Judging Freedom - Gilbert Doctorow : Trump Shattering NATO

Episode Date: April 15, 2026

Gilbert Doctorow : Trump Shattering NATOSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Undeclared wars are commonplace. Pragically, our government engages in preemptive war, otherwise known as aggression with no complaints from the American people. Sadly, we have become accustomed to living with the illegitimate use of force by government. To develop a truly free society, the issue of initiating force must be understood and rejected. What if sometimes to love your country you had to alter or abolish the government? Jefferson was right? What if that government is best which governs least? What if it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong? What if it is better to perish fighting for freedom than to live

as a slave? What if freedom's greatest hour of danger is now? Hi everyone, Judge Andrew Napolitano here for judging freedom. Today is Wednesday, April 15, 26. Gilbert Dr. O, my dear friend, joins us now. Gover to pleasure. As always, thank you for accommodating my schedule. I want to talk to you about Donald Trump and his relationship to NATO. But before we get into that, what are your observations from the weekend events in Islamabad? I thought of you this morning when I read a piece in the Financial Times, the headline of which was Vance, handed a poison chalice.

I think that's accurate because he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. As the vice president, he would be facing a great threat if he came out publicly against Trump on anything, least of all on this high priority issue of destroying Iran. On the other hand, if he pursues this and is humiliated as he was in Islamabad by carrying out the orders of his boss, which could not be executed properly, could not lead to any results, could only be embarrassing. If he pursues that path, he's also damned because it is a, he forms a record of failures, which is not the best path to the White House. Well, he did not have a very good week. He spent three days campaigning in English to Hungarian voters on behalf of Prime Minister Orban, who was soundly trounced. He had this perform, what I would call performative, I invite you to agree or disagree, performative dance in Islamabad during the

course of which he had 11 phone calls with. President Trump. It's not clear who called whom and one with Prime Minister Netanyahu. I wonder how many phone calls there were from Kushner and Whitkoff to Netanyahu. I mean, this was a puppet this weekend, was he not? Oh yes, absolutely. I said humiliating because he was on a very short tether. The person who is the second most important official United States to be on such a short tether cannot do his career anything. Was this a serious negotiation or was it just performative?

From the Iranian standpoint, it certainly was serious. From the American standpoint, it is part of Trump's singing and dancing, trying to dominate the airwaves and to claim that he is in control of events and everyone else comes around to him and begs for an audience. This is to cover up the obvious fact that you, I, and great many analysts of different political persuasions all agree on that this whole venture in Rome has been a political disaster from just a week or so into it. And as today, do anyone looking closely, a loss that he has to extricate himself as best he can. How can he extricate himself at this point? What out exists for President Trump?

Well, he will, in any case, whatever happens. As he likes to say, he will claim victory. And he has points that he can make. And boy, will he make them. How many naval vessels of Iran, he sent to the bottom, how many sites of military and police infrastructure in Iran you've destroyed, and how they prepared the way from uprising in Iran.

And if only if the Iranian people were too timorous or too uninformed or have themselves to blame that they have not freed themselves from this tyranny. So he will make such a very brave statements. You can be sure, he's not going to admit, But we can all see that he lost the war. So he started a war he couldn't win. He started a war with objectives he couldn't achieve.

Now he'll take credit for ending the war. I don't think the American people are going to buy this in November. Well, I'm not sure, just looking at the last few interviews you've had since Monday, I'm not sure that he's terribly concerned or worked up over that. If that were the case, he wouldn't have gotten into this totally gratuitous spat with the Pope. So I think he has all things on his mind. But as we go into the issue,

which is the title given to our chat today, I think I'd like to explain where I'm coming from and why what I say can be different from what others. Before you do that, I want to ask one other question. How does the Kremlin view what we have just, been discussing this fruitless, useless, disastrous war? Well, there are these two sides to their take on it. One, considering the great prudence of Vladimir Putin, is the concern that they may be dealing

indeed with a madman, and they don't want to inflame him further so they does something totally irrational and threatening to themselves. That is one take. The other take is how we can use it to to our benefit because he is enough, he has backed himself in the corner and he needs help getting out of it. And that opens opportunities to the Russians to extract concessions from him as the relationship goes forward. Do now to NATO, do NATO leaders expect it to survive without US membership and financing in in its present form, in some other form, or to go away? No, I don't think they expected to survive. And there's even Sanchez in Spain was making the very loud statements

the last few days that Europe desperately needs an army. And in saying that, of course, he is rejecting NATO. But before I proceed, I'd like to just take one step back where I'm coming from and what perspective I'm bringing to this, time horizon. That is critical. Just as I've said repeatedly, who was responsible for a war or whether it is provoked or not provoked all depends on the timing when

you say the relation started it's they started two weeks ago there's one that's one explain who's guilty and if it started 10 years ago it's a difference so here it is with looking forward the same issue comes up what is your time horizon journalists usually have a time horizon like two weeks back maybe two weeks forward people uh geopoliticians or or political scientists may have a how time horizon of months to a few years. Historians to their discredit may have a time horizon of 600 years, which is utterly ridiculous for purposes of geopolitical analysis, but they certainly have a long time horizon, both looking forward and about the way, maybe counterintuitive, also looking forward. Historians also can look forward. I am by training in historian. I have,

