Judging Freedom - Kyle Anzalone: Israeli War Cabinet On Fire

Episode Date: January 14, 2024

Kyle Anzalone: Israeli War Cabinet On FireSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Thank you. Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Thursday, January 11th, 2024. Kyle Lanzalone joins us from Antiwar.com. Kyle, always a pleasure. Welcome back to the cameras. I'm glad to be back on the show today. Oh, thank you. How strong do you believe is the complaint called an application, but it's actually a

complaint filed by the South African government against the Israeli government alleging acts of genocide in Gaza. I believe the case that South Africa is making is very strong. You have statements from a lot of Israeli officials that say, you know, we want to resettle the Palestinians outside of Gaza, or some who say the Palestinians living in Gaza are human animals and others who say they should all be killed. And so when you have statements from high ranking government officials saying just that, then you run into the problem that it sounds an awful lot like you want to carry out a genocide. And the facts on the ground are absolutely brutal. Most of the infrastructure in Gaza has been

destroyed, 23,000 or more dead, almost 10,000 children. The bombing, even by President Biden's administration, is indiscriminate. And so when you're conducting that many war crimes, the case against genocide with the rhetoric is going to be very strong. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if it's going to change Israel's behavior on its own, but it certainly is mounting pressure on Tel Aviv and Washington that this has to end. Well, you're in good company. Professor John Mearsheimer, who had been arguing for two months that these were war crimes and not genocide, is now of the view that it is genocide, largely for the reasons that you articulated, that in that complaint are quotations verbatim that can't be disputed,

quotations that circled the globe from Israeli officials saying horrific things like bury them alive, burn them alive, turn it into a soccer field, we need the beaches. There doesn't seem to be any question about what the intent is. Do you think this is all the fault of Benjamin Netanyahu, or do you think that he is a tool of the most extreme members of his coalition? Obviously, a different form of government than we have here. If that coalition breaks apart, if those most extreme members leave, he doesn't have a majority in the Knesset, and he's no longer the prime minister. So Netanyahu bears a lot of responsibility for what's happening here, not only for his reaction to October 7th and the brutal indiscriminate military campaign that's happened. And even he has called for finding other countries to absorb the Palestinians. And so that certainly sounds like an

endorsement of ethnic cleansing. And Israeli media have reported that Netanyahu is not against some other Israeli officials who are seeking African countries to take payments in exchange for hosting the Palestinians. So there are certainly a lot of things that Netanyahu is really responsible for, as well as creating the conditions for October 7th by propping up Hamas in Gaza for decades and, of course, making the conditions in Gaza so inhospitable for the Palestinians that drove so many people to joining the ranks of a militant group that was willing to conduct the October 7th attack. However, as you mentioned, there's a lot of pressure on Netanyahu from the further right elements in his government, but also our president, President Joe Biden, who has given Netanyahu the green light that he needs. You know, certainly the extent of the Israeli military operations could not be what they have been without the U.S. support. They are using a lot of U.S. bombs. And certainly with all the other diplomat support and stuff the U.S. provides to Israel, it seems that Netanyahu would have to end his bombing campaign awfully quickly if Biden told him to.

You wrote an interesting piece at Antiwar.com about a very chaotic cabinet meeting of the Israeli war cabinet over the weekend, which was reported on by the Financial Times. What happened at that cabinet meeting and what was the chaos about and what was the outcome? Yeah, so at the cabinet meeting, the Israeli Defense Forces, the IDF represented, proposed and pushed forward a probe into the October 7th attack as far as why it happened. And the reporting is that the Israeli military feels that the fact that they haven't done a probe yet has started to place a lot of blame on the reporting that's come out on the Israeli military for the attack. And so they see the probe as the way to at least deflect some of the blame onto

other elements in Israel. Well, those other elements are, of course, the Israeli government led by Netanyahu, but also the far-right ministers of that government. And so they do not want this investigation to go forward, and they slam the Israeli military for proposing it. And of course, that proposal followed a lawsuit filed by some of the survivors of the Nova Music Festival, which is, of course, the rave that was happening near Gaza on October 7th. And they say that there was ample opportunity for the Israeli military to protect the concert goers. And that's where a lot of the civilians that died on October 7th, I think over 200 of them died. And so if that was prevented, it could have almost cut the civilian casualties caused on October 7th in half, and that didn't happen. So is the IDF going to investigate the government? I mean, in America, this would be like the Pentagon investigating the White House. It would be unheard of, but I realize that their system of government is

