including a

child. A kid was 16. and the same office has told Pam Bondi, the Attorney General and President Trump and Secretary Hegeseth that they can kill these people on the boats. But is there not, we're going to have a rather dramatic clip in a minute from Congressman Jim Hines, who just emerged from the secret, I wish these meetings were in public, the secret. meeting with General Kane and Admiral Bradley, and in Congressman Hines' case, the House Intelligence Committee. But before we get to that, Congressman Hines is going to say he saw people that were severely

injured and clinging for life to the remnants of the boat. Is there not, under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, a duty to rescue the shipwrecked and the injured, even if you have caused their shipwreck and their injury? Certainly is. Certainly is. And there's a restriction on shooting people who are walking towards you with their hands in the air. There's a restriction on shooting a pilot who's just bailed out and under his parachute. You know that guy's going back and get in another aircraft and fight you again.

But when he comes up in that regime, you are legal to fighting back. You are not legal. You are a war criminal. you shoot him under that canopy. I mean, that's essentially what they did. What should become of Secretary Hegseth and Admiral Bradley and anybody else in the chain of command that caused these murders? They should be held accountable.

They should go before the tribunal of justice, if you will, whatever that might be, and they should be held accountable. But not for one nanosecond do I believe that my military is capable of holding people. accountable, let alone my government. So where's it coming from? Here is the Colonel McGregor argue that they should be immediately suspended during these investigations. But unless there's a new Secretary of Defense, who's going to investigate and prosecute Admiral Bradley and his team? And unless there's a truly independent and dedicated to the law, Attorney General, who's going to prosecute the Secretary of Defense?

Bingo. And he's been very careful and very surgical and methodical about eliminating the JAG officers at the highest levels, whom I'm sure he had studied and thought might be an obstacle to action like he's just perpetrated. And so there's very few people around in the immediate vicinity anyway who have the Cajonis or the skill or the position to challenge him. We're going to play that clip now of Congressman Hines of Connecticut addressing the press after having just heard General Kane and Admiral Bradley. Chris? Admiral Bradley has a storied career and he has my respect and he should have the respect of all of us. But what I saw in that room was one of the most troubling things I've seen in my time in public service.

you have two individuals in clear distress without any means of locomotion with a destroyed vessel were killed by the United States can you wait can you tell us a little bit more about about exactly what was so troubling

what were some of the things that come up with it under the DOD manual for abiding by the laws of armed conflict. The specific example given of an impermissible action is attacking a shipwreck. Any American who sees the video that I saw will see the United States military attacking shipwrecked sailors. Bad guys. Bad guys. But attacking shipwrecked sailors. Now there's a whole set of contextual items that the Admiral explained. Yes, they were carrying drugs. They were not in the position to continue their mission in any way.

We don't, we don't, people will someday see this video and they will see that that video shows, if you don't have the broader context, an attack on shift wreck sailors. The last thing I'm gonna say, the last thing I'm gonna say is that the Admiral confirmed that there had not been a kill them all order and that there was not an order to

grant no court. So does it exonerate accept? Does it exonerated? That's all I go. Do you think the video should be released publicly? I do. Well, you see clearly

in this, I don't know Congressman Heinz, but you see him clearly in distress at what he observed, and I can't imagine any context justifying the slaughter of innocence.

This is an egregious act. There's no question. about it. I wouldn't agree that it was the slaughter of innocence if he characterized it correctly, and I have no way of proving that or disproving it. I mean legally innocent. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're right. You're absolutely right. But this is, let's back up for a moment and examine what we're doing. At least George W. Bush and Richard Cheney had smoldering buildings and a couple of thousand

plus Americans did and a Pentagon smoldering and so forth to get. their rage up to do things that are outside the law of armed warfare. Donald Trump has nothing but his specious claims that narco traffickers, and I use his term, are a threat to the national security of the United States, and he focuses on Venezuela as a perpetrator thereof. This is pure nonsense. Laura Lumer dreamed up, massad fabricated, nonsense. They are about as much a threat to the national security of the United States as that red ant crawling across my window out there. And yet we're doing these things. We don't even have the excuse George W. Bush and Richard Cheney had.

Dead Americans all over the place. Flaming buildings, billions of dollars of damage to the United States and to its economic system. They have nothing but Trump's word. This is terrible. To make matters even worse, Colonel. Trump's own drug enforcement administration and the United Nations Office on Narcotics, just go to their public postings, post no connection between Venezuela and the distribution of drugs to the United States. But they do post it during the presidency of the former president of Honduras.

Yes, who is just let off. He was convicted of orchestrating the distribution. You've got to do the math of 400 tons. That's 400 times 2,000. That's the number of pounds of cocaine. And this guy is Scott Free after a jury convicted him. Oh, because he was prosecuted by the Biden, DOJ. This is absurd.

And anyone who knows the real flow of drugs pattern into the United States knows that the most dangerous drug is fentanyl. It's made in chemistry labs. It's not grown or anything. And the other one is cocaine. And none of them come from Venezuela except by routing, perhaps. But they don't come originally from there. So what are we doing?

