Judging Freedom - Matt Hoh: Are politicians and media rushing to embrace war?

Episode Date: October 25, 2023

About Matt Hoh:Matthew Hoh is a former Captain of the U.S. Marine Corps. n 2009, Matthew resigned in protest from his post in Afghanistan with the State Department over the American escalation of the war. Prior to his assignment in Afghanistan, Matthew took part in the American occupation of Iraq; first in 2004-5 in Salah ad Din Province with a State Department reconstruction and governance team and then in 2006-7 in Anbar Province as a Marine Corps company commander. When not deployed, Matthew worked on Afghanistan and Iraq war policy and operations issues at the Pentagon and State Department from 2002-8.Matthew’s writings have appeared in online and print periodicals such as the Atlanta Journal Constitution, CounterPunch, CNN, Defense News, the Guardian, the Huffington Post, Mother Jones, the Raleigh News & Observer, USA Today, the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Post. He has been a guest on hundreds of news programs on radio and television networks including the BBC, CBS, CNN, CSPAN, Fox, NBC, MSNBC, NPR, and Pacifica. The Council on Foreign Relations has cited Matthew’s resignation letter from his post in Afghanistan as an Essential Document.In 2010, Matthew was named the Ridenhour Prize Recipient for Truth Telling and, in 2021, he was awarded as a Defender of Liberty by the Committee for the Republic. Matthew is a member of the Board of Directors for the Institute for Public Accuracy, an Advisory Board Member for the Committee to Defend Julian Assange and Civil Liberties, Expose Facts, North Carolina Committee to Investigate Torture, The Resistance Center for Peace and Justice, Veterans For Peace, and World Beyond War, and he is an Associate Member of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS). He is a 100% disabled veteran and was certified by North Carolina as a Peer Support Specialist for Mental Health and Substance Use Disorder.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Thank you. Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Tuesday, October 24th, 2023. Matt Ho, former Marine and State Department official, joins us in a moment on the effects of propaganda on war. But first this. There is an organization that still backs Obamacare, gun control, and extreme transgender policies that endanger our kids. They claim to be bipartisan, but last year, 95% of their donations went to the Democrats. AARP does not represent the values of conservative American seniors.

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Let's send AARP a strong message that they don't represent conservative American seniors. Join AMAC today at amac.us forward slash judge. That's amac.us forward slash j-u-D-G-E. Matt, welcome back to the show. Your time, of course, is so much appreciated. You and I have talked in the past that at the time we had this conversation, Ukraine was the most propagandized war in the modern era. I think you might have a different view now after the unfortunate events in Israel. But big picture, how does propaganda extend and expand war? Well, thanks for having me back on, Judge. And yeah, that was just probably three, four weeks ago we had that conversation. I mean, it really was. I mean, and the certainty of what we said was not in doubt then, but now seeing this and the way that both, whether it's legacy establishment media or social media, or just all the tropes, all the cultural aspects of this, including race, have emerged to just dominate the discussion.

And the way that the political and media establishment in the U.S. is in near total agreement on the need for Israel to go forward and conduct this ethnic cleansing campaign in Israel is astounding. And as someone who took part in the Iraq and Afghan wars, you know, looking back, I don't see any degree of political unity in, say, the Congress for American military action, except for in the days following 9-11 and except for in 1964 during the Tonkin Gulf resolution. And at least in those cases, there was dissent in Tonkin Gulf. You had two senators who voted, who were against the resolution. You just had a resolution in the U.S. Senate where no one was in favor of a ceasefire. No one was speaking up for the Palestinians. Everyone was willing in the U.S. Senate to give Israel whatever it needs to do whatever it wants, including commit war crimes. And I mean, so this type of totality of opinion

that masquerades as fact, and again, uncertainty, is just dominating. Is the Congress the target or the cause of the propaganda? In other words, are members of Congress wanting to curry favorites with the military-industrial complex, with the voters in their districts who are employed by the military-industrial complex, with foreign leaders? Are they the cause of the propaganda or is the propaganda aimed at them? I think it's so well established, this propaganda industry, right? That to pull it apart, to find out where it begins will require a heck of a lot of work, right? I mean, like, the reality is, is that it works always in all directions because that's the way it's designed. It's meant to ensure that there is a pressure put on members of Congress that they then turn around and put on their constituents.