different there. Contrary to what Prime Minister Netanyahu and his hard right supporters in the cabinet want, is this investigation of how did October 7th come about by the IDF going to happen? It's unclear at this point. To me, Judge, when you're looking at the political conditions in Israel, it seems like the Israeli war cabinet has an awful lot of power. And so, you know, this may be something that the Israeli Supreme Court weighs in on or something like that. But at this point, it's unclear, you know, if it'll progress and then how long it'll really take and how much the Israeli government could stonewall any results,

you know, coming out or becoming public or how they could distort them and really just turn it into more state propaganda. Here's the opening statement. This is cut number 13, Sonia. Here's the opening statement made earlier today at The Hague in the trial of South Africa versus Israel. This is the lead lawyer for South Africa addressing the court. The violence and the destruction in Palestine and Israel did not begin on the 7th of October 2023. The Palestinians have experienced systematic oppression and violence for the last 76 years. On 6 October 2023 and every day since October the 7th, 2023. In the Gaza 76 years, on 6 October 2023 and every day since October 7, 2023. In the Gaza Strip, at least since 2004, Israel continues to exercise control over the airspace, territorial waters, land crossing, water, electricity and civilian infrastructure, as well as over key government functions.

No armed attack on a state territory, no matter how serious, even an attack involving atrocity crimes, can provide any justification for or defense to breaches to the Convention, whether as a matter of law or morality. Israel's response to the 7th of October 2023 attack has crossed this line and give rise to the breaches of the convention. Very interesting argument that atrocities were committed before October 7th and arguably provoked it, as well as those that have been committed after October 7th and arguably provoked it, as well as those that have been committed after October 7th. I can't imagine what Israel's defense would be. This sounds like a slam-dunk case of genocide. Does it to me? Does it to you? Yeah, I agree. It goes with, I think,

a really powerful two-prong argument there. The first is, of course, everybody wants to look at what Israel is doing in Gaza now in the vacuum of October 7th onward, when in reality there's been a long-term occupation of Gaza. You know, first a natural military occupation with soldiers deployed there, but then, you know, they were just fessed off and really cut off from the rest of the world by the Israeli government. Even if they peacefully tried to go to the walls of the Gaza Strip, they were shot by Israeli soldiers. And so this was, you know, a serious occupation that they were suffering. And that's really important context. But he says, you know, even if you want to ignore that, if you look at what happened since October 7th, there's clearly war crimes and genocide going on here. And so he kind of gets Israel on both points. You can't look at it in vacuum, but even if you did, what you're doing is still

disproportionate, immoral, and horrific. Here's the position of the United States government on this. It's tough to take this with a straight face. It's so absurd. Cut number 16, Admiral Kirby calling the complaint meritless. South Africa's filed this 84-page lawsuit against Israel, accusing them of genocide. Israel says that this is blood libel. Does Washington agree? And where does this put Washington and Pretoria? We find this submission meritless,

counterproductive, and completely without any basis in fact whatsoever. Well, how can he possibly say that unless he's concerned about the United States becoming a co-defendant? Right. And Secretary of State Antony Blinken made similar comments and actually expanded on them a little bit, saying that not only was it counterproductive, but harmful for the Palestinians, that this is somehow going to prevent them getting aid. And so, you know, this very Orwellian propaganda that the White House is trying to roll out by, you know, exposing the genocide committed against the Palestinians, that's somehow harmful to the Palestinians, is just absurd and really disgusting. But that's, you know, where the White House is.

Here's another lawyer for South Africa making another opening argument to the court also this morning at The Hague. And in his opening argument, he embeds Israeli soldiers dancing and chanting in Gaza at the deaths of Gazans and the destruction of their homes. Oh, I'm sorry. This is cut number 14, Sonia. On 7 December 2023, Israeli soldiers proved that they understood the Prime Minister's message to remember what the Amalek has done to you as genocider. They were recorded by journalists dancing and singing. We know our motto, they are no uninvolved, that they obey one commandment, to wipe off the seed of Amalek.

