Judging Freedom - Larry Johnson: Ukraine vs. Gaza - Benchmarks

Episode Date: October 23, 2023

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Thank you. Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Monday, October 23rd, 2023. Larry Johnson joins us now. Larry, always a pleasure. Thanks for coming back to us. A lot to talk about with respect to the involvement of the United States military and State Department in the Israeli-Gaza war and what effect, if any, it's having on the military clashes in Ukraine. Before we get there, you have done an extraordinary amount of research directly and through colleagues of yours on the bombing of this Christian-run hospital in Gaza. This is the bombing that is now off the front pages, but 500 people were killed when it happened. The Palestinians said the Israelis did it. The Israelis said it was an errant missile intended to go to Israel that exploded in the wrong place. And at the wrong time, President Biden backed up that view. What conclusion, if any, have you come to from your research on the likely cause of the deaths of 500 people in that hospital yeah i think it was uh likely um dropped by the israelis from a drone and uh the signature of it in terms of the sound um suggests that it you don't see something like that from Hamas.

I've gone back and searched over the YouTube and various video channels, trying to find a comparable, because over the years, Hamas has launched rockets into Israel, but nothing like this. That's one of the troublesome issues is the fact that you don't see this kind of explosive going on in Israel. Routinely, well, it's not routinely, but sporadically will launch barrages, 30, 40 of these rockets into Israel. And you never see this kind of damage, this kind of destruction in Israel from those raw bombs. And we're talking about going back over the last 15 years. The other sort of troublesome issue that pointing to Israeli involvement was the fact that Benjamin

Netanyahu's spokesman, his press flag was out immediately within 23 minutes of the of the bomb going off in that parking lot that to take credit for, say, that was the IDF. And then they started backing away. Now, you say you say in the you say in the parking lot, there is some sort of a crater there. Did the bomb itself actually hit the parking lot? And then the reverberations of it shook the hospital and killed the people that were in there yeah no it's so it it detonated above the parking lot it did create that small um crater it's not a big crater there were some who had speculated there was like an mk 84 that's a 2 000 pound bomb that would created a moon-sized crater, would have leveled the

buildings around it. This didn't level the buildings. That's the other aspect. And, you know, the Hamas people have been playing propaganda with this too, trying to see if it was just the Israelis. They claim they had 500 casualties from it. And there really has been no actual evidence of 500 casualties from that incident. What we do know, for a fact, is Israel has been bombing or threatening to bomb hospitals. They have bombed churches. They have bombed mosques. They've hit UN refugee relief centers. And Israel's admitted to that in many of these cases. And at the same time, Palestinian civilians who are not Hamas are dying in massive numbers. Just think about this comparison. From 2014 to 2021 in Ukraine, in the Donbass, where the Ukrainians were shelling the Russian-speaking citizens,

less than 4,000 people died there over nine years. And that was considered a war crime. Right now, in less than two weeks, you've had more civilians killed in the Gaza Strip than you've had compared to the Donbass. So just, again, it puts in perspective the volume of casualties that are taking place. There were a lot of unusual responses to the belief that it was a Hamas missile or bomb that damaged the hospital.

Probably none more absurd than what the president of the United States said about it on Air Force One. And I'm not suggesting that Hamas deliberately did it either. It's that old thing, gotta know how to shoot straight. You know, and it's not the first time Hamas has launched something that didn't function. You imagine that.

You've got to learn how to shoot straight. I'm sure that's its own mentally diminished way of saying this is what the CIA told me. The emotions on this are running high because Israel is completely justified in its anger over the Hamas attacks on October 7th that killed and targeted civilians. So that was a war crime as well. But what people are missing in this is that with each side reacting emotionally, the tensions are ratcheting up in a way that we have not seen since the formation of the state of Israel, and that this can get out of control very, very quickly, because Israel is not fighting the old Hamas. That's the piece I wrote last night about Israel facing Hamas.