And then that becomes a self-reinforcing loop. You see it, though. But the thing about it is, even with all this propaganda, even with, say, today, when you had these two women released by Hamas and the one lady, the older lady, 85 years old. I mean, crime. I mean, the kidnapping and everything else is disgusting. But then when she's released, though, she says how the kidnappers were kind, all their needs were met. They were being taken care of well. And CNN describes what she says as Hamas talking points. I mean, so the idea is that if you step out of line, if you deviate, even people who are there, who are the ones experiencing this, who are the victims of this, are not allowed to speak their truths without being demeaned. And so the idea that somehow if a former captive cannot speak

her truth, then what can I say? What can you say? What can our members of Congress say? But the important thing is, is even with all this propaganda, the American public is not on board. We saw some really interesting polling last week that shows that the majority of Americans want a ceasefire. Majority of Americans want humanitarian aid to both Israel and Palestine. And the majority of Americans say, do not send weapons to Israel. So even with, again, the greatest propaganda theater we've ever seen, the American people see through it. And this may have, this I think is the one chance that we might see for the United States to possibly rein Israel in, because they're not going to rein Israel in because Israel's

conducting ethnic cleansing. They're not going to rein Israel in because there's a fear of this spreading into a larger regional war that could become a world war, they may rein Israel in because this may have an effect on Joe Biden's presidency. 80% of Democrats want a ceasefire. You do that, you look at that, you run the math, and you realize that quite possibly that could lead to millions of Democrats staying home and not voting for Joe Biden next year. I could not agree with you more. Joe Biden wants to run for reelection as a wartime president because it takes the American public's eye off the ball of a horrific domestic policy, which has brought about ruination. He wants to be like FDR, don't change horses in the middle of a stream. You remember from history,

that famous line that he used in 1940 and in 1944. Joe Biden believes because of his advisors have told him that Americans will not kick out a wartime president. Of course, LBJ, thankfully, did not seek another term in 1968, if you recall that. What do you think is the goal of American involvement? I mean, Joe Biden has sent an armada of ships, if you add those he sent to the eastern Mediterranean and those he sent to the Eastern Mediterranean, and those he sent to the Persian Gulf. There are 2,000 Marines, and there are special forces on the ground. What are special forces supposed to do? Is this another Jimmy Carter, let's extract the hostages? Is this a, well, you guys show us how to conduct urban warfare?

What are they doing there? Well, the special forces and the CIA guys, well, they have a lot of relevant experience. They did a lot of capture kill missions over the last 20 years. They have a lot of experience also in Ukraine as well, running operations against the Russians. So their experience is very relevant. But also importantly, when you have them there in Israel and they need something, they'll get it. So rather than the Israelis having to ask the Americans for satellite imagery or something like that, say, you now have an American general or American special operations colonel or an American CIA officer reaching back and saying, hey, we need this. And they get it right away. So what this does is it

enables the Israelis to conduct their ethnic cleansing, to begin this campaign to clear Gaza, as well as all the support that goes into the bombing campaign. Certainly the bombs are coming from the U.S. The planes came from the U.S. It's all subsidized by American taxpayer money. And in a diplomatic effort, such as last week, the United States being the lone nation to vote against a ceasefire. I mean, none of this is possible without the United States' support. And so all of us as Americans are directly involved in this campaign of ethnic cleansing. How dangerous for Israeli soldiers and for American soldiers is urban warfare? I've said this before. I don't think you and I have discussed it. On Saturday mornings, New York Times, I was looking at it

at breakfast, the front page of the Times showed four reservists in military uniform, young men, young, in their early to mid-20s, training for urban warfare. And I thought two weeks ago, these guys were accountants and school teachers. Two weeks from now, they'll be dead. How dangerous is urban warfare for these people, for a military that's two-third reservist, and for Americans that don't know Gaza at all? It's extremely dangerous. It's very difficult, particularly once you rubble the place. And I think the Israelis, you know, from objective, trying to be objective about this right now,

