Judging Freedom - Gilbert Doctorow : Russia and Ukraine: Real Negotiations or Delay?

Episode Date: January 28, 2026

Gilbert Doctorow : Russia and Ukraine: Real Negotiations or Delay?See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Undeclared wars are commonplace. Pragically, our government engages in preemptive war, otherwise known as aggression with no complaints from the American people. Sadly, we have become accustomed to living with the illegitimate use of force by government. To develop a truly free society, the issue of initiating force must be understood and rejected. What if sometimes to love your country you had to alter or abolish the government? What if Jefferson was right? What if that government is best, which governs least?

What if it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong? What if it is better to perish fighting for freedom than to live as a slave? What if freedom's greatest hour of danger is now? Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for judging freedom. Today is Wednesday, January 28, 2006, Gilbert, Dr. O'Hour. joins us now. Gilbert, always a pleasure, my dear friend. Before we get to your analysis and understanding of the negotiations in Abu Dhabi and related matters, can you tell us if there's any

palpable, any noticeable reaction in Europe to the killings on American streets by agents of the federal government allegedly enforcing U.S. immigration law? Particularly I'm talking about the two murders in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Well, there's a lot of coverage of it here, not only on the BBC, but on the local Euro News and in the newspapers here in Belgium. And the reason is obvious. There's a lot of unhappiness among officialdom over what happened to Davos. They all know that Europe was humiliated. And they are looking for fault lines in MAGA, in the United States,

misbehavior by Mr. Trump that causes pushback in the American public so that they can show that he is not the all-powerful person that he presents himself to be. So there is this bit of revenge-seeking in the – in the – in the coverage of events in the States. You know, you and I are both consume the Financial Times. You obviously get it in Europe before we get it here. But top of the fold in this morning's Financial Times, I'm looking at it now, are a half dozen ICE agents armed to the teeth in this international financial newspaper.

So they must, and they have a great finger on. on the pulse of people think, people's thinking they must understand that this is a very serious issue, whether it's revenge against Trump for his behavior last week or whether it's because this is a moral issue. What is the EU view of Trump's behavior in Davos last week? I think they would rather forget it. I think that the prime minister of Belgium made a statement which was picked up by media and the Russians immediately carried it because it was so impactful. He said that we were living fairly happily as vassals and now we face unhappiness as slaves.

And that is what they saw themselves to be. First, the open admission that they were vassals, which was a term that Zbignab Brzynski first applied to the European allies in his 1990s book on the Great Grand Chessboard. Well, they were accepting it now. Nobody spoke about it until now. And now it's out that they are vassals.

And that they are in a worse position. So this was not accidental. It was not Trump going off his speech. It was intentional. And since we're going to be talking about Russia, it was very warmly received in Russia because it changed entirely the chances of a peace brokered by Trump.

What is the Kremlin's view of Trump as a president? KG, unable to, unpredictable, self-centered, worthy of trust, a worthy negotiating partner. What do you think Vladimir Putin and Sergei Lavrov think of Donald Trump, the man? First of all, admiration for his success. They do not question whether it is good or bad.

As Spisgoth himself said, of respect to Greenland. We won't comment on whether this is good or bad, but it is impressive. It is going to make history United States and in the world at large. And in that regard, they take Trump very seriously. Now, it also is clear that there are no illusions. It's stated on, again, the voice of the Kremlin through these authoritative talk shows, it is stated that Trump is not a friend. So Trump is a

very serious and, of course, unscrupulous competitor. And Trump can and is, and is, doing serious arm to the Russian economy, which forces those who are managing the economy to throw out all of the free market delusions that Russia had in the 1990s and to make an institutionalized way what they're now doing on an interim basis, which is running the economy in a managed way, as a planned economy. So there are big changes in the way Russia is managed, it's governed, that our direct result of what Mr. Trump has done. He is a necessary talking partner, and I think they take very seriously the chances of success in the peace talks that he has broken. Are I'm moving now to Abu Dhabi, are President, President Zelensky, I guess I can't call him president.

