Judging Freedom - JFK Assassination - the CIA's Role w/Jacob Hornberger

Episode Date: August 17, 2023

JFK Assassination - the CIA's Role w/Jacob HornbergerSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

From Dallas, Texas, the flash, apparently official, President Kennedy died at 1 p.m. Central Standard Time, 2 o'clock Eastern Standard Time, some 38 minutes ago. Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Thursday, August 17th, 2023. Jacob Hornberger, longtime friend of mine, well-known lawyer, founder, and president of the Future of Freedom Foundation, and an expert because of his two highly acclaimed books and innumerable articles on the subject, an expert on the JFK assassination joins us now. Jake, always a pleasure, my dear friend. Thanks for coming on the show. Well, the honor and pleasure are all mine, Judge. Thanks for having me back on again. Of course. There are very few people who have read all that you have on JFK, and certainly I

am not one of them. In fact, I have not read your books. I have your books. I'm not going to read them until I get them autographed. I have your books. But I have read many of your articles, and I want to discuss two issues today on which you have written more significantly and more strenuously and with more evidence than almost anybody else. One is the double autopsy of JFK. We'll start with that. But the principal part of our show today, because we have some film to show the audience, will be the Zapruder film and the CIA's involvement in it. So before we get to the film, I'd like you to give us a three or four minute summary on the autopsy. What conceivable reason could there have been for a second autopsy, and how did that come about? Well, it wasn't actually a second. It was actually the primary

autopsy because in Dallas, a team of Secret Service agents, well-armed and brandishing guns, forced their way out of Parkland Hospital to prevent the Dallas County medical examiner, Dr. Earl Rose, from conducting the autopsy that was required by state law. They took the body to Air Force One, where Lyndon Johnson had already removed seats to make room for it. They flew it to Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland in order to deliver it into the hands of the military. And the goal of the military, the mission of the military, was to conduct a fraudulent autopsy. And the mission that was given to the military pathologist there was do what you need to do to make sure all the shots look like they came in from the rear. Hide any evidence of shots coming in from the front. Now, why is it that, and how is it that you can

refer to this autopsy as fraudulent, Jake? Well, let me give you some examples. They always contended that there was only one brain examination as part of the autopsy, which takes place after the formal autopsy. The Assassination Records Review Board, under Jeremy Gunn, the general counsel, and Douglas Horn, who was chief analyst for military records, determined, and this was in the 1990s, 30 years later, they determined that the pathologists had lied about that, that in fact, there were two brain examinations. But more important, the second brain examination involved a brain that did not entail John Kennedy's brain. It was a brain that obviously had been brought over from the medical

school, and that was passed off as the official brain of President Kennedy because it was consistent with shots having been fired from the rear. Now, it would be impossible to find a better example of autopsy fraud than something like that. What became of JFK? So after the autopsy, and then the head is cut open and the brain is removed, what became of JFK's true brain, the brain that was actually removed from his skull? Well, that first brain exam was held about two or three days after the formal autopsy. And at that brain exam, they sectioned it. They cut it like a loaf of bread, which is standard procedure to look at the trajectories of the bullets. The most likely outcome of what happened to the real brain of John Kennedy was that it was interred with his body at the funeral on Monday. And because that's what

Mrs. Kennedy wanted, she said, please rush this. And that was the goal to rush Monday. And because that's what Mrs. Kennedy wanted. She said, please rush this. And that was the goal to rush this. And so we don't know for certain, but that's what we surmise is that that's the real brain went in with the body. But then what happened was they had a second brain exam six or seven days later involving this substitute brain, which is now the brain that supposedly was President Kennedy's brain. We don't know exactly what happened to that one, but there's a photograph in the official record of that brain that they say, well, this is President Kennedy's brain. When they weighed it, it weighed more than the average person's brain, like 1,500 grams, the average person is 1,350. Everybody agrees that

at least 25% or up to 50% of the brain was shot out during the gunshot that hit him in the head. So there's no possibility that that second brain could possibly be John Kennedy's brain. So who did this and why did they do it? Before we get on to the Zabruder film. We're talking about the military pathologists there, three pathologists that were primarily responsible for engaging in this. And they were given the task of hiding the fact that shots were fired from the front. And the reason for that was that this is how they could get the investigation shut down, by telling people, look, there has been shots fired from the front.

