Judging Freedom - Dennis Kucinich : U.S. Divided by partisanship, by special interest groups and by war.

Episode Date: April 3, 2024

Dennis Kucinich : U.S. Divided by partisanship, by special interest groups and by war.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Thank you. Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Tuesday, April 2nd, 2024. My guest is a longtime friend and I want to say collaborator and colleague of mine, Congressman Dennis Kucinich. Congressman Kucinich has a long and storied career of public service, mainly in the Democratic Party, but in his last years in Congress, eschewed by the Republicans and Democrats and pretty much of an independent, along with his colleague and our friend, Ron Paul. But Congressman Kucinich, it's a pleasure to have you here. And I appreciate the time you're giving us. I know you're running as an independent for Congress again from your home state of Ohio. But before we get into your campaign, you were in the Congress for 18 years. What's wrong with Congress today? Well, you know, in the time that I've spent in Congress, what I've seen is an increasing polarization.

But today, the situation is far beyond even what I experienced personally. And that is that the two parties are essentially at loggerheads on everything. And the interests of Americans are being swept aside in this partisan polarization. And one of the reasons why I'm running as an independent, I say it's time to put our country above the parties and to come in tune with what our first president, George Washington, warned about. He warned us about factions. He warned us about parties. He warned about usurping the higher interest of then a new nation. And now, hundreds of years later, we're finding that he was a prophet, not only our founder, and that we are now in a position where America is deadlocked between the two parties

and the people of the United States are not being served. And what I hope to do, Judge, is to use my knowledge of government and my ability to work with people across the political spectrum to find our commonalities, to help set a tone that reminds people why we're there, that you cannot put party above country. We must put the country's interest above parties. Congressman Kucinich has money corrupted Congress. I don't mean bribes in people's pockets, but I mean the military-industrial complex, the donor class, APEC, the Israeli lobby, have those things become so institutionalized that members of both parties automatically snap to and do what the donors want,

irrespective of the constitution, irrespective of war and peace, irrespective of humanity, and even irrespective of war and peace, irrespective of humanity, and even irrespective of what their constituents want? No question about it. Short answer is yes. What's happened is that with changes in campaign finance, beginning with the Democrats essentially accepting the same corporate money that was fueling the Republican Party. This was 40 years and more ago. And the Supreme Court decisions in Buckley v. Vallejo and Citizens United set the stage for money to just be poured into these campaigns. And as a result, members of Congress become hamstrung. You know, when people first get elected, they go to their respective party

offices and they're given a book, it's about this thick, and that book contains a list of all the political action committees. And so when members come to Washington to begin a week in Congress, the first place they stop is their party headquarters, where they begin to dial for dollars. Now, it's ever true that he who pays the piper calls the tune. And interest groups, which are often anathema to the general interest of the American people, particularly those in the military-industrial complex, are influencing members of Congress. And members are very sensitive to any vote that might impair their ability to get reelected, and they're very sensitive to raising money so they can stay in office once they get there. Is this system corrupted? Absolutely, 100 percent. And are there good people who are influenced adversely by it? Of course.

How do you beat it? The only way you can beat it that I see is people who are in Congress have to appeal to the general public in their district and beyond for help. The internet fundraising has created great opportunities to help free members of Congress from the yoke of these interest groups. That's one of the reasons why, you know, in my campaign, we're getting support from all over at Kucinich.com, because I will not get tied to interest groups that are adverse to this country's well-being. And that's exactly what's happened with some of the groups that you cited. When did the Democrats become so pro-war? I mean, let's just look at Ukraine to start with. If there were a vote in the House of Representatives today on

this $61 billion that the president wants to send to Ukraine, extending a useless, fruitless, catastrophic war that he could have avoided if he hadn't interfered with the negotiations in Turkey two years ago. The vote would probably be 150 Republicans against and all the Democrats in favor. What motivates them to want to do this? Well, you know, first of all, the tendency inside Congress is to support the president of your party, notwithstanding what he stands for. And I saw that. In addition to that, the fear that comes from being inside a caucus and then being shunned by other members for not going along with what leadership wants, there's very few people who want to buck the consensus that builds. With respect to Ukraine, the district I'm running and the district I served in Congress is a district that has a Ukrainian population that stands

