Judging Freedom - Is the Ukraine War Spreading into Russia_ Ray McGovern, fmr CIA

Episode Date: May 30, 2023

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Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Tuesday, May 30th, 2023. It's 10 o'clock in the morning here on the East Coast of the United States. I'm back in the U.S. It's always, of course, good to be back, and it's always, of course, good to be joined. It's as if today was Monday, where Monday was yesterday, it was a holiday. It's always good to be joined by my dear friend, one of the more courageous people I know, Ray McGovern. Ray, always a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us. You're welcome. Did you celebrate an alternative Memorial Day this past

weekend? Yes, Judge. This is actually pretty serious. We veterans who know about war despise the observances that sort of get the people who send us into war off the hook and people saying, well, thank you for your service when they have no idea what that has done to a lot of my colleagues, for example. So here in the Triangle area of North Carolina, we have an alternative celebration, so to speak. And I had the honor of being asked to give the main address just yesterday. And basically, what did you say? Well, I wanted to do something different. And I wanted to highlight the role of racial superiority, of racism, basically, in US foreign policy.

I gave the title, what was it? Yeah, The Lily White Quest Against the Rest of the World, Racism as a Factor in US Foreign Policy. And wonder of wonders, as I'm getting ready to leave the House to go to Chapel Hill, Bruce Fine sends me a letter to the editor that he had just had published, and it was the perfect lead-in to my reminder that when Biden goes to Hiroshima, for God's sake, and he appears, you know, there's background Hiroshima, Hiroshima, and they spend 15 minutes commemorating what happened there.

When his predecessor, Obama, went to Hiroshima, he said, I'm not going to apologize. No, no, we don't apologize. We are exceptional. We don't apologize. Well, you know, that's really just sort of graded the wrong way. And so I started out with what is a full chapter in the book that Oliver Stone and Peter Kustnick wrote, The History of the United States, the alternative one, which devotes, I'll be brief here, which says that it was a decision by Harry Truman, a racist who never used anything but the N-word when referring to black people, okay, and his Secretary of State, Jimmy Burns.

Where did Jimmy Burns come from? He came from the great state of South Carolina. Who else comes from there? Well, actually, what's his name? Lizzie Graham comes from there. And who else? General William Westmoreland. And what did Westmoreland say after the war?

Well, you know, the Orientals, they don't place the same high value on death, on life. Life is cheap in the Orient, blah, blah, blah. So, you know, I had lots of evidence to prove my point, but the best was Bruce Fiennes, who said, look, Ray, make sure people know, said to everybody who read this letter to the editor, that the atomic bombs over Hiroshima and Nagasaki were completely necessary, that the top military people, including MacArthur, for God's sake, Eisenhower, Admiral Lee, all told Truman, don't do it. It's not necessary. We know the Japanese will give up. All you have to say is you can keep your damn emperor, okay? For some reason, that was really important to them,

and they would have quit. Now, why did Truman do it anyway? Because Jimmy Burns advised him, and he was the only advisor to advise him to do this. And then those generals that built the bomb, of course, and so it happened. So against all that background, here's Biden in Hiroshima, and this is an interesting place. Oh, man, we'll meet with all these high-heeled or well-heeled people, and we won't even talk about what happened here. In fact, not only will we not talk about what happened, not only will we not acknowledge, this is my view now, if you measure the number of deaths per second, that the racist Harry Truman was the greatest mass murderer in the history of the world, we'll announce from Hiroshima that we're going to send F-16s to Vladimir Zelensky. They're not our F-16s. We may have manufactured them. They're now in Wiesbaden and Berlin and outside of London, but we're going to

let our allies send them. I have incurred the wrath of many of my, when I was at Fox, Fox colleagues when I made those comments of Harry Truman and attacked from a moral as well as a legal perspective, the concept of annihilating innocence. In the case of the first bomb, it was particularly reprehensible. It was a Sunday morning, and the eye, the visual target from the plane was a Roman Catholic basilica at which mass was being celebrated. But you don't hear anybody apologizing. I mean, it's people like you and me and the thousands that are watching us now know how horrific these decisions were. But I think as I hear you, you're telling me that it's bigger than just Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

You're telling me that there has been, and I'm going to ask you if there still is, a racial animus behind American foreign policy, particularly when that foreign policy is fortified with the military. Yes, there is, Judge, and I can prove it. Why else is it so easy to get Americans to hate the yellow peril? Not the yellow peril anymore, the Chinese communists, you know? What do Chinese communists want to do? In my view, in the Bronx, we used to say, can't we we just get along I mean like how about how about a

win-win they're only a finite amount of resources in the world can we work out a deal can we share them that's beyond the pale and a lot of us is racist tinge that's why I titled this thing whatever I titled it what yeah, The Lily White West Against the Rest. Now, Russia is part of the rest of that world, and I found this little quote from Sergei Lavrov, the foreign minister, five days ago, and this is what he says. This is really interesting. Rudyard Kipling has been mentioned for different reasons. In this connection, another saying of his comes to mind. The Russian, quote, the Russian is a racial anomaly.

