Judging Freedom - INTEL Roundtable w/ McGovern and Matt Hoh (in for Larry) - Weekly Wrap, 14-Nov

Episode Date: November 14, 2025

INTEL Roundtable w/ McGovern and Matt Hoh (in for Larry) - Weekly Wrap, 14-NovSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Thank you. Hi, everyone, Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Friday, November 14th, 2025. The end of the day, the end of the week, our favorite time, the Intelligence Community Roundtable today with Matt Ho and Ray McGovern. Gentlemen, thank you very much. Thanks for accommodating my schedule. Thank you for joining us.

Ray, to you first, do you think that the East, EU can effectively replace the United States as the benefactor of Ukraine or what remains of Ukraine? Oh, that's an easy one. The answer is no. And how they can be so delusional in trying to project the image that, yeah, well, we don't have any money, but we're going to steal some for the Russians, and then we'll buy some weaponry from the United States. They don't have any weapons here. But a couple of years I have weapons, and then we give them to the Ukrainians who won't have any soldiers left. I mean, other than that, it's a great plan.

That's a great plan. It's a genius plan. But the cash just isn't there, and the armaments can't be built soon enough. There are rumors as we speak, Matt. Well, there's a statement as we speak from a newspaper in Kiev that President Zelenskyy is traveling to Greece this weekend. to discuss energy matters, the rumors in Eastern Europe from a very well-placed source whom we all know, but doesn't want me to mention the name on air, is that President Zelensky is not coming home. He will flee to Greece. Will he have a home to come to? How disabled does

the Ukrainian military as we speak? Might his fleeing to Greece be the best thing? to end this menagerie. Thanks for letting me join you, Judge and Ray. I think the reality is that if he doesn't come back, you're going to have someone fill his place who comes from the far right, the hard right, the Nazi camp among the establishment there in Ukraine. And so I think whoever is going to replace Zelensky

if this was to come to pass, something similar or he just, he has a stroke and, you know, doesn't wake up is going to be someone who is incredibly recalcitrant, is someone who is devoted to victory in Ukraine, who is more so devoted to the far right neo-Nazi project in Ukraine that we've seen over the last decade plus. So I think there's a danger here that if this rumor is true, Zelensky doesn't come back. This doesn't lead to more peace, or doesn't lead to peace, but rather leads to an entrenchment for more war. And you could, I could see, you know, following up on Ray's comments there about the Europeans, how the Europeans may be happy with this. Some there, or not all, but some

Europeans may see this as what they need to ensure victory in Ukraine as a steady hand, not someone who has become corrupted or whose star doesn't shine as bright as Zelensky. And I'll just make this comparison. It reminds me very much of how we traded horses midstream in Afghanistan, how after Karzai went from being Time Magazine's best dressed political leader of the world to falling out of favor, we brought in Ashraf Ghani. And, you know, I think the same type of dynamic would be at play here. Ray Ritter, Scotty points out that the corruption gig is up in Ukraine, as corrupt as they are,

as much as everybody knows that some of these guys, including their attorney general, called the justice minister, and their energy minister have actually been caught with their hands in the tilt. Nobody will be prosecuted. They'll get to keep what they stole, but they're out of office. I wonder how much of what they stole was borrowed in the name of the American taxpayer and shipped there. We should have given them $3 bills, Judge. I mean, they're talking about only $100 million, right? Well, you know, that is just skimming off the surface.

But my God, the reports are going around, right? in London, Paris, where people are really hurting. And in Germany, where they're about to hurt pretty soon. The notion that we gave billions of dollars to this corrupt regime, you know, it will have repercussions, I believe, in Europe. And I'm not so sure that these repercussions won't happen in Kiev as well. Let me explain. This has been artfully done.