The Prime Minister's invocation of Amalek is being used by soldiers to justify the killing of civilians including children. These are the soldiers repeating the inciting words of their Prime Minister Netanyahu's reference to Amalek and alleged the biblical experience in which God the Father told the Jews to slaughter the Hebrews, as they were known then, to slaughter their opponents, and to compare that to the present, I would think it's going to come back to bite him. If you listen carefully to what that lawyer argued, his argument was as if dancing in the streets in Gaza and chanting Amalek, Amalek,

expresses an understanding of their instruction to slaughter and obliterate all human life in that area, much as the Hebrews say God the Father told them to do 4,000 years ago. Right. And it's absolutely disgusting that the United States is supporting this. This dancing in the streets, this calls for genocide, and it seems to be heated by some of the Israeli soldiers. The conditions on the ground are horrific. Even the US mainstream media is reporting on innocent civilians carrying white flags being gunned down and the Israeli torture prisons that they are running in Gaza and killing a lot of the prisoners. And, you know, you would assume that the soldiers are willing to go that far in part because of the rhetoric of their

politicians, you know, calling for the Palestinians that live there to be wiped out and calling them human animals when your government's saying that it really incites people to go a lot farther and feel like they have the cover to do truly horrific things to other human beings. And it's just awful and disgusting. And of course, you know, so many people will point to, say, Hamas celebrating or Palestinians in Gaza celebrating after October 7th as proof that the Palestinians that live in Gaza are inhuman and, you know, they all deserve to be killed. But here, you know, we end up seeing the same thing on the Israeli side where, you know, just this level of hatred that exists in large part because now the oppression of the Palestinians, you know, has created where both sides are willing

to, you know, celebrate horrific acts. Our colleagues, Professor John Mearsheimer and the noted journalist Max Blumenthal, have both argued that Israel would be incapable of this type of utter destruction without the material and the cash that it gets from the United States. And of course, the Convention Against Genocide and the UN Charter Prohibiting Genocide define genocide as with intent wiping out a class of people based on an ethnic or national background or aiding and abetting it. Question, is the United States as liable as Israel and should the United States be a defendant in this litigation? Absolutely. And particularly with President Joe Biden, even the New York Times has reported that he's been more involved on the Israel policy than any other issue of his

presidency. And so, you know, a lot of people like to think of Biden as Sleepy Joe and wondering who's running the White House. You know, we may not know on a lot of issues, but certainly on this issue, Biden is heavily involved. And even White House staffers are talking to the Huffington Post and saying that they are concerned that Biden is so committed to Israel that it's going to spark a wider regional war because he's unwilling to condition any support to Tel Aviv. Does antiwar.com have the type of support on Capitol Hill that the Israeli lobby provides for Israel? I guess that's a silly question. How many members of Congress embrace being anti-war? You probably got them on two hands, four progressives and three libertarians.

Yeah, that sounds about right, Judge. No, we do not have, unfortunately, the funding of the Israel lobby, and they have so much influence. But what money we do get, we do put to good use. I know your field is generally anti-war, but I'm sure you are also pro-free speech, and I want you to watch this. So this is Jamie Raskin. It's cut number 12 when we get to it, Sonia. Congressman Raskin, who played a leading role in the January 6th investigation. I know him, but from my prior life and his prior life, when we were both law professors of constitutional law, it's a small community and many of us knew each other. He was highly respected. He's now a liberal Democratic member from Maryland.

But this is bitterly ironic. He's speaking in front of the Capitol building and he's speaking about the dangers to democracy of authoritarianism. Watch what happens. Cut number 12. The political scientists tell us that the hallmarks of an authoritarian or fascist political party are that, one, they do not accept the results of democratic elections that don't go their way. Two, they refuse to renounce or they openly embrace political violence as an instrument. What's the matter with this? Is there something wrong with the sign? Israel is not above the law. Hold Israel accountable. Hold Israel accountable.

They accept that. They are worse than Jan 6. Hold Israel accountable. Israel is not above the law. Hold it accountable. They accept. I'm sorry. Let me just start that again. Almost like a Saturday Night Live skit. He's talking about the dangers of fascism and authoritarianism. His own people are holding signs that say not above the law.

