Judging Freedom - INTEL-Roundtable w/Larry Johnson & Ray McGovern

Episode Date: November 27, 2023

Special Thanksgiving weekend editionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Thanks for watching! Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. This is Thanksgiving Day weekend 2023, and it's our Intelligence Community Roundtable with my dear friends and colleagues, Larry Johnson and Ray McGovern. Larry, Ray, welcome here. Always a pleasure. Thanks, Chuck. Larry, how badly has Ukraine lost the war with Russia? And how long will it take before the neocons and the policy makers in the Biden administration and the money spenders will come to realize their colossal mistakes?

Two different questions. I think Ukraine's actual ability to sustain this war is probably going to end by January, maybe February at the latest. A lot of it hinges upon how much financial support the West can supply, but already the West is balking at that with the exception of Germany. And even verbal promises don't necessarily guarantee the arrival. On the neocon side, though, they're never going to give up. You could stake them naked in the desert, pour oil all over them,

set it on fire, and they would still say, there's no fire. I don't feel any heat. You know, it's just they are out of touch with reality. And they're so convinced that they have some sort of holy mission to carry out that requires the United States to dominate the world and Russia and China to disappear. They're never going to relent. They will never let up. Ray, so in the past week, Foreign Minister David Cameron of Great Britain, who's the former Prime Minister, spent two days with Vladimir Zelensky, the president of Ukraine, and Lloyd Austin, the American secretary of defense, spent two days with him. news or a political pap, but my question to you has to do with your former colleagues. Would the CIA have known in advance so as to brief Secretary Austin, would MI6 have known in advance so as to brief Foreign Minister Cameron what Zelensky's attitude is and what he would say when they told him the bad news, if you follow me. I do follow you, Judge.

And, you know, I have to confess that Zelensky is so public and such news coming out of Ukraine and Kiev in particular is so plentiful that if they don't know what to expect, well, they're just not paying attention. Now, what I think Cameron and Austin are saying is, look, you know, we've really given a good try. You've really given a good try. We ain't got no money, more, and we don't have more ammunition. And so see what kind of deal you might be able to make. And, you know, think about it, Zelensky, because, you know, there comes a time to fold the cards. Now, with respect to Cameron, the British pretty much are running the protective cordon around Zelensky, as I understand it. I imagine Cameron would say, you know, we're hurting for money, too. We may have to return those security guards that we give you. And, you know, what happens to you then? So, you know, these games are played all the time.

But I think you're right, quite right, Judge. It's bad news they're giving him. And what the neocons are going to do when it's finally clear that they've lost, well, it all depends on what the Russians do. And if the Russians continue just to a trip, could we get into the election season that way? I suppose we could, but who knows? Between the two of you, there is a lot of hands-on experience in this end of the world, and your answers were generally in sync with each other. But if you read the Washington Post, it said Cameron went to reassure them and Austin went to promise the aid that he needs. That has got to be a bald-faced, CIA-planted lie, Larry. Well, maybe.

And it could be they're actually telling him that. But who's going to use those weapons? They've already admitted they don't have the manpower. Just the other day, they had one of their intelligence professionals were saying, you know, we need to impose a draft 17 to 70. Wow. 70-year-old men out there trying to, you know, carry a 60-pound pack with an automatic weapon ain't going to happen.

So that's what I'm saying. They're trying to avoid the inevitable. But the reality is anybody can, the Washington foreign policy establishment, for the most part, has read the tea leaves. And Ukraine and Zelensky are not long for this war. They have no means to sustain the conflict. That's what people aren't getting.

Ray, when we started with these interviews uh probably around the time the war started in february of last year you and larry and even our other former intel folks told us the same thing the the analyst correct me if i'm wrong the analysts gather what they believe is truthful information from variety of sources. By the time it makes its way all the way up across the ocean to Langley and then to the White House, it's what the senior people think the president wants to hear, irrespective of what the analysts got or the officers got, and irrespective of how they risked their lives to get it. Has that changed since it is now obvious that Ukraine is lost?

Judge, the intelligence system is totally corrupted. At which level it's most corrupt doesn't really matter. If people are telling their superiors what they want to hear, well, that's what happens at the top here. Witness the fact that Bill Burns, who some people thought might be the adult in the room, has declared publicly that not only has Russia lost in Ukraine, but the ineptitude of the Soviet military has been made manifest to the whole world. Give me a break. It's just the opposite.