The inspectors that have uncovered, all this, oh my gosh, all this corruption, who are they? Who are they being directed by? Could they be being directed by somebody who really wants to get rid of Zelensky? It's all his friends that have been figured. He's not been fingered yet, but so I think that it will have repercussions in Europe, for sure, should have in the United States, but that the Ukrainians themselves would not be able to just sort of flub this off and say, well, wait a second you know these guys are profiteering while our young people are getting killed matt back to europe what will happen in your view uh if the european um

leaders mcrone stormer vanderlion mertz steal russian state assets from european banks and either give it to zelinski or use it as some sort of a pledge as if he's ever going to repay it. Right. And, you know, Judge, the Europeans to, you know, underline what Ray was talking about before, about their delusions, they don't think this is an issue because Ukraine's going to win the war and then Russia will have to pay all this money back anyway in reparations. You know, that's how far gone they are. That's where their mania has taken them. What will the Russians do if their hundreds of billions of dollars are stolen out of a bank, which is essentially where most So tomorrow, the Euroclear Bank in Belgium is they'll sue and they'll go to court and they will win.

And this is why the Belgians have said we're not doing this because this is a shut and close a case, if you will, that we will lose in court. That will also, you know, dramatically undermine what little faith people have in our institutions, right? I mean, it will accelerate this decline in trust throughout the EU. But then the other side of it is that the Russians will retaliate. The Russians claim that they have as much European assets as the Europeans have Russian assets. And that, you know, so you'll get into this type of economic warfare, if you will, or an extension of the ongoing economic warfare that we've seen for, you know, since, you know, 2014, essentially, or even before then.

Right. what happens when the United States puts the needs of a foreign country above its own? I'm speaking, of course, of the Netanyahu regime. Well, the answer to that one is nothing. The answer to another regime would be something indeed. In other words, as has been said countless times, Netanyahu has a lock on Trump. Trump's not going to be able to do anything or it's not going to be able to see that he can actually do anything to counter Netanyahu. And so Netanyahu is left free to continue the genocide, the forced starvation.

And it doesn't matter what the World Court of Justice says he's going to keep doing it. It's going to be up to the UN for God's sake. The UN should intervene with a Uniting for Peace resolution and put troops in there. It's on its way, but it's not there yet. And meanwhile, tens of thousands of Palestinians are being killed every month. So you have a country, Matt Ho, that legalizes theft, rape, and murder so long as the victim is a Palestinian. How can such a country, on top of all of its other apartheid crimes, possibly be accepted in the international community? How can it be tolerated in the international community?

It is, well, because it's an extension of the West, right? This is the West's colony in the Middle East, and there's a lot of history we can get into and unpack all that. But essentially, the Europeans and the Americans see Israel as theirs, and so they protect it. And then, of course, you have the understanding of the Israelis of the American political system as well as the British, the European political systems, as well as the medias, and their ability to control, to influence, to

manipulate. And so this is why you have this ability to Israel, of Israel, to be such a prior state, such a rogue outlaw state that, you know, it's interesting, Judge, that the British supposedly stopped sharing intelligence with the United States over the United States's illegal actions in the Caribbean and in the Pacific in terms of extraditiously killing people on the high seas, you know, which, you know, war crime violation of international law, but nothing in comparison to the genocide in Gaza, but yet the British still go along with that. So the impunity that the Israelis have, you know, has historical roots here. Again, that legacy of being a colony of the West, as well as, too, the clear practical function, the clear practical success

of their ability to manipulate control and influence, not just American politics and media, but European as well. So, Ray, you have intimated this for a long time that Netanyahu has a lock on Trump, and the name of that lock is Epstein. So drop site. news just reported a few minutes ago that an Israeli spy stayed for weeks at a time in Jeffrey Epstein's townhouse in Manhattan. Leaked emails just leaked yesterday show Epstein working on a wire transfer to Ehud Barak's top aide by the name of Yoni Koran, K-O-R-E-N, who apparently also regularly stayed at the apartment. at Epstein's apartment.

This stuff is getting worse, is it not? Is the CIA aware of what Epstein was doing, Ray McGovern? Yes, of course it was. So was the FBI. You know, Ehud Barak. He used to tell his wife he was going to the movies, right? But he'd go to Epstein's house and stay for weeks. I mean, he was, wasn't he once the prime minister or Israel?

He was. I think he was also, Matt would know, I think he was also the chief of the IDF, and then he became the Israeli prime minister. You're not talking about a slouch that's insignificant in Israeli government and society. Why would Epstein be wiring money to Ahud Barak? Well, the financial aspect of what Epstein was doing is coming to the fore now, but the basic fact that matters is that he was an agent of Israel, the Israelis Mossad, their secret service.

