Judging Freedom - INTEL Roundtable w/ Johnson & McGovern: Weekly Wrap -18-April

Episode Date: April 19, 2025

INTEL Roundtable w/ Johnson & McGovern: Weekly Wrap -18-AprilSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

you Hi everyone, Judge Andrew Capolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Friday, April 18th, 2025, the end of the day, the end of the week, our favorite time, our favorite segment, the Intelligence Community Roundtable with my dear friends and longtime collaborators, Larry Johnson and Ray McGovern. Larry and Ray, welcome here. Thank you as always for the double duty every once in a while, treble duty that you guys give the show, deeply appreciated. Larry, to you first. The New York Times reported this week a significant pushback in Donald Trump's inner circle against authorizing the Israelis to attack Iran. to attack Iran.

The article was supposedly based on insiders who spoke on condition of anonymity within three days of the article. Three senior people in Pete Hegseth's inner circle were frog marched out of the Pentagon. Do you see a connection? Is the article likely credible? Was there resistance to Netanyahu in Trump's inner circle in your view?

Yeah, I don't think that article had anything to do with the dismissal of those three excess cronies. It's just there wasn't enough time to quote, do an investigation and then march them out. But the New York Times piece is important in that it's signaled that basically the voices for sanity were Tulsi Gabbard and JD Vance. And shockingly, Hegseth. And Hegseth. Yeah, well, that may be explained by you. Haig said, finally got a decent briefing

about what the real capabilities of the United States are. And they're extremely limited when it comes to carrying out any military attack on Iran. That said, that article was alarming because it reflected the belief among US officials and Israeli officials say it, I'm not sure they believe it, but the US officials and Israeli officials say it, I'm not sure they believe it, but the US officials genuinely believe that

in April of 2024, the Iran was defeated in its missile attack on Israel and then Israel subsequently destroyed Iran's air defense system. They genuinely believe that. Well, that's got to be hogwash. Yeah, it's just, it's absolutely not true. And Israel didn't even do any kind of significant damage

when it launched its attack on October 27th of 2024. So the fact that you've still got people in the Trump administration entertaining this as a viable option is alarming. And then we get the news this week that Witkoff is doing a 180 from going to accepting, at least being open to accepting the Iranian proposal that they would reduce their level of enrichment of uranium. He's now saying they've got to stop it all. They've got to end it. Going back to the demands Trump made in 2018 when he withdrew from JCPOA. Ray, why would the Iranians ever accept such a

demand? Why would they take a step or two or three or five back from even the JCPOA? They haven't and they won't. What what is doing is pretty much throwing a sock to those people who are really, really wanting to attack Iran. It's very clear that the first part of that US, the New York Times article was accurate. Common sense sanity prevailed. My God, we all should be very happy about that. This other stuff is just the usual pap that people say, well, yeah, Iran has no defense. We know that's not the case. So is the Pentagon.

And when Larry says, Hank Seth probably got a pretty good briefing on this, that was included in that briefing to be sure, not the propaganda, but the fact that Iran's air defenses are sophisticated in the extreme, the more so since they've got the latest Russian anti-aircraft and anti-missile defenses.

So we've got a situation here where Witkoff is meeting with, Witkoff is going again, was it Saturday I think, the 19th, whatever that is. Yeah, Saturday. Yeah, and he's going to continue these talks. The first ones, you know, let's remember that just a week ago we had the White House saying that the talks then a week ago were very positive and very constructive. And Witkoff is saying two things, but one of the things he's saying is, look, this is really a promising development. He talked to Fox News and he said, whoa, this is very interesting.

The complicated situation is rooted in what the Russians are requiring with respect to for their core interests. We're working on that. You're going to be surprised. We might have a deal that will surprise everybody. That's what I go with. They may be shooting for Easter for God's sake. It's Holy Thursday, right? Three days from now, they may issue some sort of after Witkoff has his next talks on Saturday, Easter Sunday would be a great time to announce we've got a framework

agreement which Russia and we agree on now going to bring the others along and it will eventually involve a cease fire, but not yet. So Larry, Pete Hegseth may have gotten a good briefing and may have given the president good advice, but in public he wants to convey this impression. Here he is over the weekend with Maria Bartiromo at Fox Cut number nine. He's dead serious that Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon. He's said that for 20 years.