very strong for freedom, that loves the mother country, that wants to see Ukraine free. And what's happened in the U.S. State Department, the U.S. government basically engineered a coup in Ukraine and used that to drag Ukraine into a conflict in Donetsk and Luhansk and Donbass, and ignited this war, which, you know, Russia has been horrible in the way that they have come in and attacked. There's been 600,000 of the people or the flower of Ukraine who have been killed. This thing is heartbreaking. But we cannot ignore the role that the U.S. has played in helping to impel it. And we cannot ignore the fact that, as you point out, there was a chance to resolve this two years ago. We have to stop this violence. We have to

try to find a way to repair Ukraine, and you can't do it as long as there's a war going on. And with this idea that somehow the US and NATO are going to make it possible for the Ukrainians to defeat the Russian military. I mean, there are people who want that to happen. I understand that. But at this point, that is not happening. And there needs to be an end to this war, an effort to repair Ukraine, to stop this violence, and to stop this vainglorious effort of building up NATO for some crazy reason. They think they're going to displace the Russian government. That's not going to happen. The neocons, Victoria Nuland, Tony Blinken, Jake Sullivan, I guess the president, President Biden, somehow think that they can use Ukraine as a battering ram with which to drive President Putin from office. He is enormously popular. The Russian economy is far more independent and more prosperous since the imposition of Western sanctions. The war was started by the United States in 2014 with the

coup, as you pointed it out. What is Joe Biden. You probably know him from when he was in the Senate and you were in the House, and even from his years as vice president. What is Joe Biden's ardent desire for war, calling Vladimir Putin names and refusing to speak with him on the phone and saying he's got to be removed from power and even declaring three times in the past two years, Putin has lost, Putin has lost, Putin has lost. Does Biden know what he's talking about? You know, the broader question here is where U.S. policy has been since 9-11. I mean, you know, Senator Biden was supportive of the war in Iraq, which turned out to be a triple canopy disaster. It's all based on lies.

Right. And the same kind of thinking exists in the U.S. government. Sometimes some of the same people are there who took us into Iraq, and now they're, you know, building on the disaster of Iraq, of Libya, and of our policy generally in that region. And they're propelling us into wars against Russia, staging a potential war against China. It's madness. It's against the interest of the American people. It's against the taxpayers of this country. It's driving our national debt. It's leading to the collapse of America, not country, on what's important to the American people,

on making sure the American people can survive, on making sure that they can afford food, housing, clothing, education, healthcare, and not trying to rule the world in this attempt to dominate with military force. We are causing our own country to be undermined. And I feel very strongly that it's time to put America above all that. It's time to put country above party. And it's time to draw the line and challenge these people who are in office or running for office, who want to keep us in war, who want to deny our civil liberties, which are being lost the more America goes towards war, and who are now actually trying to drag us into a wider war with Iran. Congressman, you and I have been friends

for 25 years. I got to tell you, you are as articulate and maybe even more so than when we first met 25 years ago. I love when your passion gets going. Tony Blinken, the Secretary of State, who I'm going to guess you also know, recently certified under oath that the need to send military hardware and 2,000-pound bombs to the government of Israel was A, an emergency, and B, an American national security interest. I think he committed perjury by saying that under oath. Why did he say it under oath? Because by signing it under oath, the government can bypass Congress and some crazy cockamamie law that Congress wrote that allows the president to spend money without an express authorization

from Congress. Is there any American national security interest in funding the slaughter in Gaza, Congressman Kucinich? Of course not. I mean, our interest is avoiding World War III here. You know, what's happening in Gaza and the West Bank, together with Israel being involved with attacking Iraqi interests, Iranian interests, Syrian interests, Lebanese interests, Yemeni interests, with the instability going on in Egypt and Jordan. We have all the elements for World War III here. And the bombing of the Iranian consulate in Damascus is clearly an act of war against Iran. It is a violation of international law. And at this point, the Netanyahu government doesn't care about international law. As far as they're concerned, there is no international law. They are now a rogue government. And what's happening, you know, they've destroyed the El Shifa hospital.

