Judging Freedom - INTEL Round Table: Johnson & McGovern - Weekly Wrap Up

Episode Date: May 25, 2024

INTEL Round Table: Johnson & McGovern - Weekly Wrap UpSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Thank you. Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Friday, May 24th, 2024. It's the end of the day. It's the end of the week. We have a three-day holiday weekend coming up here in the U.S. It's time for everybody's favorite, the Intelligence Community Roundtable with my dear friends and colleagues, Larry Johnson and Ray McGovern. is subject, came out with a rather dramatic ruling which reinforced its preliminary ruling of last January that the Israelis should not engage in genocide, and this time ordered them to cease their engaging in genocide and expressly told them to stop the invasion of Rafah. Now, we know where this is going to go. It goes to the Security Council of the United Nations, and the U.S. will, of course, veto it. But this has to be an enormous black eye for Israel, and a continued perception of Israel as isolated in the international community. Before we start, here is the chief judge of the court.

It's a long clip. We edited it. Chris edited it down to 60 seconds, explaining the core, the guts of the court's ruling earlier today in Brussels. I shall now read out the operative part of the order. For these reasons, the Court, by 13 votes to 2, reaffirms the provisional measures indicated in its Orders of 26 January 2024 and March 28, 2024, which should be immediately and effectively implemented. Two, indicates the following provisional measures. The State of Israel shall, in conformity with its obligations under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, and in view of the worsening conditions of life faced by civilians in the Rafah governorate. A by 13 votes to 2.

Immediately halt its military offensive and any other action in the Rafah governorate which may inflict on the Palestinian group in Gaza conditions of life that would bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part. Coming, Larry, within 10 days of the announcement by the Prosecutor General of the International Criminal Court that he would seek indictments and arrest warrants against Prime Minister Netanyahu, Defense Minister Gallant, and three Hamas leaders, and followed up earlier today, as Ray points out, by the official spokesperson for the Chancellor of Germany, if Netanyahu sets foot in Germany, he will be arrested once the arrest warrant is issued. How do you view this decision today with respect to

Israel and its relationship to the rest of the world? Sets up a very ironic situation. Israel came into being thanks to a vote by the United Nations General Assembly. Now, it is true that the Security Council is likely to have a U.S. veto of any action to enforce this ICJ ruling, but they can still take it to the General Assembly. And the General Assembly can vote to expel Israel for failing to comply with a judgment of the ICJ. So, you know, that would be the ultimate irony, that Israel would be forced out. And frankly, the Israeli ambassador to the UN, this Gildan character.

He's a madman. Yeah, he's one of the most obnoxious, obscene, disgusting individuals I've ever come across. And he doesn't, you know, he gets up every morning figuring out a new way to insult the other members of the UN. So, you know, they would happily, you know, vote to expel the Israelis, particularly with him as the face of Israel. Ray, how significant is it that Germany announced if the arrest warrants are issued,

we'll execute them if these people come into our jurisdiction. Well, I was shocked, Judge. Here is the spokesperson for Olaf Scholz, the German chancellor, saying, look, we abide by the law. The law is that if an indictment is served, an arrest warrant, then if Netanyahu comes here, yeah, we will arrest him. My God. There are changes coming. Okay. Big changes. And the fracturing of the alliance in Europe with the United States is in full swing. Now, Norway had already said that, that they would arrest Netanyahu. So as Larry points out, this is a really big black eye. Will the U.S. veto this kind of thing in the Security Council?

It probably will, but this United for Peace declaration from the General Assembly means a hell of a lot. Now, with respect to prosecutions, I asked my friend Frank Boyle, a professor of law at the University of Chicago, I asked him earlier today, you got any comments? Send me some links of what you said, because this has been around for about 20 hours now. So he says, Frank, I've got lots of comments. Google me and you won't find any. But here's one. It was in Arabic.