It was going to be my next question, new Ham about Israel facing Hamas. What's going to be my next question? New Hamas versus old Hamas. Yeah. So the old Hamas was not terribly competent. If you think about, you know, they'd launch rockets into Israel. Okay, what were they hitting? Well, they didn't know. They weren't precision guided.

They'd launch them up, and it was like that, you know, I launched, I shot an arrow in the air, and where it lands, I know not where. Well, that was their approach. Well, that doesn't accomplish anything. It'd be one thing if they were launching those rockets at Israeli defense establishments, bases, weapons factories, but they weren't. And rarely you see an Israel turn around and say, oh, look at all the dead and wounded and the mass destruction caused by these Hamas missiles. It's like they were inconsequential. And a lot of this was back and forth, that the Israelis would raid what they thought was a

terrorist cell, and they would kill some civilians. Hamas would then launch some rockets in retaliation. Then Israel would go back in to punish to try to wipe out the rockets. That's not what happened on October 7th. October 7th was a well-organized, well-orchestrated military operation that also really crossed the line in terms of killing civilians. But apart from the civilians who died, Hamas took on direct Israeli military, Israeli elite military forces, and killed them. Captured some, captured equipment, destroyed tanks, destroyed communications. So this is, you don't have another example of Hamas doing this in

the last 30 years. What do you think Hamas' goal was? I think to provoke Israel into doing what Israel is doing now. Because I see this as Israel does not have the capability of going in on the ground in Gaza and surviving. It will be, I believe, very devastating for the Israeli military to go on the ground. It will create a horrific public relations problem for Israel around the world. And people just need to remember that just because you can win a military confrontation, you can kill more of the other side, does not guarantee you the ultimate victory. We saw that with the Suez Canal crisis in 1956, when Britain and France, along with Israel, invaded Egypt. And yeah, they beat Egypt in the early goings, but it created such a furore, such a blowback, they had to retreat ultimately.

What should Prime Minister Netanyahu and the Israeli military do? What they should do is calm the rhetoric, stop making all these public threats that they can't deliver on, and seek to get some other people involved with the negotiations. Where do you start negotiations? You start negotiations by persuading Hamas to stop firing rockets and missiles into Israel. Get that stopped right away. You're going to seek punishment for those who killed Israeli civilians. That's a war crime, and they should be punished. But what Israel is doing, and when you talk to Israelis, they feel entirely justified

in this, that they need to, quote, wipe out Hamas, but they're not making a distinction between Hamas and a Palestinian. They're saying, if you're still in the Gaza Strip, then you are a Hamas supporter, and therefore you're still in the Gaza Strip, then you are a Hamas supporter, and therefore you're a fair target. And, you know, it'd be one thing if this was just confined to this area, but my concern is this has escalated globally. And you're seeing a unity on this issue between Arab and Muslim nations, as well as other nations that fall outside the Arab and Muslim world, including South Africa. So it's a very, very dangerous time in my view. We're going to take a break.

When we come back, I will ask Larry if the perception around the world is that the Israelis are interested in genocide. And if that is the perception, is there also the perception that the United States is supporting it? But first this. Can you believe the chaos confronting Americans today? The government is out of control. Debt is out of control. And have you heard? The dollar is under attack. This will soon be replaced by digital currency. No more paper cash. It's coming fast, so you need to get educated in other ways to protect and preserve the wealth you already have. What happens if the government destroys the United States dollar? I don't know. But I do know they can't destroy gold or silver or the value of it. That's why it's so important that you learn now how to transfer your wealth into gold and silver. So educate yourself about investing in precious

metals. Take charge of your retirement with gold-backed IRAs, and you can transfer a portion of your existing IRAs tax and penalty free. So don't procrastinate. Take control. Do the right thing for you and your family. Go to learjudgenap.com or call 800-511-4620. What does the United States hope to get out of its extraordinary support for Israel? Well, this is a domestic political issue. The Jewish Americans are a powerful lobby, and they have access to both Republicans and Democrats. So it's bipartisan. It's not just one party versus the other. And the United States has been invested in Israel since 1947-48 when Harry Truman played an instrumental role in the creation of the state of Israel. So the way it's being portrayed within the confines of the United States

