Judging Freedom - How Will this Ukraine Russia War End? w/Larry Johnson fmr CIA

Episode Date: August 15, 2023

How Will this Ukraine Russia War End? w/Larry Johnson fmr CIASee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Thank you. Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Tuesday, August 15th, 2023. Larry Johnson joins us now. Larry, always a pleasure. Thank you for sharing your time with us. You wrote a very interesting piece. I know we're going to get a little philosophical here, but I believe that our audience wants to hear that. How do wars end? Is there sort of a myth that one side wins 100% and the other side surrenders unconditionally? No, not always. And the record shows that most wars will end with a negotiated settlement, primarily because both sides are exhausted or they don't see any way out that they can win. A smaller number are settled through unconditional surrender, as we saw at the end of World War II, as we saw at the end of the American

Civil War. Note that World War I was not really an unconditional surrender, even though portrayed as such. It was really a negotiated settlement, and Germany negotiated badly on its behalf. And then there's always sort of the stalemate option that nobody can go anywhere. So my point was in assessing what's going on right now in Ukraine, I think we're headed towards this will be one of those rare, unconditional surrender moments because Ukraine has no ability to be able to force a negotiated settlement. And or if it accepts a negotiated settlement, it's going to mean that it's going to do a complete 180 on all of the things that it insists are essential, non-negotiable items. If this is an unconditional surrender, we have a lot of issues. You, Colonel McGregor, Scott Ritter, Ray McGovern, and our usual cadre have said the last thing Putin wants is to have to govern Ukraine. What would replace Zelensky that the Ukrainians can live with and Putin will accept, if not a Russian-installed government?

Well, one option I lay out is a possibility, is a parallel with what happened at the end of the Civil War. The political leadership of the Confederacy had basically collapsed. They were still being defiant, insisting they were going to continue fighting. But General Robert E. Lee recognized that while some of his troops had the desire to continue fighting, they simply did not have the means, both through logistics, ammunition, weaponry. And so he surrendered. And it was an unconditional surrender that Grant did provide some concessions, but they were not significant. So I think what you're looking at in Ukraine is the generals finally intervening at some points, and look, this slaughter of our troops is going to stop. We cannot continue to lose like this,

and Zelensky will be irrelevant, because Zelensky is a puppet in all of this anyway. He's not the political force. He simply represents the powerful money that's behind him, people like Kolomoisky. So he's not in a position to call the shots. Zeluzhny or Sursky, two of the generals, they don't necessarily get along, but one of them or some other generals we've not heard of, at least in public, could step forward and enforce a settlement with Russia. Is it fair to say that Zelensky is not only a tool of the oligarchs and whatever other political forces have brought him and sustained him in power, but he's also a tool, you know where

I'm going, of your former bosses, the Central Intelligence Agency. He may even be an asset of the CIA. Yeah, I think it's actually more likely he has a closer relationship with the Brits. But the United States and the Brits certainly share an interest in Zelensky. And I'm sure they've made some promises to him, but the history of U.S. and British intelligence agencies making promises to assets haven't always turned out so well. How aggressive are the Brits? How aggressive is MI6? I'm starting to feel that American intelligence almost believes the Brits are more aggressive.

When I asked Ray McGovern if Mossad or CIA were spying on Joe Biden in the White House, he said to me, it's more likely to be MI6. MI6 spying on the American president in his residence and the CIA not doing anything about it or not doing it itself? Do I have that right? Well, the reason the CIA might not be doing anything about it is it would be unaware of it. If the intelligence service is good, it is able to collect that intelligence without giving up what it's doing. And the British have a much longer tradition of using intelligence operations. Candidly, the United States was sort of a student at the knee

of that instructor coming into World War II. The United States didn't really have a history of using intelligence officers in an organized fashion. So it became formalized, institutionalized in the aftermath of World War II and reflected heavily a British influence. Bringing us back to where we started, if the war were to end because Ukrainian generals decide this is just a slaughter, we can't go on anymore, and if President Zelensky, fearful of his political future and not ready to go to Paris or Miami or wherever his other homes are, resisted that, would the CIA step in? Would it be involved in the circumstances and terms of a surrender? No, it's gonna, the CIA would have very limited influence on that, nothing else, it'd be pressing Ukraine

not to do that and threatening, we'll withdraw our support, we'll withdraw our aid. And I think when Ukraine gets to that point, they won't care about that. The agency's influence in the past has been closely tied with what the Brits have done. It's really been a symbiotic relationship. We're not acting independent of the Brits.