Oswald is a communist. He's got connections to Cuba, the Soviet Union. That's what his trip to Mexico City was all about. We can't, we have to cover this up immediately because this is going to go to World War III. Now, you might ask yourself, well, why would we just let him get a pass on that? Well, the idea was that they go to Bobby Kennedy and they say, look, this is retaliation. You and your brother were involved with Operation Mongoose, sabotage terrorism. The CIA was trying to assassinate Castro and Castro got to your brother first.

And so that was the excuse they used to shut down the investigation immediately. The deputy attorney general Katzenbach sent out a memo on Monday saying we've got to shut this thing down immediately. And the idea was, if we don't, it'll lead to World War Three. So they tell the pathologists, do whatever you need to do to hide the fact that their shots fired from the front. And that last last series of questions before we get to the Zapruder film. Why was the CIA involved in telling the military what needed to be covered up? Well, we don't have direct evidence that the CIA was involved in the autopsy. We only have direct evidence that they were involved in the Zapruder film. But there were witnesses that said that there were men in suits who looked very sinister during the autopsy. We only have direct evidence that they were involved in the Zabruder film, but there were witnesses that said that there were men in suits who looked very sinister during the autopsy.

Colonel Fink testified in the Clay Shaw trial in 1969 under oath that he was beginning to dissect the neck wound, and somebody came over and said, don't touch that. They ordered him, don't touch it. He couldn't remember who it was. It could have been a military officer that was higher rank. It could have been CIA. But to me, the CIA, they were the smart guys. I mean, these were the Ivy League graduates. They were specializing in assassination since the time the CIA got established. They would be the ones smart enough to orchestrate the overall plan in here, including the fraudulent autopsy. Okay, we're going to run the Zapruder film. We're going to run it twice, and then you

begin analyzing it for us. Go ahead, Gary. This is the film that everybody has seen. Now, what just happened there, Jake? Here it is again. Here it is again. We see the motorcycles. We see the turn in the road, but we don't see the car making the turn. All of a sudden, it is suddenly there where the motorcycles had been. Take it from there. That's the first alteration of the film that they did. Now, when I say they altered the film, they didn't really alter the original film. They made what's called an optical. They use an optical printer to make a copy of the film that deleted those frames. See, it's very strange when you look at that, how it just jumps over to

the presidential limousine, but it doesn't show the presidential limousine making the turn. So who would explain the chain of custody of the film from Abraham Zapruder to the CIA, to wherever the film ended up? Zapruder makes a deal with Life magazine on Saturday, right after the assassination, the day after the assassination, November 23rd. He sells the print rights to Life magazine for $50,000. He delivers the original Zabruder film to Life magazine's representative, Richard Stolle. He retains a first generation copy. Stolle puts the Zabruder film on a plane to Chicago because that's where Life Magazine's printing presses are located, publishing house. But, and that's the official story to this day, that it went to the Life Magazine's printing house. What actually happened was the CIA diverted the film on Saturday afternoon

to Washington, D.C., where it's delivered to the CIA's National Photographic Interpretation Center, top secret operation. And it's there on Saturday night with a team headed by a top photo analyst called Dino Brugioni. So why did the CIA do that? And how do we know that they diverted the film? What became of the people in Chicago waiting for something they had just spent 50 grand to acquire? Well, we got to keep in mind who the publisher of Life Magazine was, and that was C.D. Jackson. He was an express asset of the CIA. He had been working with the CIA for years under Operation Mockingbird. Henry Luce, the founder of Time Life, he was another CIA-aligned person. So it provided no difficulty at all to get C.D. Jackson on the phone saying, we need the film over here. Jackson

would have said, yes, sir. We know that it was diverted over on Saturday because of the top CIA official named Dino Brugioni. Now, Brugioni is this renowned photo analyst. I mean, he is renowned in CIA circles. He's famous. You can Google him. He's got all kinds of awards. He was in the Cuban Missile Crisis analyzing the photographs. He came forward in the late 2000s. That's how long they kept this secret. And he disclosed that he was brought the original Zabruder film there at NITPIC, National Photographic Interpretation Center, the CIA's facility, on Saturday night, the night after the assassination. His job was to examine it, along with two men who were representing themselves to be Secret Service agents who

brought him the film, and to look at the film, make blowups of frames, post them on briefing boards. And from then, those two Secret Service agents left with the film, and they went to Rochester, New York. What's in Rochester, New York? Rochester, New York was a top secret CIA operation. The CIA was in partnership with Kodak. Kodak's research and development program there, that was their national headquarters, had a facility called Hawkeye Works. And in Hawkeye Works, they had a non-classified division and then a classified division.