The UAE interviewed him for about 10 minutes. When you say Google me and you won't find any, were his comments taken down? No, they just don't run them. They have this algorithm that says, you know, look, this guy, Frank Boyle from Chicago, just like this McGovern from the Bronx, put him at the bottom of the pile, all right? Well, tell Professor Boyle to call Chris. We'll put him on the air. Larry, they just don't like, hey, they don't like the Irish. Well, there once was a very great Irish-American law professor at Fordham named

McGovern, whose books we as law students all used and studied, even though I went to the other Irish Catholic law school, the one in South Bend, Indiana, called Notre Dame. But Larry, thank you very much for your interesting observation that I had not even thought about, about the UN being the very reason, the legal linchpin for the creation of the nation of Israel and the power of the General Assembly to expel Israel. The vote on the court, Larry and Ray, was 13 to 2. The American judge, not appointed by Joe Biden, voted with the majority. Is there any reason to believe, I'll ask each of you this question, Larry first, Is there any reason to believe that this decision was corrupt, not based on evidence, a political decision? I mean, they examined this for six months

because their original preliminary decision, five months, came down in January. Larry? Yeah. Judge, this was evidence that even Helen Keller could see. Okay. Yeah, definitely. It was the correct decision. It's a stain. I can understand the Israeli judge, you know, not wanting to go along with the vote. But I forget the other country. The other country that sided with israel is an irrelevancy it's it's i think uganda uh which for some reason always sides uh with israel well i think that the judge the woman who's a judge from

uganda has three young uh teenagers at harvard university and doesn't want anything bad to happen to them. This is a joke. I make a joke. Right, right, right. Well, look, will these two judicial decisions, if they decide to indict and issue arrest warrants, and this one today, put economic pressure on other countries not to do business with Israel. Will Bibi be hurt in his pocketbook, Ray McGovern? Yes, he will. There are all manner of things that can happen. I mean, it happened before with South

Africa. And ideally, or ironically, South Africa is the power behind all this. So besides the black eye, despite the demeaning of Israel, you have very practical measures that can be undertaken, even if the U.S. in its wisdom vetoes the resolution to comply with what the General Assembly has said or what the International Court of Justice has said. So this is a big deal. Now, it also shows that this rules-based international system has fallen completely apart. To their credit, South Africa, China, Russia, most countries in this world still place considerable store by the old system of international relations and law. The UN and the UN, of course, has these bodies that are finally acting in a way consonant with international law. So Israel is a pariah now today at this point, as it has never been before.

They will not relent, but the reactions from law-abiding and respecters of international law can be very significant. I received an email from a person that I admire and trust with deep roots in the military and intelligence community around the world. And that person received an email from another person in the intelligence community that I'm going to read. It's not that long. I am following every day a wide spectrum of Israeli right-wing media outlets. I do it for a few reasons. One, they are consistent. Two, they are the rulers of the Jewish cosmos, they are consistent. Two, they are the rulers of the Jewish cosmos, hence more relevant. Three, they aren't shy about their plans for the region and the rest of the world. Today, I listened to an extensive interview with an IDF ex-intelligence

officer. His position was clear. We are, he said, aiming towards a world war. Israel, therefore, shouldn't stop itself from implementing some of the most radical measures because its actions will be measured retroactively in the context of the brutal world conflict to come. Then he expresses his opinion, the author of this piece. That type of thought is, of course, as rational and consistent as it is barbarian and disgusting. It actually unveils where Netanyahu and company are leading us and explains the treacherous role of Biden in facilitating this unfolding disaster. Does this make sense to you, Larry Johnson? Yes, it does. We've entered the world of religious zealotry. I'm not talking about people who are observant Christians, Jews,

or Muslims. I'm talking about the zealots who take the religious principles in those various religions and take them to an extreme where in that extreme there is no compromise with anyone or anything. Their way is the only correct way. And a project I've got on my desk to do, I haven't done it yet, is to lay out and do the comparison of the end of times beliefs of Christians, and they get divided between the Catholics and the evangelicals, between the Jews on the ultra-Orthodox, and between the Muslims. Because they each have three different views of how the world is. And my point is, can't all be right.

And yet, each of them pursuing that, they're willing to set the world on fire to achieve what they believe is, in the Christian case, the return of Jesus. In the Jewish case, the return of the Messiah. And in the Muslim case, it's the return of both the prophet and the Messiah. So, I mean, you know, you've got different scenarios here. But yeah, it is, once we enter that world of zealotry, we're past reason and into pure emotion. Ray, Alistair Crook says that there are actually two Israels. One is the liberal, economic powerhouse, pro-personal liberty, acceptance of gay rights, sort of live and let live. And the other is a theocracy. And the theocracy now controls the government. And the theocracy wants this war to go on and on and on. Do you agree? Of course, I always agree with Alistair, but I would add

that the theocracy is really partly a disguise for pure racism, for pure willingness to do away with a whole race, with a whole people. Genocide is the word, right? Now, you have Netanyahu, for example, quoting Hebrew scriptures, Amalek. Okay, what happened there? The Jewish rulers were not fierce enough. They let some of the women and babies escaped being killed. And so lately, Netanyahu, who I doubt is a fervent observer, has been playing on that and said the real, real danger here is to let any of them live. OK, that was what Yahweh said was really bad. So they play on this stuff. And, you know, there may be a liberal voice within Israel.

