Judging Freedom - INTEL Roundtable w/ Johnson & McGovern: Weekly Wrap 23-May

Episode Date: May 23, 2025

INTEL Roundtable w/ Johnson & McGovern: Weekly Wrap 23-MaySee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

you Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Friday, May 23rd, 2025. It's the end of the week, the end of the day. It's our happy time and our most popular presentation, the Intelligence Community Roundtable with Larry Johnson and Ray McGovern. Larry, Ray, as always, thank you. Welcome here. Thank you for the double duty that you give us every week.

Larry, how should the President of South Africa have responded to President Trump when he, depending on how you want to look at this, surprised or ambushed him with videos in the Oval Office earlier this week? I think Mr. Ramaphosa was entirely too polite. This was an ambush. Number one, look, there's no denying that there are some issues in South Africa and that, yes, there have been attacks on white farmers and some of their property has been taken away, but this is not the government policy. There are people in South Africa that advocate that. And yet Donald Trump had the audacity

to accuse South Africa of genocide. And if I was Mr. Ramaphosa, I would have said, well, Mr. President, stop. You're in no position to lecture me on the issues of genocide. I said, it's not our government policy. We've not openly declared that all whites must be exterminated. But you've sat in this very oval office and you've embraced Bibi Netanyahu,

who has called for the extermination of the Palestinian people, declaring them as Amalek, and they have killed over 60,000. Yet you're sitting here talking about the deaths of 1,000 white farmers as if it's the most important thing in the world where you sit there and you enable, you facilitate the murder of these Palestinian children, these women, these elderly. And plus, you have no moral authority as a country to lecture me on the deaths of civilians. Again, it's not our policy, but you in Yemen, in Vietnam, in Libya, in Afghanistan, in Iraq have killed millions, millions of civilians.

So spare me your moral outrage. And at that point I would have gotten up and walked out. God bless you, Larry. Obviously, President Romposa did his best, but was very gentlemanly and polite. I mean, the least he could have said was, what you've said is false and libelous. The best he could have done would have been a litany like you did.

You know, Ray, Chris tells me that Microsoft has quietly implemented a policy blocking employee emails from containing the words Palestine, Gaza or genocide. They have it, Judge. It's the worst I've seen. It's just as bad as the old Soviet Union that I was so familiar with during the early parts of my career.

You have criticism, you have not only, you have censorship of the kind that exists in the most totalitarian states, but it's facilitated by high-tech companies that do a lot of business with the government. It's pretty corrupt. and I'll ask Larry the same thing. What is the reaction in the intelligence community to the public firing of these two CIA agents because their analysis did not conform with the president's political needs? How does the rank and file react to that? A judge, I have to admit,

I've lost contact with the rank and file as my Irish grandmother would say at the age of 97 I there are dead now about her friends as if it were their faults But many of my friends are all dead now and the other ones won't speak to me. So I defer to Larry Larry do you have any feel for how? agents Who you guys know better than anybody, what you go through to gather information, react to the firing of their superiors for delivering an honest report? Well, let's say the correct terminology is officers. I don't know what to believe anymore because the level of disinformation that's pumped out on both sides makes it very

difficult to ascertain what's going on. If they were jettisoned for um presenting objective analysis that ran counter to the president's policies they should have been given an award because that requires some level of courage right um it was it did i was aware it did happen under biden that uh analysts who were trying to present a more balanced view of what was going on with respect to Russia and Ukraine were actually removed. So this kind of chilling effect on the politicization, if it's going on now under Tulsi Gabbard, shame on her, but this has been longstanding. It goes back to the days, as Ray knows, of George Allen when he was running, George Allen and his analyst Sam Adams, when they were involved

with the whole issue of body counts in Vietnam. It's dangerous whenever you allow the intelligence to be politicized, because at that point you're guaranteeing that the country's gonna be blind. Ray, it appears that the neocons that surround the president have prevailed on Steve Witkoff to change his negotiating strategy. The Iranian negotiators walked away from the first negotiations saying we're pretty

close to a deal. They're going to allow uranium enrichment for civilian purposes. And then suddenly, Witkoff went on national television and said, zero, zero enrichment. Why make a demand that you know is a non-starter? This is the moral equivalent, I think, of Zelinsky and Rubio demanding the return of the Oblasts. Why make a demand you know is going to fall? Well, as I look at it, Judge, these are maximalist demands. You start out with these things. Now, as I understand it, a fourth negotiating round between the Iranians and the US have started. So, I don't place much store by rhetoric coming out of coming out of Wittkopf, especially since he has made more sense before.

