Judging Freedom - Prof. Jeffrey Sachs: Can Palestine Be Free?

Episode Date: August 7, 2024

Prof. Jeffrey Sachs: Can Palestine Be Free?See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Resolve to earn your degree in the new year in the Bay with WGU. With courses available online 24-7 and monthly start dates, WGU offers maximum flexibility so you can focus on your future. Learn more at wgu.edu. so so Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here with Judging Freedom. Today is Tuesday, August 6, 2024. My dear friend, Professor Sachs joins us now. Professor Jeffrey Sachs, thank you very much for your time as always. Here's an easy one for you. Will Palestine ever be free? Yes, and sooner than we think. The situation is so intolerable, so outrageous.

The Israeli position is so extreme that I actually believe we will have a a breakthrough not because of israel changing its attitudes but because of the world forcing a solution and that will come sooner than we think and do you think that that uh world forcing a solution uh will come because of violence against Israel is rising and obvious and is a major threat to Israel, a threat that Israel has fully provoked on its part. So Israel has done extraordinary damage to itself, of course, diplomatically and militarily and in basic security terms. It has isolated Israel entirely in the world community, but for one country that continues, at least to this moment, to back it, and that is the United States. Of course, it's done horrendous harm to the Palestinians, so I don't want to be misunderstood, but it has made so much self-harm, it's astounding.

What do you see happening that would result in Palestinian freedom, and can it possibly happen with the current Israeli government under Prime Minister Netanyahu? Well, the U.S. position has been that any solution to the Israel-Palestine crisis must be through a negotiated agreement. But this is a phony idea. It has just meant that Israel has a veto over Palestinian rights. And indeed, the United States has backed up that veto, no matter how outrageous, how murderous, how criminal, and now how genocidal Israel's actions have been. So the U.S. position has on the surface had a ring of plausibility that the two sides should negotiate and that the U.S. supports a two-state solution. But Israel manifestly opposes a two-state solution. Even the Israeli parliament, the Knesset, voted formally

recently to reject a state of Palestine. So the U.S. position has been to give a veto to Israeli extremism. This is completely intolerable. It has passed the charade of American politics. It, as I said, seems to have a glimmer of plausibility to it. So all of this is to say that a solution needs to be imposed, imposed by the United Nations. That means by the UN Security Council, which has the power to impose the two-state solution and to put in peacekeepers, even to put in military enforcement to back the UN Security Council. That's all within the power of the UN Charter. The UN General Assembly can back the call of the 15 members of the UN Security Council by a demonstration of the overwhelming support for the solution by the world community.

We're actually not far from that because we are just one veto away. Again, the United States stands as the last sole protector of Israel's genocidal behavior. The U.S. is complicit in a genocide right now. This is understood by young people in the United States. It may increasingly be understood. Whenever I say this, by the way, I get mail from older people who take great exception that I said that. I'm speaking statistically. On average, the younger people tend to understand this at a higher proportion than older people. But there are many older people, including myself, who see this for what it is. I believe that American politics will not endlessly sustain this horrendous situation, partly because Israeli extremism become so vulgar, so blatant, so clearly in violation of every standard of decency,

every norm, and every piece of the international law that, as I say, more and more Americans get this, even in our pretty dim-witted Washington political class. And the international community gets it. And Israel is increasingly vulnerable, strictly on military terms. The U.S. cannot save Israel the way that Israel is going because Iran is more and more powerful. Hezbollah is powerful. The shocking behavior by Israel is uniting more and more of the Arab world. So Israel has put itself in dire threat. You mentioned a few minutes ago that the idea of the United Nations organizing, orchestrating, creating, sustaining, I don't want to put words in your mouth, Palestinian freedom is one veto away. Do you really mean would have a different representative with a different attitude if Kamala Harris is president than we do under Joe Biden and would under Donald Trump with respect to the freedom of the Palestinian people? much of a difference per se, but I do think the American deep state has to take note that what is happening in Israel and in the Middle East is adverse to U.S. interests and to global peace.

