Judging Freedom - Pepe Escobar: World Reaction to Trump On Gaza.

Episode Date: February 6, 2025

Pepe Escobar: World Reaction to Trump On Gaza.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Thank you. Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Thursday, February 6th, 2025. It is almost midnight in Moscow, for which we are deeply grateful as we welcome Pepe Escobar. Pepe, thank you very much. Thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for accommodating my schedule. Much appreciated. As soon as President Trump made his announcement about the United States will own Gaza, I thought immediately of you and your ability to survey the reaction around the world. But before we get there, two days ago, General Keith Kellogg, who's the president's emissary advisor, if you will, on Russia and Ukraine, made a proposal for a ceasefire with a demilitarized zone patrolled by British troops between Eastern and Western Ukraine.

Wouldn't something like this just be left off the table in the Kremlin? But this is completely absurd. Kellogg obviously doesn't pay attention to President Putin, to Lavrov, to Ryabkov, to Medvedev, to Nebenzia at the UN. This is out of the picture from day minus one. And in fact, the Kremlin has to repeat over and over again that this is not only about Ukraine. This is a wider discussion about the end of the war and, of course, about indivisibility of security, a new nuclear arrangement, etc. And on Ukraine, they are very specific. Since Putin laid down the law in June last year, no demilitarized zone, no foreign peacekeepers. It's the end of the war that they

wanted with demilitarized Ukraine, non-nuclear Ukraine, now especially this sweaty sweatshirt is talking about nuclear weapons, no entry into NATO, a neutral Ukraine, and a definitive end of the war, return of teaching of Russian in other parts of Ukraine apart from Novosibirsk, all that. How close is the Russian military to achieving its goals so that President Putin can say, you can stand down? This is one of the key questions in all the corridors of power or near corridors of power or academic circles here in Moscow. For instance, I just crossed a little bit of Moscow to be here with you. I arrived 10 minutes ago at my place. I was at an outstanding, outstanding event, a master class, a closed master class of Alexander Shostkin, who's very, very close to President Putin. And basically, he is the liaison between Putin and hardcore businesses

like Norisk, Nickel or Gazprom, for instance, and smaller businessmen as well. So I was invited by one of them. It was outstanding because I had the chance to ask a lot of businessmen about the war. And it's a 50-50. Some of them believe that the war is going to end this year on the conditions imposed by Russia, and some believe that it will go on until 2026 because the Americans will keep sending weapons to Ukraine. So it's quite divided. What is not divided is what the Kremlin wants and has advertised and what the Russian Security Council has explained over and over again. Why wouldn't Trump and his people understand the basics?

And when they say things that they know are inconceivable, Don't they run the risk of insulting the Russians? They are already insulting not only President Putin, but the Russian nation as a whole. outlined for a comprehensive agreement on Ukraine has been laid out now for over six months in detail by everyone, once again by everyone, from putting down all across the Ministry of Foreign Relations. Zakharova talks about this every week, etc. And we came back to the same point, George, over and over again. Trump is trying diversionist tactics not to address the main problem, which is to offer something tangible and substantial to Russia, because he can't, or he won't, or his hand is too weak. That's option number three. In fact, it's the real one.

And obviously, he changes the narrative. And that's why we have a next session of Canada, a next session of Greenland, Gulf of America, Gaza as a big Riviera. Right, right. Yeah. All right. We're going to play a little clip for you. There's some cutting in thererip and we will do a job with it, too. We'll own it and be responsible for dismantling all of the dangerous unexploded bombs and other weapons on the site. Level the site and get rid of the destroyed buildings, level it out, create an economic development that will supply unlimited numbers of jobs and housing for the people of the area.

You were talking tonight about the United States taking over a sovereign territory. What authority would allow you to do that? Are you talking about a permanent occupation there, redevelopment? I do see a long-term ownership position, and I see it bringing great stability to that part of the Middle East and maybe the entire Middle East. And everybody I've spoken to, this was not a decision made lightly. Everybody I've spoken to loves the idea of the United States owning that piece of land, developing and creating thousands of jobs with something that will be magnificent. I'm going to save my question about the Kremlin's reaction until the end. What was the reaction in the Arab world, in the streets, among the elites, and in the government? I'll start with the reaction here in Russia, George, not by the Kremlin.