They'll go back to more sense. The big thing to remember here is this all has to do with Israel. You know, we did Iraq because of Israel. The big men wanted to go to Tehran at the time, now they still want to go to Tehran. They are deterred, and the armed forces of the United States are telling the president, look, don't let Bibi Netanyahu mousetrap you into a war that we cannot win and that will end up with the destruction of Israel,

not to mention on military bases in the area. You know, Larry, I may have misstated the question when I said the neocons around Trump. Doesn't matter if you're a neocon or an American first or on this issue because they are all Zionists to the core. Yeah, just to let's correct a little bit of the timeline. This is actually the fifth meeting that's underway right now as you know, as we're talking, you know, Friday in Rome, we haven't had a report out yet about the results of that. But at the start of this week, they had canceled that session. And then the Omanis intervened and the Iranians agreed to come.

But the position that the United States has outlined as far as zero enrichment is completely unacceptable to the Iranians as you know, peppy Escobar talked about it with you I think yes on Wednesday, right? the other the other thing that sort of playing into this though is the murder of those two is Israeli diplomats in Washington DC on Wednesday, late Wednesday, by an activist screaming, you know, free Palestine. You know, this kind of killing is never justified and yet it is being used to the hilt here in the United States to further justify violence against the Palestinians

and to excuse the genocide and murder by the Israelis of the Palestinians. So, unfortunately our domestic politics continue to, in some respects, constrain what even Donald Trump can do. respects constrain what even Donald Trump can do. As an example, I think Witkoff's original position was he was willing to tolerate a 3.6% enrichment of uranium, but man, once the Zionist horde was unleashed on him, he quickly was beaten down. And so this is a situation in which these outside influences, particularly by the Israeli government interfering

in the US policy, is really setting us up for some potentially terrible things. I think what you have said is also understood in the Middle East, Larry. Ray, yesterday Al Jazeera reported that Iran says it will hold you, the United States, responsible for any Israeli attack on nuclear sites, and the Revolutionary Guard warns that Israel will suffer a devastating and decisive response if it attacks Tehran. Are we getting closer and closer to violence, Ray McGovern?

That's the reality, Judge, but the problem is that Iran has a deterrent. For the first time in history, 4,000 years of Persian history, Iran has deterred Israel and the United States. They have the ability to have a mass reaction and kill lots of people, Americans included. So yeah, this will go up to the wire and what couples say, well, we tried, that was our position, but we'll let them refine or we'll let them get enough high-grade uranium so

that they can power their medical reactors and so forth. We'll go back to a deal similar to the JCPOA. I think that's the inevitable result. Why? Because the US forces don't want to have another loss and the Pentagon has to be telling the president this is really stupid you thought Ukraine was stupid this is doubly stupid that's where I find some comfort in the notion that there is deterrence now for the first time Israel is deterred the the fly in the ointment of course is if Netany, desperate to avoid that bridal suite with his wife in the jail in Tel Aviv, if he decides, well, it's jail for me or we start a war, what will Trump do then? I think even then Trump will restrain himself because the military doesn't

want to get involved in a match with Iran, who has showed the ability now to even track untrackable supersonic hypersonic missiles. They could track F-35s, they almost shot one down, the hoodies can do that. So the advantage that the US used to enjoy traditionally is no longer there. I count on the military However corrupt they have been to point out to the president Look, we don't want to lose another one for God's sake don't let Netanyahu mousetrap you Larry you referred earlier to Netanyahu's reference to Amalek, some ancient biblical theory that the Jews can slaughter non-Jews.