Are Vladimir Zelensky's statements that Ukraine will never give up the Donbass made exclusively for a domestic political consumption? Or is he serious? Because if the Russians thought he was serious, why would they waste their time negotiating? No, they wouldn't have come to Abu Dhabi if they thought he was serious. This is a statement he made after the fact, of course, and it is exactly as you describe it. It was for domestic consumption to buy time, to keep his domestic enemies at bay while this negotiation process goes on. But there can be no question, but the Russians came to the meeting only because it was prearranged and pre-agreed that essentially the 28-point peace plan that was produced by Demetriot and Witkoff in late November is the operating document for what we're. we are witnessing, meaning the withdrawal of the Ukrainian forces from all of Donbos before anything else happens. And the purpose of having these military men there in one set of two parallel discussions

because there were two tracks going on in Apodafi. One was the military men meeting to talk about security issues and the second was a group meeting on improving or normalizing you, U.S. Russian relations. When you say military men, do you mean literally generals, Ukrainian generals meeting with Russian generals, or do you mean civilian, senior people in each side's ministry of defense? The latter. These were, well, no, on the Russian side, of course, he's a military man. He is a member of what we would call the Joint Chiefs of Staff. So the Russian Minister of Defense.

is a military person, unlike our current person isn't an apt example because he's off the wall. But unlike a typical American Secretary of Defense who's not in the military, the Russian Minister of Defense is in the military. Do I have that correct? No, it is, the situation is directly parallel to the States. You've got a civilian in charge of the Ministry of Defense, and you have generals in charge of the Pentagon. The equivalent of the people who were there with the equivalent of Pentagon joint chief staff.

And the particular staff general there was military intelligence. His counterpart was the leader of the Ukrainian delegation, Budanov. Budanov was appointed two weeks ago to be the chief of Zelensky's presidential office. But Budanov had been serving for the last. several years as the head of military intelligence. And the Russians came at all to this meeting Abu Dhabi. It was because they were persuaded that by Ritkoff, by Trump, that the points of the 28-point plan is the operating plan. Budanov is a person whom they find particularly objectionable. Yeah, they want to kill Bhukdanov because they believe he orchestrated the assassination, of the Russian generals in Moscow.

Precisely. They consider him to be a murderer and a terrorist. But they went to meet with him anyway because the Americans were there as a pro-cressant and the ones putting this marriage together and because it was pre-agreed. What were they, what security issues were being discussed? They were discussing the procedures for the Ukrainian evacuation of Donbos. Wow. Was Zelensky there? No. No, Zelensky was not there.

The Russians, Dehko, said they would be willing to receive Zelensky in Moscow for talks with Putin. But if such a statement would come up, it's only because the Russians are satisfied that they're getting essentially all the points they wanted in a capitulation. And how is Zelensky going to sell that to those who once threatened to hang him from a tree outside of his presidential office? Well, those people are the ones who are negotiating with the Russians now. So I don't think he has to worry about where's the nearest tree. The Americans have put together with the Russians have put together an off-ramp for Zelensky. And that will be, as was envisioned in the 28-point plan, elections within 100 days. There's a second feature which was not specifically described as having an influence on this question,

but I now see is directly linked to the question of the replacement of Zelensky and the elections. And that is the use of the Russian frozen assets as well within Ukraine they can call it reparations. For the Russian standpoint, it's the purchase price. And if that is fully explained to the Ukrainian nation before a referendum takes place, and if the referendum is properly supervised by international, not observers, but peacekeepers, to prevent the kind of violence and fascist behavior that spoiled the last parliamentary elections in Ukraine, If all this happens, the Russians and the Ukrainians understand that $800 billion in reconstruction money is coming their way, of which a substantial portion is coming from Russia. I think that they will vote for a replacement of Zilansky, who will be carrying out the terms sketched for him in the 28-point plan.