This week we were at the Valdai Club. And we were together with two of our very, very good friends, Alistair Crook and Professor Marandi from the University of Tehran. The three of us, we spent a lot of time together discussing, especially the Trump Riviera Resort and Casino option. Over there, this exploded right in the middle of the Valdai. Most of the people who were invited from different parts of West Asia, they were apoplectic. In fact, they didn't know what to say, really.

Marandi and Alastair is a different thing because these are among the top two analysts of West Asia. In their different way, Alastair does an extremely nuanced and intellectual analysis of the big picture. And Professor Marandi goes straight to the point, especially in terms of the relationship between Iran and Israel and with other Arab nations. The reactions across the Arab world were unanimous, obviously. Egypt and Jordan rejecting outright, even Saudi Arabia saying explicitly via the Minister of Foreign Relations that nothing will happen as long as there is not the guarantee of a sovereign Palestinian state. The BRICS condemned it. ASEAN condemned it. So virtually the whole global south condemned it.

But does Trump listen to what the global south is saying? Obviously not. What did the Kremlin, how did the Kremlin react? Do they laugh at the stupidity and foolishness of this? Or did they say, he's a negotiator, this is his opening bid? They did not react explicitly, Judge. Lavrov was at the Valdai on Tuesday. Right. He was very measured.

He opened the floor to questions afterwards. He came back to the official Russian position. Nothing happens over there as long as there's no absolute guarantee of a sovereign independent Palestinian state and that's the official Russian position. So this is the Kremlin position as it is the position of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Before that Lavrov was, of course, with his marvel of subtlety, he gave credit not to Trump personally but to the United States for the ceasefire in Gaza. But he also said the main characters in this whole drama were Qatar and Egypt, which both, by the way, are totally against the Trump Riviera Casino and Resort in Gaza. So we can say that the global majority as a whole, transcontinentally, is absolutely appalled at the idea.

But once again, and Alistair came up with a fascinating, I would say, a sideline explanation, said, look, everybody is saying that this is a trap laid by Netanyahu against Trump. Perhaps it's the other way around. And it's going to take us a while to see that. Well, Scott Ritter is of the view that Trump was backhandedly slapping Netanyahu by saying, you can't solve the Palestinian problem, we will, and that this is Trump's opening bid. Trump never intends to move them out.

I mean, think of the practical. It wouldn't be impractical, it would be impossible, the practical impossibility of moving these people out. The Marines couldn't move them out. Nobody can move them out. Nobody can move them out, Judge. And there's a number that a lot of people paid attention. Trump said 1.7 million Palestinians.

There were 2.4 Palestinians in Gaza before October 7 and the start of the genocide. So it's indirectly saying that 600,000 Palestinians disappeared. This is something to be confirmed, I would say, short term. But it's quite alarming. But, Pepe, we know that Trump is imprecise on his numbers. He also said the Russians lost a million troops and the Russian economy is suffering. Two statements that are off the wall. Absolutely. And once again, today we were talking with, for instance, Zoschin is a top economist, very close to top business centers.

And he was talking that the Russian economy is doing very well. The problem is once again, without criticizing Nabulina directly, he said it's these high interest rates and the difficulty for businesses to get credit. Interest rates are around 25% in Russia. This is completely absurd. So yes, go ahead, please. Has there been public reaction from America's allies in Western Europe? London, Berlin, Paris, Madrid, Rome? Chihuahuas just, yep, judge.

Yep, yep, yep, yep. But they don't say anything meaningful. So, so far, from the global north in the Atlantic sphere, what I call NATO stand, basically nothing. So far. How about the EU or NATO? I haven't heard directly from Tutti Frutti or Ruti, the new NATO Secretary General, anything about the Gaza Riviera plan. Maybe this will come before the end of the week. But it's irrelevant because, as we know, Trump treats both EU and NATO as irrelevant.

