Judging Freedom - Cold War Getting Hotter? w/Scott Horton Antiwar.com

Episode Date: September 28, 2023

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Thank you. Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Thursday, September 28th, 2023. Scott Horton joins us now. Scott, always a pleasure. Welcome back to the show. There's a lot to talk about. Do we know more now about the CIA and Navy SEALs destroying the Nord Stream pipeline than we did a year or so ago. Is there more evidence that this was planned and plotted and executed at the direct orders of the president of the United States and even boasted about it publicly and now tries to deny it? Well, I don't know about direct evidence, you know, connecting to Biden, but we got pretty good reporting, reliable reporting like that from the likes of Seymour Hersh. I would note that James Bamford, who is also very well respected by me, a journalist who wrote three great books on the National Security Agency. He doesn't have sources. He uses open source materials. Right. Well respected by me and by probably almost everybody watching us now. Go ahead. Yeah, he's a great guy. And he did a piece in The Nation where he put together, you know, deduced, I guess, a different story, which was he thought that Ukrainians did it with unmanned submarines, with drones. There are a couple of other theories, of course, floating around. I like Seymour Hersh. I've interviewed him many times, and he sure is certain about his source on this one. And I would note that his piece today is very important and take it for what it's worth, but he's saying is that what this is really about and as revealed in the timing that what this is really about is keeping germany from getting along with russia

and right and breaking away from america's policy and i think you could even argue that that would be one of the major motives for the amer Americans in helping to instigate the war or at least not really doing anything to stop it because they had convinced the Germans to commit to the position that they won't stop the North Street pipeline, but they will stop it if Russia invades Ukraine. But the thing is, they could change their mind about that in the cold wintertime. And so Hearst says that what Biden was doing was preempting that possibility that the new German government would flip-flop on the war. And so I think, you know, the heart is part of the heart of American grand strategy is preventing a German-Russian alliance. Gary, do we have the clip of President Biden predicting or boasting

about the Nord Stream pipeline? Run that and catch the data on this, Scott. If Russia invades, that means tanks or troops crossing the border of Ukraine again, then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it. How will you do that exactly since the project and control of the project is within Germany's control? We will, I promise you, we'll be able to do it. Now, note the date, February 22nd, 2022.

So that's a week after the invasion began. It wasn't full-fledged at that point. Right, but now Hearst says they were ready, though. They could have done it then. Well, what the clip does not show, Scott, is who was standing next to President Biden at the time. You know who that was. Chancellor Schulz of Germany was standing next to him like a mannequin, like a child, like a vassal, like a poodle, agreeing to what the president was saying. So the president of the United States says, we'll take care of Nord Stream Pipeline. The Nord Stream Pipeline,

six months later, is destroyed. And the federal government wants us to believe it was two guys in a sailboat. Yeah. Well, you know, I really don't know. Hirsch, you know, on his sub stack has written about, of course, they just put together this team and disbanded it. All the plans and authorizations were on pieces of paper that no longer exist. And that's why they call it a covert op. It's a very believable tale the way he tells it. But, you know, the official story, Your Honor, by the way, in The Washington Post is that the Ukrainians did it and the cia knew they were going to do it for months and then sat back and let them do it well so that's their evolution of the story so that's

not much different quite frankly correct correct uh cy uh hirsch uh purports to interview and i say purports hesitantly because he is the best investigative journalist in America, maybe in the world, and has been for generations. He claims to have interviewed Navy SEALs and CIA, both of whom train next to each other, each of whom trains next to each other near Pensacola, Florida, interviewed people who planned and plotted, interviewed people who executed. Everything was done until Joe Biden gave the go ahead, which was the moral equivalent of pulling a trigger. But the bombs had been planted.

The timers were in there. All they had to do mild winter last winter. And the loss of natural gas was just financial. It raised the price of the gas they had and prevented them from selling it to other northern European countries. The prediction to the Senate, just a prediction, this winter is much colder, much more of a need for natural gas. We'll see how pliant Chancellor Scholz is. We'll see if he's even Chancellor Scholz by the end of the winter. But you talk about international law.