And the classified division was the CIA. And nobody knew this. It was top secret until the 1990s. But at Hawkeye Works, they could do anything with film that Hollywood could do, including using an optical printer, what was called an optical printer, to make a high-quality, super-quality copy of a film, delete frames, do artwork on certain frames. They could do anything Hollywood could do. And the purpose of taking the film to Rochester was to do that. Now, let me emphasize, there's no evidence that Kodak personnel were involved

in this at all. This is entirely a CIA operation. So of what did the alterations consist? Deletion of frames and artwork on certain frames. So they delete the wide turn that we just saw because the wide turn violated all CIA, I mean, Secret Service protocols. They should never have had that on the route. People said they even had to practically go up on the sidewalk to make the turn. So in other words, the car is creeping to an almost slow rate of speed there. They needed to delete that because it's incriminating. Secondly, 59 witnesses testified, or didn't testify, they stated that the car, the limousine made a complete stop or a near stop. 59. There is no stop or near stop in the motorcade, in the film.

So, Jake, we're talking about a stop or a near stop as they're making the turn. This is before the president is shot. No, after they make the turn, after the first shot rings out, the driver of the car, William Greer, Secret Service agent, steps on the brakes. Well, shouldn't he have stepped on the gas to get the hell out of there? Of course. Of course. That makes common sense. He stepped on the brakes. 59 witnesses said he did. That's not in the Zabruder film. There is no possibility. Let's watch the film again, because the editing job by today's standards is so sloppy it's so obvious we go right from the motorcycles at the turn

to the car all of a sudden like it came down from a helicopter yeah yeah this is huge jump how how How far or how distant in time is he killed or shot from the end of the film? Well, he's shot right as he's approaching that sign there. I don't think we see the shot as he's approaching the sign, but when he's coming out from the sign, you can tell him he's reaching for his throat. And after that first shot rings out, Greer steps on the brakes, stops until the shot hits him in the head, and then Greer steps on the accelerator. And I should also mention that Greer's partner, Roy Kellerman, who's sitting in the passenger seat, he's supposed to jump over the seat as soon as he hears a shot and cover the president with his body. So what did he do? He sat there like a bump in a log and just stared until the gunshot that hit Kennedy in the head. See, Kennedy could have survived that first shot, the shot that hit him in the neck.

But once the headshot came in, then they step on the accelerator and head on to Parkland. Right, Gary, let's let's look at it again. Feel free to talk over this, Jake. Yeah. So you see this immediate weird jump here. That's where they deleted the frames with respect to the turn. Then, boom. See? They deleted those frames.

Then, after this sign here, they delete more frames because the limousine, like I say, made a stop or a complete stop until Kennedy's hit in the head. They could do that at Hawkeye Works. They had what was called an aerial optical printer. And then they also had to hide shots fired from the front. They had the same mission

that the autopsy people had. And Kennedy had this massive exit-sized hole in the back of his head. All the doctors at Parkland attested to this. Even doctors and the nurses and the Secret Service agent, Clint Hill, they've all said he had this massive exit-sized hole. Even witnesses at the Bethesda morgue said the same thing. They painted over that hole with a black patch. And so that's what they could do also with this optical printer and what was called aerial imaging. Was the president dead before they brought him to the hospital?

Not technically, but for all practical purposes, yes. There was no possibility of survival whatsoever because of that headshot. And how did the CIA come to be involved in any of this? Would the CIA have planned or been aware of the route that the vehicle was going to take from Love Field to Dealey Plaza? Oh, it's a virtual certainty that they orchestrated the route because everything was, it was a perfect ambush. I mean, absolutely perfect ambush. And, and they had the, usually you have the photography video car with all the pros in front of the limousine so they can capture the president. He's interacting with the crowd. Somebody put that,

that, that photography van, several cars back in the motorcade. And so that when it comes into Dealey Plaza, the only films you have and the only photographs primarily are from amateurs. And then they, they didn't close the windows of the skyscrapers there. They, they violated every protocol. It was the perfect place for an ambush.