This lady, whom we all know, Medea Benjamin, holds a sign that says Israel is not above the law, and the cops yank her out. Right. And the work Medea Benjamin does is just so important. You know, a lot of these congressmen really get to insulate themselves from so many of their policies. And so I think, you know, you even hear him hesitate and bother, and it seems to get to him a little bit, you know, that somebody is confronting him and doesn't like the support of Israel, I think is really important. And of course, you know, it's ironic that they haul her off as he's talking about fascism and anti-democracy. Also, you know, the U.S. is

supporting a state that's in the midst of a genocide. So if we're going to talk about fascism and authoritarianism, maybe we should start by condemning Netanyahu. Here's another interesting clip. Joe Biden traveled to South Carolina this week, I guess for political purposes, but he's giving a sort of fiery speech at what appears to be a South Carolina church when he is interrupted. Now, watch the interrupters, but mainly watch his response to what they say when they interrupt him. This is cut number 11, Sonia. Without the truth, there's no light. Without light, there's no path from this darkness. If you really care about the lives lost here, then you should honor the lives lost in the corporate ceasefire in Palestine.

Cease fire now! Cease fire now! That's all right. That's all right. That's all right. I understand their passion. And I've been quietly working. I've been quietly working with the Israeli government to get them to reduce and significantly get out of Gaza. I'm using all that I can to do that. Doesn't sound very credible. It doesn't sound like he believes himself. Yeah, it's not true at all. Recently, Joe Biden had what was described by White House officials

as a frustrating call with Netanyahu, where he requested the Israeli government release TAT's money collected on behalf of the Palestinian authority toward the Norwegian government to distribute. And Netanyahu rejected the proposal that which he actually initially proposed came from Tel Aviv. And so he then rejected it to Biden and Biden apparently ended the call by telling Netanyahu to fix it. And so he then rejected it to Biden. And Biden apparently ended the call by telling Netanyahu to fits it. And a few days later, the Israeli finance minister took to Twitter and posted that they would not be distributing the money. And actually, when Antony Blinken, our Secretary of State, went to Israel this week, he again requested from Israel to release that tax money. And again,

the Israeli finance minister went on Twitter or ads and posted that Israel would not be distributing that money, claim it would be going to Nazis in Gaza, when of course the Palestinian Authority doesn't have a role in governing Gaza. And of course, Hamas is a Nazi group either. I guess the one good thing that Joe was talking about was truth. Truth is distorted all over the place by him, by his administration, by Netanyahu. Here's Secretary Blinken in Jerusalem talking about the need for a Palestinian state. I don't know, be serious or not, but I want you to look at this. Cut number four, Sonia. As I told the Prime Minister, every partner that I met on this trip said that they're

ready to support a lasting solution that ends the long-running cycle of violence and ensures Israel's security. But they underscored that this can only come through a regional approach that includes a pathway to a Palestinian state. These goals are attainable, but only if they're pursued together. This crisis is clarified. You can't have one without the other. You can't have a Palestinian state while you're paying for the Israeli government to obliterate Gaza. I mean, this is just absurd. This is another almost Seinfeld skit because it's so nonsensical. Right. It's just what the administration has to say. Pretend that there's one day going to be a

Palestinian state and that's why they continue to support Tel Aviv, when, of course, he has to know it's not true, when Netanyahu has even called for the Palestinians to be absorbed into other countries. And so many ministers have called for the voluntary resettlement. You know, even in Smoltrich's tweet, the finance minister's tweet, Ab Blinken, about not rejecting the T the tax money going to the Palestinian Authority. He also included the fact that they needed to look at voluntary resettlement from Gaza for the Palestinians. And so, you know, the Israeli government keeps telling the U.S. government that they they're going to ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip. And only the U.S. government is pretending that they're not.

And I'm guessing it's just so they could continue to provide the aid to Israel. They have to know what the reality on the ground is at this point. Do you have a finger on the pulse of young people in America, Republicans, Democrats, liberals, conservatives, progressives, libertarians, anarchists, socialists, whatever they might be, about the slaughter in Gaza, Kyle? Yeah, I've seen quite a few polls recently that Biden's approval numbers are very bad, and particularly among young Americans. In fact, there was a recent USA Today poll that found Biden was behind Trump. I think Trump had about 37% or 39% and Biden was in the low 30s. Among young people, a group that Biden really did well with in 2020 and would probably need to win in 2024.

And one of the primary issues for young voters right now is the war in Gaza. And so I think this is really hurting Biden's polling chances. Kyle Anzalone from antiwar.com and I guess libertarian.org. Thank you very much, my dear friend. It's a pleasure to have you back. I hope you can come back again next week. All right. I will. Thank you so much, Judge. Of course. Of course. Coming up at three o'clock, the great Professor John Mearsheimer and at 4.30, the great Larry Johnson and Ray McGovern in the Intelligence Community Roundtable at the end of the week.

Judge Napolitano for judging freedom. I'm out.