Judging Freedom - INTEL Roundtable w/ Johnson & McGovern - 25-April

Episode Date: April 24, 2025

INTEL Roundtable w/ Johnson & McGovern - 25-AprilSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

you Hi everyone, Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Friday, April 25th, 2025. It's the end of the day, the end of the week, our favorite time, and our favorite podcast, the Intelligence Community Roundtable with my two longtime friends and collaborators, Larry Johnson and Ray McGovern. Gentlemen, welcome here. Thank you as always for the double and sometimes triple duty. I deeply appreciate your accommodating my schedule and my needs. I've been asking almost everyone this week the same question and getting a variety of answers.

And I particularly like to start off, we'll get to heavier issues in a minute with both of you on this. Larry, to you first, what, if any, is the geopolitical significance of the death of Pope Francis? Well, let's say over the mid to long term, it is the selection of the new leadership. The Catholic Church is likely to be more Francis than Francis. And what I mean by that is he selected a number of, an overwhelming majority of the cardinals who will be voting to select the new pope. It also likely will break the hold of sort of the European hold on the papacy.

Even though Bergoglio was from Argentina Argentina the Argentines still think of themselves as European. Okay, so No, they're a mix of it. Is there any any geopolitics here? I mean when I asked Max Blumenthal, I thought he is there does this resonate in Israel? I thought he was gonna say to me. What are you kidding? resonate in Israel. I thought he was going to say to me, what are you kidding? But instead he told me that when the pope died, the Israeli embassy in the Vatican posted a beautiful memorial and then Netanyahu Ray McGovern ordered it taken down. Is that because the pope has been calling Catholic priests in Gaza the last three weeks of his life? Well the Pope for the last couple of months of his life was saying nice things, was saying that's

really bad what's happening in Gaza, but he did not condemn the genocide. Right. Now maybe I have very high standards for a Pope, but there was another pope, Pius XII, that also did not condemn the first Holocaust. Okay, so when people say, well, yeah, but he criticized, well, you know, you can't have hope. I guess it was Augustine that said, hope has two daughters, anger and courage. Okay, so anger at the way things are and the courage to do what you can to stop it. Now, I hope if anyone has the moral claim on leadership to do what he could, all they could do is say, well, what would have happened if the Pope sent Cardinal Perilin, his secretary of state, to confront Netanyahu directly and publicly saying stop? It was sure to take the took the issue seriously. Right.

And that's I mean, that's my biggest, you know, it's not to speak ill of the dead. But you know, he talked, he was a big talker. He talked a good game. But he was not a doer. And what you need in that office, and particularly with the kind of moral authority he had, they could have really made a difference both in the war in Ukraine because of the persecution of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, as well as the respect to the genocide of the Palestinians. Now, all of that may be explained by the fact that he was just too old and too infirm to do anything. But, you know, as far as his legacy on this,

he's forgettable. Yes, he even said in February, we need an investigation to find out if there's genocide in Gaza. Good grief. Was he living under a rock the last three years? Was he living under a rock since 1948? All right, enough with this. We're all on the same page and I appreciate the points you've made. Ray, two days ago, the President's special envoy, Steve Whitcoff, and the American Secretary of State poignantly refused to attend the so-called peace negotiations in London on the same day that they were supposed to be there. The President of the United States blamed Vladimir Zelensky for his intransigence.

Is Vladimir Zelensky free to accept a peace proposal or will he be assassinated if he does so? Well, two things, Judge. He would be in danger from the Nazis or the proto-Nazis that are in his employ. But also the British and the French and the Germans have this grandiose, completely unrealistic idea that they can support Ukraine for as long as it takes or for as long as they can. It's crazy. So they're playing, he's an actor. He's on front stage and he doesn't wanna leave front stage. And the big story here is that Putin