I want you to watch, I know this will aggravate you, it has all of us, I want you to watch this former member of the Knesset, then a member of Netanyahu's Likud party calling for the slaughter of babies in Gaza. Cut number 10. Every child in Gaza is the enemy. We are at war with the Gazan entity, the Gazan terror entity, which we ourselves established in Gaza, in Oslo, and in the disengagement.

The disengagement that Prime Minister Netanyahu voted in favor of, that is the enemy now. Every such child to whom you are now giving milk in another 15 years will rape your daughters and slaughter your children. We need to conquer Gaza and settle it. And not a single Gazan child should remain there. Let's stop telling ourselves this deception just to score points in this game between about winning this war and it's about justice. When will we learn? When will we learn?

Terrific attitude, Larry shared by a significant number of the Israeli public. Yeah. Well, Mr. Heinrich Hitler there looks pretty good for his advanced age is being this extreme Nazi. I mean, he's a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very? Yeah, well, Mr. Heinrich Himmler there looks pretty good for his advanced age as being this extreme Nazi. I mean, look, I remember the first time I read in eighth grade of William Schreier's The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich

in the particular chapter that dealt with the Holocaust. And what I remember being struck with at the time was this disregard for the Jewish children, the murder of Jewish children, how horrific it was. Well here and now you've got this esteemed member of the Israeli society. I mean he's not some isolated flake, some crank, He's not some isolated flake, some crank. He's mainstream. And without batting an eye, he's advocating the murder of children.

And there was this one Jew who made a comment several years ago about the woe upon those who harm children because it would be better for a millstone to be tied around their neck and tossed into the depths of the sea. Jesus had some pretty strong views about how children are supposed to be treated. And when Jesus made those comments, he didn't say, only Jewish children, only Muslim children, only Christian children, no, just children. And it is, you know, this is where the morality of a society is put to the test, that if we

stand by silently, while this kind of horror is allowed to be presented and accepted as okay, then we ourselves become complicit in it. Ray, earlier this week, Tom Fletcher, Thursday, 14,000 guys and children would die of malnutrition if aid didn't get through. I don't know if the aid got through. At the same time, last week, weekend on one of the talk shows, Witkoff referred to Donald Trump as a humanitarian. Now, Larry has already eviscerated Donald Trump as a humanitarian in the discussion about Sarah Ramposa.

But did these kids die? Is the United States not going to do anything to save them, just in deference to Netanyahu's political problems? Well, in answer to your question about the trucks, my latest information is that five trucks got in. Five trucks. They need 500 trucks each day to feed people in Gaza. So five. And guess what?

Two of those trucks were not carrying food or nourishment. What were they carrying? Shrouds, burial shrouds. My God. Now I just point out to pick up where Larry left off that that fellow that Larry mentioned was a Jewish Palestinian. His name was Jesus, but he had to run away from the slaughter of babies, according to the Bible, run away to Egypt of all places. Now in those days you could get back into Egypt from Gaza. Now when this guy talks about justice, I would just have to say that I am appalled by how the Zionists have distorted a very pure Jewish tradition of justice. The original word for justice in the Bible was tikka. It denoted, not connoted, but denoted

showing mercy to the poor. My God, okay. That's been the Abrahamic tradition. That's what Yahweh cares about. That's what Jesus cares about. That's what the prophet cares about, okay. And that's why Hamas is so popular because they cared about the poor. So, you know, to talk about justice in the terms that that Zionist, that's that horrible guy. So it's just such a distortion of of a religion that used to be a hallmark of people seeking justice by showing mercy to the poor denotation, not interpretation or connotation. Zetka, mercy to the poor. Larry, here's Netanyahu's latest on the relationship between the IDF and Gaza just three days ago.