This is not shaping up the way the American deep state wants or expects. Israel itself is far more vulnerable. The United States is far more isolated. American public opinion, which somehow has to be managed through the standard narratives and pablum and lies and so forth, has to be addressed because it is turning strongly against U.S. government policy. So I'm not talking about a particular election result. I'm talking about a change of U.S. longstanding policy because it doesn't work. Eventually, the U.S. changes bad policies. Of course, there's the famous quotation of Winston Churchill, that the U.S. always does the right thing after it's tried everything else. And it may be the case in this longstanding conflict, which after all is now 57 years since the 1967 war. Can we comfortably and with intellectual honesty

conclude that Prime Minister Netanyahu and his government were never serious about negotiating for a ceasefire for the return of the hostages from the fact that they assassinated the principal Hamas negotiator? Well, I think that there's a deeper point, which is that Netanyahu has never given a moment's honest consideration to a state of Palestine. This is the core of his political party, the Likud. It's pretty deep in Israeli politics, period. Israeli politics has become more and more extreme over the years, so it's become more and more true. Now, if you start from the premise that there is going to be no acceptable political solution, that the only solution on offer by Israel is apartheid at the least, ethnic cleansing or genocide in an escalating fashion, then issues like ceasefires become basically impossible

because everything is done with the context of where is this heading. Hezbollah or Hamas or others aren't interested in a ceasefire in which they, whatever, give the returning hostages just to have Israel resume its genocidal attacks a week or two or a month later. And so everything has the longterm cast over it. And the fundamental problem is that the Israeli government, in the most basic and blatant and absolutely unambiguous way, is opposed to anything other than continued Israeli apartheid rule or ethnic cleansing or genocide. And we have people who are so shocking in what they say, like the finance minister, Ben Gavir, or Smotrich, excuse me, Smotrich, who, together with the interior minister, Ben GGavir make statements that are blatantly calling for genocide, saying it's okay to starve to death two million people if they won't return

the hostages. And returning the hostages is in a political context in which they say, well, Israel, of course, is going to continue to dominate the Palestinian people. So the core point, Judge, in all of this is that there has been no political perspective or solution on the horizon for one glimmer of a moment. And that's because at the core of Netanyahu's politics and this government's politics, there's a complete rejection, utter and total and unambiguous and unmovable of Palestinian political rights. Given that, what else is going to occur except continued violence and war? And the United States is a party to all of this. And either Blinken and Sullivan, and God knows if Biden is still alert to any of this, who knows. But they don't acknowledge this basic truth for one moment.

And that's what's so sad and pathetic about American policy. You can't negotiate ceasefires and temporary solutions if there's no political prospect in sight. But Netanyahu does not preside over a liberal democracy, presides over an authoritarian theocracy. And you can't really reason with people like Smotrich and Ben-Gavir. They favor torture. They favor horrific torture. They favor immunity for the horrific tortures. They favor jailbreaks when their people are arrested and prosecuted. They favor bullets in the head and the theory that they need to have more beds in the jails. I mean, there's no reason reason with. A lot of Israeli society at this point, traumatized, propagandized followers of extremist beliefs, whatever the various reasons, agrees with this. They don't

like Netanyahu as an individual. They don't trust him because he is a crook and fundamentally dishonest, but they don't oppose the ruthlessness of this extremist government. And that's widespread, at least according to the opinion surveys in Israel. This is a complete tragedy and a devastation of a breakdown of the most basic standards in society. Now, what do you do in this context? Of course, you have to impose a solution, first to protect the Palestinian people, period. Second, because Israel will come to its senses at some time in the future, but not now. It doesn't demonstrate any sense in this. And it's not only Netanyahu and Ben-Gabir and Smotrich and the other extremists, though they are the perpetrators, but it is broader Israeli society right now, which is traumatized.

It's been propagandized relentlessly. It does not see the context or care about the context. It's been told that this is the Holocaust revisited, or it's been told that this is God's redemptive plan, because a lot of the images are biblical from 2,600 years ago. It's such a mess. But this is something that the world community can stop and needs to stop and needs to say, okay, we know what the solution is because there's only one that is on the table, that is on offer, that is possible, practicable, and in line with decades of international law. That is two states living side by side with a wall between them, with peacekeepers between them. They can hate each other, but it's two states living side by side on the June 4th, 1967 borders with Palestine's capital in East Jerusalem and Palestinian control over the Islamic holy sites.

This is the story, and it can be imposed tomorrow by the UN Security Council. clip for you from the turkish foreign minister um just yesterday and ask you your uh comments on it number seven chris it is no longer acceptable for america to try to sweep aside and mitigate every evil israel does let them heed our warnings i say this as the children of the region as the people of the region, as the people of the region. The emotional atmosphere the region is going through, the psychological state of the people, the images of massacres they see on the screen every day, the fact that no help is being extended to the helpless Palestinians.

And in the face of this, Muslim countries are constantly being lectured on other unnecessary issues, has long since exceeded the limits of tolerance in terms of democracy and human rights. Since exceeded the limits of tolerance in terms of democracy and human rights, what do you expect Iran will do? And what do you expect the powers in the region will do in response to the two Israeli assassinations, one in Beirut and one in Tehran? Let me first say that Turkey has a very sophisticated diplomacy.

