Judging Freedom - Prof. Jeffrey Sachs: Can Riyadh Bring Peace?

Episode Date: February 19, 2025

Prof. Jeffrey Sachs: Can Riyadh Bring Peace?See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Thank you. Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Wednesday, February 19th, 2025. My dear friend, Professor Jeffrey Sachs, will join us in just a moment on is he optimistic that the talks in Riyadh will bring us closer to peace. But first this. Did you know that American homeowners have over $32 trillion in equity and criminals are targeting it with a growing scam the FBI calls house stealing. Scammers can transfer your title out of your name using a one-page document they can file behind your back with the government. And the scariest part? You won't even find out about it until collection notices and foreclosure notices start arriving.

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Do it today. Go to HomeTitleLock.com, promo code JUDGE. Professor Sachs, welcome here, my friend. Thank you for allowing us to have this conversation. It's a pleasure and a professional delight. I think you know I feel that way. Not too long ago, you told us and other platforms you feared that the United States was moving the world closer to nuclear war. Do you still have that same fear today, Professor Sachs?

I think we've had the most consequential move towards, had indeed moved closer in the announcement at the end of January, based on the events weeks of the Trump administration is that we are likely seeing the end of the Ukraine war quite quickly now. We are seeing a normalization of relations with Russia quickly. We could, this is, I think, with much less clarity, but we could be seeing the end of the war in the Middle East as well. I want to highlight that's a much more speculative point. But the reason I say it is that Trump, even before he was president, essentially brokered a ceasefire, and that probably not seriously negotiate for a phase two, the war in Ukraine is going to end, because the US is going to end the war. The same thing would happen in Israel. If Trump says the war is over, then Netanyahu cannot fight this war. Both the Ukraine war and the war in Gaza essentially were backed by the United States, made possible by the United States, funded by the United States, armed by the United States. And if the United States says the war in Gaza is over, it's over. So it's not up to Netanyahu, just as the war in Ukraine is not up to Zelensky.

In both cases, the United States ultimately was the backer of these wars. According to research done by our friend and colleague Matt Ho, in the Trump administration, the United States continues to send either a ship or a huge cargo plane to Israel every 15 hours, filled with military equipment. And public sources are reporting that the United States shipped 1,800 MOABs, mother of all bombs. These are bigger than 2,000 pounds. They are so large and so heavy, the Israelis don't have a plane out of which or from which to bomb them. Are you really of the view that Trump will say to Netanyahu, enough is enough? Well, let me say that both with regard to Ukraine and with regard to Israel, what has been occurring in the United States for decades is an underlying consistent story. You could say a deep state strategy. In the case of Ukraine, it was a 30-year effort to expand the U.S. military to

Ukraine and to Georgia in the name of NATO enlargement. In the case of Israel, it has been essentially 30 years of backing Netanyahu's wars to prevent a Palestinian state. When it comes to Ukraine, it's pretty clear Trump is saying, well, this gambit is over. It failed. And he's not going to accept the losing hand. He's going to end this. When it comes to Israel, it's much less clear because the power of the Israeli lobby in the United States is very strong. And the question is, is Trump an independent person in this, or is the US government still in the hands of the Israel lobby? There's no doubt that the ongoing war in Gaza is not only deadly for the Palestinians, but terrible for U.S. foreign policy, U.S. interests, U.S. finance, U.S. diplomacy, U.S. role in the world, U.S. business environment, everything.

So the question is, who runs U.S. policy towards Israel and Palestine? Is it the Israel lobby or is it the United States pursuing its national interest? We don't know yet. And it could get worse because it's not only a continuation in Gaza that is at stake, there is a lot of speculation that either Israel using these bombs or Israel and the United States' interest and the Trump administration, which has other objectives. So to answer your question, we don't know. And I wouldn't presume to say yes or no to what's going to happen. What I do think is the case is that Trump and his negotiator, Steve Witkoff, negotiated a three-part ceasefire. That ceasefire, very fragile, continues in place.

That's Trump's ceasefire, very fragile, continues in place. That's Trump's ceasefire. If he defends his own handiwork, then the ceasefire will hold because it's in America's hands. It's in America's decision whether it supports Netanyahu or whether it enforces peace, just as is true in Ukraine. So this is a choice for Trump. My own advice would be keep the peace, save your administration, save your objectives, not only for the sake of the Palestinians and everything else, for Trump's administration. Because of course, if these wars continue, this is absolutely going to devastate American policy, just like it wrecked the Biden administration. Are you no longer of the view that the Israeli lobby has an iron grip on the United States Congress?

