Judging Freedom - In Ukraine Bakhmut Still up for Grabs - Ray McGovern fmr CIA

Episode Date: May 15, 2023

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Hi everyone, Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Monday, May 15th, 2023. It's about 11 o'clock in the morning here on the east coast of the United States. Ray McGovern joins us for our regular weekly get-together. Ray, always a pleasure. Thank you for joining us. Most welcome. Over the weekend, the Washington Post released a piece which claims that Yevgeny Prokgozhin, the head of the Wagner Group, offered to give, I guess what would be treason, Russian troop locations to Ukraine officials in return for Ukraine withdrawing from Bakhmut. So two questions. One, is this even believable?

And two, perhaps a bigger picture, why do these things keep coming out? Why is the Washington Post keeps releasing these things? Do they have a secret stash of documents that this kid Jack Teixeira revealed or released and they just keep drip, drip, dripping them out? Well, in answer to your first question, the answer is, is it believable? No. Okay. Now, does the Washington Post have a direct line into Langley to get this kind of garbage? The answer to that is yes. The interview, the text of which the Washington Post posted on Saturday, the whole

text of Zelensky made by all the bigwigs at the Washington Post on the Kremlin, where Zelensky, why they chose to publish that whole thing is really interesting, because Zelensky sounds like he's on some kind of drug. He's totally all over the place. And, you know, it almost seems that those in the post who are willing to hold him up to ridicule and say, so this is the guy? This is the guy that wants to attack Russia? This is the guy that wants these long-range missiles? Well, here's, listen to him for a while. It's incredible. I printed the whole thing out like I usually do.

It's 23 pages, but it's worth it. The guy is deranged. You know, his general is resolutionally well uh zielinski is delusionally and it shows through all this stuff so the answer is i have to agree with you i read it at your uh suggestion uh and it is it is truly bizarre and weird, the things that he says in there. I mean, some of it is almost treasonous by their standards. Some of it just doesn't make any sense. And I wonder who's running the ship there.

If he's taking some sort of medication to calm his nerves, which is loosening his tongue, what are they gaining by this? Well, the story, I believe, is why the Washington Post would publish this kind of thing, in addition to that main story a few days ago that we know that Zelensky wanted to attack inside Russia, that he was talking about this behind our backs, so to speak. Behind whose backs? Behind Victoria Nuland's back? I don't know. I mean.

That's probably what he's talking about. But yet in this interview, he denied that he wanted to do that or he didn't want to talk about it. Well, you know, that's what I mean. It's smoke and mirrors. And this business about pre-Goshen is more smoke and mirrors. I mean, the whole thing is ludicrous on its face. I mean, he would be in Siberia now. I mean, anybody try to tell me that the Russians don't know about all this stuff if it's true?

Of course they do. Why do they let him out there? Well, I don't know. I don't know why they let him rant and rave, but it's part, I think, of this, you know, this smoke and mirrors type of thing where you always get before a major onslaught of war, and I think that's what we're in for now. Here's Progozhin ranting and raving.

We'll comment on it, and then we'll see Progozhin issuing the same kind of warning, but in very measured tones. First, the ranting and raving of about three weeks. We lack ammunition, 70 percent. Shai Gu, Gerasimov, where is the f***ing ammunition? Look at them, s***. F***ing s***. Look at them, b******t! B******t! If you give the norm of ammunition,

they are five times less. They came here as volunteers and are dying for you to eat in your red-wooded offices. Take that into account. defense and the head of the Russian military, and he purports to be ranting and raving, yelling and screaming, we don't have enough ammunition. The reason these bodies are behind us is because they couldn't defend themselves. You want more dead Russians, hang on to the ammunition. You want more dead Ukrainians, give us the ammunition. That's basically what he says.

Is that a way, a rational way to speak to Vladimir Putin? No, it's not. To Shoigu and Gerasimov? Yeah, you know, the whole thing, in my view, is smoke and mirrors. In other words, if you want to deceive the Ukrainians, or if you want to give the Western forces the notion that, you know, they can still succeed in this, play up the fact that the Wagner Group is running out of ammunition. Well, that's what April Haynes said three months ago. The Russians are running out of ammunition. Guess what?

Russians aren't running out of ammunition. NATO forces are. So the whole thing, I just, I can't explain why he's allowed to take on Shoigu and Gerasimov. There's got to be some sort of play there, but the net effect of this is to encourage people to think, well, look, the Russians are in disarray. Let's go. And that ain't going to work. All right. here he is a lot calmer talking about deserting or fleeing or leaving Bakhmut now that all of it but just 20 buildings has been captured by the Russians. Take a listen. И Бахмут будет полностью взят. Но взятие Бахмута Российской Федерации не дает ничего. Потому что фланги сыпятся, фронт проваливается.