I'm sure Alistair knows what he's talking about. But if you're talking 80-20, it's the 80 that's in power. And, you know, this is not going to come to a good end for Israel, because the whole world has made Israel now a pariah. And will they stop? There's no indication that they'll stop. And they have nuclear weapons, of course. So this is a real imbroglio, and Joe Biden can stop it with a telephone call, and he won't do it. Larry, some of the members of the Prime Minister's war cabinet have referred to what Israel is doing in Gaza as mowing the grass or mowing the lawn, slaughtering everybody and destroying everything. Do you think that Bibi Netanyahu believes that? Or do you think he says it just to keep his coalition together?

Or doesn't it matter whether he believes it because he's doing it? I think he absolutely believes it. You know, he's sort of the, let's call him the 21st century version of John Chivington. Remember, he was a Methodist pastor, and he was also in the U.S. Army. And when it came to slaughtering Native Americans, he said, knits make lice. That's why he's willing to kill children and women. So here we have a modern 21st century version of Chivington, except Netanyahu's not a Methodist minister like Chivington was. Wow. Let's transition, Larry, to your piece this morning. You have argued and argued persuasively in that piece, which is on your website, Sonar 21. No matter what the U.S. does to arm Ukraine, there is no emphasis, no path to victory. Why do you say that? On every measure that you can take with respect to military capabilities of Ukraine, they are at a complete and irreversible disadvantage. There's no amount of weaponry the United States can send. And what we're talking about,

one of the points I've raised in my piece, is you've got so many people in the Biden administration that are talking about inflicting violence on Russia. And yet I bet not a one of them have ever actually been in a physical fight where they've actually had to hit somebody. And so we've got different levels of violence. And you've got to figure out what the violence is being used for. If you go out and light off a bunch of fireworks, that's violent. But you can observe it, nothing happens. Or if you go kill a bunch of civilians, let's say you line up attack them and you launch attack them into Russia, you kill a bunch of civilians, it does not change a thing in terms of Russia's ability as a military to deliver force and to attack assets in Ukraine. And it's like, you know, you can punch the wall,

you're going to hurt yourself and maybe put a dent in the wall. You can sucker punch somebody when they don't expect it. Or if you're actually in a self-defense situation, you can use a punch to take the person down. And that's the point. You use violence to achieve a particular objective. And this is what the U.S. Congress is not asking. And frankly, it's not even what the Ukrainians are asking. They want to use violence against the Russians, but just to use violence against the Russians because we hate the Russians. Well, that's idiotic. They're not using the violence in a way like what Russia's doing. Yeah, they're bombing thermal power plants and hydroelectric power plants and coal-fired power plants. They're destroying electrical infrastructure

because their objective is to turn the lights out in Ukraine. That's one use of military force. Use military force to take out fixed-wing aircraft. Use military force to destroy tanks. You use it to disrupt their lines of communication, ability to resupply. All of that carries a purpose. What Ukraine and the U.S. Congress are talking about now is how do we give them more weapons that they can just go hurt Russia with? But it doesn't hurt Russia in terms of its ability to prosecute the world. Chris, just to raise the blood pressure of my dear two friends here, can you play those two clips of Mrs. Newland? I think they're numbers five and six.

They need to be able to stop these Russian attacks that are coming from bases inside Russia. So I think there's also a question of whether we, the United States and our allies ought to give them more help in hitting Russian bases, which heretofore we've not been willing to do. I think if the attacks are coming directly from over the line in Russia, that those bases ought to be fair game, whether they are where missiles are being launched from or where they are, where troops are being supplied from. I think it's time for that because Russia has obviously escalated this war, including, as you said at the beginning, attacking Russia's second city, Kharkiv, which is not on the front lines and trying to decimate it without ever having to put a boot on the ground. So I think it is time to give the Ukrainians more help hitting these bases inside Russia.