And the British connection with the Bandarite elements in Ukraine go back to the end of World War II. And the British settled far more Ukrainians in the UK than the United States did in this country. The other day, you and Ray McGovern and Colonel McGregor and I saw a photograph of a Ukraine, I guess, a squadron, or Ukraine military. There appeared to be about a dozen of the most, at the most. They had a Ukrainian flag and a Nazi flag with a Nazi swastika on it. A, were you surprised? B, do you know who the hell they were? C, why on earth would they be doing that?

Now, that's actually a fairly old fault that came out about a year and a half ago. It's members of the Azov Battalion. So this glorification of the Nazis has been a part of a minority of Ukraine's population in the West. Everybody to the west of the Dnieper River going over towards the Polish border. They have a history. Part of it was tied into Catholicism as well. The anger of the Catholics against the Eastern Orthodox Church that was associated with the Soviet Union and with Russia. So this legacy of celebrating all things Nazis has been passed down from grandfather to father to son to grandson. The videos were pretty prevalent all over the Internet two, three years ago.

YouTube's taken a lot of them down. But you could see annual celebrations. Remember, it was 1942, 43, when von Wachter, the Nazi governor general, recommended creating an SS battalion out of Ukrainian volunteers, and that was done. So you had Ukrainians that were part of not just the German army. They were part of the Nazi SF, which was reflected a higher level of ideological commitment. Does this, I don't want to get too deep into it, but does this variant of Nazism have the racism and anti-Semitism that the German Nazism had? No, absolutely. In fact, there are several videos of one of the leading members of ASOF going around targeting homosexuals, targeting gypsies, beating them up on the streets.

You know, the same kind of thing you saw with Hitler's crows. Surely President Zelensky himself raised as a Jew. I don't know if he practices, but he's culturally Jewish. He must be aware of this. Yeah, but, you know, this is, Judge, when you look at the history in that part of the world, I mean, go back to World War II, there were several Jewish people who directly collaborated with the Nazis. I mean, even George Soros' father

reportedly collaborated with the Nazis back in World War II. That's, you know, sort of how they escaped the Holocaust. You had Jewish leaders that were running major ghettos like the Lutz ghetto that all the Jews ended up being exterminated there, including the guy who thought he was occurring in favor with the Germans by running the place. And finally, they ended up executing him as well. I want to show you President Zelensky. I won't say ranting, but reporting, whatever you want to call it, you can characterize it as you see fit on corruption in Ukraine. It's almost like Claude Rains and Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca. There's gambling here? I'm shocked. took cryptocurrency, that's the only difference. The cynicism is the same everywhere. Illicit enrichment, legalization of illegally obtained funds, illegal benefit, illegal transportation

of persons liable for military service across the border. Our decisions are the following. We are dismissing all regional military commissars. Is he the head of the corruption? I thought you were going to show me a video of Joe Biden decrying anybody that was involved with selling foreign influence. Yeah, this is the case. All we talked about was the weather. Hunter called me from Kiev to ask me about the weather in D.C.

So here's Zelensky, who's an expert in the corruption. I mean, the reports about his, the wealth he skimmed off with Holmes in several locations around the world, including Miami Beach. So he's an expert in corruption. I think actually what he's doing here is pretty dangerous because everybody knows that he's on the take and that other people are on the take, but those who are now being victimized, being used as examples for punishment, I bet you they have friends and relatives that will be seeking revenge. And because, you know, nothing the criminals hate more is hypocrisy. And this kind of hypocrisy from Zelensky is truly galling. Let me show you President Zelensky attempting to be serious, acting as if it's a foregone conclusion that Crimea will be returned to Ukrainian jurisdiction.