Why would he be saying that? Because his boss is delusional, okay? Didn't Biden say today again that Hamas had beheaded some children? I mean, the guy is not compass mentis. And so they could say these things. What they think they achieved by saying them was just a little bit more time. And maybe they'll get out of office in another year or maybe before with rats deserting the sinking ship. A Turkish orchestrated flotilla of about a thousand boats, commercial and personal, not military, is making its way as we speak towards the eastern Mediterranean in an effort to bring food, fuel, medicine, water, supplies to the Gazans in the southern part of Gaza.

What is this all about? Is this President Erdogan slowly, step by step, using NGOs, non-government organizations, beginning to get involved in the conflict? Well, it wouldn't be the first time this, you know, in 2014, when Israel was in Gaza at that time, the Turks ginned up a humanitarian mission. And as I recall, I think the Israelis killed at least one Turkish sailor or one individual. There's the ship. They killed 10. They injured 100.

And the Israeli government eventually forked over 20 million bucks. Yeah, so this time it will be different. Back then, Turkey was willing to overlook Israel's genocide, Israel's human rights abuses. Not now. Erdogan has invested too much with his mouth in terms of supporting the Palestinians that he cannot back down. So what this creates is a real interesting situation, really dangerous situation, that as the Turks press on, the Israelis may try to stop them and stop them with firearms, with sea guns. And at that point, then you look at the possibility of an actual hot war between Turkey and Israel.

So I see the United States will be trying to referee to see if they can avoid that. But again, I think this is a case like where everybody's got all of their dander up, all their the intention of the Turks is, what military they have, what the Israeli Navy or Marines, I don't even know who does this, are prepared to do. In other words, does Joe Biden, Lloyd Austin, Tony Blinken, Jake Sullivan, Weber have a report so they know what to expect, what's happening here? A thousand ships, it's got to be a couple of thousand human beings. Sure, Judge. Mossad advises the U.S. intelligence community, as they do advise directly people like Jacob Sullivan and others. And the U.S. community buys this kind of thing. Now, it's the tail wagging the dog, okay?

Back in 2010, when the Mavi Mamara was attacked by Israel, killing those Turks that you mentioned, and one U.S. citizen, the U.S. didn't say diddly. When we tried to sail out of Greece the next year in June of 2011, we were told, nope, you can't sail because the Greeks need a loan from the INF. And Obama says, you won't get that loan if you go out into them and get attacked by Israel. We don't want Israel to attack you, but we can't prevent it. So you stay in harbor here.

Brand new ship, all outfitted, all kinds of people on that ship, on that little boat. We don't want Israel to attack you, but we can't prevent it. So you stay in harbor here. Brand new ship, all outfitted, all kinds of people on that ship, on that little boat. And we couldn't get out of the Athens port there. Why? Because when Obama went to Netanyahu and said, look, please, please don't attack these guys. This is a U.S. boat. He said, forget about it. If they come into our purview, we're not going to guarantee anything. So we were restrained. We weren't allowed to get out there. And that one U.S. citizen that was killed a year before,

nobody took up that cause. It's a long time since you could say, I am a Roman citizen, or I am an American citizen. Right, right. Seriously. Larry, is this likely to lead to a larger conflagration? Let me restate what I said earlier. Is this President Erdogan's way of starting something without being overt about it? I mean, these are NGOs. I don't even know if they have weapons on these boats.

Yeah, they're not armed, but... heard about it? I mean, these are NGOs. I don't even know if they have weapons on these boats. Yeah, they're not armed, but- I'm sorry, say again, please. Yeah, they're not armed. These are not, my understanding is they're not military vessels. Now, what would be interesting is if Turkey asked Russia to provide it with a naval escort to go forward. That would be a significant escalation. But, you know, I think Erdogan's playing chicken with Israel on this, but he's going to do it in a way that he's going to force the Israeli hand to attack more civilian targets. That's what the Israelis have been doing. They've been attacking civilian targets, claiming that anybody that is in the vicinity of Gaza is a Hamas terrorist.