has played this pretty adroitly. First, the British have this expression, put somebody on the back foot, right? Well, they back footed Zelensky by saying, right before he said, okay, 30 hour ceasefire, okay? Now Zelensky, saying right before he said, okay, 30 hours ceasefire. Now Zelensky, no, no, and then he checked with his patrons, you know, it looks really bad if you, so he said, okay, okay, but then they didn't observe it. Then when they come to London, what was it, yeah, London yesterday, it was really bizarre because they had this Kellogg Cornflakes proposal, which the Russians

would never accept. And we want to blame the Russians for not accepting it. But Zelensky, the Russians are a great big favorite by criticizing it and saying it's just a nonstarter before the Russians could ever say anything. So the Ukrainians are in the back foot. And Trump is understandably sort of ticked off about this, and it's not gonna help. Now, if Witkoff still goes to Moscow

to talk with these people in the Kremlin, that's positive. That's, there are indications that the Russians are emphasizing the allied performance for World War II and saying pretty much, we could do it again. Let's get together and stop these damn wars. Larry, here's the very statement to which Ray was referring, President Trump on Wednesday,

Chris Cutt, number one. President Zelensky, he's asked to meet with you this weekend. Will you be meeting with him? I don't know. risk cut number one. We have a deal with Russia, we have to get a deal with Zelensky, and I hope that Zelensky, I thought it might be easier to deal with Zelensky. So far it's been harder, but that's okay. It's all right. But I think we have a deal with both. I hope they do it.

Are you hoping to meet with the President-elect in Saudi Arabia? It's possible, but most likely not. I think we'll meet with them shortly thereafter. Point to Ray, Larry, and I'd like you to opine on this, is that the president must understand that Zelensky may not even be free to accept, for example, a deal that concedes Crimea belongs to Russia. Would he even get out of the Capitol alive if he signed an agreement that said that?

Well, probably not. But again, he missed an opportunity. All he had to do was say nothing before the meeting in London, say nothing. He could have voiced his concerns privately. But instead, the drama queen that he is He went out and made it, you know made this big Uproar about it and as a result if he had said nothing or even if he had come out and said oh well

We we welcome the US proposal and look forward to discussing it then Russia would have been isolated because Russia was not going to accept it. In fact, on Wednesday, Peskov confirmed in an interview with the French newspaper, or I think it's a newspaper, Le Point, he said, listen to this, Ukraine must withdraw its troops from the territories of Donbass and Novorossiya, which have become part of the Russian Federation. There will be no reset, rollback, or surrender of new regions. This is not even a subject

for bargaining. It is a closed topic. Hmm. So with that, if the proposal, let's just say, imagine that they had come out with an agreement that, oh yes, we love the Kellogg plan. Let's go forward with it. Moscow would have shut it down. And at that point, Putin and the Russians are C they're in transit ship. They won't do anything, but but no you get Zelensky gave as is Ray noted as Zelensky gave Putin a big gift but also note that in Peskov what he said Russia

is changing its position previously it was just Donbass and Zaporizhzhya and Kherson now they've added Nova it's made it Novor it. That is a little broader. How does this mesh? How does this mesh Larry with the report in the Financial Times? Two or three days ago earlier this week, the president Putin was willing to stop the war where the battle lines are now, as long as everything east of those lines becomes part of Russia. There are parts of those oblasts

that are still west of those lines, as I understand it. That's British propaganda, that's just crap. That's all that was. Yeah, it was. Right, here's President, I want you to comment, As we have always said, we look positively at any peace initiatives. We hope that the representatives of the Kiev regime will also feel the same way. However, we have seen the initial reaction. I think everyone has noticed it.

There was a statement published according to which our proposal was seen as a game with fates with people's lives and so on. But apparently there was someone smarter there who suggested, most likely from foreign overseers, that rejecting such initiatives is a losing position for the Kiev regime. And they quickly agreed. Ray. Yeah. Well, I'm too, keep talking about a Western curators, the people who are

running so Linsky it's really more complicated than that, but what's clear is that it's two against one now. It's Russia and Trump against Zelensky with bystanders or strap hangers in Europe like Macron and Stommer and now Mao, trying to figure out what to do. Now, they too have been wrong-footed or back-footed here by Putin because they had hoped for big things coming out of that London meeting and their hopes were dashed. They didn't even come if memory serves. So what's the main game is with Witkoff and the Kremlin leaders. And I dare say, I think there's going to be some kind of framework agreement. No real details, but with the anniversary coming up of the 80th, actually today, yeah, today is exactly the 80th anniversary of when Russian forces, Soviet forces, and US forces met on the Elbe River in northern Germany.