Tell us about the other negotiation track, the one intended. to result in normal state-to-state, economic, commercial, academic, travel, cultural, et cetera, relations between the United States of America and the Russian Federation? Well, I think the economic side would be one of the first to be addressed in the correction of relations. That is, removal of sanctions step-by-step, as was described in the 28-point plan. The notable event of the last week, which was called out by Dimitri Kisseldof in his News of the Week program on Sunday, which has been a major source for me on what I've been saying regarding Abu Dhabi. The point is that the discussion was about discussion in first in, in, in, in, the Kremlin with Witkoff, Kushner and Grunbaum. Grunzbaum's presence was important because of what

about to say. They were discussing the decision by Putin to join the peace board and to make a $1 billion contribution to be a permanent member of the board to be taken from Russian frozen assets. Now that is quite important, a follow-on information from another meeting that that Putin had the same day with the president of the Palestinian state, such as it is, Mahmoud Abbas, in which he informed Abbas about the Russian decision to contribute $1 billion to this peace board, which has its first mission resolving the problems of Gaza. And he also said, and this is not covered by anybody else, that Russia's additional $4 billion and frozen assets in the United States would be made available

towards the reconstruction of Palestine. So this was important in and of itself. And I think this was a subject that was further pursued at the talks for reestablishing normal state-to-state relations. But since some of my colleagues have raised the issue of the failure of the United States to act on restoring full-deflictuality to the respective embassies. I think we have to make a little diversion here to understand something that you and I have discussed,

going back in November, when there was that leak, a leak about the 28-point plan, and when the Europeans all intervened and wrecked everything by setting up separate meetings with Zelensky, which led to a 20 point or 18 point plan or a 20 point plan, in which gutted essentially what were the terms of the Dimitri of Wittkov, 28 point plan. Now, there was a leak. Somewhere around that time, our good friend, Sergey Lavrov,

complained about this back-channel way of conducting negotiations other than going through normal diplomatic channels, and he pointed to the leak. Well, he missed the point. The point is the leak was not the back channel. The leak was that Rubio had been in circle, and it was clear that on his way to Europe by way of Canada, he had given senators the information about the 28-point plan.

It was leaked, and it caused this commotion in Europe, Europe that wrecked the peace proceedings at that point. Rubrio, as we know, is outside, completely outside, the discussion groups for Ukraine-Russia now. And the back channel is working just fine, so that Mr. Lavrov was a little bit mistaken and took offense for the wrong reasons about his ministry not being in the loop. So with the... Yeah. Go ahead, please. I didn't mean to interrupt you.

I thought you had finished. Well, the negotiations have been very successful by the back channel. Right. And this is why there's been no restoration of diplomatic functionality in the embassies. Because Trump correctly does not trust Rubio and does not trust the whole State Department to implement his initiatives with respect to the peace. So it's all going by back channels. And the back channels had no leaks when Rubio was not a party to them.

I know that American domestic politics is not your bailiwick, although obviously you're intelligent and well informed. But here you have the Secretary of State of the United States uninvolved in two of the most dramatic and important foreign policy ventures. Gaza, Israel, Ukraine, Russia. And all of this is being negotiated by the president's friends, colleagues, and in the case of Krishna, son-in-law. What does Marco Rubio do, just to worry about the font size on the statements issued by the embassies, which is an issue for him? I think he's running Venezuela, and he's hoping to run in Cuba. So Trump has found something

for Rubio to sink his teeth and to find, to prove himself and to prepare for his candidacy for the next presidential elections or nomination procedure within the party. I don't think that Rubio has a spare minute to busy himself with Gaza or with Ukraine now that he has as wonderful position as the overlord of Venezuela. Why is the Kremlin so willing to surrender funds that the EU and the U.S. is stolen? I suppose the lesson here is that the Russian state will never again use banks outside of Russia. Well, we have to see how that goes. Never say never. As regards the present situation, it depends on how you want to look at it. From one side, if you are a super patriot and you are slightly xenophobic, and there are a lot of Russians who are xenophobic and who think that all of us Westerners are our pack of idiots.