is that this is an existential battle for Israel and we must stand with Israel. So that is creating a desire, you know, widespread sentiment among the population, the majority of the population, that we must do everything in our power to help Israel. Well, you know, the rest of the world's standing back and seeing how the United States would, you know, get all upset about alleged human atrocities by the Russians in Ukraine that didn't even begin to compare to what we're seeing in Palestine, that the United States demanded the World Act and uphold the international rule of law. Well, now they're looking at the United States having a

completely different standard when it comes to Palestine and to the Gaza Strip. And so it has eroded U.S. credibility and influence in ways you and I have not seen in our lifetime. Just the fact that when Joe Biden went to meet with Netanyahu and was supposed to meet with the king of Jordan, and then Mahmoud Abbas, the president of the Palestinian Authority, they blew him off. They wouldn't meet with him. And even since then, he's tried to place some phone calls to talk to people. They're not picking up the phone.

They're sending a message. We don't think you're relevant anymore. We don't think we need to talk to you. With that being said, I was just going to say, with that being said, the United States is building up a massive military presence in the eastern Mediterranean. And that could end very, very badly, as we learned more than 40 years ago. Is there the perception in the Arab world that Israel wants to engage in genocide? And if there is, is there also the perception in the Arab world that the United States supports that genocide? Short answer, yes. What we're seeing is a

developing coalition that is really unprecedented. Because in the know, there would be some of the Muslim states that would back the Palestinians in word only, but wouldn't really act. But this time we're seeing statements coming out of Jordan, who in the past would remain silent, statements coming out of Turkey, and statements coming out of Egypt, where they're all sort of saying, they're basically saying the same thing, and that this fire has to be imposed. The Palestinians need to have a state, a country that's their own, that they're not coerced or controlled by Israel. And that's why I think this is the Israeli response to the attacks of October 7th are going to end up being counterproductive. It's one of those things you think, yeah, we have to protect ourselves, but it's like someone who's in the act of trying to defend themselves ends up killing the other person

and then gets charged with manslaughter and goes to prison. The president of Israel held up some pieces of paper for the media over the weekend, saying that they were found on the bodies of Hamas fighters, and they purported to be instructions as to how to construct chemical warfare. It's almost inconceivable that Hamas fighter would have such instructions on him. Is it conceivable that the Israelis would have placed those instructions on the body and claimed they found them there? Yeah, no, that's clearly a psychological operation. I mean, you're not going to pass out instructions like, you know, it's not like passing a recipe for your guacamole dip, you know. So this is just part of the Israeli psychological operation where they, you know, they justify the total war against the Palestinians because they're trying to exterminate us.

And when you, you know, when you conjure up the image of gas and Jews, you're playing back to the Holocaust. Correct. Extermination of Jews in the're playing back to the Holocaust. Correct. Termination of Jews in the gas chambers at Auschwitz. You and I texted over the weekend about a photograph on the front page of the Saturday's New York Times that showed four Israel, young, very young, Israeli soldiers training for guerrilla warfare. And I said to you, and I thought as I looked at the photo, these guys are two weeks ago, teachers, school teachers, lawyers, accountants, two weeks from now, they'll be dead.

