Judging Freedom - Prof. Jeffery Sachs: A Deep Dive into the ICJ ruling and Diplomacy

Episode Date: January 26, 2024

Prof. Jeffery Sachs: A Deep Dive into the ICJ ruling and DiplomacySee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Resolve to earn your degree in the new year in the Bay with WGU. WGU is an online accredited university that specializes in personalized learning. With courses available 24-7 and monthly start dates, you can earn your degree on your schedule. You may even be able to graduate sooner than you think by demonstrating mastery of the material you know. Make 2025 the year you focus on your future. Learn more at wgu.edu. Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Friday, January 26th, 2024. Our dear friend, Professor Jeffrey Sachs from Columbia University joins us now. Professor Sachs, it's a pleasure, my dear friend. Thank you for taking time from your schedule to join us.

I know that you are familiar with the ruling earlier today of the International Court of Justice in The Hague. What is your big picture take from this ruling, Professor Sachs? Big picture is it's devastating for Israel. Basically, Israel was charged with genocide and the International Court of Justice said that's very plausible. That is astounding. Israel is a country that was born in the aftermath of the genocide against the Jewish people. And now Israel is being accused and the court saysibly so, with the genocide against the Palestinian people. I think it is an absolutely astounding and historic moment.

You know, of course, all the spin doctors immediately went to work. Oh, they didn't order a ceasefire. They didn't do this. It's only preliminary. This is devastating, in my opinion, and it's devastating because what Israel is doing is devastating. And when you listened to the decision, the court cited evidence, and it cited evidence calmly and dispassionately, but very clearly. It cited the UN leadership, the Secretary General, the head of the World Health Organization, other UN leaders. It cited the statements of the Israeli politicians themselves showing genocidal intent. And I don't think that there is any way to say other than the fact that Israel should be devastated and ashamed that it has gotten itself into this position. Of course, they're spinning it in different ways, but I don't care how they're spinning it. It is devastating in my

view. So Israel put a lot of its eggs in the basket of its argument that the court did not have jurisdiction and South Africa did not have standing, that it is that it couldn't bring the case because it couldn't show that it was harmed. The vote rejecting that argument was 17 to nothing. That was the only unanimous vote. And remember, one of the members of this court was added to the court by the Israeli government, just as one of the members of the court was added to the court by the Israeli government, just as one of the members of the court was added to the court by the South African government. The ruling that was 15 to 2, well, let's listen to that ruling. So this is the second clip, Chris, which is the first ruling about what Israel is now supposed to be prohibited from doing. I shall now read out the operative part of the order.

For these reasons, the court indicates the following provisional measures. One, by 15 votes to two, the state of Israel shall, in accordance with its obligations under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide in relation to the Palestinians in Gaza, take all measures within its power to prevent the commission of all acts within the scope of Article 2 of the Convention. In particular, A, killing members of the group. B, causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group. C, deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part. And D, imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group.

Group is, of course, the group, of course, has previously been defined in that order as the Palestinian people. How is it that Netanyahu and his colleagues can claim that they somehow were not characterized as having participated in genocide? Actually, before you answer that, Chris, read the next one, also 15 to 2, play the next one, and then play the one after that 16 to 1. The 16 to 1 is profound. By 16 votes to 1, the state of Israel shall take all measures within its power to prevent and punish the direct and public incitement to commit genocide in relation to members of the Palestinian group in the Gaza Strip. By 15 votes to 2, the State of Israel shall ensure, with immediate effect,

that its military does not commit any acts described in point 1 above. So, point 1 above is no killing, no bodily harm, no physical destruction to members of the group, Palestinian civilians, 15 to 2. You shall stop and punish those who agitate for genocide, 16 to 1. The one is the judge from Uganda, meaning the Israeli judge, the retired chief justice of the Israeli Supreme Court is in the majority on that one. That would mean that President or Prime Minister Netanyahu would have to silence and punish himself, along with Ben-Gavir and Smotrich and the other fanatics who have been calling for genocide? What this ruling is based on, of course, is exactly the language of the Genocide Convention of 1948. So Article 2 lays out the definition of genocide, and it is what the chief judge described in that clip, killing members of the group, causing serious bodily or mental harm, and so on. And clearly, this is what has been happening on a massive scale. Israel has been