Anomaly. Okay. The Russian is a racial anomaly. It's easy to see how persistent this philosophy is in many of the actions of many Western politicians. Well, I'll give you something else that Kipling said. It is not wise for the Christian white to hustle the Asian brown. For the Christian riles and the Asian smiles and he weareth the Christian down. At the end of the fight lies a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased.

And the epitaph drear, a fool lies here who tried to hustle the East. You mentioned Senator Graham. I don't think we have the quote But I heard it earlier this morning When he was at a dinner in Kiev Seated next to President Zelensky Senator Graham was quoted as saying That money that we spent killing Russians

Best money we ever spent. Now, an attitude like that is going to produce, I would think, some significant blowback. I mean, can we ever expect to have diplomatic relations with Russia while Vladimir Putin is the president? Well, we can if people like Lindsey Graham meet their comeuppance. That's a long shot, but Russia plays a long game, like China. And, you know, the response for the foreign affairs spokeswoman, Maria Zakharova, was really interesting about Lindsey Graham. I printed it out this morning. I can't find it now, but she says, you know, this is what we're up against. You know,

this is crazy. This is racism. And this is obviously a very influential people, a person. We're going to have to proceed against him legally. And that's what the Russians apparently doing now, trying to find some way to say, well, this guy's a war criminal, obviously, because he thinks a dead Russian is a good Russian. How is there a racial involvement in Americans' government using Ukraine as a battering ram to get rid of Vladimir Putin. Well, it's more than racial, of course, with respect to the Russians. The Americans have been subjected to six straight years of brainwashing that Putin is the devil incarnate and the Russians are out to take over not only Ukraine, but the Baltic states and polling. Now, you know, all of that is unproven,

but most Americans believe that because of the media. So with respect to Ukraine, people just, we have to beat the Russians there. Here's some people saying, oh, before that, we have to meet them here, right? Give me a break. There's not one scintilla of evidence that it ever entered Putin's head to annex Crimea before we staged that coup on the 22nd of February 2014. Now, I uncovered something related to that I had forgotten. Putin said, Obama called me on the 21st of February 2014. Putin said this publicly. He said, and he reassured me, we've got everything under control here. we're fine, okay? Same day, Biden called Yevgeny Kovach, and he said, better get out of town and call your police off. That's what happened. The president

deceiving the president of Russia, and the vice president telling the president, the duly elected president of Ukraine, bug off, get out of town and make sure you guys don't resist. And so the young Corbis says, oh, all right. And he gets out of town. He has to be rescued by the Russians. So if you talk about double crossing and stuff, this is the personal experience that Mr. Putin has had with both Mr. Obama and Mr. Biden. Final thing here, Biden told Putin on the 30th of December 2021, Washington has no intention of deploying offensive strike missiles in Ukraine. Big deal. New Year's Eve, big celebration in Moscow. Closest Putin advisors,

Ushakov, this is great. The negotiations are off to a great start. Guess what happened? Fell off the table. Sullivan and Biden and Nolan probably whispered in Joe, Joe, you didn't, Joe, you didn't really say that, did you? Oh, yeah, I thought maybe, well, forget about it. He forgot about it. And that all happened just six, eight weeks before the war in Ukraine. So to say that it was unprovoked is really crazy. To say that he had other options is also crazy, and that's a live issue now because I raised it recently, and nobody can tell me.

Nobody can tell me what are the options. Let me show you and everyone watching us now what happened in Moscow this morning. This is one of the drones that exploded in a residential neighborhood. Now, I don't know drones. That looks like a lot to me. And I know it was in a residential neighborhood and it was a 10 minute drive from President Putin's official residence. But my question to you, Ray, is this. to deploy drones in that manner by the Ukrainians before they were deployed? And if the answer to that is yes, would Victoria Nuland and her crew have consented to it? I don't know the answers to that, but that's not the real issue here. The answer to that is what Putin thinks. Now, there are enough U.S. and other NATO officers embedded with everything that the Ukrainian military does and their secret services that Putin could not avoid thinking or concluding that, yes, this was done with the encouragement of at least the Americans that really count in Kiev.

