Judging Freedom - Dr. Gilbert Doctorow : Can Putin Tolerate More War?

Episode Date: November 26, 2025

Dr. Gilbert Doctorow : Can Putin Tolerate More War?See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Your first great love story is free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.ca slash Wondery. That's audible.ca slash wondering. Hi, everyone, Judge Andrew Napolitano here for judging freedom. Today is Wednesday, November 26, 2025 in the United States, the day before a four-day holiday weekend. from Europe, our dear friend, Dr. Gilbert Dr. O, joins us now. Dr. Dr. O, a pleasure, my dear friend. Gee, what are we going to talk about today? Laughing, of course. Let's get right down to the bottom line of your views before we analyze this unique, some would say, bizarre and unorthodox process. Will the war in Ukraine, in your view, end on a battlefield? or a conference room?

A battlefield. I don't believe that the Russians will accept the revised draft plan, although I want to introduce something that's the latest news. That is presidential advisor Ushakoff has come out apparently today, saying that he has seen the latest revised draft, and, well, we can work with it. This highlights a split at the very top of the Russian government, which was first hint to that several weeks ago when Sergey Lavrov disappeared for a few days. There were rumors that perhaps he was ousted.

Then he came back and everything's fine. Well, things are not fine. Mr. Lavrov yesterday made a very hot, for him, very hot speech. which he criticized the whole process by which this piece is being pursued, namely back channels. Let's be clear about it. This was already obvious a week ago when Maria Zaharava said, well, we haven't seen the document. Indeed, that's the first 28-point plan. Indeed, they hadn't, because it was hatched without the participation of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. And this is exactly where the split is today.

And Avroth on one day says this is going nowhere, or he doubts, he hasn't seen the revised plan, but he doubts if this is going to work because the whole process is proceeding on a wrong footing by way of back channels and not by way of his ministry, which is, after all, responsible. Just as Marco Rubio is more or less out of the picture, or certainly out of the direct line of communication,

replaced by the president's former business colleague and his most inexperienced son-in-law. Lavrov is almost, I guess you could say, being big-footed by Dmitri Carol, the Russian billionaire Stanford-educated businessman. Surely President Putin knows what, Dmitriev is saying, no? Well, I think he does, but the point is that the

tight control of what is being negotiated is lost. Dmitriov is not a diplomat. Ushakov is, so let's be fair about this. Ushakov from 1998 to 2008 was the Russian ambassador to Washington. So he knows very well the United States and he knows procedures, but he's not following them today.

And I think the reason, I would take this back to Donald Trump, I think the reason this bizarre procedure has arisen is that Trump does not trust rightly so, does not trust the whole State Department, not just Marco Rubio. After all, the State Department was populated by people who came in under Dick Cheney,

during purges, and they are buying large neocons. So it's not just Mr. Rubio. That's the problem. Of course, Rubio did enter the stage, finally, and it looks like he's doing a pretty good job of wrecking things. Here's Foreign Minister Lavrov on Monday, so three days ago, complaining about... I say complaining.

He has such an amiable tone with which you and our audience. are familiar, megaphone diplomacy and leaked documents, Chris, cut number 11. Those who engage in this kind of megaphone diplomacy certainly have their own goals. And there were some comments from Macron and from others that those are unacceptable at terms that it was a capitulation. for Ukraine, but what matters is whether Ukraine is willing to engage in such an agreement. And until the final agreement has reached, the terms are confidential, and those who are trying to analyze the documents that were leaked deliberately to blow up the hype in the media,

and they're trying to undermine the efforts of Donald Trump. They're trying to excuse the plan for their own agenda. Surely Foreign Minister Lavrov was aware of the Wittkov-Kerl-Demitria meeting for three days in Florida, no? Oh, I'm sure he was, but he wasn't a privy to what they'd agreed. And I think he was miffed over this. It's not just a question of personality. It's a question of substance. Dimitriov was a loose cannon on the deck.