engaged in genocidal actions. The court did not make a final determination of that. That will take months or a year or even two years. But the court said that there are grounds for this challenge made by South Africa. Now, in our world of spin, as we discuss every week, our governments lie nonstop. John Kirby at the White House almost never says a sentence of truth except by accident or because it's incidental. Our State Department almost never speaks the truth. The Israeli government lies from morning till night. But in the court, you don't get away with that. And what was interesting for me in the court proceedings was the methodical nature in which the court in a short period of time said, look, this looks to be happening and it has to stop. Now, immediately, Netanyahu and the State Department, because they are

completely complicit in this, said, oh, Israel's already doing all of these things. Nobody should believe that for one moment. Israel has been murdering civilians. And by the way, there are clips of murder in cold blood. I just watched one today by ITV where people, Palestinian men waving a white flag were gunned down by the Israelis in cold blood. And of course, the dropping of bombs, you don't get to 28,000 dead. Those are the ones counted, not the ones under the rubble. You don't get to 28,000 dead, 70% women and children by taking care. But what's interesting about our world is we're exactly in the world of George Orwell, 1984. They say whatever they want. The Israelis lie, the State Department lies, the White House lies, but the court of public opinion and the International Court of Justice is not going to accept that. So Israel is on the path of being found to be committing genocide. It didn't

happen today, but that's the path that they're on. They can fake it, they can lie, they can say whatever they want, but the devastating record that they are creating is going to haunt them for generations to come. You mentioned Admiral Kirby. We have a clip from him. Now, I didn't realize we were taping it, so there's a little bit of my voice in there. Obviously, I wasn't there. But here's Admiral Kirby just about 10 minutes ago. Well, you'll hear him. Causes any permanent damage to the bilateral relationship... And I'm wondering, how does the U.S. repair relations with South Africa, which is a big voice for non-aligned countries in the global south?

I don't believe that our disagreement over the founding claim of the allegation causes any permanent damage to the bilateral relationship with South Africa. We just happen to disagree on that point. But we're also going to keep working on that relationship as we do many others. So you fundamentally

believe the U.S., they claim that the U.S. is supporting a genocidal state. That is not going to impact relations with South Africa. I don't believe I heard that from South Africa. South Africa filed a case based on allegations that they believe genocide was being conducted by Israel in Gaza. This is live, Chris. We simply have said consistently we find that that claim is unfounded.

And the court also did not find Israel guilty of genocide. It told Israel to stop the genocide. This is a provisional, immediate emergency ruling, not the end of a long trial at which volumes and volumes of evidence have been produced. I want to play for you, before you comment on this, Professor Sachs, the South African foreign minister. It is clear who she's talking about when she says Israel has some important friends that need to put the brakes on this. We are satisfied that the provisional measures that we sought to be addressed would be addressed by the court. And I believe if you read the convention very carefully, the matter of how

a war or conflict is conducted is not elaborated. I would have wanted that the word cessation is included in the judgment. I have no way that I'm going to say I'm disappointed. I hoped for it, but the fact of delivering humanitarian aid, the fact of taking measures that reduce the levels of harm against persons who have no role in what Israel is combating, for me requires a ceasefire. And I believe Israel would have to attend to how it conducts its search for the hostages and for those Hamas individuals who carried out the October 7 attack. I've never really been hopeful about Israel, but Israel has very powerful friends who I hope

will advise Israel that they should act. It's obvious who she's talking about at the end there. It's very painful for me to watch Kirby. He stands there with the words White House behind him. We want to have some measure of respect for our government. He personally utters inanities. He was completely dismissive of South Africa's case. I think he used the word meritless, but he used other adjectives as well. And without a moment of reflection, he continues merrily along after today's ruling. He's a disgrace, personally, in my opinion.

But the White House is a disgrace as well. They believe they don't have to be accountable to anybody. They don't have to be accountable to truth. They don't have to be accountable to truth. They don't have to be accountable to the International Court of Justice. They don't have to speak like grownups about anything. They believe in spin. All they want to do is get through the day. They want to be reelected. They're not going to make it because the public is disgusted. Too much war, too many lies, no leadership, and no truth. It's really terrible. And by the way, all this cleverness of the United States, all this spin every day, everybody else in the world knows. I just came back from a long trip through Asia,

where I spoke with leaders across Asia. People know, they are aghast at what is happening. And this is a worldwide opinion. So America, even in a recent vote of the UN General Assembly, stood with, as we talked about last week, with Israel, the United States, Micronesia, and Nauru. Micronesia with its 110,000 people, Nauru with its 12,000 people, Micronesia bound by compact to vote with the United States. We are completely isolated. And they think they're so clever because they have the bombs. They think they can just get away with whatever they want. But it doesn't work that way.