I have by nature a longer time horizon than almost all of my peers, and certainly than all journalists in Main Street. But surely your time horizon is shorter than 600 years. Ten years. I say 10 years from now, what we make of all this will look very, very different. I concede the fact that my colleague, Ray McGovern, said on your show on Monday that that Trump has lost it, that he really may be wandering off into dementia or into some delusional state. I don't deny that as a possibility. However, in his madness, there was a method. The method

goes back way before Mr. Trump became of questionable sanity and competence. And that goes, decades going to taking this back decades there we see the what he's achieving both by will by those both by subjective factors and by objective factors by what he wants and by what he actually does and achieves is is implementing is realizing his decades long desire to to smash NATO to smash the EU to smash other multinational multilateral alliances and organizations and to bring forward to the first space, to the first place on the stage, the nation state. And that makes him a realist. There is a logic to it all. I'm not saying that he is in perfect mental condition to defend that logic today, but to fact that what he's doing.

He has destroyed the orchids, the Australian-based defense in the Pacific, the two contain China at sea. He has destroyed the relations with India that took 20 years to cultivate, so they would form the Indo-Pacific retaining wall against China. He has shattered nature, which is falling apart in front of our eyes. He will not have to ask Congress for permission to leave it, because the Europeans are leaving it first. Slovenia is going to hold a referendum now on leaving NATO. That tells you which way the wind is blowing. So he is destroying these, and you say,

well, what's going to fill it in? It would be chaos wrong. His idea was and is a Yalta to a world that Henry Kissinger would understand it once, where the three major powers in the world, the United States, Russian, China, divide up spheres of influence, look after the major issues in their domain, and allow the small guys to settle their differences among themselves without intervention. That also assumes the ends of the 750 American military bases abroad. So there is a logic to it all that will come out 10 years from now,

just as when I went to see the opera Nixon in China by John Adams, what I saw of Nixon, was certainly not the Nixon that we saw, you and I saw in the days of his resignation afterward. It was a far more favored vision of the man and of his genius than anyone would have ever admitted back then. So it is with Trump, even in these days when I won't call him a genius anymore. But nonetheless, what he's doing is very positive. What will the Germans, the Hungarians under their new government and the Poles do, Polish people without NATO? They'll look to the east and they'll understand that they are naked and they'll do what you should do in that situation. Wisen up, come to your senses and sit down at the table and talk.

that is all I have to do. I've said for years now, Europe does not need an army. Europe needs a new foreign policy. And that's all it will take. The Russians are ready to sit and talk about making amends, about bridging the gap between themselves and Europe in a common security architecture that protects everyone, not just one side.

Here is someone who is, is dead wrong in my view and profoundly disagrees with you. I don't know where her political career is going to take her. I hope nowhere. This is the Commissioner for Foreign Affairs. I don't even remember her first name, her last name is Kailas, Kaya Kowas, the former head of the government in Estonia.

She's the Commissioner for Foreign Affairs of the EU two days ago here in New York before the Security Council of the United Nations Chris, cut number 10. And today, we are witnessing the gravest violation and breakdown of the international law since the Second World War. As a result, peace and security are in demise. The breakdown of international law is evident in today's two preeminent global crisis. Russia's war of aggression against Ukraine and the war in the Middle East.

Russia is executing one of the most outrageous breaches of the international law in the United States. nation's history by invading a sovereign country and turning its back on its obligations as a permanent member of the UN Security Council. The war in the Middle East has caused immense instability and cost far too many lives. It is no longer regional or simply about the security in the region. It affects ripple worldwide. coup against Victor Yanukovych in 2014. No mention of the United States and Israel engaged in naked aggression. I guess she's campaigning for something.

Maybe she wants to head the World Bank or the IMF or she wants to succeed, Van der Leyen, or maybe she wants to run the UN, who knows? She has things in reverse. Well, she's a hopeless case. She is an incarnation of everything is wrong with the EU institution. a totally irresponsible person. She was brought in together with the alter other Baltics politicians by Fondolian because Fondoleon wanted non entities.

