Judging Freedom - LtCOL. Tony Shaffer: Ukraine Under Trump
Episode Date: January 23, 2025LtCOL. Tony Shaffer: Ukraine Under TrumpSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. ...
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Thank you. Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Thursday, January 23rd,
2025. Lieutenant Colonel Tony Schaefer joins us now. Tony, a pleasure, my dear friend. What a
almost wild, historic week we're all watching as Donald Trump changes the public policy of
the United States and radically the public policy of the executive branch of the government.
But before we get to Donald Trump and Ukraine.
Hold on one second.
Are you okay?
Hold on. I don't know. Something happened to my audio. I can't hear you. Hold on one second.
Let me know when you can hear me. Sorry.
Can you hear me now?
Can I hear you?
Yes.
Can you hear me? You want to log off and log back on?
No, I can hear you now. Sorry about that. I don't know why.
Good. Okay. So these things happen. Before we get to Ukraine, which is mainly what I want to talk to you about, and the public policy of the United States changing radically from Joe Biden to Donald Trump, I want your take on the Israeli Hamas ceasefire.
Do you think it's a serious ceasefire or just a strategic slash inauguration pause to give Netanyahu some breathing room? No, I think President Trump,
I think, has made it clear he wants it ended. The only tool he had available was the existing
agreement that the Biden administration had put together, which basically is the three-part permanent peace plan
starting off with a five-week ceasefire.
I think this is something that is serious.
I don't think it'll last.
I think, as President Trump has already said,
he's skeptical it'll make it past the first phase.
But I think he does want the American hostages home.
He basically said something else, which indicates that he wants to be less involved, but at
the same time wants to achieve peace, which is basically, this is their issue, not our
issue.
So I do believe, Judge, that what he's going to do with Steve Weikoff, he's done a good
job of
wyckoff steve wyckoff has done a good job of negotiating on his behalf i think they're going
to try to push this towards a renewed abraham accord group basically the egyptians and the
saudis could play a major role in resolving this. Frankly, I don't think we should be involved.
This should be something the Arabs and the Israelis finish and figure out themselves.
Well, when Trump said it's their war, not ours, I mean, did he know what he was talking about?
Every missile that's fired, every trigger that's pulled, every bomb that's dropped says made in America on it.
Right.
Well, I don't disagree with you, but I think he's saying,
look, all those other countries
I just named off, they're all armed by us too,
except the Egyptians who have
a little bit of Russian stuff coming in.
But we are the arms provider
for all of those countries,
for better or for worse.
But I think what he's saying
is that whatever comes
regarding permanent peace, I guess you would have some level of military force there to help settle a peace and then governance.
And I think that's what he's saying.
It's not our job to be in the middle of all that.
I understand that. But do you think that the president, Trump, understands that as long as we continue arming the Israelis, they'll continue killing the Palestinians?
I don't know.
I haven't talked to him, so I don't know.
I don't know about that.
Okay.
Do you think that Netanyahu, you know the personalities involved.
Do you think that Netanyahu will find Trump easier or more challenging to deal with than Joe Biden was?
I'll give the lawyer answer.
It depends.
It depends on a lot of different factors, Judge, that they're both strong personalities.
You know this.
You know the president.
So I think he's going to have certain objectives which are going to clash with Bibi.
I think Bibi's going to want to do certain things that Trump doesn't want done.
So I think in some ways the relationship's going to be better.
I think the military-to-military relationship will be better.
I think you'll have a more reason state department with Marco Rubio than
Tony Blinken.
I think there's a New York times article,
your audience,
you may have already read it,
but New York,
your,
your audience may want to read about Tony Blinken,
about him becoming essentially the,
the,
the secretary of war.
And that's true.
So I don't think you're going to have that behavior out of,
out of Marco, Marco Rubio.
But back on the Trump thing, I think the military weaponry is probably going to be better. I know
you don't want to hear that, but it's probably going to get more stuff that they asked for.
But I think many of the political issues that made Netanyahu go against Trump last time are still existing now that they're going to have to resolve.
I don't think Joe Biden turned down anything they wanted.
I think it was a 30 day.
Wasn't there just a 30 day pause in bombs?
There were certain weapons that they were holding back, mostly weapons which were, in my judgment,
would have been better used for precision attack rather than large area bombing.
There was a lot of precision munitions that the Israelis asked for
that were initially denied.
And I'm not sure if they were all given yet or not.
I don't know.
Do you think that Trump understands that if he turns off the spigot,
the war against the Palestinians ends? Yeah, because he understands that because he's
probably going to do it with Ukraine. So yeah, I think he does understand that.