И попытки Министерства обороны в информационном поле каким-то образом сгладить ситуацию, она приводит и приведет к глобальной трагедии для России. Поэтому надо прекратить немедленно врать. Если вы убежали, выстраивайте новые линии обороны. It doesn't paint a very good picture of the status of Russian forces in Bakhmut, even though, according to him, they've taken all but about 20 buildings. He even calls into question why all this death over this city? What's the significance, quote, to the Russian Federation of this one town? What's with this guy? Are we paying too much attention to him, or is he a window into Kremlin thinking? He's a window into smoke and mirrors. Now, if you want to give the Ukrainians

the idea that they can attack what's left of Bakhmut, and indeed they have, and draw them into where they get obliterated by Russian forces. This is a neat way to do it, you know. Pretend you're running out of ammunition. Pretend you're running out of ideas to save Bakhmut. It's all a big deception operation. As I say, what we're going to see is the real situation on the ground within the next few weeks, and it will not be good for Pogosian or anybody else. I mean, it would be okay for the Russians and Prokosin, but certainly not for our friends, the Ukrainian forces. I would say Victoria Nuland's friends, the forces there.

You know, one thing is interesting, and that is that Andrew, Jacob Sullivan has met with the Chinese, actually a Chinese Politburo member, head of its Foreign Affairs Commission in Vienna for two days last week. What's that all about? Nobody says. But, you know, this is Jacob Sullivan. Lincoln, on the other hand, is doing just the opposite. He's meeting with the British foreign minister. And what are the Brits doing?

They're supplying the red line type equipment that can reach 150 miles. You know, 150 miles. That's a red line. Okay. And they're also, and this is really disgusting. What do you mean when you say red line, meaning 150 miles into Moscow, which would be crossing a red line in Putin's mind? Yeah. The Russians have made it clear that if you put offensive missiles in Ukraine that go more than the ones that we have now, which are about 60 miles, the HIMARS, okay, that is a red line, because that could reach not only Moscow, but some of the ICBM force in Western Russia. So this is serious stuff. So what do the Brits do? They not only supply that kind of thing weeks ago, since they already used them two days ago, okay, to hit where? Luhansk,

the city of Luhansk, where there's no really military formations. It's against civilians in Luhansk. It's almost as though they're trying to provoke the Russians into them. The other thing, and this is the real despicable thing, is the depleted uranium. We know what that does. We've seen all the birth defects in Fallujah. We've seen them in Yugoslavia, for God's sake. So here's the question, you know, this stuff is going in to Ukraine now from the British. It will poison some of those fertile fields in Ukraine for, I don't know what the half-life is, but it's longer than I'm going to live, okay? Now, who cares more about what happens to Ukraine? The British and our friends and us or Putin? And what's Putin going to do? If he's sincere in saying, look, these are our Slavic

brothers. We don't want to poison their land. We're going to react to this. I suspect this may be part of the Russian reaction. The last thing I'll add is simply, you know that puzzle, where's Waldo? You look at the puzzle, where's Zelensky? He hasn't been in Kiev since that attempt on the Kremlin. He's been in every other Western European capital. He's been with the Pope, you know. I looked at those photos with Zelensky and the Pope, and I thought of that old joke where the guy says,

well, who's that guy in the white with Zelensky? Here he is. Here's Zelensky and Pope Francis exchanging gifts. God bless you, thank you, pray for me don't forget it, the gift that was exchanged was an image of the Madonna which is supposedly bulletproof I don't know, I don't know what to

make of all this, except that he is trying to go around Europe, which is where he is now. He's not in Kiev as we speak, attempting to build up support for himself. He managed to get 3 billion euros or equipment worth 3 billion euros out of the Germans. This is their first major cash.

So you said this last week. What started out as a border dispute is morphing into a dispute which to Putin is existential and which will soon involve all of Europe. Fair to say? Yes. And the question is how he will react. Now, he's been very measured. How they will choose to react to the assassination attempt.