And that can be proven by a former Mossad agent who was totally reliable. I know that because Robert Perry used to depend on him for really good information on Israel, Iran, and so forth with the Iran country thing. What's his name? Ben Menaschi. Now, he went on a TV program and he said, look, I know I was handling. I was part of the Epstein thing. I handled the father and the daughter. And I know that, please, Mr. Trump, to end the genocide, just let it all out.

They get it up on the desk. You'll feel better for it. For God's like, please do that. People are dying in droves every night. Please do that. So, you don't really need much more proof, but the U.S. press or the Western press disguises that and it goes into every other detail except the fact that the Israelis were behind all that. Let me add a little thing. You're talking about chutzpah, right?

Well, here's chutzpah on steroids. We give the Israelis $3.8 billion right off the top every year. Last year, gave you a total of a 30 to 40 billion extra. Now the Israelis want to negotiate a 10-year agreement, which will include more than 3.8. billion dollars a year. They want to go to 10 years. Why? Because the current agreement expires in 28, and they want to be in position if Trump goes as he will, we hope, then they'll be in position to be in receipt of even more harder in cash from American taxpayer. So Hutzpah is the name of the game. And if they're not paying a price for what they did with Epstein, Well, they'll feel self-confident and not ever having to pay a price.

Is there any question, Ray, that Epstein worked closely with Israeli intelligence? None, none at all. Matt, will the American decision to attack Venezuela, which now seems imminent, delay the Israeli invasion of Iran. That's a good question, Joe. This comes down to what's rolling around in Donald Trump's head in terms of what he thinks is best for him. And we have to always remember everything that gets done this next year has to be weighed against his chances to win the Nobel Peace Prize. So, which, you know, we shouldn't have, we shouldn't be talking about that.

like that should just be something that people should say this whole guy talking about that he's an idiot but this is the world we live in where the president of united states the most powerful man in the world etc etc is making decisions of life and death for thousands upon thousands of people based upon his own vanity right based upon the fact that the baroque obama got a Nobel peace prize and Donald trump doesn't have one but you know can the united states military carry out limited operations against Venezuela. I don't think we're looking at an invasion. There's simply not that many troops there. There's 16,000 troops in the area. About 14,000 of those are manning ships, only about 2,000 Marines that can go on the ground there. So we're not looking at an invasion like Iraq in 2003. So could the United States do both? Could it carry out air strikes and commander raids into Venezuela at the same time supporting the Israelis in a continuing of the last two years of warfare with the Iranians, you know, you would say on paper, yes, but then you look at who's running our Pentagon, who's running our military, look at the

success of the American military over years, the failure of the generals and the admirals. You know, Judge, we know that the American generals have been the ones who've been commanding the Ukrainian army in Ukraine. They're the ones responsible for all the big hand movements of that war, right? The big arrow movements of that war, excuse me, you know, and they've been defeated by the Russian generals. The United States Navy has been defeated in the Red Sea, not once, but twice by the Houthis. And then, of course, in the war with Iran last year, just the 12-day war, Donald Trump had to end it by staging this spectacle flying B-2s halfway around the world to drop bombs onto their nuclear facilities, not knowing whether they were.

work or not, but how to have some type of stunt, some type of theater or event to give him an excuse to get out of the war because the Israelis and the Americans are running out of air defense missiles and eventually Iran was going to start overwhelming Israel. So, you know, you can look on paper and say, yeah, they can do both. But when you look at the reality of American military operations over the last few years as well as over the last few decades, I don't have a lot of trust and confidence or faith that the American military can perform well in two wars at the same time.

So the Washington Post is just reporting. I'm going to read it verbatim. High-level discussions over whether to attack Venezuela and how have been underway for days according to people familiar with the matter. It remains unclear if President Donald Trump has decided to pursue such an escalation. This was revealed just about,

15 minutes ago. Ray, are there CIA on the ground in Venezuela? You remember the president said it's a covert mission, but I'm revealing its existence. Are they still there trying to cause chaos or disruption or bribe Venezuelan military people to turn on their commander in chief? Well, of course they're still there, Judge. And under the National Security Act of 1947, they're authorized to be there by the President of the United States who is given power to do these kinds of things without further ado. In other words, he can tell the CIA to do these things, and they'll do it. Now, that may be legal in a narrow sense.