We attack the property of a sovereign. You talk about treaties. We attack the property of a sovereign. You talk about treaties. We attack the property of another member of NATO. You talk about the U.S. Constitution. We attack the sovereign nation without a declaration of war. You talk about morality. We destroyed the assets of public and private entities for our own political gain and lied about it. I don't know how much more damning we can get. Yeah. Well,

again, all this is in the name of what they call the rules based liberal world. Right, right, right, right. It just means as H.W. Bush said back in 1990,

what we say goes, that's the rules-based order. America does whatever they want and everybody else can bow down. great Alistair Crook, a big brain time with him, wonderful, wonderful, brilliant human being. And we were talking about the West wanting to use Ukraine as a whipping boy to weaken Russia for generations and now salivating that they had their opportunity. And in a year and a half of this war, with the sanctions, with some Russian losses, let's face it, with the Russian military focused on Ukraine, President Putin is stronger and the Russian economy is stronger. So whatever these neocons were trying to do, they succeeded in killing a lot of Ukraine boys and some Russian boys, but they didn't lay a glove on the strength or solidarity or stability of the Russian state. You know, I'm so glad that you brought that up. Bill Kristol, still the leader of the neocons for whatever reason, has just put out this whole thing um you know trying to build up

republican support for this policy and the premise of the whole thing is we have weakened russian military strength by half but where's the evidence for that and in fact it was uh general something or other i'm sorry i forgot italian last name uh testified just a few months ago that the Russian military has increased in size by half or two thirds or something. I forget his name before it might be Calvino or Calvini. Forgive me. I should remember a name like that. Bald head guy,

very muscular. He's the commander in chief of American. He's the commander in chief of American forces of all forces, all American forces, even non-army in in europe right and and he said look the russian army's done nothing but grow and the new york times just ran a thing what two weeks ago now that said that the russians have ramped up their military production including their artillery shells and everything else and so like all neocon talking points, this just has no relationship

to the truth. It just serves their narrative. You know, I had this conversation with Daniel Davis, who's, you know, was a lieutenant colonel in the U.S. Army, fought in Iraq War I, Iraq War II, and then didn't exactly fight in Afghanistan, but was the great whistleblower of the Afghan War of 2012. And we're talking about, look, what this whole thing comes down to, and this is what we've been arguing for a year and a half, what this comes down to, regardless of exactly the timeframe of the thing, is if you believe that time is on Ukraine's side, eventually they're just going to whoop these Russians,

and boy, we've reduced their military by half, and we're on our way to reducing it by the other half and they're not the second strongest army in the world. They're not even the second strongest army in Ukraine and all these kinds of things. Then we ought to keep sending them weapons. I mean, all other things being equal, nevermind, you know,

libertarian non-interventionism, but just like strategically wise in the eyes of Republicans and Democrats, we better keep arming them so they can win this fight. To cut them off would be to betray a friend and leave them high and dry, et cetera, et cetera. But if you recognize that, no, Ukraine is going to lose this war and they're going to lose those provinces, some major proportion of them. And the only question is how long this goes on before they finally cry uncle. And the only question is how many guys lose their legs and lose their lives on both sides,

conscript armies, slave armies on both sides. In the meantime, then this is wrong. We should be pressuring both sides to negotiate. We should be doing everything we can to bring the fighting to an end, and especially because of the danger that the fighting could spread to other countries and become a major conflict between Russia and NATO.

You know, Bill Kristol is the cheerleader for the neocons. Here's another cheerleader for the ne globalists in the audience for the standing ovation they gave her when her official portrait as a direct descendant of Thomas Jefferson in the line of secretaries of state had been unveiled. You know of whom I speak, but here she is. An invasion of Ukraine that instead of driving a stake between us and our allies brought us closer together in order to support the right of the Ukrainian people to defend their liberty and freedom and democracy. People might have doubted that because we had burned so many bridges with our allies and our friends. So reinstating a foreign policy that plays to the best of American values, that puts

our interests and security front and center but does it in a way that actually brings people to us, not pushes them away, would have been thought to be extremely difficult. And indeed it was. In looking across the globe, defending democracy in Ukraine, expanding NATO, just as an aside, too bad, Vladimir, people are not forced to join NATO. People choose and want to join NATO. People choose and want to join NATO. People do. But the people she's speaking of, of course, are foreign leaders, globalists. They do

what's in their best interest as dictated to them by Washington, D.C. We know that. Putin himself, Scotty, you know this better than anybody that I know, wanted to join NATO. And of course, the powers that be said, no, no, no, you're not. You're not our type. We have a problem with you. All these countries want to join our alliance. She might as well get up there and say, listen, banks like getting bailouts. Right.