McGregor says she's nothing but a committed ideologue and not even worth listening to or responding to. I think he wasn't crazy that I played the clip for him. Well, Judge, you not only have Nuland, you have Cameron, a foreign minister in Britain. You have Macron in France. You have Lindsey Graham, but then you also have Mike Johnson, for God's sake, Speaker of the House. All of them are delusional. Let's give them a favorable appraisal here. They know what's going on, okay? And that's why it's so important to have this kind of forum to discuss these things. Larry and I were on another forum, the Schiller Institute ran this morning with Graham Fuller, another alumnus of the agency, where we're explaining what's really

going on. And what's really going on is completely different from what Americans believe and what our leaders believe. I'll just say one more thing, that about a year ago, there was a Bundestag member. She was for the Linken Party, and now she's with Sarah Wagenknecht, who started a new party. And she said this, look, unsere erste Pflicht of her study ist, bei dieser Königreich von Lügen, bei this Königreich, by this kingdom of lies, sich nicht dumm machen zu lassen. Okay? Don't let ourselves be made dumb by this Königreich of lies.

Now, that's where it is. We've been made dumb by this kingdom of lies. Now, that's where it is. We've been made dumb by this kingdom of lies. And I dare say the people in Congress, including Mike Johnson from, where is he, from Louisiana, is not really well kept on this. He listens to people like Michael McFaul, who themselves are deranged, okay? And so that's why there's a premium on putting the word out. And I think that there are signs that this is catching on a little bit. Witness what happened in Germany. Who would have expected that Olaf Scholz's spokesperson would say, yeah, if Netanyahu

comes here, we're going to arrest him. And who would have expected that those brave students on our campuses would have been able to make a dent in U.S. policy to the point where Biden said, well, okay, there's one shipment, one shipment of 2,000 pounds, and we won't send that. Well, that's not much, but that's something. There are dents being made, and the only way they can be made powerfully is by spreading good information around. So I feel very welcome to be on your show. Well, I feel very welcome to have the two of you. I mean, you both know that we've all been friends for a long time. Larry, you are

not only a student of the intelligence community, but of the military. Does desperation lead to escalation? I'm following up on what Mrs. Nuland, she wants the Ukrainians to hit civilian targets in Russia. Exactly what you said, like punching and not hitting your opponent. Yeah. Let's first correct for Ms. Nuland's knowledge. Kharkiv is not a Russian city. Well, the Russians think of it as Russian, but it's actually in Ukraine. So she she missed. You know, we have debated that. I don't know.

She made a slip of the tongue or she doesn't know what the hell she's talking about. She fermented two revolutions there. You think she'd know the geography? It's Russian speaking. Yeah, she's got she's got she got Russian on the mind. Let's put it that way. So, yeah, what's happening now is the increased desperation because the United States Biden administration has crossed every red line they put down.

They weren't going to send Abrams. They sent Abrams. They weren't going to send attack them. They sent attack them. They weren't going to send HIMARS. They sent HIMARS. So they're going to send F-16s uh and that's gonna that's gonna really pilots uh they'll probably have to be contract pilots yeah i doubt that the ukrainians and um but if they want to get them into theater quicker

get other while ukraine still exists uh they're gonna have to use contract pilots but then russia is going to view that as a nuclear threat. You know, they've made it very clear that those are jets capable of carrying a nuclear device that can hit Russia. So Russia is not going to play around with that. But the Biden administration is not, they are not thinking this through strategically. They're not thinking this through like a three-dimensional chess

and trying to have five or six moves planned out ahead. They're just total reactive mode. They're concerned with the here and now without any concern about what this means for tomorrow. Does this close them in or does this leave other options? So, yeah, they're going to escalate. And I fully anticipate that they will give Ukraine those missiles. The problem is Ukraine's not hitting military bases or military targets. They're hitting civilian targets.

Chris, go ahead and put up that B-roll that you have from Patrick Lancaster. Patrick Lancaster is the, there you sit. That is a Russian apartment building in Russia destroyed on May 5th using Western weaponry. He is certain, Patrick Lancaster, it was Western. He's not certain it's American, to be fair to him. But that's got to be an example of just what you're, of the futility of what you're warning against, Larry. Right. Punching wildly and not hitting the opponent. Why would

they want to kill Russian civilians unless they're madmen at the end of their rope, Larry, the Ukrainian military? Yeah, no, it's just to inflict harm on the Russians. But they don't understand what this does is it hardens the Russian resolve to retaliate. And it increases the commitment of the Russian people to prosecute this war to its end, that they're going to end these people. They're not going to negotiate with them. They're not going to compromise with them. They're going to finish them off. And that's what, you know, whether the Ukrainians intended that as the outcome, that's the outcome. Ray, last question. Do you think the West understands that Putin is not bluffing? Well, that's what bothers me, Judge. You know, I've been watching Soviet leaders for half a century. I hate to be surprised,