He's been consistent. That is clear. But he's also dead serious that if we can't figure this out at the negotiating table, then there are other options to include my department to ensure that Iran never has a nuclear bomb. We hope we never get there. We really do, Maria. But what we're doing with the Houthis and what we're doing in the region, we've shown a capability to go far, to go deep, and to go big. And again, we don't want to do that. But if we have to, we will to prevent the nuclear bomb in Iran's hands. How many misstatements can you count in there? Far deep and effective with the hooties, Larry.

We know that none of that is true. And if he's telling Donald Trump, you know, we really can't attack Iran. But yet he's telling Maria Bartiromo and her audience, my department will take care of the Iranians. What should we make of this? Well, he's deadly serious. Did he mention that two or three times? Deadly serious. You know, all we've got to do is look at the Houthis. When Donald Trump announced the reigniting Operation Prosperity Guardian, it was done under the pretext that the Biden administration,

they were a bunch of wimps. They didn't flex US muscle. They didn't even try. We're gonna show those hoothies now. And what happened? Since March 15th, when the bombing campaign started, we have launched over 500 sorties, 500 different bombing missions in Yemen.

And in the course of that, the Yemenis, the Houthis in particular, have shot down five Predator drones. In the preceding 15 months, they'd only been shooting down like one a month. Now in one month, they shot down five. And the importance of shooting down the Predators is the Predators is the only platform that I'm aware of that the United States can use to real-time locate a mobile missile target on the ground and then fire at it almost immediately. And that's one of the reasons that the Houthis are taking these out. So if you're anybody else in the Middle East, you're watching the United States.

I'm here on the big mouth flap, but I'm watching what's actually happening. They're incapable of firing off enough bombs to stop the Houthis, who the Houthis do not have the advanced radar systems that Iran does. Some of them were built by the Iranians. They weren't gifts from the Russians. On top of that, the Houthis don't have the support from Russia. They don't have an air force. They don't have the kind of missile force that Iran does. Well, what's 500 sorties cost? Is there a way to put a dollar figure on the money and the ammunition the United States is losing

in this futile effort to stop the Houthis? They said over a billion, over a billion dollars. Wow. In 30 days. Judge, money's money here, we got money up the kazoo. No, no, the real problem is the disconnect between reality where the intelligence community says that Iran is not working on a nuclear weapon and Maria's failure to say wait a second wait a second Pete

uh you say they have to be prevented from working on a nuclear weapon actually the intelligence people say actually the intelligence people says they have decided not to work on a nuclear weapon and that's been true for 22 years. You see a change there just three weeks ago. Your colleague

Tulsi Gabbard assured us all they're not working and there's a fatwa, a religious injunction against it and the same guy that put the fatwa in has not reauthorized what he had authorized before 2003. The arithmetic. So, this is

bizarre. It's a red herring. I mean, why doesn't anyone even Maria say, wait a second, wait a second. There are two things here. You're saying you're gonna push on an open door, right? Open door. You know what she also could have said to him, and I don't know how he would have answered it, guys. Hey Pete, why is it that the Israelis can have a nuclear weapon and the Iranians can't?

How is a cabinet member gonna answer that, Larry? I'd say they're God's chosen people. God likes them better than you, okay? Okay. Okay. We were, we were. Let me show you the negotiating tactic. I'm not going to say they're God's chosen people. God likes them better than you. Okay? Let me show you the negotiating tactic. This is this is what

the United States is doing. I'm not going to appear on your show anymore, judge, unless Ray McGovern stops driving a Lamborghini. Now, the fact is Ray doesn't have a Lamborghini. I'm asking Ray to not do something he's

not doing. That's the that's the same thing. I promise not. I promise not to do it, Larry. So, he's closed, alright? That's what we're talking. We're talking just a few minutes ago about the relative strength of Iran. Iran. These are the Israel Israel. Now two friends of ours got in a little bit of a tussle

over this. Colonel McGregor was on Colonel Danny Davis's show. Watch this, cut number 15. What nation on the planet can have their embassy destroyed in another country and to have an assassination in their capital city on an inauguration and not go to war with somebody? Yet that's exactly what Iran didn't do, because they don't have the power to do it. assassination in their capital city on an inauguration and not go to war with somebody yet

That's exactly what Iran didn't do because they don't have the power to do it. So that should tell you wait Wait a minute. That's a fundamentally false statement, which part full false false false They don't have the power to go to war You have to look carefully at Iran Iran's arsenal of missiles is enormous. It could flatten Israel in a day. They have the power to go to war. They have chosen repeatedly to avoid war.