from the Israeli perspective, whether to rubble Gaza or not to rubble, you know, rubbling, destroying the entire city, You're setting your, your troops down into something that is completely disjointed. Every few feet, there's a major obstacle you have to clear. All your lines of sight are now completely cut. There's nothing you can count on in terms of the urban geography because everything has been upended, destroyed, knocked down, crumbled. But then again, if you don't do that, you're allowing the enemy, Hamas in this case, to keep its deliberate defense. And this is a defense that Hamas has been building and expanding upon for 15 years. So I mean, they have a damned if they do, damned if they don't. The only thing you can do is not go in, which is what I would urge them not to do. But the idea that

this may be a trap, that this is what we know, anyone with a head on their shoulders knew that this was going to be the Israeli response. They talked about this for years, that we have to go in and finish the problem in Gaza, and here's their opportunity to do so, let alone Israeli doctrine of their punitive retaliation against the Palestinians whenever there is attack against them or against Israeli people or Israeli military forces is also very clear. So an operation like Hamas launched on October 7th was always going to bring about this Israeli response. So is Hamas prepared for this? Is Israel walking into a trap? Is this Hamas's chance to try and get Israel into an ugly, bloody, brutal, urban conflict that humiliates Israel, forces them to evacuate Gaza like they had to evacuate Lebanon? I mean, is that what's motivating them as well as I think Hamas wants to destroy the larger geopolitical scene, right?

You're not going to do this Abraham Accords. You're not going to have normalization with Saudi Arabia without us being involved. You can't ignore us. And so the madness of what the two sides want here is really intense. And of course, the suffering that comes from it and where this may then spin off to. The idea that either one of these sides can control the course of this war, that it's like there's a dial or a lever they can adjust it with. I mean, this war, as someone who was in Iraq, someone who was in Afghanistan, the guys were in Vietnam, the guys in World War II, they will all tell you that nothing about this makes this war exceptional.

There's no reason to think that this war is going to somehow be manageable by human minds, whether it be in Tel Aviv or whether it be in Gaza. Here's Secretary Austin. This is Austin, too, Chris, talking about the dangers of a ground war. He begins by mentioning his own experience as a general in Iraq and then segues into the dangers that the Israelis would face and Americans if they are there would face. This may be a bit more difficult because of the underground network of tunnels that Hamas has constructed over time and the fact that they've had a long time to prepare for a fight. So I think you'll see a fight that's characterized by a lot of IEDs, a lot of booby traps, and just really grinding activity going forward.

Now, one of the things that we've learned is how to account for civilians in the battle space. And they are a part of the battle space. And we, in accordance with the law of war, we got to do what's necessary to protect those civilians. And as I've talked to Minister Gallant and others, I've encouraged them to conduct their operations in accordance with the law of war. Does Prime Minister Netanyahu and does Defense Minister Gallant share that attitude about the moral to evacuate from. And then they bombed them as they were evacuating and they're continuing to bomb them in the south where they told them to go to. So you just see the disingenuous nature of all this. But the leaflets being dropped are saying, if you are here, you will be considered a part of the terrorist organization, basically covering themselves for adopting a kill anything that

moves policy, which likely will be what they do. This idea of going into the tunnels that Secretary Austin brought up. Look, when I was in Iraq, I had to go into a couple of basement-like structures where we were. But it was underground, basically. And that was terrifying. And that was like a basement. So the idea of having to go into these tunnels, and I would imagine what they will do is they will try and clear the tunnels as they move through, possibly using explosives, possibly using some type of fuel air explosive type device to try and just burn out the Palestinians rather than try and fight them inside those tunnels, because that would just be a horror show, an absolute horror show. But Secretary Oylston is there as he postures and as he gaslights and as he lies. This is the same man who has said repeatedly when asked about the weapons being sent there, the weapons coming from his military, that there are no conditions being placed on these weapons. And if anyone watching had the extreme misfortune as I did to watch the spectacle that Tony Blinken put on at the United Nations today.