I think the Constitution actually would prevent that, but it's international law crime. Now, take the military, that's an international war crime in spades. What interests me is that there was one gutsy Navy Admiral. His name was Alvin, what, Holsey? Yes. It was an African-American admiral in the Navy, head of the South Command that he said, I don't want any part of this. I'm quitting.

But you haven't even been in command for a year. That's all right. I quit. Now, I dearly hope. Admiral Holsey, if you're listening to this, as so many millions of others are, okay, tell us why you're quitted. You quit it? You quit because you didn't want to become a war criminal. And now the likes of John You and other so-called lawyers, no disrespect judge, so-called lawyers, are trying to justify why it's possible that this is not a war crime. And what they say is, well, Trump says they're a drug deal. And Trump says that drug fearless, that we can go after them. I mean, give me a break. Even the legal people are being enlisted now to try to prevent our soldiers, our sailors, from being tried later as war criminals at a trial like Nunberg.

So, Matt, the British Crown Prosecution, which is what they called their Department of Justice, has issued a secret legal memorandum saying, this is a war crime, killing people on the high seas, and therefore British military and British intelligence will have nothing to do with it. The United States Department of Political Justice has issued a secret legal memorandum, as Ray just said, saying it's not a war crime. The president can kill whoever he wants. The latter, of course, is absurd. But it is interesting, I think, the public break between MI6 and CIA, where MI6 washing their hands of this.

Right, Judge. The Canadian foreign minister got asked this question. And she deferred. She danced out of it and said it's up to the Americans to determine if their actions are violating international law or not. The French have issued some denouncements of American policy. But for the Brits, as you're saying, to put forward publicly that we're not going to work with you, our closest ally. MI6 and CIA, Ray can tell you this better than I can, you know, they're tied at the hip, you know, being led around on a leash by Mossad maybe, but they're tied at the hip. And, you know, so it's just the, I think the vulgarity of this, the overt nature of it, right? The fact that it's so obvious what's occurring here. And then long history, the ugly history that leads to this, all the other wars that the United States has perpetrated in just such a brutal barbaric fashion. Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan.

So the Brits, I think, are saying, you know, this is something that we can't have our hands attached to. We can't have our hands. We can't be a complicit or a part of. You know, I'm reminded, Judge, John Adams said there is no greater guilt than an unnecessary war. And it's amazing how many of these unnecessary wars have populated our lifetimes. And, you know, that there's a lot to be said about that. about the culpability and the soul of this country. Do intelligence officers either quit, Ray, or decline assignments,

if they think they're immoral, unconstitutional, a violation of international law, or are those not metrics that the intelligence community uses? Well, there are metrics, of course, but they only apply to the operations, people on the other side of the turnstiles there at CIA headquarters. In other words, the analysts can have a conscience. They can quit, but they seldom know what's going on. They sell them know enough about what's gone in operations on the other side of those turnstiles to quit.

The ones that actually do the operations, no, they're told that, look, the Nester Security actor says that this head of the CIA can perform such other functions and duties as the president can from time to time direct. We got court last year. Never mind the Constitution. Never mind international law. We're protected. And so far, they have been protected, pretty much. Now, there comes an end to all things.

Maybe some of those operators will start thinking like Admiral Halsey did and say, look, you know, despite the fact that I may be protected, maybe you ought to speak out because it's heinous. This is a war crime. I don't want to be even a tangential part of it. Yes. Gentlemen, thank you very much. It's late in the day and it's the end of the week.

I thank you so much for your time. You both did double duty this week. We'll look forward to seeing you next week. Have a great weekend. Thank you, Judge. Thank you. Thank you. So coming up on Monday,

Alster Crook will not be with us until Tuesday, because of a lecture he's giving in Europe. But Ray McGovern and Larry Johnson will be with us. And we expect a new guest, former person in charge of pursuing drug runners in Latin America, who will tell us why the president is committing murder. Justin Politano for judging freedom. Thank you.