They do. Oil companies like subsidies. Yeah, well, that doesn't mean that that's what we should all want, just because that's what they want. Of course they want America to pick up the tab for their defense. But why does that mean it's in America's interest? Of course. And yeah, she's so condescending and so obnoxious. She's right.

Did you notice her hair, Jody? Did you notice her hair? I am told that that's a campaign hairdo. I don't want to cause you sleepless nights, but I'm told by a very prominent female that makes these observations that it's a campaign hairdo. Man, I'll tell you what, and this is a true story. In 2015, I turned off the TV.

I just can't stand that woman's voice. She just drives me up the wall. And I haven't really turned it back on since. I don't even watch The Family Guy anymore or none of that kind of thing. I'm just over it. However, if she runs again, Judge, I'm turning the TV back on and I'm watching every bit of it. Because that would be the most hilarious thing in the whole world to watch her run and lose time. Since we spoke last, there's been a significant fracture in NATO.

The Polish president, while President Zelensky was in the U.N., went to the East River. The U.N. is on the East River in Manhattan and made a clip that went viral around the world saying who would want to defend Ukraine. It's like defending a drowning swimmer whose mania and adrenaline to stay alive is so overpowering it will drown with him the lifeguard sent to save him. Now, that is about as lurid and specific an analogy as you can come up with. What's with the polls? Is it domestic politics or is it a realization that Ukraine is going down and they better get out? Yeah. You know, I don't know exactly what all the different incentives are pressuring the president to say that or if that's what he's always really thought or exactly what.

But this thing is a catastrophe. I mean, to have this kind of fighting in Eastern Europe, it should be that the sovereigns in every single one of those countries, it should be absolutely alarmed that it's come to this and that we're letting it get further instead of doing everything we can to stop it. And look, as John Mearsheimer put it way back in 2014, he said, America is leading Ukraine down the primrose path and they're going to get wrecked. And so that is all the proof that you need right there.

Just the fact that he said that back then is all the proof that you need that. Well, that's true. Look at the result of it. And it's and it proves that none of this had to happen this way. And it therefore could and should be undone as quickly as possible. One of the other things that Joe Biden changed his mind on was attackums, you know, the artillery that will go about 200 miles and they are armed with cluster bombs. Another thing. So we wouldn't send them any weaponry that can reach Russia because that could start a serious problem. We're sending it.

He said we wouldn't send them cluster bombs. We're sending them. We're sending them either because we don't care about morality and international law or because we don't have any standard artillery pieces to send them. We only have the cluster bombed ones. By the way, every country in the world but five has outlawed cluster bombs and two of those five are the United States and Russia. How serious is this? Well, it's huge. Of course, you know, for months and

for a year now, it's been reported, I guess, that America's been supporting covert action and allies have been supporting covert action behind Russian lines, including literally backing neo-Nazi militias and the rest in some of these raids. And then if we're going to have artillery fire, you know, over the line into Russia, into Crimea, then that could represent a severe escalation. And, you know, there was a time, I must say, what, six months ago or so at the end of last year? Well, geez, more than that now, a little bit more than that. I believe at the end of last year, Judge, you had Blinken and Newland contradict each other, right? And Blinken said, ah, geez, well, you know, we're not going to go that far with the hit and cry me all the time because that could cause a real problem. And Newland said, oh, yes, we are, even though supposedly she works for him.

He's the secretary of state and she's the secretary bossing him around, I guess. Somehow I'm not surprised. Kiev recently sent missile attacks on the Russian black fleet and on Sevastopol, and on Crimea. And the Kremlin says this could not have happened without American intelligence involved. Probably, and not probably, I'm sure that's true. It could not have happened without American intelligence involved. So American intelligence is operating behind the lines. American weapons are killing Russian boys. American missiles are aiming at Russia's crown jewel, its naval fleet in the Black Sea. America doesn't care how close we come to World War III as long as your friend Victoria Nuland is in charge. Hey, look, I'm telling you, this comes right down to the crux of the danger of this war, you know spinning out of control into a major power

conflict right here judge is oh refuse to speak in the in the same terms right crimea since 2014 has belonged to russia again really correct it was annexed then they held a uh plebiscite and the all the opinion polls run by our allies like the Germans had said that, yes, it's true that the super majority of the population of Crimea wanted to join Russia and rejoin Russia there. And so they did. nally's point of view judge that ship has sailed crime but but the americans say judge that no by ukraine's definition crimea is still part of ukraine that's just under occupation and we're still going to help them get it back so all right for for the younger folks watching us scott's reference to rand mcnally is to the world-class globe and map maker. And why did he make that reference? Because Crimea has been part of Russia since Catherine the Great, who reigned over Russia before the Declaration of Independence was signed.