Can the Israeli military effectively wage urban warfare in Gaza? These people are reservists. They're not special forces or Navy SEALs. Yeah, well, they can learn it. But, you know, some of the, for example, if you're shooting at a firing position and you run out of ammunition, if you've ever been involved with shooting any kind of firearm like that the tendency is you get stopped right where you are and you start trying to reload well you've got to get in the habit of stepping back behind cover where you can't be shot and do your reloads there just learning how to do something that basic

is you don't you don't do that in a day or two. That has to be wired into you so it becomes a habit. But what Israel will face in this, if they proceed, is that they will suffer significant casualties. They may ultimately prevail, but it'll come at just a tremendous cost. And what I think what really has them worried is that if they launch into the into the gaza strip that then hezbollah who is has a far larger they have hezbollah has an army let's let's not kid ourselves they're not a band of uh guerrillas these guys are an army a full military force they could decide to invade israel from the north. And then Israel is faced with having to fight at a minimum of a two-front war and one that's going to be supported by other nations in the region.

Here's Secretary Blinken to cut three, Chris, on Meet the Press over the weekend, trying to answer or trying to avoid answering about the problems of escalation. How concerned are you about Iran trying to escalate this war? We are concerned. In fact, we expect that there's a likelihood of escalation, escalation by Iranian proxies directed against our forces, directed against our personnel. We are taking steps to make sure that we can effectively defend our people and respond decisively if we need to. This is not what we want, not what we're looking for. We don't want escalation. We don't want to see a second or third front develop.

We don't want to see our forces or our personnel come under fire. But if that happens, we're ready for it. And personnel there in the first place. Why are there 2,000 Marines on an aircraft carrier with a bunch of ships around it? And why is another aircraft carrier in the Persian Gulf with a bunch of ships around it? Well, and on top of that, what he's really talking about are the U.S. troops that are on the ground in eastern Syria. They already have been attacked with drones and rockets. And so it's likely that there will be more attacks and there will be U.S. casualties. And so then it confronts the administration with, well, what does it do? And I suspect the option will become just like with Ronald Reagan in 1983, 84. After the

Marine barracks was blown up, after the U.S. Embassy was blown up in Beirut, Reagan pulled forces out. Because you recognize we're not in a position where we want to go in and we do not have the capability to wage war in these countries without a lot of time to build up. And then it's going to be very, very expensive. We have learned nothing from our misadventures in Iraq and Afghanistan. Nothing. Not a thing. And so when it's the definition of insanity, you keep doing the same thing over and over, hoping for a different outcome.

Chris, put up the picture of Secretary Austin and Defense Minister Gallant. The New York Times says that Austin's job is to restrain the Israeli defense minister. It doesn't seem to be doing a very good job of it, Larry. Yeah. Yeah. No, when you look at the disparity between, you know, Israel's launching fixed-wing aircraft with bombs and with artillery strikes, and they do also have some missile strikes. What does Hamas have? Hamas has some unguided rockets, basically. They do have some anti-tank guided missiles apparently they've shot a few of those and and knocked out a couple of israeli tanks but just the disparity is hamas does not have a

military force anything remotely like israel so they're left having to fight uh like a girl force underground and that in an urban environment can be a very effective defense though you know it's it's a little reminiscent of with when the Jews rose up against the Germans in the Warsaw Ghetto I think it was 1943 they fought the German army to stand still for almost a month remember Poland Poland hadn't is a country hadn't lasted that long against the German Wehrmacht. So it just shows you that when you get into that kind of urban environment and people have had time to prepare, they can put up a long

fight. And I think there's some, I've heard some of the Israeli, more sane Israeli military officials comment they could be looking at a three or four month operation. But that operation is not going to be taking place in a vacuum. That operation is going to be plastered on the front pages, on social media, on television. And it is going to, it's not going to be a good look for Israel. It's going to reinforce the meme that Israel is intent on killing the Palestinian.

Larry Johnson, always a pleasure. My dear friend, thank you for joining us. We'll see you at the end of the week for our Intelligence Roundtable with that youngster, McGovern. Okay, thanks. All the best. Judge Napolitano for judging freedom. Phil Giraldi on more of this

from the intelligence community perspective at noon. And we're just approaching 220,000 subscriptions, for which I am deeply grateful. As you know, our goal is a quarter of a million by Christmas. We are well on our way there. You know what we do here on Judging Freedom. We look out for your liberty. Thank you.