Chris, cut number 14. Eventually, we will have an area fully controlled by the IDF, where Gaza's civilian population can receive aid, while Hamas gets nothing. This is part of the effort to defeat Hamas alongside the intense military pressure and our massive incursion which is essentially aimed at taking control of all of Gaza and stripping Hamas of any ability to loot humanitarian aid. This is the war plan and the victory plan. This is their mantra, we can't let aid in because it would feed Hamas. So in order to harm Hamas will starve babies, Harry. Yeah, you come up with all sorts of excuses and

justifications for inhuman behavior. But you know, Israel is in the under the control of hubris. You know, now after 21 months or more, they have failed to defeat Hamas. And the fact of the matter is that from a military standpoint, Israel has had every advantage you could possibly imagine. And yet what this has exposed is as is the case with the United States and the Houthis, what are the limits of this conventional military

power? They can kill civilians, they can create all sorts of rubble, they can level Gaza literally to the ground, and yet at the same time Israel creates for itself almost an insurmountable tactical problem. They want to go in and control territory, yet under that territory there are tunnels, there are hiding places, and there are ambush zones. And Israel's gonna continue to take casualties. And the fact of the matter is that Israel is very unwilling to incur and unable to accept the kinds of casualties

that they've been experiencing over the last, you know, 20, 21 months. And it's having visible effects on the military's level of readiness. They've already complained that the reservists are refusing to report for duty. And you've got, as you've reported on some of your other shows as well, former Israeli generals are speaking out in condemnation and

actually, you know, appalled by what they see as the conduct of Netanyahu's government with respect to the Palestinians. So, you know, Israel hasn't completely lost its soul yet, I guess is my point. What do you think of the United Kingdom suspending trade talks with Israel? Is this, you know, whipping somebody with a wet noodle, Ray? wet noodle, Ray? Well, yeah, but it's an indication that even Britain, and I say even Britain, realizes that it's a bad look to support genocide. The French are in on that too. Others are coming forward and saying, look, you better stop. Now, if we don't stop it, I mean, as I calculate it, 10% of the Palestinians have already been murdered or killed or starved to death My god, we got to stop it as who's gonna stop it. We are Americans

Why because they depend on Trump they depend on our administration So we have to cause a lot of good trouble good trouble We have to make sure that our leaders know that we don't stand as American people For genocide and we wanted to stop. I think the sentiment in our country has changed appreciably since those days when Netanyahu could break about 80% support among the Americans no matter what we do, it's absurd, said Netanyahu in 2001. Well, it's still absurd if it's above 50%, but I doubt that it's above 50% now.

And many justice, real justice, cekah, justice Jews are coming forth now and saying, look, this is not our tradition This is this is Zionism. It needs to be stopped. So we're gonna stop it And we're gonna do it. We're gonna have fine ways to do it by causing good trouble You're gonna get arrested again at some congressional hearing Larry a ray McGovern I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Trump, do the Americans understand the Russian mentality? Genuinely, no. Again, the way Trump is talking about this, he keeps presenting it as if this is entirely a conflict between Ukraine and Russia over, they just don't like each other, they have a bad history together, without acknowledging that the United States has been the major instigator and cause of this war because of our advocacy and leadership in expanding NATO and making NATO the threat

that it is or represents to Russia. That is when you hear Putin talk about root causes, it's all about NATO. It started under Bill Clinton, expanded under George W. Bush, continued under Barack Obama. Ironically, I've used the metric of military exercises as an indicator because exercises, you're always, you're training your military forces for a possible war. And it's noteworthy that under the exercise program went from an average of three exercises per year under Bill Clinton to five per year under Donald Trump. under Donald Trump. So Trump has, whether he wishes to acknowledge it or not, has been as guilty of provoking this conflict with Russia as anyone else. Now the Russians are, they're still, they're giving Trump the benefit of the doubt. They're accepting the fact that he so far has avoided the trap that the

Europeans laid for him because they basically wanted Trump to try to get some concessions out of Putin. If he couldn't get concessions, then to immediately declare bone crushing sanctions. And Trump has shied away from that. But frankly, I don't think Trump's going to be able to avoid that because of what the Senate and the House are doing. Frankly, I don't think Trump's going to be able to avoid that because of what the Senate and the House are doing. You've already got 80 US senators assisting on the bone-crushing sanctions.