So the Ukrainians have all of history and logic and rationality against them and culture, not to say the least of it, when they claim that Crimea is theirs. And of course, President Zelensky, probably for domestic political purposes, he can't possibly mean this. We will not stop fighting until the the russians evacuate crimea right and look it's not going to happen in earth's lifetime the american government though they love to base their policies on these absurdities right like um they call the houthi regime that had seized power in yemen in 2000 late 14. The reason they started the war was because the guys had seized power. But then what do they call them?

The Houthi rebels, the Houthi rebels, like they were putting down an insurrection rather than launching a regime change against a sovereign nation. I want to go to one different topic because I need a clear explanation on this. Azerbaijan and Nagorno-Karabakh. Yes, sir.

What is it? Where is it? And what's happening? I know it's such a problem. So we're talking about the land north of Iran here in the Caucasus, southern, well, I guess, Caspian Basin, south of the Caucasus Mountains, between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea. So in your Rand McNally globe or check your map. So Azerbaijan and Armenia both were part of the Soviet Union.

And when the Soviet Union broke apart and, you know, as kind of sub-districts of the Soviet Empire, Stalin had drawn the borders wherever he felt like. Then when the Soviet Union fell apart in the early 90s, they went to war over those lines. And the Armenians at that time were stronger, and they were able to hold on to a piece of territory that is wholly surrounded by Azerbaijan, called Nagorno-Karabakh. It's sort of like when West Berlin, free Berlin, was wholly surrounded by commie East Germany, right? But it was this enclave inside this other sovereign state. Well, in the meantime, the Azerbaijan regime, which is backed by the United States of America and Britain ever since the coup of 1993 which the british engineered um and which is you know compliant with american you know uh spying nsa spying strategy and

pipeline energy imperialist strategy there in the region they built up their forces and in 2020 they really took it to the armenians there in nag-Karabakh and reduced their force there. And then just in the last couple of months, Judge, they've laid siege to this enclave. And now over the past, essentially over the what this last four or five, six days, they have essentially, according to The New York Times, completely conquered Nagorno-Karabakh. Where is Tony Blinken? Where's Lloyd Austin? Where's Victoria Nuland on this? Great question. So listen, in the New York Times this morning, there's Andrew Higgins is a reporter that I really respect. He's done a lot of great work over the years. And he has, I don't know, a 3000 word thing or two 2500 word giant thing all about this. There is nothing

in there about the State Department condemns the ethnic cleansing of thousands, tens of thousands of people out of this territory. I'm sorry, I forget the number, Judge, if he said it was, I believe he said it was 20,000 people so far who'd been, or 50, who'd been forced to flee on foot. It was tens anyway, forced to flee. And look, the State Department isn't saying anything, Judge, because this is the liberal rules-based world order, which means if you're on America's side, dictatorship and ethnic cleansing and aggressive war, it's all fine. The Saudis, they cut Shiites' heads off just for being Shiites and showing up at a protest. They'll crucify their headless corpse. And that's America's allies. I don't care about that.

They love that. It's helped keep the Shiites in line there, of course. Same thing here. The Armenians are in the way. And every Armenian in Los Angeles and all of their lobbying power inside the Democratic Party can't do a thing about it either. Wow.

Scott Orton, you're great. Thank you for all these explanations. Thank you for your clear, compelling peace and freedom laden understanding of the forces that shape our world. I hope you come back again soon. Thank you very much, Judge. Appreciate that. All the best. Thank you so much. All right, my dear friends, thank you very much for judging freedom. I'm just looking up tomorrow so I have the times right. Yes, at 2 o'clock tomorrow afternoon, Friday afternoon, our Intelligence Roundtable, which has become a fan favorite. That's Larry Johnson, Ray McGovern, and yours truly. And at 3 o'clock, ask the judge.

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