And some of the more oddball points in the 28-point plan obviously were his own creation. They were not coming down from Putin or anybody else. I mean, the 28-point plan looked like. something that was written on a on a cocktail napkin in a bar almost i mean it was decidedly undiplomatic and clearly written by people not uh not familiar with any of with any of this you know i had the uh opportunity i'm sure you know this to question uh maria zecharova this is now 10 days ago and i asked her what was going on she said we haven't gotten anything from the americans and we don't know anything about it

Two days later, this thing popped up. I think she was telling me the truth at the time. I don't think she knew about it. That's exactly what Loveroff was complaining about. His ministry was not kept in the loop. And they're trying, running, chasing the ambulance. And that he finds offensive and with good reason, because we see where it's headed. And the situation gets worse and worse.

after all, now we hear that Wittkoff will not be coming by himself, but very likely it will be chaperoned by Kushner, Trump's son-in-law. This is reaching the stage of absurdity. It is reaching the stage of absurdity. You pointed out in your notes to me overnight last night, and this is a little bit of irony, and to me out of the norm for Prime Minister Lavrov, When he criticizes this process, he's also criticizing his boss.

Clearly, his boss dispatched Carol Demetriev to Florida to meet with Whitkoff, right? Yes, and that brings up an issue which one of my colleagues has been explaining on this program and elsewhere, with a good deal of reason. There's logic to this, and the question is, is it right or wrong, not not whether his point is right or wrong, but whether what he's describing in Putin's behavior, He's saying that Putin has made his highest priority establishing good relations with the United States. This is exactly what is going down in flames now. And the question is, to what extent will this bad bet come back against Vladimir Putin? Is he going to have to change tack now and make concessions to to the more nationalist and more vigorous defenders of Russian interests in his own entourage

and further afield in the Kremlin elites. I think he will. If the peace process crashes and there's every sign it will, then Russia will have to ramp up and escalate and hasten its conquest of Ukraine. Right, right. Then we'll see the arrest next come out, probably. Here's President Trump last night on Air Force One flying from Washington, D.C. It was home in Mar-a-Lago for the holiday weekend. It's clear he's not sending Rubio. Chris, cut number 15. Steve Whitcomb is going over.

Maybe with Jared. I'm not sure about Jared going. But he's involved in the process. Smart guy. And they're going to be meeting with President Putin, I believe, next week in Moscow. Next week in Moscow? I think so, yes. What kinds of concessions are the Russians going to have to make?

Well, they're making concessions. They're big concessions. They stop fighting, and they don't take any more land. Again, it's a one that would have never happened about Mr. President. This was not anything that was going to happen. It's happened because of stupidity. It's too bad. Mr. President.

Mr. President. The President is going to Russia next week. Does that mean that Thanksgiving deadline doesn't stand anymore for Ukraine? We're going to say. what happens. They set up a date, and the date is going to be sometime in the very near future. Is this a deadline? I don't have a deadline. I just, you know what the deadline for me is when it's over? And I think everybody's tired of fighting at this moment. They're losing too many people. I think it is to quote our friend, our mutual friend, Pepe Escobar used the phrase in his

a wonderful column and yesterday on the show the theater of the absurd particularly with respect to Jared Kushner. What does the Kremlin think when the president's business partner or

colleague as a developer in New York City and son-in-law as a developer in New Jersey come instead of the Secretary of State? Do they get it? Do they understand that Rubio and his crew are neocons who want the war to continue rather than end?

Well, they know very well who Rubio is, that he's in the enemy camp. I think that there was one statement in that little video that was made by Donald. And that is Jarad, well, he's a smart guy. There you have the crux of the issue. I don't question whether Jarrett is a smart guy. I don't question whether it calls a smart guy. What I, and I'm sure the people whom you were interested in in the Kremlin are saying is, That's not enough.

That's already better than almost everybody in Europe, because, as they were saying last night, on the authoritative talk show of Vladimir Salaviov, the European heads of state are unprepared. They're accidental people. They don't have the skills, the knowledge, the experience, to perform at the jobs that they now hold as head of government, head of state. In the case of Kushner and Wittkopf, no, they are not undereducated.