She wanted people whom she could dominate since she is an authoritarian dictatorial personality. So Kai Kallas, it came in and unfortunately for her, Fondolene didn't appreciate what a backstabber she was bringing in. Nonetheless, you've mentioned two outstanding points of the present day which were missing from the speech. But we want to speak about naked aggression, and my goodness, going after a sovereign state, it would happen to Hungary in 1956,

what happened to Czechoslovakia in 1968? Somehow, well, as I said, politicians tend to have very shallow memories. So I leave it at that. She has no memory. But we otherwise, particularly in the historical community, we would be remiss if we don't look back more than two weeks. Wow.

Here's Chancellor MERS two days ago, Chris, number 14. We'll be coordinating closely when it comes to Ukrainian citizens who have sought refuge in our country and will make it easier for them to return home. the efforts of the number of Ukrainian men who take refuge here is something we'll be working with Ukraine to limit, because it is crucial that these men are there to help their country. Sounds like he's going to expel Ukrainian men who have escaped Ukraine in order to avoid. avoid in order to avoid the draft. I won't mince words, Andrew.

He is a Nazi. And this is one of the tragedies of present day Europe, the very few people call out. We have been since the middle of Angela Merkel's 10-year- as chancellor. Europe has been run by the Germans. I mean, Hitler would be smiling wherever he is, with it probably down on hell, but he's smiling.

what he sees up here because Germany has taken over. Germany has the biggest party within the European People's Party. That is the CDU of which Merz is a member runs the people's, the European People's Party, which runs the parliament, which elects the commission, which installs the war mongers von der Leyen and Kallos. The Germans are calling it all. Mr. Meertz, by his befriending Zelensky for purposes of putting in German manufacturing on behalf of Ukraine, entering into military cooperation closely with Ukraine. He is a warmonger, and he is a true descendant of his father and grandfather Nazis in World War II.

He is a revisionist. Is he in danger of being replaced by whoever's the head of AFD? No chance in the world. And AFD is in its own crisis because they have a West and on East. Rital is representing the West, the dominant side. And she has been making little baby steps towards NATO and away from Russia. Let's be honest about it. I think that are those who among us who are seeing the pages of the alternative for

Dutchland are missing the subtlety which isn't so subtle. The eastern branch, which is the core population of the alternative for Dutch land, they are Russia friendly. They in their upcoming regional elections are calling for setting up exchanges of students between Germany and Russia. They are Russia friendly. The AFDI, led by Vidal, is now NATO friendly. Let's not make mistakes about this.

Let's, before we conclude, go to one of your favorite topics, President Putin. What is the pressure like on him now to bring the war to an end or to leave the scene? Enormous pressure. Leave the scene, is improbable, but that he will change direction. He is a constant politician, after all.

He just has to do what the rules of the game tell you. If everyone's going against you, then, you know, change your direction. And if he does that, the war can end to once. Every evening on state television, there are calls for the war to end quickly. Now, he cannot remain resistant to them. When you say on state television, does that mean he is aware of these calls and his government has authorized them? And if the answer to those two questions is yes, what is the purpose of that to acclimate the public to a massive crushing of Kiev, military crushing of Kiev? I believe so. And it doesn't have to watch his own television. You can watch your show.

as he probably does, because it's in, after all, your appearances with Matry Symes on The Great Game. Of course they watched that in the Kremlin. So of course they're aware of what we are saying. And our programs are going on to Rootube, where they don't have, maybe they don't have 100,000 viewers, but I think the viewers are pretty important folks. Wow, what do you think will happen

in the special military operation in the next five or six months? I think it will end. I think it will end. Certainly this war is not going to go beyond this calendar year. And it most likely will end by the Russians declaring it's over than they've won. I think they can take a page out of Donald Trump's book. All I have to do is to say that it's now a frozen conflict.

Once they've reached the Neapar River after they've taken a Dessa, which is certainly not feasible within six months. And so they have no peace treaties or what? All they have to declare is any foreign troops or installations that try to enter you with the rump Ukraine will be blown up at once. Now, that's all the problem. Wow. Good. But Dr. Oh, thank you. A fascinating conversation from my perspective, and I can tell from the perspective of the audience from the comments. So many of them have made, we've been across the board here, and I love being able to pick your brain on all these topics. Thank you, my dear. friend. We'll look forward to seeing you next week.

A great pleasure. Thank you. We have an interesting day coming up for you. If you're watching us live in 35 minutes from Tehran, Professor Muhammad Miranda, 9 o'clock Eastern, at 1 o'clock this afternoon, not sure he is where he is, but he'll be with us, Pepe Escobar. At 2.15 today, Professor Glenn Deason, at 3 o'clock, the great Phil Girardt, Judge in the Politano for Judging Freedom.