I've never seen or I'm trying to remember something more disconnected from reality being said in a space like as in Blinken was talking. What did he say? Well, he firstly starts off by saying how asking asking where is the condemnation for Hamas? When everybody has bent over backwards condemning Hamas, and rightfully, what occurred on October 7th was horrific. But I mean, that whole type of commitment to international rules of law, commitment to avoiding civilian casualties, just like Secretary Austin was saying, these expressions are complete fabrications. This is a Cheshire Cat type of, they're smiling as they're peeing on your leg. This is, I mean, the disgust, and now I'm having problems bringing, you know, talking

about this because it is so enraging to be lied to like this while you see thousands upon thousands being murdered. You know, this notion that we are for humanitarian aid as 130 premature babies lay in incubators in Gaza waiting for the power to be turned off in two days. I mean, this type of nightmare that is being put upon the Palestinian people, for which we are directly involved, and then to have our leaders say that they care so much about human rights, international law, the rules of warfare, how they expect the Israelis to behave themselves as they send tens of billions or get ready to send tens of billions of more weapons to the Israelis. I mean, it's just maddening. It's excruciating and it's disgusting.

Here's Admiral Kirby. This is cut to, Chris, Kirby Kirby to about conversations the American government is having with the Israeli government. You've been asking tough questions about the Israelis about their strategy here. Are you liking the answers that they're giving you? I'm not going to talk about the details of the conversations that we're having. Again, these have been clear and consistent conversations. Again, making sure that they have what they need and that they are thinking through, that we are asking them what their answers are to the kinds of questions that any military ought to be asking itself. That is just, sounds like an airhead. That is just vapid and meaningless. We'll play another one for you where he does acknowledge we're sending advisors. Right.

It's a Vietnam terminology. Kirby cut one, Chris. A few relevant military officers with experience, the kinds of experience that we believe is appropriate to the sorts of operations that Israel is conducting and may conduct in the future, to go over there to share some perspectives from their own experience and to ask the hard questions, the same hard questions that we've been asking of our Israeli counterparts since the beginning. Now, translate, Matt, what he just said. Who and what rank and are they in uniform and are they armed and what will they do? Well, there's a three-star Marine general, but there will be some conventional forces, Air Force, Navy representatives, Army and Marine Corps representatives, and then, of course, the Special Operations Forces and CIA teams that are over the weekend. The White House made a major gaffe by publishing

a photo of Joe Biden with members of a Delta Force team that were that was in Israel. Delta Force is supposed to have their faces disguised, right? Correct. Exactly. And so, I mean, their role there is to advise and then to pull in those resources. But what advice are they given? These are the men that oversaw the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Why? Who would say, yes, you are the ones I want to take advice from. You guys did a bang up job there.

And then these are also the men who oversaw the way they handled, say, the Islamic State, where we can get a whole discussion of how that was an American creation because of the invasion of Iraq and then the civil war in Syria. But what they oversaw was the devastation, the complete leveling of nearly every city in Western Iraq and Northern Iraq, including Mosul, as well as in Eastern Syria, including Raqqa, because that was how they felt or was the only way that they could deal with the problem that they created when ISIS took all those territories, all those parts of Iraq and Syria. Because again, ISIS comes out of both the Iraq war and the Syrian war, which have their genesis in American foreign policy and American decisions. So you're going to take advice from these people. But I did want to bring one thing up because The Guardian was talking about this today. The

Guardian reported this, that the Americans are not just talking with the Israelis, of course, and of saying, whatever you need, we'll give you, but saying to the Egyptians, open the southern border, because Egypt, of course, borders the southern part of Gaza. Well, open the southern border for humanitarian aid. But more specifically, in this case, to let the Palestinians out. Correct. So let the Palestinians out and basically become a partner in Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign. And The Guardian is saying that the Americans are offering financial incentives, economic bribes for them to take part in this. I can tell you as someone who

has seen this, because I worked with the Dutch after I left Afghanistan in 2009, resigned in protest, I ended up working with the Dutch intelligence services a bit because they were getting out of Afghanistan. And the Americans were saying to the Dutch, if you get out of Afghanistan, if you stop having your young men and women go to Afghanistan and die in this unwinnable and counterproductive war, you are going to have consequences, including we will not send our ships to Rotterdam port anymore. So I guarantee you that Egypt is not only being enticed with economic bribes, but they are also being threatened that if you do not take part in this ethnic

cleansing campaign by opening up your gates and letting the Palestinians out, then you will pay a penalty. You won't pay a penalty for bribing and controlling an American senator. You won't pay a penalty for massacring thousands of your civilians, for having thousands of political prisoners, for jailing journalists and human rights workers, on and on and on. But if you don't take part in this ethnic cleansing campaign, then there will be a penalty. And that's, that's, that's American diplomacy. That that's what we're, that's what we as Americans are. That is a bull in a China shop. Yeah.