They continue to portray Russia as this imperial force intending to take over the world, and there's no amount of reason or logic that you can apply to them to bring them back to reality. So I think we could get into a situation where Trump is going to be penned up by his own legislature that he won't have any other option but to take a confrontational approach with Russia. Where do you think these negotiations are going, Ray? I mean, Larry's right. Trump totally armed the Ukrainians during his first term.

That was the cause of, it was absurd, but it was the cause of the impeachment. Now, Judge, I see that the glass has more than half full now. Negotiations are going to start this coming month. The discussion, the two-hour discussion that they had a week ago was pivotal. As Larry mentioned, Trump dissed the Europeans, dissed Lindsey Graham, dissed Kellogg and all those hardliners, and said, look, I'm going to go toward negotiations. I'm going to bring Zelensky in here. I got Zelensky to thank me, to thank me for starting these negotiations.

I see great promise there. Now, the background, of course, is that John Mearsheimer, 11 years ago, September, October, 2014, said that the crisis is the West's fault, and if the West proceeds down the path it was going, it would destroy Ukraine. Eleven years ago. That's the reality, and Putin has made that clear to Trump. Two hours, that's enough to tutor Trump on what's at stake here and who has the upper hand. So, I think Trump has been very courageous in a sense in taking on these other guys. Larry is

right. There's been a slip between cup and lip. But this meeting, I think, was a cup or a glass more than half full. And we'll see how it plays out. It's going to happen. Maybe the Vatican will afford good services. But wherever the talks happen, Lindsey's going to have to either cooperate or Trump will be able to say, well, we tried. You're on your own. You think the Europeans can help you. Good luck with that. I'm out of here. Finally, President Putin honored Larry's and my new friend, Sergey Lavrov, with the highest award the Russians can give the Order of St. Andrew founded by the Tsar Peter the Great, St. Andrew who was the brother of St. Peter the first Pope, but Saint Andrew was the patron

saint of Russia. Now watch this, it's a little emotional. Larry, I hope he's not going to retire as you and I sort of got the feeling he was interested in. We spent a few hours with him, but here's President Putin praising Foreign Minister Lavrov. Look at the look on Lavrov's face. Chris, cut number 20. Now the talents of our key, our chief diplomat, Sergei Lavrov, have been recognized both in Russia and abroad, both by our friends and by our geopolitical opponents, as we like to call them. by our geopolitical opponents, as we like to call them. His dedication to Russia, his readiness to continue to defend our interests, regardless of circumstances, is what we value. Many years of work for the betterment of our Motherland is his accomplishment.

He is awarded the order of Saint Andrew. I don't know maybe I'm reading into it. I just hope he's not going anywhere, Larry. Well, he's listen he's been in this game for well over 30 years and is rightly deserved the honor of being considered one of the preeminent foreign ministers and diplomats in the world. There's a pretty good bench behind him. I've met Sergey Rybkov, one of the deputy foreign ministers. He is as capable as Sergey Lavrov, but you know Lavrov is just he's been a giant and he was also

recently honored by the the Russian Orthodox Church. They also bestowed upon him an honor. So you know we may be seeing the start of he's saying hey look I'd like I'd like to go, you know, play golf or fish or do something for a while. You know, I've served my country long enough. But you know, it is it is a you know, sort of an honor that to get called out like that by Putin. Putin, to his credit, is not an egomaniac where you've got you know, you don't have

to feed Putin's ego like you need to feed Donald Trump's ego. Right. Gentlemen, thank you very much. Another great conversation at the end of the week. Deeply appreciated. I hope the three of you have a great, the times on Tuesday, as if it were a Monday. Have a great holiday. Thank you. Thanks, Judge. Of course. Of course. And of course, we will be dark on Monday, Memorial Day, a national holiday here in the US, but on Tuesday, you'll have all of your Monday favorites, Alistair Crook, Ray McGovern, Larry Johnson, and one or two others in the afternoon. Thank you for watching. Have a great holiday weekend. Judge Napolitano for Judging Freedom. MUSIC