You have argued and argued persuasively World War Three will occur before that happens. But right there he is. Tell me what you think. Today, I held a meeting on the content of our return policy, specifically regarding Crimea and its reintegration. It is obvious that after the liberation of Crimea from occupation, economic opportunities, personal security for people and a sense of real freedom, which has not been there since 2014, will return there. But all of this should not be just abstract. Every detail of the de-occupation of Crimea should have a specific meaning. How exactly normal life returns, what exactly this means for Crimea and for all our people, this should be clear to everyone.

Step by step, we are making the de-occupation of Crimea more and more achievable and well thought out. Who but the most incredibly naive could take that seriously, Larry? I guess his next subject was to talk about the Ukrainian space program and its plans to land on Venus. I mean, there's a greater chance of that happening than Ukraine retaking Crimea. They simply do not have the military force. They're entirely dependent upon the West for financial and military aid and ammunition and intelligence. Other than that, they're a pretty powerful unit. So it's just delusional.

And this is reminiscent, if you will, of Hitler and his bunker in the final days. The Russians are closing in and he's directing armies to go hither and yon, armies that don't exist. And that's what Zelensky is doing here. How much longer do you think Zelensky and his pretense of directing military activity will go on unimpeded. That is, before his senior generals say, enough's enough. I'm not sending my guys into a meat grinder anymore. I think he's got another four or five weeks tops, because as the fall rains come in,

and it appears that this is going to be a much tougher winter than last winter, the level of slaughter that they've endured is not going to be a much tougher winter than last winter, the level of slaughter that they've endured is not going to sit well with them. And so at that point, what you're looking at is a full mobilization, forced, coerced mobilization, and then you've got to figure out where to train those troops, and then you've got to figure out how you're going to cobble together another offensive without actually having the means to succeed. It's the same situation they're in right now.

Russia is not going to get weaker over the next six months. Ukraine is. General Zeluzhny, the commander, and his colleague, who commands another part of the military, the two that don't get along, but they're the two senior people, decide that enough is enough. Will the CIA, from its surveillance, know that they have made that decision before it is put into effect, and will they do anything about it? I'm sure they will learn about it in advance. And I'm sure they will try to disrupt it. But let's remember the other player on the field here is Russia.

Russia has far better human intelligence assets in the Ukrainian army than the CIA does. I'd make that case. One, because of language. One, because of history. Several of the officers, especially the senior officers, have gone through Russian military academies. So just several of the senior Ukrainian military officers are graduates of, say, Russia's West Point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is in some ways sort of similar to what happened in the American Civil War, where you had people fighting on either side who had been classmates together.

So Zeluzhny and Sursky, I believe, both have that kind of experience with the Russian military. And I never underestimate the power of the Russian intelligence service to go out and recruit folks. I want to read for you a portion of an op-ed from yesterday's Wall Street Journal written by your former neighbor and my former Fox News colleague, John Bolton. It's almost inconceivable that Donald Trump was advised by John Bolton, but we know he was the national security advisor to President Trump, and he was the acting UN ambassador, I think, for a year or two under President George W. Bush. But here's what he said. The administration's timid, haphazard approach to aid has fractured U.S. public support. Mr. Biden has compounded this problem with his insistence that the war is about Wilsonian abstractions of democracy

versus authoritarianism. Theories about price caps and Russian oil have failed, and Western sanctions generally remain piecemeal and seriously unenforced. Well, he's right about the sanctions not failing. But as I read this, I read this. He's saying it's too little too late. We should have gone in there full force 18 months ago. No, very true. But it's also when you read through it and understand Bolton, he's admitting that he was wrong, which is shocking. He'll never admit that he's wrong, but he always will lay it off on somebody else.