Even, you know, newborn babies are Hamas terrorists. It's just, it's so, it's so obscene what they're saying and doing and getting away with up to this point. So now with the ceasefire starting to take place, you're going to see efforts to push more humanitarian aid in there. And Israel, I never discount the ability of the Israelis to make a terrible mistake. You know, they shot up the USS Liberty years ago. Oh, that was a catastrophe. And the U.S. just went home with its tail between its legs.

Ray has written and, as you know, spoken extensively on that. We call for joint efforts of the international community, aimed at de-escalating the situation, a ceasefire and finding a political solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. And the BRICS states and countries of the region could play a key role in this work. He's obviously talking about a two-state solution, Ray, or is he sending some sort of a subliminal message to Joe Biden? Part of what he said, and we didn't get on the clip, was there are some unnamed players here who would like to see the war extended and more people involved.

I don't know if he's talking to Joe Biden when he says that. Ray? Well, I think he's taking the ostensibly responsible position, you know, when he sees fire. He's only supported by about 95% of the countries in the world. I don't see much significance in that particular clip, other than the fact that he's going on record saying, look, the BRICS can help here. Even India, if you be a little bit more malleable and a little bit more helpful, we can do this as a unit. And that's big because the BRICS are the

big new element on the international scene. So Larry and Ray, I want to play a clip from Matt Miller, the State Department spokesperson, praising the Chinese. And then we're going to play a clip from President Xi, which basically challenges everything that Matt Miller said. But the most significant thing, and I'm playing this to raise your blood pressures this holiday weekend, the most significant thing Miller says is that the very last five or six words

that when he and Secretary Blinken were in Asia and speaking with the Chinese foreign minister, they said to Blinken, the U.S. is the indispensable nation. Now, I can't imagine the Chinese saying that, but I'll let you listen to what he said and then we'll analyze. We would welcome China playing a constructive role in the Middle East. The Secretary has made this clear personally in his conversations with Wang Yi. I called Wang Yi on our first trip to the Middle East and said, if there's anything they can do to prevent the conflict from widening in terms of using the lines of communications that they have available to countries in the Middle East, we would welcome that. He followed up on that conversation with Wang Yi is here,

and they had a very productive conversation about it. To the larger question, though, I would say one of the things that we heard repeatedly from every party with which we engaged on our last trip was the indispensability of the United States. Come on, who's going to believe that the Chinese spoke about the indispensability of the United States. Come on. Who's going to believe that the Chinese spoke about the indispensability of the United States? They don't believe it. It's not true. They would never utter articulate it, Ray. No, not unless there was a mistranslation. If the Chinese said, yeah, the US is important, well, somebody could translate that into the U.S. That's what the neocons want to do.

They want to be indispensable. That's what they told Joe Biden. That's why he keeps saying it. He said, I don't know if Albright had it all correctly right. Indispensable. We're exceptional. Well, we're exceptional in the case that we're just non-compassmentists when it comes to having a lucid foreign policy. And the next few months are going to show that in spades.

Before you respond, Larry, we're going to play President Xi, who obviously doesn't say anything of the sort about American indispensability. I will read the subtitles for the benefit of our friends who have this on audio only, and then I want you to weigh in, Ray, and then we're going to go to another subject. I mean, Larry, the root cause of the Palestinian-Israeli situation is the fact that the right of the Palestinian people to statehood, their right to existence, and their right of return have long been ignored. I have emphasized on many occasions that the only viable way to break the cycle of Palestinian-Israeli conflict is the two-state solution. And the restoration of the legitimate national rights of Palestine and the establishment of an independent state of Palestine.

There can be no sustainable peace and security in the Middle East without a just solution to the question of Palestine. China calls for early convening of an international peace conference, an international peace conference that is more authoritative to build international consensus for peace and work toward an early solution to the question of Palestine that is comprehensive and sustainable. Ooh, did you hear him say the U.S. is indispensable, Larry? No, and in fact, he was meeting with the Arab foreign ministers and representatives of the Organization of Islamic Countries,

who had had a meeting about a week and a half prior to this in Saudi Arabia. And at that meeting, you had Iranian prime minister meeting with MBS. And then you also had Bashar al-Assad of Syria meeting with Erdogan of Turkey. They'd been at odds. So they took that on the road to China. And China was emphasizing that he was aligning with them, recognizing what they wanted and really opposing U.S. policy. And then those same foreign ministers and OIC reps, they went to Moscow, had the same sit-down with Lavrov and then with Putin, which I believe that previous clip you showed with Putin also was addressing those individuals. So if the United States is so damn indispensable, why is it that