It's not only sophisticated on its own merits, but it reflects a diplomacy of several hundred years of continuity and knowledge in the region. So I have enormous respect for Turkey and its diplomatic skills, by the way, also helping in 2022 to broker peace between Ukraine and Russia that the U.S. and U.K. then shut down. So when you hear that... I guess Tony Blinken doesn't Russia that the U.S. and U.K. then shut down. So when you hear the Turkish- And I guess Tony Blinken doesn't even know the Turkish foreign minister. Yes. When you hear the Turkish foreign minister speak in these terms, we should really respect that. This is, you know, I respect any foreign minister speaking, but this is a very serious country with a very serious diplomacy. It's also

a NATO member. It should be taken extremely seriously. The irony, of course, about Iran is that Iran has been, let us say, repeatedly patient, quite the opposite of how it's portrayed, as Israel has carried out assassinations, and the most recent assassination, of course, on the very occasion of the inauguration of the new moderate Iranian president. So absolutely, Israel trying to provoke a wider war and assuming that all of those congressmen who stood up and gave Netanyahu the 56 standing ovations will quickly launch into a US-led war against Iran, one that would be utterly devastating and could easily draw in Russia and could easily turn into a world war. But this is what Israel is trying to do. So you ask me what will happen. Israel keeps provoking, and there will be a reaction and a very dangerous one.

What's extraordinary and why I hold Blinken in such low opinion is that you hear by the hour how the U.S. is trying to urge moderation of the Iranians. But what about a statement, just one statement publicly about Israel? Lincoln is so dishonest that he thinks that we're going to have all this diplomacy with Iran, after the U.S. shames, attacks Iran repeatedly, watches as Israel attacks Iran, even when Israel attacked Iran's diplomatic mission in Damascus, the U.S. protected Israel by blocking a U.N. Security Council consideration of that wholly illegal attack, a direct violation of the rules of diplomatic conduct. But the U.S. protected Israel and then went on to deeply criticize Iran when it retaliated. And then they say, oh, we're working with Iran to try to convince them for moderation. Well, it's a disgrace of Blinken that he can't seem to tell the truth or know the truth, perhaps, one moment during his time as Secretary of State. Talk about Israel. Stop Israel's abuse. If you want moderation,

start with Israel. Israel is the one that is making these crimes. This morning, Senator Lindsey Graham introduced legislation authorizing the use of military force against Iran, claiming that Iran is a threat to American national security. I don't want to raise your blood pressure. I was just going to say, if you mention Lindsey Graham to me, you are provoking me. The man is the stupidest person in the Senate. And let's just get it out on the record.

I'm sorry to say it because you could say at any time over the past years, he never says anything in America's interest. He's a disgrace. Let's just get it straight. He's a complete liar and a disgrace. So that's all. If he says it, it's almost surely wrong. Well, when he finished his speech and went in the gallery behind where the speech was given, Prime Minister Netanyahu was seen huddling with, you ready for this, Senator Lindsey Graham, Senator Tom Cotton, Senator Josh Hawley. Gee, I wonder what they were promising him. Probably whatever he asked for. You know, somebody is going to stand up for America's interests and going to war with Iran and provoking World War III is not America's interest. It's completely phony. It is, yes, to support Israel's genocide,

Israel's extremism, that's all. There's otherwise no conceivable reason for it at all. And so, you know, Lindsey Graham, I don't try to argue with these never right. Yesterday at this time, Professor Sachs, former Soviet Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu was in Tehran. Russian Defense Minister. Russian. Did I say Soviet? Russian. Yes. Forgive me. Was in Tehran. He had a large Russian entourage with him and he brought a lot of

equipment with him. He's not the defense minister anymore. He's the chair of the National Security Council. He's the Jake Sullivan of the Russian government. What do you think went on there? I think that Russia and Iran are allies. They're both members of the BRICS nations. They both view with alarm what is happening right now. Russia says and is correct that it is in war with the United States. The U.S. is not only a direct ally, but basically deeply engaged and enabling everything that Israel is doing. So this is the spread of the U.S.-Russia conflict. And it's extraordinarily dangerous, especially when it is on such outrageous reasons, completely unacceptable reasons, that Israel, in its most extreme government in its modern history, I would say at least since 66 AD when the zealots ruled the country.