The Maitre Mvedev comes to mind. Well, people who leave comments on your channel, on other similar channels, Russians, but in their Russian language, additions either on route tube or when some of them are put on in on youtube uh these people are deeply anti-western and deeply xenophobic as well so i wouldn't i wouldn't be too concerned about their feeling that russia is being humiliated or taking advantage of the reality is that russia will get what it wants it wants to have ukraine neutral it will be neutral it wants to have control of the main areas that are the Russian-speaking dominant, which are the Donbos. The further you go from the Donbos, the more diluted the actual Russian-speaking part of the

population is in Ukraine. And, of course, when you cross the Napa River, then it is very heavily Ukrainian nationalist, and the Russians don't want to be. Right, right. Well, there's neutral, and there's neutral. I mean, are there going to be Western troops in? the surviving parts of Ukraine? Is there going to be a demilitarized zone? Are there going to be any armaments aimed eastward? Well, all of those points, all three points you mentioned,

were covered in the 28-point peace plan. No foreign troops. A demilitarized zone, yes, but it will be at 60 kilometers on each side of the Napa River. It will not be anywhere near the population centers of Donetsk or Lugansk and it will not have Ukrainian administration there which was partly which was the Ukrainian pushback to the 28-point plan. I'm saying that the basic elements in the 28-point plan which looked a little bit peculiar to us because it had elements that were not strictly Ukrainian war and now we can understand it in the two track negotiations going on in Abu Dhabi. All right.

If the end result is comparable to what you've described, is Zelensky a dead man walking? Not necessarily. If indeed, but you have Budanov there who's going to have to sell this when he gets home, you've got the most vicious people in the surround, in the entourage

of Zelensky. are now virtually accepting the 28-point plan. And I think that they're not going to go in Lynch Zelensky. And I think that the United States is preparing, as I say, a way out for Zelensky when within 100 days, or longer, they have new elections. And when the real terms, the economic terms of the settlement are described fully to the Ukrainian nation, $800 billion is more than any of them could have imagined. So I think that there's a good chance that he can leave walking and not being carried out.

But we'll see. His behavior, by the way, has been described by very responsible people here in Europe, in Germany in particular. His behavior in his speech at Davos lost him a lot of support that he may have had even in Germany. Right. Because it would seem to be provocative, demeaning Europe, insulting Europe, and trying to provoke European participation in a war.

So where's the 800 billion going to come from? The EU has 300 billion. I don't know what the U.S. has, but I don't think it adds up to 800. Well, let's go back to the 28.10. It was foreseen that, um, uh, Russian 300 billion would be divided up. Some of the larger part would be for a joint investment U.S. Russian fund for a general purpose development activities and not necessarily related to Ukraine.

But I think it could be easily diverted and attached to Ukraine. If I recall properly, that plan foresaw a 100 billion euro or dollar contribution by the EU, considering that they just approved these 95 billion two-year loan to Ukraine, I don't think it's unreasonable to tell them, well, since you were putting out that money to be considered a loan against reparations, why don't you just keep it there directed to Ukraine and contribute it to the Peace Board for development or redevelopment of Ukraine? So you're would have something like $400 billion. And I think that Mr. Trump's finance guy, Fink, who is president or chairman, CEO of BlackRock, as well as the co-chairman of the World Economic Forum,

I think he has the connections to line up additional funds for investments in Ukraine. So the money could be found. Gilbert Dr. O, thank you very much, my dear friend. A fascinating, fascinating conversation and an eye-opener, at least for me, and I suspect for a lot of our viewers as to what's happening in Abu Dhabi. And to the extent that this produces an amicable result, I will say publicly, Gilbert Docterow has been right all along. But, of course, it remains to be seen what happens. All the best deal. next week. All right.

Goodbye. Bye. Coming up later today, at 11 this morning, Max Blumenthal at 1 this afternoon, Professor Glenn Dieson, at 3 this afternoon, the great Phil Giraldi, Judge Napolitano for judging freedom.