He treats the combo as irrelevant. Considering that he can propose this and knowing at least or at least his intuition will tell him that the Arab world will be appalled as the whole Arab world is and the lands of Islam as a whole are appalled with it, obviously EU and NATO for him are a small detail. How about Beijing? Has there been any comment from President Xi and his people? No. The Minister of Foreign Affairs in China, once again, mirroring the Minister of Foreign Affairs here,

unified Palestinian sovereign state. Everything else is completely off the mark. So this is the BRICS position. It's not even Russia and China. The BRICS position, that's the BRICS position, and this is the

ASEAN, the 10 of Southeast Asia, and one of them is now a full BRICS member, Indonesia. And this more or less coordinates the response of the global majority. And this time, not only the BRICS and the Arab world as a whole, public opinion, I'm not talking about fake leaderships here and there and Persian Gulf monarchies, et cetera. They are completely aligned on this is completely absurd in terms of transforming a genocide

into a ethnic cleansing operation, opening the way for a real estate deal. This is completely inadmissible for 95, 97, 98% of the planet. What is your personal view? Do you think that Donald Trump has the same antagonism or antipathy or indifference to the freedom of the Palestinian people that Joe Biden had? He just expresses it in a different way? Absolutely, Judge. He expresses it in a different way. He rarely or almost never mentions the word Palestinians. When he announced the Riviera deal, he was talking about a devastated piece of land, you know, phenomenal location, etc.

The seashore. And very important, we should never forget that the first one who put this whole idea, let's put it this way, in the public domain was Jared Kushner. And I heard from some of my good New York contacts that he was the number one influencer on Trump or the whole idea, in fact. I mean, the idea that the Trump organization or Jared's, which is a different company, would actually use the power of the American government to acquire real estate and develop it is not fanciful. It's seriously being speculated about by people in the business. Is that what you're telling me? Yes, it is. And on top of it, Judge, you know it very well, it's absolutely illegal.

And this is the key point. It's absolutely illegal. It's against international law. It's a criminal operation. Basically, you're using displaced people, people who are on the verge of extermination, and re-transform the whole thing into a real estate opportunity. I would say that in modern history, you haven't seen anything similar, the way it was proposed.

There is always the possibility, as we were discussing with Alistair in detail, that this can be a maneuver. We still don't know, and we still don't know if Trump really means it or if he's one of his... Alistair... Yes, please, go ahead. Alistair, of course, is a phenomenal brain and I love and respect him dearly. He was, of course, he's on on Monday. He was on before this statement was made. I haven't had a chance to question him about it.

I will this coming Monday, February 10, but does Alistair believe that Trump is dumb like a fox, that he has something up his sleeve which will push Netanyahu back? Yes, this was the tone of our conversation, Judge, and he came back almost to the point that, and this, we have mutual friends a little bit everywhere who knows very well how Trump hates Netanyahu, essentially, and despises him and wants to control him. So maybe this is part of a plot. And we still don't have all the pieces of this particular jigsaw puzzle. We're here to be able to entrap Netanyahu. There's somebody in Trump's inner circle that did not get the message.

You'll know who this is, but you'll have to bite your tongue to listen to it. It's only a half a minute long. Cut number five, Chris. You have a long memory. We have a long memory. And may our relationship continue to endure. We're going to continue to grow our defense industrial base. We've supplied munitions that

were previously not supplied that are useful in eradicating radical enemies. And we are committed to continuing to do so. So I hope you've noticed here at the Defense Department under President Trump, we are laser focused on reviving the warrior ethos, on rebuilding America's military and reestablishing deterrence, which is something you, Prime Minister, have done in your neighborhood in impressive, aggressive and important ways. American Secretary of Defense be kissing up to the Israeli Prime Minister like that next to General Brown, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who's probably thinking what's going on here? How many of my people is he going to get killed? And reviving the warrior ethos, his own words, means giving an extra $1 billion in weapons to Israel. You are reviving Israel's warrior ethos, not the U.S.