It's absolutely shocking that the U.S. would walk deeper into a global conflict like this. What is the predicament of President al-Sisi of Egypt now, protecting the southern border, having a population deeply, profoundly, overwhelmingly at odds with his lethargy and feeling sympathy for the Palestinians, fearful of losing Suez again. What do you think is going on? You know, every day that we talk about this, wonder what's happening, wonder what Iran is going to do. Israel is killing more and more innocent people. It's bombing clinics, it's bombing hospitals, it's bombing schools, it's killing children. And so

for the Arab world, they're looking on this horror every day. They see more of it than we do, partly because it's in their neighborhood, partly because our mainstream media keeps a lot of this out of view. And I see it and others that look for it and you see it, but not everybody in the West sees it because the mainstream media hide a lot of this, but not in Egypt, not in Jordan, not in Iraq, not in Iran. And so the buildup of hate and the deliberate Israeli provocations and now one suicide after another, of course, this is a boiling point. And then the imbecility, it's the only word I can think of, of this administration, how it talks, trying to convince Iran to be moderate and so forth, rather than taking on the fundamental issue, which is Israeli complete, shameless torture, war crimes, genocidal behavior. This is, of course, leading to a boiling point. It's hard to predict where the explosion next happens because it could be anywhere.

Secretary Austin says the United States will defend Israel if Iran attacks. I presume that means naval and air power and not troops on the ground. If Iran appears to be struggling, will the Kremlin help it? Yes. I think this was clearly the message of Shoigu's visit to Tehran, that Russia and Iran are allied. And surely there would be military help. I don't think one could doubt that for a moment. What can I say to make you happy? I know it's late at night where you are

and you've exploded on all this brilliantly and articulately as you always do, but I'm your friend and I feel badly that, oh, I know what we can do to make you happy, Chris. All right. Chris, play the montage of Joe Biden and company saying, do we have it? Russia has lost, Russia has lost, Russia has lost. All right, we don't have it. Chris is looking for it. I happen to think that Harris and Trump are Tweedledee and Tweedledum. Yeah, you know, Israel, Trump's words are more ferocious, but I'm sure she's in the same camp as President Biden is. I think we have to understand that our politics at this electoral level are rather superficial compared to the underlying deeper forces at play. You know, whenever there's

negotiations, it's the CIA, it's Mossad, it's the other intelligence services. These are the deeper forces at play that call the shots, tell the politicians what to do, advise them, so to speak, and so on. So we can't expect that an election turns the tide and changes everything. What we can expect, however, and what we should be insisting upon, is that the current course is completely deleterious of American interests and of the prospects for world peace and survival. And therefore, this deeper state apparatus needs to rethink fundamentally the path that we're on. Here's that montage that'll make you smile about how cuckoo the American government is.

Can Ukraine win? Yes. Putin has failed, and he continues to fail. Putin has already lost. Putin has already lost. Putin has already lost the war. Putin has already lost this war. I want to say that and I want to say it loudly. Putin has already lost in terms of what he was trying to achieve.

In many ways Putin has already lost. That is Russia has already lost this war. In short, Russia has lost. They've lost strategically, operationally, and tactically. We have not discussed Ukraine, but I just wanted to lift up your spirits that these crazy people. But, you know, Judge, it's just one small comment on this. They all use exactly the same words. Yes, isn't that interesting? Yes, they do.

Because they're all reading from literally a script. So this is just important for people to understand. This is a script. Not everyone in the world would have used the word unprovoked to describe the provoked special military operation by Russia, but that was the script. So when you see this, it's funny and the montage is good to let people know these people are not thinking, they are reading. That's all. They're not thinking, they're not arguing, they're reading. They're reading from a script. And it is these PR geniuses that write this script. It's laughable, it's absurd, it's contrary to the facts,

but it's everybody's script. Professor Sachs, thank you very much, my dear friend. I know the hour is very late where you are, but I deeply appreciate your insight, your brilliance, your articulation, and especially your passion. Great to be with you, and we'll see you next week, I hope. Thank you. Of course. Thank you, Jeff. All the best. Thanks a lot to be with you. And we'll see you next week, I hope. Thank you. Of course. Thank you, Jeff. All the best. Thanks a lot. Bye bye. Bye. Boy, passion is an understatement. Coming up tomorrow at three o'clock Eastern, Phil Giraldi. At four o'clock Eastern, Aaron Maté. Judge Napolitano for Judging Freedom. We'll see you next time. You can earn your degree on your schedule. You may even be able to graduate sooner than you think by demonstrating mastery of the material you know.

Make 2025 the year you focus on your future. Learn more at wgu.edu.