Was Gina Brugioni interrogated about this? How, how this sudden, what appears to our 2023 eyes, as obvious and sloppy editing happened? Not Dino Brugioni. Not on that particular issue. What Brugioni attested to was that he was shown by Douglas Horn and Peter Janney, another author, assassination researcher. They showed him the

extant film, the film that purports to be the original, the one you're just looking at. And he looked at that and he says, no, no, no, that is not the Zubruder film I saw. The one I saw showed his brain and tissue coming straight up in the air, about three feet high. He says it was the most shocking and remarkable part of the film. And he says, not only that, but that film that you're showing me, the Extant film, only has one frame for the headshot. He says, I'm telling you, there were multiple frames for that headshot. So they deleted frames with respect to the headshot,

and then they used artwork to paint over this pink splotch on there. And that's where, you know, in my article and in my book, An Encounter with Evil, the Abraham Zabruder story, I cite two expert Hollywood witnesses. I have an interview with them published there where they said this may have passed muster 50 years ago, but this is child's play here. They said there's no question that this is artwork that's been painted on that particular frame 313, the headshot. Where were the shooters? Impossible to know, but the probability, it's almost a virtual certainty that they were both in the front and in the back. When you're going to kill the king, you got to make sure you complete the job. And this was a standard military ambush.

They were shooting from different directions to make sure that they actually killed him. Did the CIA murder John Fitzgerald Kennedy? They orchestrated and carried it out. And the people that who did the shooting, there's no question that they were there at the behest and under the guidance and control of both the CIA and the military. This was a joint operation. It was what was called a national security state regime change operation. No

different from the assassination of Congo leader Patrice Lumumba or Chilean General René Schneider. Same principle. Now I'm going to get into just briefly a slight ancillary area here, which you and I have never discussed. Was LBJ involved in any of this? There's no question about it. And we know that because of what happened there at Parkland that I mentioned earlier. Johnson was alluding to the fact that this could be the first stage of a nuclear attack by the Soviet Union, which was certainly a possibility. But when he gets to the airport after Kennedy's declared dead, he lolligags there for a long time, waiting for the casket to come that he has ordered to be brought out of Parkland without permitting an autopsy to be conducted. That indicates that he clearly knew that this was not any possibility of a Soviet attack because of his lollygagging.

Therefore, he was lying about that possibility. And that's how we know that he knew that there was no possibility of a Soviet attack. Otherwise, he'd have gotten into the air immediately if there was even just a 1% chance in his mind. And then he's the guy that delivers the body into the hands of the military. He didn't have to do that. They've got pathologists in Maryland, Washington, Virginia, top quality pathologists. What business did the military judge have in this? This was a state murder case. It was not a federal crime to assassinate the president at that time. The military, the CIA, nobody had jurisdiction at the federal level, and yet the military took control because of Lyndon Johnson. You've devoted a good chunk of your career to examining this. Do you think we'll ever know

what happened? We know what happened. We already know what happened, and this is how we know what happened. You've got a fraudulent film that was done under the auspices of the CIA. You've got a fraudulent autopsy that was done under the auspices of the military. There is no innocent explanation for a fraudulent film and a fraudulent autopsy. Nobody's ever come up with one. Nobody ever will. They necessarily equate to criminal culpability in the assassination itself. Tell us briefly about your two books. Gary will put a full screen up. An Encounter with Evil, The Abraham Zabruder Story. I consider this the best work that I've

ever done. It's getting rave reviews on Amazon. It delves into all that we've talked about today. The fraudulent autopsy, as well as the main theory of the thesis of the book, is the fraudulent film., as well as the main theory of the thesis of the book is the fraudulent film. And your other book? This is our all-time bestseller at the Future of Freedom Foundation, The Kennedy Autopsy. It's based on a fantastic five-volume work by Douglas Horn, who served on the Assassination Records Review Board, called Inside the Assassination Records Review Board. This is a synopsis of Horn's watershed five-volume

work, and it's an easy read. I'd highly recommend it to everyone. Jacob Hornberger, you're doing the work of the angels by exposing the truth. The audience should know you and I have been friends for many, many years. I love your work and deeply appreciate the time you've spent with us. Thank you very much. Well, that sure means a lot to me, Judge. Thank you so much. And thanks for having me on again. Of course. Of course. If you like what you saw, like and subscribe. We're up to 183,000 subscribers. 200,000 by Labor Day is our goal. We're marching there. Judge Napolitano for judging freedom, looking out for your Liberty. Thanks for watching!