Now, were they really thought that they could kill him in the Senate office building where sometimes he sleeps is another question. But they fired those drones over the Kremlin, right? That's a big black eye. The Russians have said we're going to retaliate in time, in kind at a time of our own choosing. So will Zelensky go back to Kiev? I mean, it's been 10 days, Judge, you know, will he form a government in exile in London like that's been done before, right? It's really going to be interesting to see if Zelensky has the temerity to go back to Kiev where chances are, you know,

you couldn't sell him any more life insurance for sure. Have you rethought the significance of the drones exploding over the Kremlin? I mean, do you actually think that this was a serious assassination attempt or something else, either to galvanize Russian public support behind President Putin or galvanize Ukrainian public support behind President Zelensky? Well, we know that Zelensky, we know that the Ukrainians did this just three days after that big interview that Zelensky gave, where he said, I'm not, you know, I wouldn't approve anything like this. And we know that the Washington Post now, about seven days later, said, well, yeah, yeah, we know from secret documents, that's precisely what Zelensky wants to do. He wants to make war on Russia.

So what's his game and how will Putin react? Well, as I say, Putin has the upper hand here. He's in no hurry. But there does seem to be more likelihood now that he'll do something very specific. I would wager maybe against the British as well as against Zelensky if Zelensky ever comes back to Ukraine. Meanwhile, the longer Zelensky stays away from home, the more embarrassing it is. Who's really winning this war? What's going to happen when the spring offensive, so to speak, finally gets underway. I want to get back to the allegation, which you say is hogwash, in the Washington Post

of Prokosian offering to provide troop information to the Ukrainians in return for leaving Bakhmut. So I have a couple of questions. Would the CIA have fed something like that to the Washington Post, and would the Washington Post have published it uncritically, that is, without any examination of the CIA's sources for it? Yes, and yes. In other words, yeah, I mean, a whole business about blowing up a pipeline, for example. CIA tells this cockamamie story to the Washington Post, and they publish it, and the British and the Germans publish it simultaneously, for God's sake. So you use the word hogwash. I wouldn't be so specific. I would say male bovine excrement is what we say in the Bronx. All right.

Second question, Mr. Bronx. Is it characteristic or normal for wartime enemies, combatants, to have a line of communication between them. Yes. Yeah. Now, whether Prigozhin would be able to do that on his own without the KGB or its successor and other Russian forces learning of it, the chance of that is minimal.

But when you're at war, yeah, you extend these things. Alan Dulles did that from Geneva during World War II. You stay in touch with people that you think you might be able to influence or might be able to give you some useful information. But Prokosian is unlikely to be the Kremlin's man for communicating with the head of Ukraine intelligence. I would rule that out. Because he's such a wild card. He's a loose cannon. And, you know, I have to compliment his thespian abilities. Yeah. I mean, those two clips that you showed, man, he's a terrific, he's almost as good as Zelensky, for God's sake.

You know, he's a matinee idol. Let's face it. He can do whatever he wants to do this, other than my guess that he's just spreading doubt and spreading reasons for the Ukrainians that they, well, maybe they could, maybe there's so much disarray in Moscow that we can succeed. You know, that would be a trap. Let me ask you about Wagner. Is it truly like Blackwater? Is it truly an outside mercenary group, or is it created, organized, managed, funded by the FSB, the Russian Military Intelligence, and it just looks like it's an outside group? Right. Well, it's funded and it was established by the GRU, the Russian military intelligence place.

And we know that's how it got legs. And one has to assume that they're very much in touch. And that's what leads me to conclude that what Preclusion is allowed to do is simply to spread doubt, to say, oh, they're in disarray. Avril Haines said the Russians are having real morale problems and they're running out of ammunition. She's the head of national intelligence. You need something to support that, that delusionary conclusion. If the Washington Post report were true and Prokofiev had offered to give away military secrets in return for some temporary military

advantage. Wouldn't Russian intelligence know that he had made such an offer? Yes. Know that about it. Okay. One of the questions that the Washington Post editors, and you're right, it was all their senior people meeting with him in his office in keeve a lot of people from dc were there uh he even begs them that one point he begs them to stop asking him questions and they say no no we just have a few more and you know what that means more and more and more um but they said to him were you surprised to learn? First of all, he's angry that he learned about the Jack to share documents by reading about it, that they that the American government didn't tell him about ahead of time. Then they asked, are you angry to learn that they're spying on you, that they're listening to your conversations?

And he either shrewdly or naively says, I'm not so sure they're listening. Why would he say that? so sure they're listening. Why would he say that? He knows they're listening. Well, I mean, who's listening? You don't have to listen to a direct line from Victoria Noland or the people that are stoking this war. You have direct contact with them through various people in Kiev. So, you know, it's hard to explain why Zelensky would answer this way. One possible explanation is he was feeling pretty high, and he made no sense in many other respects. Why would we think he'd make

sense in this respect? Ray McGovern, always a pleasure, my dear friend. Thank you so much for speaking with us today. All the best. Okay, you too. More as we get it. Judge Napolitano for judging freedom.