Look, a president of the United States that does his job can face down a foreign lobby. Can face down a lobby. That's the job. Because Adelson gave him $100 million. Do you expect him to tell her to go take a hike? I expect her to say, I expect the president of the United States to say, thank you very much for your contribution. And I'm making peace. And that peace is good for Israel, peace is good for Palestine,

peace is good for the United States, and I thank you for your support, Mrs. Adelson. What about a Palestinian? That's what a president should say. If he sold American foreign policy to her, we've got an extraordinarily serious problem. More serious than we feared. Where do you think Donald Trump comes down on the issue of a Palestinian state? I mean, here's somebody who said Israel will sell the United States Gaza. I mean, that is a mind-boggling, ignorant statement.

President Trump has never called for a Palestinian state, as far as I know. He has never enunciated support for the two-state solution. But my basic point that I have been making to American presidents and Congress and the public nonstop is there is no other path to peace, period. And so if Trump wants success, he will recognize that 95% of the world's population live in countries that vote for the two-state solution there's overwhelming overwhelming global near unanimity for the two-state solution the entire Arab League the 57 countries of the organization of Islamic Cooperation, the OIC, the African Union with its 55 countries where I was just at the African Union summit. Across the world, other than Israel, naturally, the United States, which has unconditionally backed Israel up until now.

Nauru. What is that? Nauru is the smallest country in the United Nations. It's got 12,000 people in it. It votes with the United States. Micronesia, which is similarly not quite as small as Nauru, but it is bound by treaty to vote with the United Nations. And a tiny handful of other countries vote against the two-state solution. So if President Trump gets informed about this, and he will be informed, I believe, by the most important interlocutor, the crown prince of Saudi Arabia.

This is extremely important. It's notable that the negotiations between Russia and the United States took place in Saudi Arabia. This is not accidental. Saudi Arabia is an extremely important country for the United Nations, and that is America's vote to stop vetoing a state of Palestine and rather vote for a state of Palestine in the UN Security Council. Let me just stop you here. How badly does Netanyahu want to normalize relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia? Because the Crown Prince has said several times that will not happen without the two-state solution, without a sovereign Palestine. Netanyahu, first and foremost, there's a fancy word we say lexicographically, which means unconditionally

the first thing is no Palestinian state. He would give up everything, including world peace, World War III, you name it, to try to prevent a state of Palestine. But the fact of the matter is it's not his call. It's America's call. Israel has no veto on a state of Palestine. That's a matter of international law, not a decision of Israel. And there's one veto of it in the world today. One. That is the United States government. All right. I want to read to you, because he put it on his Truth Social, this is transitioning to Ukraine and Zelensky, Professor Sachs, what the president said earlier today.

Think of it. A modestly successful comedian, Vladimir Zelensky, talked the United States of America into spending $350 billion to go into a war that couldn't be won, that never had to start, but a war that he, without the U.S. and Trump, will never be able to settle. The United States has spent $200 billion more than Europe, and Europe money is guaranteed while the United States will get nothing back. Why didn't sleepy Joe Biden demand equalization in that this war is far more important to Europe than it is to us. We have a big, beautiful ocean of separation. On top of this, Zelensky admits that half of the money we sent him

is, in caps and quotes, missing. He refuses to have elections, is very low in Ukrainian polls, and the only thing he was good at was playing Biden like a fiddle, a dictator without elections. Zelensky better move fast or he is not going to have a country left. In the meantime, we are successfully negotiating an end of the war with Russia, something that all admit only Trump and the Trump administration can do. Biden never tried. Europe has failed to bring peace, and Zelensky probably wants to keep the gravy train going. I love Ukraine, but Zelensky has done a terrible job. His country is shattered, and millions have unnecessarily died, and so it continues. Talk about a 180-degree change from a month ago when Joe Biden was still in office, Jeff.

Let's just say the war is coming to an end. This is all. The war depends on U.S. arms and financing and Ukrainians dying. So the war will come to an end. Ukraine will actually be saved by the war coming to an end. And all of the rest is Donald Trump messaging. But let's just say that he's bringing the war to an end. All right. It was very Trumpian, particularly with the caps in there. I didn't identify everything that was in caps, but every time I referred to himself, it was in all caps. But an interesting phrase, Zelensky is playing Biden like a fiddle.