All right. Transitioning to Ukraine, Blinken and Sullivan each claim that they left Ukraine strong and stable.
I mean, this is some of the most incredible comments in modern American history.
So you have to understand that they govern from perception and emotion, not reality and fact.
So in their little coffee clutch world yeah it's all better they uh they are the
victors and they are the victors by the fact that they were able to reduce a lot of um revenue for
their party I think you were going to come to find there's going to be a large uh auditing of all the
money Tom Cotton is going to be involved um i think there's going to
we're going to come to find that they were very successful that is the biden folks
in getting money uh laundered through ukraine back to u.s concerns i think we're going to find a lot
of that what do you mean do you mean uh uh american arms dealers or do you mean illicit money laundering?
All of the above.
All of the above.
You're going to find three categories, my judgment, three categories of grift, corruption, whatever you want to call it.
First, it's been said, Lindsey Graham said it, that, yeah, this money going to Ukraine is all going to be spent here.
Well, a lot of it's going to be spent because of the American military industrial complex.
Tons of money.
Weapon systems which were used have to be replaced.
Weapons which were pledged have to be manufactured.
So there's a lot of gravy, and that train is still coming to the U.S. arms industry. Secondly, you're going to come to find non-governmental organizations,
NGOs were heavily involved in working to move money around.
I think a lot of these things produce nothing but actually absorb a lot of funds.
And you're going to come to find that a lot of those things were going to Ukraine
but actually were benefiting people here.
And then just flat out corruption of politicians.
There's rumors of Zelensky buying multiple houses.
I think there's all sorts of that.
Anytime you send stuff over, it goes off.
And I think that half of the stuff that went to the Ukrainian military was sold in the black market in some form, probably.
So there's heavy corruption. And I
think, I don't know how people think that- You're suggesting serious criminal activity.
Yeah, absolutely. On the part of Americans.
On the part of Americans who knew this was going on, permitted it to happen. And then some
Americans did benefit back here. Yeah, I do believe that.
Is Trump still arming and funding Ukraine?
Well, I don't know.
He's not.
I don't have.
I haven't been to the Pentagon as of late.
I'm going to be in D.C. tomorrow, Judge.
But, you know, the.
I believe the Biden administration put a lot of things in motion.
Has Trump turned them all off yet?
I don't know.
I don't know what he's given the guidance
to his acting DOD folks.
Pete Hegsteth has not confirmed it, as you know.
So the acting folks,
I don't know what specific guidance
they've been given is.
With that said,
I do believe that they're going to relook
every program regarding what has been sent and what is being sent.
I'd like to believe Trump will follow through with his pledge is good, to make sure that U.S. issues such as the fires in California, the fires in Hawaii, Ohio, North Carolina, all these things are looked at and funded before we fund anything overseas, which is good.
But the Ukraine stuff, some of the stuff's in a pipeline that starts, you know, once it starts, it takes upwards of a year to get things done.
So I'm not sure what they've done.
All right. So we don't we don't know if the pipeline, which had been open for two and a half years, the Biden pipeline is still open.
We don't know if that I don't know that analogy.
We don't know if the faucet's been turned off yet.
Again, I do believe, I know there's a conflict going on on the inside. You've got some folks
who are the neocons who really do, are trying to convince the president and the team to keep it
going. Their voice is, I think, being
reduced every day.
I'd like to believe that. That's General Kellogg,
no? I think
he's more on the neocon side, to be honest with you.
I think you have others
who have
access who are saying,
yeah, I think you need to rethink
that whole thing.
There's a lot of, he's been,
President Trump has said some things
which I think he's been misinformed about
regarding Russia's economy being in a shambles.
Yeah, it's not.
The World Bank has stated
that their economy is growing very well.
The people who have primarily suffered
from the economic, all the sanctions has been Europe.
And Trump has said that.
He said the Europeans have suffered greatly.
But I don't know if he's circled the square to put it all together to recognize that all the information he's being given is not accurate.
Can Ukraine survive a month if that faucet is completely turned off,
bearing in mind that the American government funds the Ukrainian government,
including pensions and hospitals?
Well, I'd like to believe that foreign aid includes Ukraine.
It's like if he said all foreign aid, that means aid to Ukraine in two.
And that would mean a demunition to the point of where it cannot be effective regarding the governance of Ukraine.
Since we, Ukraine, has become the 51st state by all intents and purposes regarding funding.
And I think this is where President Trump has to really take and take a serious hard stand and say, yeah, you're not us.
We're not you.
And you all need to figure it out.
Now, the EU has been talking big.
As a matter of fact, Zelensky met at Davos.