But number one, he's acknowledging that public support for the war in Ukraine and the United States has dissipated. A majority, approaching 60 percent, are now opposed to it, opposed to continued funding. The sanctions haven't worked. Duh. Some of us pointed that out at the beginning, but give Bolton credit. He's coming around to it. The problem is, as you go on in that article,

he basically is like pushing for the start of a nuclear war. And at that point, you realize, I think his mustache is getting in the way of the oxygen flow to his brain. I mean, John Bolton, a friend of mine, he makes Lindsey Graham sound like you. I mean, he is just over, over, over the top with wanting to draw blood.

You mentioned the American disenchantment. Now, this is about 10 days old, but it's my friend and former colleague, Martha McCallum, interrogating Admiral Kirby. And she begins by pointing out the growing American disenchantment with the support for the war. Before you run it, Gary, I am going to ask you when this is over, how much we've spent. Joe Biden seems to indicate he needs another $24 billion. How much of that $113 billion has he spent? We can't get a straight answer from anybody, can we? No, no. All right. Here's here's the clip of Admiral Kirby with

Martha McCallum. This poll says 51 percent of the U.S. say of those polled has the U.S. has done enough to stop Russian military actions in Ukraine. 48 percent say that we should do more. Those numbers have moved over the past few months, John, in the direction of we've done enough to help. Well, look, I think, you know, sure, there's lots of people all over the world that want this war to end. And we understand that. Heck, the Ukrainian people want it to end. They want it to end more than anybody. They'd love to see this war over and have their cities not be bombed and their children not taken away and abducted. We all want to see it end. But I also think that the American people understand

what's at stake here. It's bigger than just Ukrainian sovereignty, although that is first and foremost what it's about. It's about Mr. Putin. It's about sending a strong message to Russia that they can't just take another nation by force. And if he succeeds, Martha, I think American people, the American people understand that if we just walk away from this and Putin is able to subjugate Ukraine, where does it stop then? And if you think that the cost to the United States has been high in supporting Ukraine, think about what the cost would be in blood and in treasure if Mr. Putin feels empowered to go ahead and attack NATO's eastern flank. Then we're in it, and we're in it in a big way. I think the American people understand what's at stake here. Does this

admiral even understand the basics? Putin is going to attack NATO's eastern flank. He's making the domino argument, the failed domino argument from the Vietnam years. Yeah. And he has trouble with math. If you look at the facts, the United States in 18 months has put more money and weapons and material into Ukraine than we did in Afghanistan over almost 20 year period. Number one. Number two, the amount of money we're spending there, it's not going, it's disappearing and there there is no inspector general process to monitor where that's going so you've got weapons going out into the black market probably going to wind up in places like Africa

we know they're winding up in the hands of the Mexican drug cartel so you know he can keep up the happy talk but since that interview from five six days ago the numbers of people who said we should not do more, we've done enough. It's grown. It's not diminished. That's going to continue to grow. And there's going to come that point where the members of Congress are going to be looking at an election in about 14 months, 15 months, are going to say, oh, wait a second. I'm not going to continue to go pour money into this rat hole. How can we not know how much money the federal government has spent of that $113 billion blank check that Mrs. Soposy and Chuck Schumer gave the president?

Look, even the Pentagon doesn't know how much money it spent. They keep going, oh, look what we found. We found some more money that we thought we had spent and we didn't. The concept of accountability in Washington, it's a foreign idea. It has no residence. They've never seen it. They wouldn't recognize it. It would be as if aliens landed to Mars. They'd go, what's that? So the concept of accountability, nobody believes in it because if they did believe in it, actually the American people would have a pretty good government. But this lack of accountability, it's not just members of the executive branch, it's in the legislative branch as well. And to a lesser extent, the judicial branch.

So you've got this endemic corruption and it just, it keeps feeding itself because nobody wants to get off that merry-go-round as long as they're drawing a paycheck. Larry Johnson, always a pleasure, my dear friend. We have time, we'll do another round table with Ray McGovern at the end of the week, but thank you very much for joining us. Thank you, Judge. If you like what you saw, like and subscribe and tell a friend. We're up to 183,000 subscribers. Our goal is 200,000 by Labor Day.

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