And today was another step of truth. And there's no way that this is going to be just spun away, though they merrily are trying. Oh, yes, State Department has said today, this is what we are always telling Israel as we hand them the bombs for the next thousands of kids killed. I know that you give a lot of advice to diplomats at the UN, but while you were in Asia, the following happened at the Security Council while the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations was speaking. The Middle East is suffering from a cancer, and up until today, the Security Council has only ever discussed providing aspirin. Cancer, Mr. President,

is not treated with aspirin. Can you imagine Hitler's foreign minister participating in a serious discussion on how to defend the Jews during the Holocaust? Without Iran, the Houthis would not have advanced cruise missiles or UAVs to target merchant vessels in the Red Sea. And as we all know, Iranian drones are being used by Russia to kill civilians in Ukraine. Iran's terror will reach all of you. And his words will fall on deaf ears. They all stormed out. They all left. Is this common for large groups of diplomats to walk out when someone is saying something contrary to the truth? I've never seen it. And I wasn't there

last week because I was halfway around the world. I've never seen that. But I think the Israelis, they really don't get it. They really are in a complete bubble. talk, their own beliefs, and their talk with the United States, which reconfirms for them that they will have the munitions that they want. And they don't listen to the rest of the world. They snicker at the rest of the world. They call it anti-Semitism. They call it whatever they want, but they don't get it. And it's extraordinarily serious. They are bringing Israel to the brink of its own complete delegitimation by their own actions, and they don't understand what they're doing, how grave the offenses are that they are committing. One last clip for you.

I'll preface it by saying, you know, I am your fan and your friend, but this will raise your blood pressure even more so. This is Prime Minister Netanyahu three hours ago. Israel's commitment to international law is unwavering. Equally unwavering is our sacred commitment to continue to defend our country and defend our people. Like every country, Israel has an inherent right to defend itself. The vile attempt to deny Israel this fundamental right is blatant discrimination against the Jewish state, and it was justly rejected. The charge of genocide leveled against Israel is not only false, it's outrageous, and decent people everywhere should reject it.

On the eve of the International Holocaust Remembrance Day, I again pledge as Israel's Prime Minister, never again. Israel will continue to defend itself against Hamas, a genocidal terror organization. On October 7, Hamas perpetrated the most horrific atrocities against the Jewish people since the Holocaust, and it vows to repeat these atrocities again and again and again. Our war is against Hamas terrorists, not against Palestinian civilians. We will continue to facilitate humanitarian assistance and to do our utmost to keep civilians out of harm's way, even as Hamas uses civilians as human shields. We will continue to do what is necessary to defend our country and defend our people.

How can he say his war is not against civilians and we will do our best to keep civilians out of harm's way? They have slaughtered, slaughtered between 25 and 27,000 civilians, including 8,000 to 9,000 children under the age of seven. We've seen it ourselves. We've seen the bombings of the hospitals, the schools, the apartment blocks, the killing in cold blood on the streets. We see it with our own eyes. He is despicable. He's especially despicable to quote the Holocaust and never again, as he is committing genocidal acts. It's really doing such grave damage to his country that it's hard to fathom. I don't think many people in Israel understand how deep and grave the damage is. But the toll is phenomenally large. We're not at the end of this, obviously.

And what he said is false. It is repulsive. And it is an extraordinary harm to Israel, of course, not to mention the devastation to the people of Palestine. Before we go, do you expect that the ruling by the International Court of Justice today will have any short-term or long-term effect on either the Israel loss of the PR war or Israel's behavior in Gaza? bound to understand that American complicity in this is devastating to our own well-being, our own purpose, our own meaning as a nation, and our own security. So it is through the effects on the United States where this will be felt. I don't think that the Israeli government would take any cognizance of this on its own. But Israel cannot fight this war even for one day if Mr.

Biden and Mr. Blinken say stop. And Biden is absolutely losing political support across the country because the American people do not want to be complicit in mass murder. Professor Sachs, thank you very much. Thank you so much for, I know you just arrived from 10,000 miles away and you ran through the camera. An important day. Yeah, it is. It is an important day. It is profound. Um, you, uh, listened, uh, on the plane to everything that was said, I'm going to spend the weekend reading, uh, all of it and we'll talk about it more next week, but thank you for your time, Jeff. It's a pleasure. All the best to you. Very good. Thank you. See you next week. Right. Uh, I. A very busy, very hectic week for us. We've brought you, as best we can, the profound issues, the cutting edge issues of our day.

All of our regulars will be on next week. Judge Napolitano for Judging Freedom. Thanks for watching!