He made a speech at Davos a couple days ago where he basically said,
Europeans can step up and help us.
It's not going to happen, but okay.
So, you know,
the Europeans have talked about taking over
the war. God bless them. Go with God.
Have a go at it.
But I think it's time that we
step back and take a second look at
why we're there and what's going on.
Tony, here are two clips from him
at Davos. I think he was delusional.
Chris, play
10 and 11 back- back but will president trump
listen to europe or will he negotiate with russia and china without europe europe needs to learn how
how to fully take care of itself so that the world can't afford to ignore it. It's vital to maintain
unity in Europe cause the world doesn't care about just Budapest or
Brussels, it cares about Europe as a whole. And Ukraine's already stepping in
to support the new Syria. Our ministers have been to Damascus and we've launched a food aid program for Syria
called Food from Ukraine. And we are getting our partners involved to invest in these delivers
and in building food production facilities. And Europe could totally step in as a security donor for Syria time to stop getting headaches from that
direction. And Europe together with America should put pay to the Iranian threat.
Start at the end, Tony. He doesn't have two nickels to rub together of his own to give to
Syria. He's suggesting that U.S. largesse That's going to him is also going to
He's transmitting to Syria?
Yeah, it's insane
It's unhinged, to use a term the left likes to use
And
All this depends on us
It's like, yeah, you don't do any of that
Without us, period
You don't have the transportation infrastructure
At least US
Blessed shipping
Other nations will do it i
mean other flag carriers the actual coordination the global uh interoperability it's all us
and the europeans don't want to do it i don't care what he says about oh you know you don't
want that headache of syria's like the europeans't care, nor do I necessarily think they should.
With that said, they're still believing that, and I think something else he said in that speech,
I'm trying to remember the exact phrasing he used. Basically, he implied somehow that,
oh, you know, the Europeans, if the Europeans should turn their back on the U.S. because it'll force the U.S. to come to them, it's like, no, it won't.
No, it won't.
But you can believe that.
I think it's long overdue that we rethink how we interact with the world.
We have been basically deferring and funding failure all across the board for decades. And this goes back to my time when I first joined.
Even I have to say the Reagan folks, I think, were pretty naive to some of the things we were doing.
And I love the Reagan guys. They're close friends and mentors of mine.
But I think we have to relook our entire structure of relationships within alliances, within our trade structure,
because people like Zelensky are kind of pointing out
the obvious, like, let the Europeans turn their back on us. I don't think we'd miss anything,
just saying. Yesterday, President Trump threatened the Russians, saying if Putin doesn't come to the
negotiating table with Zelensky, something Putin has indicated many times he won't do because in the Russian view, Zelensky is not the legitimate lawful authority in Ukraine.
That's debatable.
We can put that aside for the moment.
But I want to ask you your opinion of the Trump threat to impose tariffs and sanctions on Russia beyond that which has been imposed.
I mean, that resulted in laughter in
Moscow. Yeah. Well, again, I think after all these years of sanctions and no real
stopping Russia, I think you'd learn a lesson from that, just saying. And I, again, I think
President Trump's getting some bad advice, some bad information relating to what the real effects have
been uh russia putin has been very clear on this i think he did a very gracious uh graduate uh
congratulations video to the president president trump uh i think the russians are really ready
to talk i'm not pro-russian i'm just saying you have to look at the situation for as it is not as
you want it to be agreed agreed i do I do have been a harsh and eloquent
critic of Lincoln and company for looking at the world as they want it to be and claiming that
that's the real thing. They have been divorced from reality. I hope we don't have a dose
of the same thing. I'm hoping to. Yeah. And so I'm just, my judgment is there are certain people who have picked up and want to maintain parts, if not all the Biden narrative.
And then they should just point out I've been partially critical of Blinken and Austin and Beaker. What's his name? Jake Sullivan. And I think the president, I think, needs to take
and have a fresh look at the whole thing. I hope he does, because he's got to hear voices
that are not tainted by the insanity of the Biden foreign policy narrative. just saying wow so chris just uh informs me that the state department
uh posted a boasting of all the aid that we have given to ukraine this is obviously
before rubio took control there but they posted it on january 20th perhaps in the morning before the change in authority, we have now used the emergency
presidential drawdown authority on 55 occasions since August of 2021 to provide Ukraine assistance
totaling approximately $24.6 billion from DOD stockpiles. That's a fraction of what was authorized.
The rest, I guess, has been from other sources.
Well, think about this, Judge.
That's from muscle.
That's from actual.
That's not like surplus.
That's stuff we would want to have available.
Right, right.
That's what they've been saying.