when Anthony Blinken showed up in Turkey to meet with the Turks. They sent like the deputy mayor of Palookaville to meet him at the airport. You know, if you think you're dispensable or indispensable, you send your top guy. You don't send the water boy from the junior varsity team. Got it. Got it. 60 years ago this weekend, the country was torn apart over the assassination of President Kennedy. And all of a sudden, Lyndon Johnson was the president of the United States and Lee Harvey Oswald was eventually murdered. And on and on and on this goes. Ray, you have studied this at great length, so I'll ask you point blank.

Who murdered John Fitzgerald Kennedy? The evidence is very clear that the CIA masterminded the whole thing. There were people co-opted from the Secret Service, people from the military. There were people involved in this plot that have not yet been revealed, but the evidence is crystal clear that Alan Dulles, former CIA director, orchestrated this thing and then insinuated himself onto the Warren Commission, ran the Warren Commission, and came up with that cockamamie idea that was just one bullet and was fired by Oswald's rifle. We're getting to the bottom of it now. And the question is, is today's CIA much different from those guys? And unfortunately, it isn't. In my view, it should be abolished. There should be some independent analytical

group set apart where they could tell the president what's up. And if you want to overthrow governments and do other, well, put them in the Pentagon where they belong. But the days of this bifurcated analysis and operations agency, a historic fault in terms of the two sides never being able to be in the same agency. Those are over. And we should recognize this 60th anniversary and the terrible consequences of what happened. Larry, do you and do modern day agents, officers, and analysts generally agree with Ray McGovern, with what our friend Ray just said?

Well, I'm not sure a lot of analysts would necessarily agree with Ray. I agree with Ray. The evidence, at least the medical evidence, I don't know who killed Kennedy. We could speculate as far as people that had motive and means to do so. What is clear, though, is that the medical evidence from the autopsy makes it very clear that it was not a bullet fired by Lee Harvey Oswald that killed Kennedy. So you have to proceed from the basis of those facts. But Ray is exactly right about, you know, the CIA needs to be burned to the ground right now and rebuilt

because once you introduce this concept of foreign operations, we're not talking about the task of a foreign case, of a U.S. case officer going overseas, trying to recruit people who work in sensitive government positions for other countries to give us information, to spy for us. We're not talking about that. We're talking about people who embark on these projects, such as to fund the Contras in Central America and to sell weapons to Iran.

Selling weapons to Iran while we're declaring Iran as a terrorist state, that's what the CIA was doing. And anybody who would attempt to interfere with that would then receive either pushback or worse. So the entire process has been corrupted by the operations taking precedent over intelligence. Why has, Ray, no president from George W. Bush up to Joe Biden, including Donald Trump, who promised that he would do this many times? He promised me personally and privately, but forget about me, probably said publicly. And then of course he changed his mind. Why has no president revealed these files? That's a simple one, Judge. Fear. F-E-A-R. Of whom and or of what? Of the people who run the CIA and have this bevy of emigres and other people from places like wherever, okay, including the mafia, at their beck and call to do you in

if you go out of line. Now, you know, when Trump came in, okay, before he was inaugurated, Senator Schumer told Rachel Maddow, hey, Rachel, invite me on. And she did. January 2, 2017. Senator Schumer, you say that Trump is not really reacting, not acting like a smart guy. What do you mean? Schumer. I thought he was a smart guy, but he's taking on the intelligence community. And they have six ways to send it. They get back at you.

Got it. Got it. Rachel. Okay. We'll go to the next one. What is that? That was a warning. Someday we'll talk about the next What is that That was a warning Someday we'll talk about this

At great length I don't want to ruin people's Holiday weekend A lot of people are talking about it Because it's the 60th anniversary My dear friends thank you for everything you do for the show Everything you do for all of our viewers Enjoy this great Quintessentially American holiday weekend.

We'll see you next week. You too, Judge. Thank you. We're almost at 240,000 subscribers. We'll hit a quarter of a million by Christmas. Thanks to you. Have a great holiday weekend. Judge Napolitano for Judging Freedom. Thank you.