but I was surprised when Putin marched into Ukraine. I didn't think China would support him on that. China did. Okay. The next big surprise I had was when Russia advertised the fact that they are doing military exercises with tactical nuclear weapons. That is unprecedented. That happened a month ago before Putin went to visit Xi in Beijing. The third surprise I have is that Xi and the rest of the Chinese government didn't say a word about that. I think past precedent would indicate that the Chinese don't like this kind of thing. They don't like brandishing nuclear weapons, whether they're tactical or strategic. Instead, Xi has surrounded Taiwan now with exercises and has driven U.S. frigates off claimed territorial islands there in the South China Sea. So what

I'm saying here is that I don't like to be surprised. And I was surprised very much by these exercises of tactical nuclear weapons. They're going on now, if memory serves. So what's the next surprise McGovern's in for? Well, I don't know, but it scares me that I've been wrong two times in a row. And clearly, the US is not taking this aboard. And so what's next? Provocations? The other thing is that I still think Putin is circumspect enough not to be provoked by the killing of this or the shooting of this apartment building or another. That's part of the effort, of course, from Nuland and the rest of them. So we just have to watch this really closely, especially in an election year. I don't think that Putin's going to give Biden a whole until November

without inflicting a definitive defeat on him in Ukraine. And that's big, because what will Biden do? He'll go to his Nulands and Lincolns and his Sullivans, and they'll say, well, you know, we can do a tactical nuclear thing. We'll blame it on the Russians. They were already predicted. They're going to do this, so let's do that. That'll show the Russians we mean business, and we won't lose the war,

and we won't lose the election first and foremost, and we won't lose our freedom if that other fellow comes in and uses the evidence that everyone knows already exists to put us in jail. Larry, I know I said my question to Ray was the last question, but how, well, let me restate this. Have tactical nuclear weapons been used in wartime yet? No, no. So what Putin is doing is not only terrifying, it's novel. Right. But let's put it, let's also put it in perspective. Go ahead. When Putin

announced that exercise, that exercise had already been planned. The planning for it started 12 to 18 months before. The same thing with the Chinese exercises underway. Now, these are not what we'd call annual scheduled exercises necessarily, but they are exercises that are, if you will, in the can that when they say, okay, we're going to do this. What are we exercising? So what they're exercising here is the ability of, if the Kremlin, if Putin issues an order to activate and deploy these units, can they get the message and can they deploy? And how fast do they deploy? in terms to ensure that they've got the communications protocols in place to activate and launch, give commands to launch or commands to not launch. So that's the purpose of these exercises, to ensure that they know how to both deploy

and give command and control to those units when they're in the field in the event of a real-world event. That's clear. That's the purpose of those exercises, Larry. The purpose of announcing those exercises. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's what's unprecedented. Yeah, no, I agree. And that's why that changes the whole calculation.

This is the first time he's ever- Blinken, Sullivan, and Biden get this? Ray and Larry? That's what's so troubling. There's no indication that they do. They have 10 years and they think that they're exceptional and the Russians

will never ever try that. Worse still, they may try it themselves and blame a Russian initiative as a false flag now that Russia is on the record as saying, look, we have these things we're exercising. It's really a very tentative time now, a very dangerous time between now and the election. And that's why I take the light and kind of rehearsing this with you and with Larry and others and trying to figure out what it all means. Yeah. Judges,

if they got the message, there would have, there would have been a run on buy new underwear because they would have needed to change. All right, gentlemen, thank you very much. Thank you for the week. Thank you for the day.

You are both veterans. You probably remember people who have died that you worked and fought with in useless wars. Murray Rothbard, whom I admire, used to say the last moral war America fought was Larry's ancestors, the American Revolution. But gentlemen, we won't go there. Thank you very much for your time. God bless you. Have a great weekend.

We're dark on Monday, but I believe you're both with us on Tuesday, as if it were a Monday. Okay, cool. Thanks, John. Thank you. All the best. Bye. A blessed Memorial Day weekend to all of you, whether you're in the U.S. or elsewhere. We take time to remember our war dead, nearly all of whom died in vain.

Maybe in a peaceful world that won't happen again. Maybe I'm being naive. We'll see you next week. We have all of your regular four-day week for us because we're dark in the U.S. on Monday. But we have all of your regulars coming up in those four days. Judge Napolitano for judging freedom. Thank you.