The meeting on the Elbe two weeks before the end of the war. I mean, the Russians are making a big thing of this. And we'll see what happens now in terms of the big deal, which is whether there will be detente and rapprochement, or whether they'll let pipsqueaks like Zelensky throw a rod into the wheel of this progress. Larry, I agree with Ray's analysis that this is Trump and Putin against Zelensky. However, the United States is still funding Zelensky. A member of the United States Congress, a Republican congressman from Pennsylvania went to Ukraine, signed a missile for you Vladimir,

and then fired the missile into Russia. We are co-belligerents and the Russians know that, but we're not being treated that way. We're being treated as we're some sort of neutral moral arbiter here. Well, the reason is real simple. The Russians understand the cost of war, and they are not cavalier about starting

a global conflagration. They've been through it. They've done that. About one out of every 13 Russians died during the Great Patriotic War. Compare that to the United States where the, it was like two tenths of 100 died on the US side. Right.

The United States has never tasted the bitter pill of utter devastation from war except during the Civil War. And that memory has faded. But, you know, that's why we're so eager and willing to start wars and engage in this kind of reckless behavior. And, you know, the congressmen that did that is just an utter disgrace. It is. We were going to show it. But, of course, the rules of YouTube prohibit you showing somebody, shooting at somebody else. it is. We we were going to show it but of course the the rules of YouTube prohibit you

showing somebody shooting at somebody else. Here's the vice president Vance articulating that you can you can shoot words at people as we all know here's vice president Vance saying the US is ready to walk away earlier this week. Chris, cut number two. We've issued a very explicit proposal to both the Russians and the Ukrainians, and it's

time for them to either say yes or for the United States to walk away from this process. But it's now time, I think, to take, if not the final step, one of the final steps, which is at a broad level, the party saying, we're gonna stop the killing, we're gonna freeze the territorial lines at some level, close to where they are today, and we're gonna actually put in place the kind of long-term diplomatic settlement that hopefully will lead to long-term peace.

Let's see, of CBS News, before we go over to Israel and the latest problems and issues there. Where do you think this is going, Ray? The negotiations in London? Well, there are no negotiations in London anymore. That's all through. Trump is running this thing, okay? He sees his interests in developing good relations with Russia

for whatever reason, but that's what's driving us to remember that on his part, Puchin has spoken about Trump being sincere, Trump being trustworthy for God's sake. After all these indignities, all these betrayals that have happened with respect to US promises on Ukraine. So that's the main thing here. And what Trump is going to do is try to, well, look, let's put these people in their place and tell the Europeans, look, if you want to continue this war, go ahead. We're out of here if some kind of graceful exit is prepared.

And I think I may be an outlier here, but I think Putin, rather than go on with this thing, would be happy to accept, to negotiate, to give some concessions, maybe even on places like Odessa, to get a face-saving so that Trump can can get out of this thing? Now, the reality, of course, is that Russia is all but one. And that that's the that's the bedrock of how how these calculations should be should be weighed. Right. Larry Avigdor Lieberman, a notorious right-wing member of the Israeli Knesset and a former defense minister under Netanyahu, posted on X that American sources tell him that Trump is getting sick and tired of Netanyahu. At the same time, Yair Lapid, the leader of the opposition in the Knesset said he expects to see Jews

Killing Jews in Israel soon. Mm-hmm. What is going on there? well the complete disregard of Netanyahu for the lives not only of the hostages that Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad are holding, but committing Israeli troops to a battle that they know that they can't win. Despite his claims that they were going to utterly defeat Hamas, it's been very apparent that they can't. And Netanyahu has sided so decisively with these religious fanatics, the settlers, the Mizrahi, as Alastair refers to them, that it has created a genuine division.