So what does that mean? Well, you know, the U.S. let, what the U.S. said with respect to the one on 8 April, I guess it was, is that you'll over-search this, and these Ukrainians did it all by themselves. We weren't informed of that. The U.S. let ukrainians off easier now on now this time this time there were several drones and shot down no apparently damage except property damage but now uh are the russians going to say right you want us to believe that the ukrainians did this all all by themselves

well that's worse that's worse than if they did it with your permission. They're loose cannons. Are they trying to get us into a war with you guys? Well, of course they are. But Putin, pretty cool-headed. I don't think he's going to rise to the bait. Here's Victoria Nuland. Just for...

Do I have to? Here's Victoria Nuland, just for history's sake. Okay. And even as you plan for the counteroffensive, which we have been working on with you for some four or five months. We are already beginning our discussions with the Ukrainian government and with friends in Kyiv, both in the civilian side and on the military side, about Ukraine's long-term future. Let's start with the first one. The American government, I guess she talks for the State Department, not the DOD has been working on preparing the spring offensive for four or five months. Here we are at the end of May beginning of June. Where's the offensive? Number one. Number two, does it surprise you that Americans if she's being

truthful, if she's being truthful, have been involved in the planning of this offensive? And number three, what is she talking about planning for the Ukraine government for the future? Where has General Zelushnik been? Long time. He hasn't seen him for a whole month, right? Okay. What's going on there? The thing keeps being delayed. I'm sure they're going to try something, but they'll only try it because of people like Newland saying, you got to do this or else you're going to run out of money. We're not going to be able to justify more expenditures. It's come to a head now. There aren't going to be more billions of dollars given by this Congress,

I don't believe. So the same denouement that happened in Vietnam and happened in Nicaragua, finally, I think the Congress is going to tighten the purse screens and say, well, look, you know, let's make a deal. These guys are really from hunger. Where is Illusiony anyway? And Newland, yeah, she's openly admitting what we're doing. And, you know, when the general staff is advising Poutine and he's saying, well, maybe the Americans didn't know about these drones, they're going to say, wait a second. Listen to this from Newland, will you? They're planning this thing for four and five months. So it's getting pretty dangerous. Again, I think Putin is on a roll. He doesn't need to rise to this bait. He may do something serious with respect to where Zelensky works these days. But I would even say

that's not probable. He just can go along just as he is until Congress shuts down the funds. You mentioned General Zeluzhny. He was, of course, the chief of staff of the Ukraine military. And you and our other friends with experience in the military have said he is or has been respected as a military leader, not as a political hack. You have also, I think, Ray, correct me if I'm wrong, come to the conclusion that General Zeluzny suffered a life-changing injury, some sort of injury to his head when he was at the front and will never be the chief of the military again. Are you of that view? Yes, I still am. He clearly was injured.

What the Ukrainians have been trying to do is piece together old images, old photography and old video clips to show that he's still alive. So I think he's still alive. So I think he's still alive. I think he's incapacitated. And what they've shown has been transparently designed to show that the man lives. He may live. But, you know, if the Russians can be that precise in their drone strikes, well, that's damage. That's personal injury, not shooting up a bunch of buildings. So, you know, the Russians have a lot. They haven't even deployed yet. What I'm saying here is that it's really time, high time that the sophomores that advise Biden really tell them to take a look at the map, Joe.

You know, this is a really, really bad idea from the beginning. Let's get these guys to negotiate and cease fire. We still don't have an off-ramp, Ray, do we? Yeah, we do. All it takes is for Biden to realize what I just said and to lean on Zelensky and say, all right, look, we're going to settle for what we can get. The Russians will negotiate. They may use the Vatican.

They may use Erdogan in Turkey. They can use whatever they want. And the deal they're going to get is not as good as the deal we offered them back in March of 2002. Okay. But we'll deal. I don't think the Russians want to. Well, I know that the Russians don't want to take over all of Ukraine, so a deal is in the offing. Actually, Medvedev, the former

president, has spelled out three scenarios which are possible deals, so I'm hoping that before it gets still worse with F-16s and all that kind of stuff, that people come to their senses and say, well, look, we're running out of money anyway. NATO is divided. Let's deal. Raymond Goverin, always a pleasure, my dear man. Thank you for all the intellect and intel that you bring to these interviews. I look forward to them every week as, as do the many thousands,

many, many thousands that watch us. You're most welcome. More as we get it. Judge Napolitano for judging freedom. There is a problem that affects many children that I cannot solve alone. Doctora Ramos a la sala de espera Hay un problema que afecta a muchos niños que no puedo resolver sola Se llama estrés tóxico

y esto aumenta el riesgo de problemas de salud Pero hay pasos que los padres pueden tomar para superar el estrés tóxico