Last, last question, urban warfare. How long can it last? I mean, Gaza is the size of uh of manhattan maybe a little bit bigger how long can urban warfare last as long as the hamas will will hold out or as long as the israelis keep sending people in there to be slaughtered as long as the mosque can hold out uh and the thing will be the political will of Israel and how they choose to pursue this. You have to imagine that Hamas is stockpiled to fight for a year, at least. It took the Iraqis nine months to take Mosul. And that was with the full backing of the American Air Force, the American Navy, the American Special Operations Command, you know, et cetera. So this idea that this will only take

a week or two, certainly I don't see any guidance in history that an urban battle like what we're potentially seeing in Gaza, where Hamas is prepared to fight to the death, where this is all of history has led to the point for their young men. families victimized by Israel. They've been humiliated by Israel. Many of them have a family who have been killed by Israel. History leads to this point for those young men. And so the idea that Israel is going to come in and scare them and chase them away and they're going to surrender, that's not possible. So I think it will come down to the political will of Israel, whether they want to go through with a campaign of urban warfare that will last possibly for months. And then what do you get out of it? What are you going to do? You're going to occupy Gaza? You're going to garrison 30,000 Israeli troops?

You're going to imprison all the military age males? What are you going to do? Here's a clip. I think it's an Israeli general or an Israeli spokesperson on how long guerrilla warfare in Gaza cut eight, Chris, the old age. It's one of the most densest places on Earth. And you have Gaza on the surface. You also have Gaza of the subterranean. Hamas claims to have built a 300-mile hidden network,

training videos showing fighters emerging from holes in the ground to launch attacks. In 2014, we were shown a tunnel dug by the group that led all the way to the Israeli side. Many of the nearly 200 hostages are believed to be held in this underground maze, complicating further an all-out assault. Previous ground incursions, like in 2014, saw Israeli forces invade and withdraw within a matter of weeks. This is likely to last much longer. Is that even possible? Two years, three years, five years, doesn't matter. We are going to protect our civilians.

Two years, three years, five years. That's a long time for urban warfare to go on. I suppose it depends upon Hamas's resistance and Israeli determination. And the Israelis are enraged that what Hamas did is understandable. It depends on whether that rage dissipates into another way to approach this. Yeah. And we have to remember that Hamas has experience coming out of Syria, and they are now, their relationship following that civil war has been reestablished with Iran and with Hezbollah. And so their their experience, their knowledge is quite good.

These are not even though they are in that open air prison. They do have a recent history of warfare that is going to really enable them. And a lot of people, you go back and look at that 2014 incursion, the way Hamas responded, the way their command and control, their operational maneuver of their brigades surprised a lot of people. This is not a disjointed group of guys with RPKs and RPGs and AK-47s who are just going to fire from windows as Israelis advance. Israelis are going into something that, again, the Gazans, Hamas have prepared for 15 years,

and they have relevant recent experience, and they have, again, this history of their young men who are going to be doing the fighting, motivated by Israeli action against their families. So what Israel is walking into, my God, I mean, and I do now, as I, you know, obviously I'm not neutral about this. I think my bias probably shows, but also too, my thoughts are with those young Israeli men and women who would be going into this, that horror. And I don't want to see anyone go through this. And so, you know, certainly the idea of what we may be talking about in a month or two or three

or a year from now, Judge, good God. I mean, one of the things people need to understand too, is that right now the Israelis are on pace to kill and wound as many Palestinians as the Russians have killed and wounded Ukrainian civilians in 20 months. So in 20 months, Russia has killed about as many Ukrainian civilians as Israel is on pace to do in one month. Wow. Matt, thank you very much for your time. As gloomy as this is, the insight is so appreciated by the audience and by me. We'll look forward to seeing you again next week. All right. Thanks, Judge. Thank you. Coming up at three o'clock Eastern, Lieutenant Colonel Karen Kwiatkowski on the similar subjects that we just discussed with Matt Ho. Judge Napolitano for judging freedom. Thank you.