And the problem is, it looks like the Mizrahi outnumber sort of the Ashkenazi. The Ashkenazi was like the European version. In fact, Netanyahu is one of the European version. His family heritage is Polish. He wasn't a native born to Israel. So what you're looking at here is the corruption scandal surrounding Netanyahu, the fact that he's using the war, prolonging the war to stay outanyahu, the fact that he's using the war, prolonging the war to stay out of court, the fact that there has been evidence introduced regarding he's been, subordinates of his were taking money from the Qataris. And when you start adding all of this up, Netanyahu is in a,

he's really now in a, in a death match with Ronan, uh, with the head of, uh, Shin Bet, which is running bar. So, um, you know, it, it's, it's serious. Yeah. Bar bar claimed. And again, this is the financial times. Netanyahu asked him to, uh, either lie under oath or openly defy court orders. But apparently the Israelis are not the only ones that are divided. Here's Abu Abbas, the head of the PLO, calling on Hamas to turn over their weapons and end the war. You can't make this stuff up.

Cut number 11. It's necessary for Hamas to end its control over the Gaza Strip and also hand over the weapons to the Palestinian National Authority. Since October 7, we have said one thing, to stop the fighting. Stop the fighting. Of course, no one responded to us because they disregard us because Hamas is happy and Netanyahu remains in power as long as there is war. Do you think, Ray McGovern, that Trump is sick and tired of Netanyahu and may close him to leave office?

Now I think Trump is going to let this play out in Tel Aviv or West Jerusalem. You know, when the Shin Bet fellow, their equivalent of the FBI, serves up all kinds of dirt, I mean, in addition to the things you already mentioned, he's in a pretty labile, pretty dangerous situation. With respect to Abbas, my God, you know, if there was any doubt that he's a tool of Israel, well, there you have the proof right there. In 2006, 2007, there was an election, okay? And Hamas won hands down because the PLO is totally corrupt. That's why Hamas is so popular. And we tried to reverse that by the CIA coming in and using some of our assets to overturn Hamas leadership. So that's how it all started. There's a wonderful article on that called the Gaza Bomb Show. It was in Vanity Fair, for God's sake, 2008. Look it up. up It's chapter verse of what Kundalisa Rice made as a big mistake

Having those elections the first place and then trying to reverse the results and a boss of course is Israel's man right there in the West Bank Larry is this Pete Hegseth stuff serious? And do you think? he can He can survive it does appear as though the Pentagon is a mess. Well, part of the reason the Pentagon you know I'm not a Hegseth fan but there are videos surfaced of him yesterday from last year when Biden was still in office. And he was talking about the reason the deep state hates Trump is because Trump is against forever wars.

And Hexeth was quoting as, that the Pentagon keeps losing and wasting money on stupid wars with generals who are losers. Now his comments were exactly on target. Well now he's in charge of these forever wars. Well, well, Gaza, Ukraine, Yemen. Yeah, and apparently, you know, there are elements still within DOD. Well, in fact, we don't we know There there is a new video surfaced by James O'Keefe of this one Pentagon branch chief talking openly of what they were doing to defy Donald Trump and undermine his That he had no business running the country and that they were going to sabotage it

O'Keefe O'Keefe has he's got all these honey traps that he uses to get these these guys out on dates and they start spelling their guts So there are there are elements in there, but I look I don't think hexeth will be in office by the end of December I just I just had That American flag that he wears Is they even able to do that to the American flag that he that's it for Pete Hitzer. I'm gonna get rid of him. And that will finish our time together. Thank you very much, gentlemen. Ray, I know you're doing some traveling and I hope you'll be available to us from your places of travel. Larry's willing to get up at all hours of the day and night to accommodate you.

Thank you guys. All the best. Thanks, Judge. Thanks, George. I'm going to come and I'm going Johnson at 1130 in the morning and probably one of our other colleagues later on in the afternoon. Judge Napolitano for Judging Freedom. I'm going to be a good friend.