They are not primitive people, but they're out of their depth completely. They assume that this is coming in, swooping down and using their native intelligence and their business skills will enable them to negotiate a very difficult path in which there are enemies at every turn, and it isn't working. It isn't working at all. So President Putin will receive them because he doesn't want to send the message to President Trump. I don't want to waste my time with your son-in-law. He's not going to do that.

He's not going to be personally offensive or diplomatically odd, but he'll basically listen to them and say, have a safe trip back to the U.S. Oh, I don't question whether there isn't a possibility. that the Russians will say, well, we can try to work with this. We have to have further discussions, but it will end in no deal. I don't think they want to, just as you say, Poitess suggests that they will not make any remarks about Kushner being there, though it's so inappropriate.

I think also they will not dismiss out of hand the revised plan. But that does not mean that this will go very far. And in the meantime, the Russians will conquer as much territory as they can. And this will go to a decision on the battlefield. How could any plan possibly be accepted by both the Kremlin and Zelensky's people? Oh, it can't. And the people are talking about the several points, sensitive points, that have to be negotiated between Trump and Zelensky directly on its home.

Well, they are not just several points. They are the essence of the whole agreement. If the basic premise is that Russia is a stalemate, that Russia has not won the war and the Ukraine has not lost the war, then any attempt that the negotiation is a futile. Well, President Trump, this is too long for me to read, but he did recently post something saying the original 28-point plan was drafted by the United States,

I'm summarizing here. It has been fine-tuned in the hopes that this is a peace plan. I've directed my special envoy, Steve Whitkoff, to meet with President Putin, Secretary of the Army, Dan Driscoll, that's J.D. Vance's former law school roommate, will be meeting with the Ukrainians. I will be briefed by Vance and by Rubio and by Heggseth, and I hope that Zelensky and Putin will agree soon. I'm summarizing fairly what I think, what he wrote yesterday.

What about the $185 billion Russian dollars? I guess they're rubles, but the equivalent of $185 billion in Euricleer. What's going to happen with that? The Belgians don't want it to go because they'll lose in litigation. Trump sounds like he wants to use it and spend it on reconstruction in, Ukraine. It doesn't matter how he spends it. It's theft. Well, that is the only point in the 28-point plan that we know has been removed as a result of the talks in Geneva between the Americans and the Ukrainians. And that is very important to know.

This came out in Bloomberg. It's important to know because it tells you who is running the Ukrainian delegation. It is von der Leyen and the European institutions. Yes, they weren't present in the room, but all of their desiderata, what they want to see happen next, was being delivered by Yermak, the head of the Ukrainian delegation. And removing that point is of great significance because von der Leyen has gone on to say in the last day or so, oh yes, we Europeans are the only ones who have the right to determine the fate of those 185 million euros losing me all right it appears that there you go you're back with us good the you were explaining von der Leyen's role i have a clip from her but let me hear what you had to have to say because

the clip is absurd but please continue the 185 billion in question. What is designated by von der Leyen and for use to perpetuate the war, and also to hand the money over to the very same corrupt individuals who have been skimming everything coming to Ukraine. Mr. Yermak himself is the head of the corruption list, and he was made the chief of the delegation. But the point is that the money would be used to continue the war, and she is vehemently opposed to its being taken up by Donald Trump for this purpose of reconstruction in a peace settlement. She and the other 24 and 24 heads of state of the European member states want the war to continue because that gives them employment for as long as they want

in their present positions. They will be the leaders of states at war. And that suits them find even if Europe is destroyed just as Ukraine has been. I think she wants to be commander-in-chief of an EU army, which thankfully doesn't exist yet, but here she is three days ago. You won't like this. Chris, cut number seven. Any credible and sustainable peace plan should first and foremost stop the killing and end the war while not sowing the seeds for a future conflict. We have agreed, on the main elements necessary for a just and lasting peace and Ukraine sovereignty. And let me highlight three of them. First, borders cannot be changed by force. Second, as a sovereign