And let me tell you something else. When we started the drug war, I told Colin Powell, why are we putting the military into a war we cannot possibly win? And he said, what do you mean? I said, we cannot possibly win this war. The best we can do is a trip to 10, 11, 12%, raise the price on the street a little bit. And that won't do it because you're not going after the center of gravity of the drug war, which is the people taking the drugs. All you're going to do is corrupt Mexico. You're going to make the Caribbean and the Pacific side a danger zone for lots of people. You're going to reduce, but we have never judged, never in the whole history. history of this stupid drug war reduced the rate by more than 10, 11%. We thought that was achieving something because it did push the price up a little bit. Think about what we're doing now in the name of that kind of strategy. It's absurd. What are the likely consequences of a failed effort at regime change? And Trump already has one from when they tried to install Juan Guaido in the first

Trump administration of a failed effort at regime change or even a successful effort at regime change, if they stole this lady that works for the Mossad, Mrs. Machado, one of the likely consequences. Well, the worst thing, Judge, is what's happening with regard to what I've been talking about all along, and John Meersheimer now has begun to lecture on as if he's at the University of Chicago on. And I praise John for it. We are trying to arrest this inevitable shift of power from our hemisphere towards China. We're trying desperately to do that. Well, Putin's going to pay us back in our own coin.

Indeed is already paying us back in our own coin. You don't understand my proposition that your troops in eastern Ukraine are a threat to my near abroad. I'm going to put things in your region, your near abroad, that are going to be far greater threat to you. Take that. And that's what he's doing now. Slowly but surely he's doing that.

He started off with Admiral Gorskov in a nuclear-powered submarine in Cuba in 2024. Now he's moving on to other assets coming into the region, including this incredible machine he's got called Poseidon, which is a submarine that is so big it can carry along with it a UUV, an underwater vehicle like RPVs in the air, and it carries within a nuclear bomb, if you will, that actually goes off in a strategic location and produces a radioactive tsunami. And think about Norfolk, think about Pascagoula and Ingalls Shipyard in the Gulf, and think about San Diego.

I mean, Putin is playing our game now against us. Is the Mossad involved in any way or likely to be involved in any way in the efforts to, to destabilize the government of Nicolas Maduro and Venezuela? Absolutely. Been in there since 2016 at a minimum because they want to essentially get their hands on that portion that they can and at a discounted price. That's the way Israel works, that oil outside Russia, and we don't know the proven reserves there, I suspect there are more than 300 billion barrels, but it's the largest

proven reserve in the world. And it's the last one in the Western Hemisphere that we know of that's proven. And we have experienced there with a number of the majors. So we won't back in. And Israel wants back in too. And they slide in under us, around us, over us, whatever. They get their oil through discounted prices because of the trickery they use, the schemes they use to get that oil.

They did it out of Syria. They're doing it out of Chehon. They're doing it out of the northern part of Iraq to the consternation of Baghdad. That's how they get their cheap discounted oil. What will happen if we invade Venezuela, land, air, sea? Disaster. I think Vietnam, if you will. I mean, it won't be any better, and it'll probably be worse.

It's really a more, I think probably, I think this is all a bluff. I think it's all a bluff. And I think Maduro is showing that. that the bluff is working. I'm hearing that the telephone calls are significant, and I'm hearing that he's already offered almost all of the multinationals that want back in that know Venezuela, know that kind of oil,

and can send it to Charles Koch's refineries in Texas and Oklahoma. They all agree that that would be the best possible situation. So now all they've got to do is figure out how to back off the threat, remove the military forces, and then proclaim total victory. because that's what I think is happening behind the scenes. There's 18,000 soldiers, I believe, Army and Marines in Puerto Rico.

There's 2,000 Marines on the ships off of Venezuela. There's the Gerald Ford and the battle group that surrounds and protects it. And think about the Gerald Ford sitting there and the missiles that Russia might have provided Maduro. I think he would be crazy to do this because we are still an elephant and we could we can still smash a lot of grass in our dying throws. But he could sink forward. Ford is sinkable, absolutely totally sinkable. And it's sinkable by a single or two or three probably of these missiles that Russia has

that move at four to five times the speed of sound, cannot be shot down by anyone and will be targeted and get through every defense that Ford has on the surface, under the surface, and in the air. What is it costing? What money did Trump and Hegseth spend to bring all of that hardware and all of the human assets there? About a billion a day now. Wow. I know that John Mearsheimer, who's on this show after you, is going to say he believes it's a bluff. Do you believe it's a bluff? I do because I'm hearing, and I think it's legitimate, that Maduro has almost caved on everything that we've asked him to do.

Except leave. Except leave. Ultimately, it would be beneficial for him in the context of what you just said. It would mean he wouldn't have to leave because then Venezuela would begin to recover somewhat. And that would be a positive for him and he might stay in office for even longer. And then he would be more or less a Noriega type. Ready for them to kidnap him at will like they did. If he violates the agreement, yeah.