They've killed about 33,000 Palestinians and more, injuring countless people. They're driving a famine in Gaza right now, killing at least seven aid workers who were only there for the world central kitchen to give people food. I mean, when you look at this, and the United States is financing this, we are paying for it, our taxpayers are paying for this. I do not want to see any of our sons and daughters from this country sent into a conflict that we're being dragged into by Netanyahu and his people in the Likud, it is time that we took a stand for American interest. It is not in our interest to go into World War III. If Netanyahu wants to have an expanded war, he should be told, pal, you're on your own. We're not going to be there with you if you're going to ignite a war with Iran.

Because the United States, it's not in our interest to do that. And certainly Netanyahu has his own political problems where the expansion of a war might be good for him politically in Israel. I maintain it's horrible for Israel's interests. Horrible. Israel is at risk right now because of Netanyahu's policies, what he's doing with the instability, plus the instability that's going on in Egypt and Jordan. You could find a convergence on Israel. Then what would Israel do? See, Netanyahu is calculating that America is going to have to do whatever he says because there's an election right now. And you know what? We, you know, the false charge of Russia interfering with our election needs to be

displaced by the actual interference with Israel and Israel's interest in the American election. And we have to realize, we have to wake up. America has to wake up as to what's going on here. We're seeing our own freedoms undermined by things that are going on in other countries, and we're ignoring the needs of our own people. I've had it with this group that feels that America's freedom must be linked with the freedom of a country that is right now committing genocide and is getting away with it because of the politics of America that at this point are not in the interest of our own people. I want you to listen to a clip. This is a French news organization, France 24 News. The commentator is an American who's an expert on the Middle East, I expect you'll agree, but he does make a point that the consulate that was bombed,

though it's in Damascus, is Iranian territory. This could very well be an act of war, but I'll let you listen and respond. Cut number eight, Chris. We've heard from Iran in the last hour or so, from the president, in fact, saying the attack will not go unanswered. What response could there be, though, from Iran? Well, first of all, I will comment on that wording itself. It's a double negative, right? Will not go unanswered. You couldn't make that more passive if you could. And that language is deliberate. And what do I mean by deliberate? It's that until now, there has been a sort of tug of war on both sides. When I say both sides, Israel and Iran, not to allow one another to get to take this from a shadow war, a so-called sort of covert war between Israel and Iran's proxies into a full-fledged war which would drag in Israel against Iran and Iran against Israel and its closest ally, the U.S. So that language itself, I'm not saying it's de-escalatory language, but it's relatively restrained, very diplomatic language, meaning, like I said, Iran's in a delicate position. If, as it says, this is a

diplomatic compound, Iranian territory that was struck, it has to, for both domestic and for its own proxies in the region, to be seen as responding and responding strongly. At the same time, it is extremely wary, as Hezbollah's commander, Nasrallah, has made clear, of being dragged into an all-out, full-fledged conflict. Exercising restraint seems to still be the operative, the modus operandi in this type of clash. But the question is, at what point are the circumstances of the strike such that when he says not go unanswered, it means that perhaps they will have a very decisive, as they said yesterday, and very firm response, more so than we've seen in the past. Why would the Israelis attack Iranian property like that? A diplomatic consulate, if anything under international law, is immune from attack. First of all, there's no formal war going on. There's no declaration of war. But if anything in international law is immune from attack, it's hospitals, churches, synagogues, mosques, and diplomatic facilities. They blew it off the

face of the earth. They killed two generals and a bunch of civilians. Well, what you've just described is the fact that the Netanyahu government feels that it is not bound by any laws at all. You only need to look at what's happened in Gaza, the collective punishment that was revenged for October 7th, the fear that they're trying to instill in the region saying, you do anything, we will wipe you out, the ethnic cleansing that's going on, the genocide that's going on. There's no international law. So it follows, if you don't believe in international law, you go and you bomb a council at an embassy. But Netanyahu is very smart. He knows exactly what he's doing. He feels that the U.S., which has warned him about going into RAFA and completing an ethnic cleansing,

at the same time the U.S. gives him the billions of dollars in bombs and planes, he's got the Biden government over a barrel. And because of the politics of this, he knows that. And so he's just going to keep going on in any way that he can to adverse to the interest of humanity. Why? He's in trouble politically. He'd go to jail if he loses his position. And his other option is to become a hero for those Israelis who are deeply concerned about their country. But I will say this again. It's against Israel's interest. This isn't, you know, it. This goes beyond whether you're for