nation, there cannot be limitations on Ukraine's armed forces that would leave the country vulnerable to future attack and thereby also undermining European security. Third, the The centrality of the European Union and securing peace for Ukraine must be fully reflected. Ukraine must have the freedom and sovereign right to choose its own destiny. They have chosen a European destiny. It starts with the country's reconstruction, its integration into our single market and our defense industrial base, and ultimately joining our Union. We will continue our work together with Ukraine, our member states, the Coalition of the Willing

and the United States to make real progress towards peace. What is important is that we move forward as partners on a single track. She doesn't want peace. Why should the Americans and Europeans care about or even involved in the Europeans? Well, they don't have a choice about the Europeans being involved. After all, several of the points in that 28-point plan ultimately come onto the desk of the Europeans. That is the non-involvement in NATO, NATO changing its charter to exclude possible joining.

the whole question of security guarantees that ultimately takes up the Europeans because they're the ones who are rushing forward to offer these guarantees. In point of fact, every single word in Fonderlein's speech was a lie. I know that in comments to yours and other important

podcasts, people call her Fonderlying. And that's exactly what she is. There wasn't one honest statement that she made. She only wants a perpetuation of the war. The money is a need for that. And she's lying about the likelihood

of actually getting it. I'm sitting here in Brussels. We are in the middle of the biggest general strike in this country since the 1960s and 1980s. He wouldn't know about it because it doesn't get front-page coverage at any of the Western Union. No, no. This is all news to me,

and I would imagine to almost everybody in the West. There is no public transport in this country. that's working. The main airport of countries closed. Zaventem is closed for the whole day. There's a very big, a very big movement against the government over what? Over various austerity measures. Regrettably, the labor unions here are apolitical. They only deal in economic issues, not in the root causes of why we have the economic issues. And you know, and I know, the root cause is the war. The budgeting for military procurement and so forth, which was not foreseen and for which there is no available

money, except when you take away more social benefits, retirement benefits, unemployment benefits, and so forth. And that's what the strike is all about. Well, let me ask you one last, or let me raise one last matter before we part for now. What do, what does denotification mean to the Kremlin? I mean, this is an idea and an ideology. How could Ukraine possibly be denazified without more killing? No, no, it's not physical elimination of Nazis. That the Russians are doing very nicely, thank you, on the field of the battle.

It is change in the educational system. All of the textbooks in Ukraine are carrying, they're disseminating Nazi propaganda. The whole reordering of history that is taught in Ukrainian schools is preparing the children to hate Russia. That has to be removed and it can be removed. You change the Ministry of Education, well, it's part of regime change in Kiev. It's an other word for getting the Nazi gang out of power. After that happens, an education returns to normal disinterested study of the past rather than propaganda interests in the past. Then a natural order of things, the Nazi ideology, which is only favored by maybe 1% of the population, will absolutely disappear from you.

Dr. Gilbert, Dr. Rowe, thank you very much. Do they do Americans in Europe celebrate Thanksgiving tomorrow? We used to. There was a very big American community here. We even had an American ghetto in Waterloo. But that has the, these things change with taxes and one country and other favoring market marketing centers, which was the case in the 1980s, 90s, marketing centers from all American corporations for Europe, who are here in Vienna or in Athens. Well, that's all gone. And so we do have Americans here, but largely they're American officers affiliated with NATO, business people almost non-existent. Well, I hope you have a nice holiday weekend as we do here in the United States. the U.S., thank you for your time, and as always, we'll look forward to seeing you next week. It's my pleasure.

Bye-bye. We have a busy day coming up for you at 10 o'clock this morning, Eastern Scott Ritter. At 11 o'clock, Max Blumenthal, at noon, Professor Glenn Deeson, at 1 o'clock, Colonel Douglas McGregor, at 2 o'clock Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, at 3 o'clock, Phil Giraldi, at 4 o'clock, Professor John Mearsheimer, Judge Napolitano for Judging Freedom. Thank you. Thank you.