At the expense of the American taxpayers. If Israel didn't pay for that $1 billion, we gave it to them. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly, exactly. Judge, seriously, if we could apply a little bit of platonic dialectics to this whole thing, we'll still be lost in space completely. There is something that is off with the whole Riviera Resort and casino operation. There's something off and it smells like they're not telling us the whole story.

Even if we put together Jared's influence, the fact that this was already being discussed by the Trump family and people around it, the fact that this might be a way to force Netanyahu to keep respecting the ceasefire. And if he doesn't respect, he will be in deep trouble. But if he respects the ceasefire, this means the end of the war. And Netanyahu doesn't want the end of the war. Correct. What is your view of the significance, if any, of the absence of the American Secretary of State from this half-day meeting between the Israeli Prime Minister and the President of the United States? Marco Rubio was then and still is in Latin America.

In fact, he made a statement from Latin America, which shows how out of touch he is with all of this. He is. I don't have the number. Hang on one second. It's cut number seven. Listen to this. What President Trump said yesterday is an acknowledgment of the following. Gaza has been severely damaged.

If you look at the aerial imagery, you see what's happening. The billions of dollars that are going to be required for reconstruction are enormous. Some areas have been rendered unlivable now and for the foreseeable future. And so what the president what President Trump announced yesterday is the offer, the willingness of the United States to become responsible for the reconstruction of that area. And while you are rebuilding, while you're clearing debris, by the way, there are unexploded munitions. There are all kinds of Hamas weaponry still buried underground. For people to be able to live in a place safely, all of that has to be removed. It's an enormous undertaking. It's a unique offer, you know, one that no other country in the world has stepped up and made an offer. But I think it's one people need to think about. Seriously, it was not meant as a hostile move. It was meant as a, I think,

a very generous move, the offer to rebuild and to be in charge of the rebuilding of a place, many parts of which right now, even if people move back, they would have nowhere to live safely because there are still unexploded munitions and debris and rubble. This is, of course, true, but I guess he's unaware of the fact that Trump's own people, namely Michael Walls, the national security advisor, and Carolyn Leavitt, the Press Secretary, have walked back a little bit what President Trump said on Tuesday. Your thoughts on all of this? Pete Hegg, Seth, General Brown, Secretary Rubio.

Well, Rubio's speciality, if you can describe it like that, is Latin America. It's especially Cuba and Venezuela, right? And trying to organize the next chapters of hybrid war against Latin American nations that misbehave. the way he referred to the Riviera operation is in the beginning of Trump 2.0, I tried to describe it as benign brutalism, the new face of the empire. Yes, benign. Look, all these people, they cannot live in a war zone like that. So we are offering a better chance for them, you know, not over there, of course, somewhere else, by the sea even. It's crazy because this doesn't take into consideration the whole tragic story of Israel-Palestine and the fact that these people are living under these horrible conditions because of a genocide and because of a deliberate policy of destroying Gaza. Obviously, this is totally absent from Rubio's reasoning.

So he is trying to defend something that he doesn't even understand. Yes. Pepe, thank you very much i know it's practically tomorrow where you are and uh appreciate you running to the camera earlier than we originally scheduled uh we thank you especially for your insight into all of these things and your unique perspective all the best my dear friend the action never stops here judge right if you see alistair again, maybe he's on his way back to London or to Rome. No, we're going to have dinner tomorrow night, and you're going to talk to him. He will be in Italy next time.

Tell him I love him. He knows that. Yeah, of course. Thank you. We all love you. Thank you. Thank you, my dear man. Thank you.

Tomorrow at 4 o'clock, not 4.30 as usual, but at 4 o'clock not 4 30 as usual but at four o'clock friday afternoon summarizing all of this putting a bow on the box the intelligence community round table with ray mcgovern and larry johnson judge napolitano for judging freedom I'm out.