Noriega, yeah. Yeah. Here he is. This is the President Maduro on his phone with a translator, on his phone call with President Trump. This is yesterday. I received, I had a call and spoke with the President of the United States, Donald Trump. I can say that the conversation was conducted in a respectful tone. In fact, I can say it was cordial. between the President of the United States and the President of Venezuela. I'll go even further than that,

if that significant call truly means that concrete steps are actively being taken. Toward fostering a truly respectful and meaningful dialogue from one state to another, and indeed from one country to another, then such a constructive dialogue is most certainly welcome and genuine diplomacy is equally welcome and highly encouraged. because we will always seek peace

welcome to Europe welcome to the diplomats welcome to the PICs PICS yes never never in my life would the Americans have known in advance that he was going to make such a conciliatory and almost

laudatory statement that was probably the final demand of him and he didn't have any problem doing it because he was probably describing the diplomatic exchange accurately. And let me tell you, I will guarantee you that Israel has a codicel to that diplomatic exchange. Wow. Do we have diplomatic relations with Venezuela? Is there an American ambassador in Venezuela in Caracas? I don't, you know, I haven't checked in the last month or so. I'm not sure there is or isn't. that would have been one of the things we probably would have done to signal our seriousness

is withdraw the diplomatic country team right right what do we do about a president that kills innocence colonel wilkerson well if i had my day uh and i were lord of the world i'd say we prosecute him as a war criminal before the icc it ain't going to happen no no that's that's not likely to happen. It is dangerous, though. I mean, George W. is still the... Yes, he was still a big of an indictment and an arrest warrant in Europe. Maybe he has no interest in going. Hexeth could be tried in the countries from which his victims came. Should he ever find himself there? He could also be tried in the Hague, even though he's not likely to go there voluntarily and has not been charged there has to be justice no there doesn't have to be as lucidity

said carefully in the mouth of the athenian general we have the power and we can do it and we will and that's what's happening now uh colonel when the power ebbs and it is ebbing it's ebbing dramatically now I never thought it would go as fast as it's going, but it is. There's going to come a moment in there where we're going to be vulnerable, significantly vulnerable to international justice. And it's going to be interesting to see how we deal with that moment. Do we tuck it in, go behind our borders and say, everybody stay away or we'll kill you, we'll use nuclear weapons on you?

Or do we understand that our time in the sun has somewhat dimmed and start to cooperate with these. other powers in the world that are far more powerful than us and coming more powerful every day. That's a huge question. How we handle the off-ramp from empire. Let me ask you what I asked your colleague, Colonel Douglas McGregor, can a country be an empire and a debtor at the same time for very long? Quite a few have tried, and none have have succeeded. Wow. I've got to play this clip. Chris just reminded me of what President Trump says, Secretary Heggseth told him about the killing of the two people that Congressman

Heinz was just so upset about when he described. Chris cut number one. And Pete said he did not want them. He didn't even know what people were talking about. So we're looking look into it, but no, I wouldn't have wanted that, not the second strike. The first strike was very legal, it was mine, and if there were two people around, but Pete said that didn't happen. He said it didn't happen, so he's given a number of versions. I'll show you the versions that he's given. Chris, play the montage that begins with Pete in 2016. There are some guys at Leavenworth who made really bad choices on the battlefield, and I do think there have to be consequences for abject war crimes. If you're doing something that is just completely unlawful

and ruthless, then there is a consequence for that. That's why the military said it won't follow unlawful orders from their commander-in-chief. There's a standard. There's an ethos. There's a belief that we are above what so many things that our enemies or others would do. I watched it live. We knew exactly who was in that boat. We knew exactly what they were doing, and we knew exactly who they represented. I watched that first strike lot. As you can imagine, at the Department of War, we got a lot of things to do. So I didn't stick around for the hour and two hours, whatever, where all the sensitive site exploitation digitally occurs. So I moved on to my next meeting. I did not personally see survivors, but I stand because the thing was on fire.

It was exploded and fire or smoke. You can't see anything. You got digital. This is called the fog of war. General or sorry, Colonel McGregor calls at the fog of fear. And Admiral Bradley apparently told Congressman Hines, he saw the survivors he killed. I think that's true. He went in those clips that you just played from being a reasonably ethical and accurate interpreter of American policy with regard to war to being a killer. Enough said. Colonel, thank you very much. Thanks for your candor. You bring it. level of understanding barely rivaled because of all your years in the defense department and

the state department and you couple that with intellectual honesty and personal courage and uncle larry candor and i thank you very much for it my dear friend i wish it made a difference well who knows who knows who's watching i know somebody in in the west wing watches because we periodically can sense that from comments that are made i don't know if this gets It's a knock at my door, so you have to be eye. You have a right to remain silent. All the best, Colonel. We'll see you next week. Thank you. Take care.

Sure. Coming up, I hope none of you was offended by a little bit of a sense of humor. It's a way to cope with these disastrous, horrific things that we talk about. Coming up at 3 o'clock on all of this, Professor John Mearsheimer at 4 o'clock with his unique view. you, Pepe Escobar, Judge Napolitano for judging freedom. Thank you.