Is Netanyahu playing Trump like a fiddle, Professor Sachs? The point is that for really back to Truman, but especially in the last 30 years, the United States has done what Israel says. That's true of every president in modern times. And the question is whether Trump will break free of that, whether he will understand that the success of his administration depends on it, and whether he will do what I call the job of an American president, which is to put a break on war. It's the main job of an American president. It hasn't happened for decades. Netanyahu has been the author of so many American wars, including, of course, the war in Iraq, the war in Syria, the war in Libya, as we've discussed, and as Dennis Fritz wrote about in Deadly Betrayal, and as many other historians have written about, Netanyahu and his American

counterparts plotted a series of wars to try to take out governments that were supporting opposition or supporting the Palestinians in opposition to Netanyahu's totalist demands. And the question is whether the Trump administration will change that. If Trump does change it, it will be the first time in decades. But he has done exactly that kind of change with Zelensky. Zelensky does not run American foreign policy, though it did seem so in the past four years because the United States president literally said that negotiations will take place when Ukraine wants them. Well, that was saying American foreign policy is determined by Ukraine. And the question is really direct. And I don't know the answer to it. We're going to find out. Is Trump an independent

president or is the Israel lobby in charge? I don't know. You know, Trump personally, he has a huge ego and views himself as independent. He's not pushed around or played by a, like a fiddle by anyone. Here he is back and forth. This is two days ago now. So this is before, before the statement that I just read to you. Trump making comments about Zelensky and Zelensky pushing back. It's interesting. I'll be anxious to hear your thoughts. And then I want to ask you about J.D. Vance in Munich, and then we'll finish. Chris, cut number 12. I think I have the power to end this war. And I think it's going very well.

But today I heard, oh, well, we weren't invited. Well, you've been there for three years. You should have ended it three years. You should have never started it. You could have made a deal. Unfortunately, President Trump, I have great respect for him as a leader of a nation that we have great respect for. The American people who always support us

unfortunately lives in this disinformation space. Well for a while Trump was living in the disinformation space when he was saying the Russians have lost a million, Putin has been a terrible president, all that nonsense. He's now 180, thanks be to God, 180 degrees from that. I wonder if he's getting better intel. Well, this issue is, again, to make the point, exactly what he faces in the case of Israel. If he is properly informed, he'll understand that Netanyahu led one president after another into disaster. And the question is, will he let himself be led into disaster by Netanyahu? I hope he's watching us now. We know he likes to watch you, Professor Sachs. We know from that clip of yours at the Cambridge Union that he ran. Switching gears and before we go,

what was your take on Vice President Vance's dressing down of European leaders in Munich? Helpful for the United States or hurtful? Well, I think it is a wake-up call for Europe. Europe blindly followed Biden. It followed the American deep state into disaster. Europe essentially gave up a foreign policy for what it deemed to be American protection. And what all of the events of the last couple of weeks have shown to Europe, and I am in Brussels today, I spoke at the European Parliament, in fact, to parliamentarians. It shows that Europe needs a coherent foreign policy, that times are different right now. Europe also is crying.

How do you have negotiations without us? But Europe should be the first to be having normal diplomacy with Russia. But it refused that very point. I made that point to Europe's top diplomats for years. They rejected the point because they blindly followed. You may be speaking to different people soon. The Germans are certainly going to change their government on Sunday. They're going to change their government, but it's not absolutely clear that they're going to understand the reality because they're way behind understanding what's

going on right now. But there are some who do recognize, boy, this is a different time. And they need to understand that just as President Trump and President Putin are in diplomacy, Europe needs to have diplomacy with Russia. It hasn't had any for years. It's the same story. So it has been because it basically mortgaged its foreign policy to the United States. And I think what J.D. Vance signaled for them was, you know, they're not aligned together. Without getting into the specifics, what's more important is that the Europeans said, whoa, we don't know what's going on. Well, I hope they figure out what's going on quickly, which is that you can't just have one region

that says, you do our foreign policy. You can't have the United States say to Ukraine, you do our foreign policy. You can't have the United States say to Israel, you do our foreign policy. You can't have Europe say to the United States, you do our foreign policy. It doesn't make sense. A terrific conversation, Professor Sachs, for which I thank you. I know it's the middle of the night where you are. You're always as sharp as a tack. And thank you for joining us. Thank you for your time. Thank you for letting me pick your brain. We need to have a meal together with Dr. Sachs, your other half, when you're back in New York. Absolutely. And I hope you'll come back and visit with us again next week. All the best. See you next week. Thanks a lot. Thank you. A brilliant and selfless person, if ever there

was one. Tomorrow, Thursday, Professor Gilbert Doctorow at eight in the morning, Max Blumenthal at one in the afternoon, Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson at two in the afternoon, and the worth waiting for Professor John Mearsheimer at three in the afternoon. Judge Napolitano for judging freedom. 🎵