By the way, the Biden administration posted a bunch of stuff on the way out the door Right, right. publicly until a political appointee reviews it. So I believe that was done without approval.
Rubio wasn't in the State Department when that was posted.
Agreed. He hadn't even been confirmed or even technically nominated yet since that
happened on Monday morning. I want to play a cut, excuse me, of President Putin at his articulate best with an English translation talking about his expected interactions with President Trump.
Cut number eight.
We've heard his commitment to do everything to prevent World War III.
Of course, we welcome this approach and we congratulate the newly elected President of the United States on his inauguration.
We have never been against dialogue. We have always been ready to maintain peaceful relationship with any American administration. We would like to see the dialogue built upon equality and mutual respect, considering the
common positions on our country on a number of international issues, including strengthening
security and political stability.
We're also open for dialogue with the new US administration on the Ukrainian conflict. The most important
thing here is to eliminate the fundamental reason for the conflict. That's the most important.
And as for settling the situation itself, its goal should be not a brief ceasefire, not just getting some time to regroup and rearm and carry on the conflict, but long-term peace based on respect to law for the interests of Russia and its people.
This is actually the goal and point of the special military operation.
Your thoughts, Tony?
So, yeah, two things.
First, President Trump has recognized and acknowledged that the root causes needs to be the focus.
It's not about the conflict. It's about
how did we get here? And President Trump said correctly, and this is why I'm hoping he'll
listen to the right voices when he goes through this to understand that the root causes have to
do with the West encroaching on Russia. Again, let me be clear. Nobody says I'm pro-Putin.
There was an agreement made in the early 90s, right after the Cold War ended, that created Ukraine and its independence.
And the path forward, basically, and it was signed by, I think, Secretary of State Baker, who said, basically, we agree we will not have expansion of NATO East.
And we did.
So it is what it is.
I think President Trump recognizes that that antagonism is one of the factors that needs to be examined.
And I'm glad he does.
And he said publicly he wants to resolve root causes.
So that's great. Trump and our side has said, they've said our policy objective is to end the conflict,
not to give as much, what do they say, as long as it takes, you know, we're going to arm them. So
that's a massive change in policy, which again, I think recognizes that they want to have dialogue
with Vladimir Putin. There is some disconnect still,
but at the same time, I think President Trump has said
that he's open to the dialogue with Putin.
They want to have a constructive framework
established for them to meet sooner than later.
I think FISO is working to have that in Slovenia.
I know Orban, Viktor Orban is working,
Hungary is working on this as well.ia. I know Orban, Viktor Orban is working, Hungary is working on
this as well. So I think those three men, Trump, Pizzo, and Orban will find a way to come to a
common ground for a meeting sooner than later where everybody is included. Now, I think the
problem is going to be Zelensky. I don't think Zelensky wants to show up to this, although he's saying he does.
I think the moment Zelensky shows up to this, he knows it's all over for him.
So can Trump rid the State Department of the neocon mentality or is it so deeply ingrained that no matter who the secretary of state is or what the command style of the President is, we're stuck with it.
I was talking to Dr. Chris Lehman the other day. Chris has worked with President Reagan's
nuclear weapons advisor, brother of John Lehman, Secretary of the Navy. We talked about the State
Department. The State Department has had problems going back before Reagan came into office.
They've always had this certain passive aggressiveness.
Zygmunt Brzezinski helped bring that in and it's always stayed there.
And it's almost like they talk peace but act war. And again, I referenced this article from the New York Times, which is not a conservative
publication, that they call Tony Blinken the Secretary of War. And so they are neocons.
They'll pretend they're trying to create peace, but they're always trying to get antagonism going
to create war. So the answer is, I don't know. Marco Rubio is, you know, not he's not my first choice to be kind of a the guy who goes in and cleans it out.
But if he does a president's bidding correctly and starts removing people who are prone to being neocons, I'd like to see that.
But that whole that whole infrastructure, you know, I don't know, Judge, Judge. It would take decades to get it completely, I think,
turned around to be focused on constitutional governance and oversight, proper oversight.
So it'll take time. I think you're right, Tony. Tony, thank you very much for your time, and thanks
for allowing the discussion to go over a broad range of issues. All the best to you,
my friend. We'll see you next week. Thank you. Okay. We have a busy day coming up for you
at 8.45 this morning, Dr. Gilbert Doctorow at noon, Senator Rand Paul at one, Kivork Almacian
at two, Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson at three, Professor John Mearsheimer at four,
Professor Jeffrey Sachs, not finished yet, and at 4.30,
Colonel Douglas McGregor, Judge Napolitano for judging freedom. Thanks for watching!