And I've said this a thousand times. No one in the Middle East is interested in a war except Israel and the United States. Larry? You know when you're really stressed, or not feeling so great about your life or about yourself? Talking to someone who understands can really help. But who is that person? How do you find them? Where do you even start? Talkspace.

Talkspace makes it easy to get the support you need. With Talkspace, you can go online, answer a few questions about your preferences, and be matched with a therapist. And because you'll meet your therapist online, you don't have to take time off work or arrange child care. You'll meet on your schedule, wherever you feel most at ease. If you're depressed, stressed, struggling with a relationship, or if you want some counseling for you and your partner, or just need a little extra one-on-one support, Talkspace is here

for you. Plus, Talkspace works with most major insurers and most insured members have a zero dollar copay. No insurance, no problem. Now get $80 off of your first month with promo code SPACE80 when you go to Talkspace.com. Match with a licensed therapist today at Talkspace.com. Save $80 with code SPACE80 at Talkspace.com. Yeah, no, Doug's right. This is, you know, I learned when I lived in Latin America, they had a saying that basically it's translated, people assume that when you're being good, that you're being a, that you are a fool.

They think that because you're good, you're so foolish they can take advantage of you. And that's the lesson the United States and Israel have drawn from Iranian patience. Because the entire image of Iran that's painted in the West, it's a lie. It's a fundamental lie. Iran's the number one sponsor of terrorism. Yet, if you go back over the last 25 years and you add up the number of attacks, the number of victims, and the groups that are carrying out those attacks and causing those victims, they're all Sunni Islamic groups tied to the Gulf Arabs, not a single one tied to Iran. Yet, instead of calling a spade a spade, we prefer to

manufacture the Iran as this imaginary enemy that must be stopped at all costs. So they have, you know, we saw some of their power on display during their October 1st attack on Israel where we literally saw a hypersonic missile coming down, deviating, and then to avoid an air defense missile coming at it. That is a remarkable capability that I guarantee you the United States does not have. Wow. Ray, as to the essence, or both of you, as to the essence of what Colonel McGregor. Just said does the intelligence community know that your sources say the same thing is Iran's arsenal enormous can they flatten Israel in a day if they chose to do so.

to kill a people in a day if talking to Tulsi Gabbard, okay? And it may be that Tulsi Gabbard has told Pete Tresci Hickseth that this is crazy and it may be that Hickseth went to the president while Bibi Netanyahu was in the Oval Office and said, look Mr. President, turn him down. Tell him no. You're not going to do it. And that's that's what happened. I hate to cite the New York Times because they're half wrong as well as half right, but I accept half a half a truth here when they say that finally Trump was persuaded to say no, sorry, sorry, Mr. Netanyahu. We're sending, we're sending a Witkoff to talk, talk this out and we're not going to let you, we're not going to attack Iran and if you try it, you, we're not gonna attack you, Ron.

And if you try it, you're on your own. You're on your own, baby. You understand that? You're on your own. Ray, could, switching gears to Ukraine, could President Trump possibly, I guess the answer possibly is yes. Is it likely that President Trump signed off on

the crazy suggestion of General Kellogg to divide Ukraine up into protectorates like Germany was after World War II. And with the expectation that the Russians would accept this. Judge, as you know, the president is unpredictable. My guess, and it's only a guess, is that no, Kellogg is off selling his own plans together with the British and the French and the Germans, for God's sake.