against Israel. I have a position that says, look, Israel has a right to survive, but if Israel keeps pushing this envelope of lawlessness, they could bring about their own destruction. But the larger question is this, are we going to get dragged into World War III? The United States, meaning we, are we going to be in a position where we tell Netanyahu, do whatever you want? I don't think President Biden wants that to happen, but that's what's happening. And it's time for us to draw the line, but we're not doing that. We're not doing it. Congressman Kucinich, Joe Biden could stop the slaughter in Gaza with a phone call. No more jets, no more spare parts, no more ammunition. Stop it

now, Bibi. We all know that. So my question to you is, who has more power in this dynamic, Benjamin Netanyahu or Joseph Biden? with the slaughter in Gaza. There's just no question about it. And now he'll use the same resources to wage war anywhere he pleases in the region without regard to international law. So who has the power? This is where we get to the central question here, Your Honor, and that is, are we putting America's interests above the interests of these other countries? We must start doing that. It is not in the interest of America to get into a wider war. It is not in the interest of America to send our sons and daughters to die in a foreign land just to be able to prop up a government in Israel that has abandoned international law. It is not

in the interest of America to further our debt by going into more and more conflicts. Our interest is in focusing on things back here in our country and making sure Americans have a good life, making sure Americans' freedoms are rescued from a government which is, frankly, we have to protect ourselves from our own government when it comes to the spying that goes on. This is one of the reasons why I'm running, Judge, for Congress as an independent, is that an independent view is needed right now as to expressing what's important for the American people, not just what's in the interest of another country.

If the Netanyahu government is guilty of genocide and the evidence is overwhelming, is not the Biden administration, is not the government of the United States of America guilty of genocide for unambiguously funding it and knowing what's going on? Look, I mean, if you follow law, aiding and abetting is also a participation in a crime. So the answer is very clear here. But what we have to do is to stop this conduct from occurring. And how's that done? America needs a new role in the world, not as a nation above nations, but a nation among nations. We cannot afford to be the policeman of the world. A $34 trillion budget underscores that. The destruction of American way of life, of anything

that people work their lives for, is on the line here with the policies that are coming out of Washington from Democrats and Republicans alike. So again, the reason why I'm taking an independent approach here is to talk about what's good for this country, putting country above party, making sure that we say, look, we're not in World War II anymore. Those days are gone. We need to look at how we can use diplomacy, the science of human relations, to settle our differences without killing, and those who would call ourselves allies, to define their role and to make sure they follow suit. But someone cannot claim to be an ally of the United States and at the same time wage war

recklessly and wantonly and then come to us and say, well, you got to come with us now. You don't have any choice. Well, we do have a choice and we have to draw the line and say, stop it. Not just a ceasefire, but stop the war against the people in Gaza, stop the dehumanizing of people in the West Bank, stop expanding the war in the region, bring all the parties together, come up with a grand agreement for peace, and move on to create the lives that all people all over the world want for themselves and their families, except that there are those who are in it for power and power alone. And if we don't be a restraining factor instead of a factor that pushes them to greater heights of violence, we will reap a whirlwind.

Congressman Dennis Kucinich, thank you very much for your time. It's been terrific to interview you. I wish you all the success in this effort to return to Congress because Congress needs you. Congress needs an independent voice, not beholden to the special interests, not wedded to the blind partisanship and dedicated to peace as you are. I hope you'll come back and visit with us again. Judge, I would appreciate that. And people who want to support our campaign, please go to Kucinich.com now and see how you can be helpful. We can really create an independent path in this country to help rescue our country from the grimness of wider war and abandonment of our freedoms.

Thank you, Congressman Kucinich. All the best, my friend. Thank you. Boy, that was terrific. And he is exactly as I remember him from when he was on my show at Fox, a fierce defender of civil liberties, constitutional government, and peace. Coming up today, Matt Ho at 2 o'clock, Lieutenant Colonel Karen Kwiatkowski at 3, and Aaron Maté at 4. Judge Napolitano for Judging Freedom. Thanks for watching!