Kellogg is out of it. That's why he's not allowed to negotiate any of this. And he's teamed up with this faction, and it's very real, very real. I think Rubio is part of it. They're trying to say, no, no, no, don't do this. We can't make good relations with the Russians unless we inflicted defeat on them in Ukraine. Totally irrational, totally impossible. possible. Larry Gilbert Doctorow tells us that Frederick Mertz, the incoming chancellor of Germany,

I forget the name of this, but is prepared to send to Ukraine Germany's best offensive missiles, which require the Taurus. Right, thank you, which require German civilian and military technology and know-how in order to exploit. Is this going to make Germany a co-belligerent? Is this going to expose Berlin to military response from the Russians. Yeah, I think we're coming to that point. Look, here's the reality.

Not only is Germany a co-belligerent, England a co-belligerent, France a co-belligerent, but the United States is still a co-belligerent. Donald Trump whining the other day about, not my wars, Joe Biden's war. Well, sorry, dude, you're now president. You've got it in your power to put an end to it today. All you got to do is say, we're turning the money off, no more money. We're pulling out

the CIA and military advisors. They're done, and you're not getting any more intelligence. It's over. But instead, you know, there's growing evidence that the United States, this, you know, we'd like to say that Russia, you know, launched this attack. We not only provoked it, this is part of a US plan. I think I've mentioned before, if I haven't, I would recommend people go back to August of 2021, read in the National Interest Magazine an article by A. Wess Mitchell. W-E-S-S is how you spell Wes. It is a paper that was originally prepared in December of 2020 for Pentagon's Office of Net Assessments.

And what he lays out in there is basically saying, look, we've got to prevent Russia and China from growing closer together. And so our best option is to force Russia into a war with Ukraine, and then forcing them into this war, we will level a defeat on them that will force them to come and suck up to us and be one of our lackeys.

And lo and behold, in November of 2021, what happens? The United States starts building up the logistics base in Poland that has been used to funnel all the arms and weapons into Ukraine. So this was a setup from the beginning. The United States has actually carried out an act of war against Russia, and we ought to be down on our knees at Easter time thanking God that the Russians haven't held us accountable for that. What is Intel doing, Ray?

Are we back to the Biden days where the intel the president gets is what they think he wants to hear or now that it's coming through Tulsi Gabbard, is it unvarnished? Well I don't know how unvarnished it is, but it's very effective in preventing Trump from doing something really stupid, letting himself be mousetrap into a war with Israel against Iran. With respect to the Towers missile, you know, Aguil doctoro is a very bright guy and he's a very prescient in warning that this would up the ante with respect to Russia's reaction to Germany. But, you know, Putin is very, very circumspect.

Towers will be pinpricks. Most of them will be shot down. It will be an additional irritant in relations. But I don't think that that Putin, having won the war, is going to attack Berlin or Rammstein or any of those bases. He's going to say, look, Mr. Trump, this is how bad it is. Are you going to rein these guys in or are you going to say, hey, NATO is finished.

You guys do this kind of thing with the Talas. Article five doesn't apply. Putin and Trump are together on this thing, so I don't see any Russian attack on Berlin, even if one of these towers missiles gets through. And I think that they'll have trouble getting through. So pinpricks are pinpricks. I think that's the way that Putin looks at it. I think that's the way that Pucing looks at it.

Last subject matter, the perception of tariffs in China. I'm going to play a fascinating, fascinating clip from a Chinese TikTok influencer who speaks perfect English. This is the Chinese view of Donald Trump's imposition of a 245% tariff on Chinese goods coming into the United States. Chris, cut number 20. They rob you blind and you thank them for it. That's a tragedy. That's a tragedy. That's a scam.

That's why I'm saying this right now. Americans, you don't need a turf. You need a revolution. For decades, your government and oligarchs honed it, shipped your job to China. Not for diplomacy, not for peace, but to explore cheap laborers. And in the process, they hollowed out your middle class, crashed your working class, and told you to be proud, while they sold your future for profit. And yes, China made money, but we used it to build roads,

lift millions of our property. From healthcare, raise living standards, we reinvested in our people. My family also benefit from it. What did your oligarchs do? They bought yachts, private jets, mansions with golf course driveways. They manipulate the market,

dodge tax, and pour billions into endless wars. And you, you get stagnant wages, crippling healthcare costs, cheap dopamine, debt, and flagged wave probably made in China while they pick your pocket. For 40 years, both China and United States benefit from the trade, the manufacturing, but only one of us used that wealth to build. This isn't China's fault. This is yours. You let this happen. You let the oligarchs

feed you lice. Well, they made you fat, poor and addicted. Now they blame China for mess they made. I don't think so. I don't think you need another tariff. You need to wake up. You need to take your. I don't think you need another tariff. You need to wake up. You need to take your country back. I think you need a revolution. It's analyzing Larry, isn't it? Yeah, you know, there was a report that came out on Thursday and some American analysts seized on us and said,

see, see, this is working, that China supposedly sent a message to Trump saying, look, if you start speaking respectfully to us, then we can talk. And so they took it and say, see, China just, as long as they're not calling them names, they're going to cave. But based upon what your conversation with Pepe and what he's observed on the ground in Shanghai, I don't see China caving on this. And I think China still holds a lot more cards with respect to the United States in resolving

on the whole issue of trade. And that Chinese influencer, he said something very important, but it was incorrect. He said the United States has wasted billions of dollars on foreign wars. No, it's trillions, not billions, trillions. And part of the reason we have this enormous fiscal deficit in the United States is not because the Chinese were building cheap trinkets and we were stupidly buying them. It is that we were spending money like a drunken sailor on liberty. We were spending it on foreign

wars. We weren't investing it in the United States. We weren't investing it in infrastructure. As a result, we got ourselves in this pickle. Like any good alcoholic, by God we're going to blame the Chinese. Ray, your thoughts on what this young man just said? My young man, I meant Larry, but I was referring to the Chinese TikTok influence.

Oh damn. Well, you know, do we need a revolution? Now, do we need a revolution? Let me not go out on a limb here. Let me just repeat what Thomas Jefferson wrote. We're in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for, I'll let you read the rest of that first sentence. Right. Now- One group of people to dissolve the political bands

that have connected them to another. And to assume among themselves the powers of the earth. Go ahead. The equal station, yeah. So you know, this is not subversive unless you're talking about a monarch that wants to impose his or her will on us. the monarch that wants to to be a summer soldier and bask in the sun and get a nice sun tan or be a winter soldier. Well, we've got to be winter soldiers now.

Now, 12 of my friends out of Travis Air Force Base blocked the supply of bombs to transport aircraft going to Israel. Last Thursday, maybe it was Wednesday for several hours. They ended up in jail, but then they were quickly released. Those are the people that we have to emulate, okay? What I'm saying here is that we have President, we have Jefferson, we have Pompeii, we also have Emerson. we have Jefferson, we have Now, I've made a big big point of this in in one of my

talks and they said, well, you know, he was sort of right, wasn't he? Maybe we shouldn't have taken over Texas. Well, yeah. Okay. The point is this uh Thoreau goes to jail, alright because he wouldn't pay $5 or something. Now, Emerson comes

along his good friend and he says, what are you doing in there? And he says, that's not the question. What are you doing out there? Now, that's the question for all of us. It's time to put our bodies into this thing. There are other bomber bases that are being loaded with bombs to kill Palestinians in Gaza and elsewhere. Let's find out where those bombs are being transported.

Let's block the transport of those things because that's exactly what Tom Paine would do. That's what Thomas Jefferson would do and it's certainly what Thoreau would do. So we have good precedent here. Why don't we step up and live up to our ideals even if it means being battered around a little bit by police and maybe in overnight in jail.

That's my take on that. And you of course have experience of being battered around. Ray, you have the courage of a tiger. Thank you very much. Larry, thank you, thank you guys. A happy Easter weekend to both of you. We'll see you both again Monday morning. Thanks so much, Judge.

Thank you. We'll see you both again Monday morning. Thanks so much, Judge. Thank you. And of course on Monday at eight o'clock in the morning, the day after Easter, Alistair Crook at 10 in the morning, Ray McGovern and 11.30 in the morning, Larry Johnson, and probably one or two more of our guests Monday afternoon. Have a happy Easter, everyone. Judge Napolitano for Jailbreak Freedom. you