Judging Freedom - Prof. Jeffrey Sachs: How to Save Israel and Palestine

Episode Date: October 26, 2023

#Israel #Gaza #War #Peace #Palestine Live from Rome, Italy where Professor Sachs will join Pope Francis' call for a World Day of Prayer for Peace to be held on October 27, 2023. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Thank you. Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Thursday, October 26th, 2023. It's almost October 27th, where Professor Jeffrey Sachs is at the moment in Rome, Italy. Professor Sachs, always a pleasure. I know how busy your schedule is, and you come to us literally from all parts of the globe. Thank you very much for returning to the show. Of course. Of course. Personal appreciation from me and the mass appreciation from our viewers. How provocative is the presence of an American aircraft carrier and 10 support ships in the eastern Mediterranean with 2,000 Marines aboard and another American aircraft carrier and 10 support ships in the Red Sea. Well, if this bombing and shelling and perhaps a real ground invasion of Gaza takes place,

of course, it's going to be completely inflammatory because the world's not calm right now. And every day that the pictures coming out of Gaza are as horrendous and tragic as they are, the emotions are running very, very high around the world, especially around the neighborhood of Israel and Palestine. And we know that the American troops are already under fire and there will be more of that. So this is an extraordinarily dangerous time. And what we need to be doing is working diplomatically to stop the fighting, not to let the fighting run its course. Do you know from your own sources, which are extraordinary, if we are attempting diplomatically to stop the fighting? Because if the answer to that is yes and yes, yes, you know, and yes, we are, one would think that the presence of American troops,

and we know that special ops have been on the ground and have taken fire, we don't know if there are injuries in Gaza, I would think would be contrary to the diplomatic efforts, if any, being made by the U.S. So let's back up. My question's too long. Are we engaged in diplomatic efforts to lessen the tensions, to dial back the Israeli response? Not that I know of, but I don't know. What I do know firsthand is how much diplomatic effort is underway by other governments, at least. I'm in Rome today, but I was in New York yesterday and I was around the UN and have been meeting with the ambassadors to the UN, and there is a tremendous amount of discussion underway, but I was not in discussion or even hearing about discussions about American diplomats, but rather other members of the UN Security Council and, more generally, other countries around the world, you know, one region after another, one country after another is making statements.

Basically, the statements are calling for an end a tremendous amount of misery and suffering going on. And it's very clear that it is against human standards and against international law. Concerned are you about Turkey, Iran, Lebanon, even Russia getting involved to tamp this down somehow? Well, I don't think that any of them would try to inflame this further. Iran is a particular case because of the ongoing absolute ill will between Iran and the United States, and of course, Iran-Israel and Iran's backing of Hamas. So Iran, I'll put in a separate category from the other countries that you mentioned. But for the others, I find it impossible to believe that Russia or Turkey or other countries in the neighborhood would want anything other than to get this under control rather than to explode. Of course, they're worried. They're worried that one way or another, one side is going to start shooting at the other side, inadvertently or

inadvertently. So there's a lot of fear that things can get out of hand. And of course, the United States and Russia effectively are at war in Ukraine. Not U.S. boots on the ground, but the U.S. doing everything but that, providing intelligence and weaponry to the fighting in Ukraine. So the tensions are already at a limit, and we don't want them to take another step beyond that. and special ops on the ground. What does he hope to accomplish by that? And does he not fear that that will cause an escalation? Perhaps even the ships are sitting ducks to these modern drones that all these countries have. You know, I'm not a military expert at all, so I can't say what their mission is. And certainly the president and his team have not told the American people clearly. But I think there is obviously as part of this a strong political message the president has at every moment um expressed his full and

essentially unlimited support for israel the israeli government has told us what it's going to do it is going to attack gaza and Hamas. And if civilians get in the way, which inevitably it's not just getting in the way, this is a civilian population of millions of people. Well, that's just how it's going to be is what we've been told. And this is an untenable approach. It's completely an untenable approach. It's a huge mistake by Israel, I'm afraid to say, because every day that this goes on, and I didn't see myself the pictures today because I was flying in the airplane and I have not caught up with the last hours of news. But every day that I do watch as the world watches what's happening, the tensions and demands for some kind of military or terrorist or other response by others will increase.

And so this can easily be the trigger to utter disaster. And President Biden's job, his job is to wind this down, not to play politics. And by playing politics, it may sound a little crass of me, but the normal U.S. political stance is to say complete 100% backing of Israel. That is the convenient political stance. Indeed, it's fair to say if President Biden says anything other than that, he will be attacked in the U.S. political scene, not by American public opinion, by the way, but by the political class in Washington. So he's taking the normal stance, let me say, but it's not the safe and prudent stance. Of course, we don't know all

that is happening behind the scenes, but from what I can gather, Israel is acting as if it does not face constraints either from the U.S., which is its backer and provider of weapons and armaments and military and financial capacity, nor does it properly understand world opinion, because the Israeli position as the normal stance is, we stand on our own, we don't need to abide by world opinion. And one can understand that kind of toughness, but I would also understand the precarious political state that Prime Minister Netanyahu is in or was in, I guess he still is in, was in before this attack, Hamas attack. But does not the government of Israel abide normal Judeo-Christian morality? Does not the government of Israel condemn the concept of collective punishment? Does not the government of Israel feel bound

by international legal standards to which they have subscribed in writing? I would guess that the answer is no right now to the way that they would view this situation. And what is being said is we have full intention and full rights to take whatever action is needed to root out and destroy Hamas. evident to anyone watching this that that is tantamount to the mass destruction of civilian populations in Gaza and perhaps also because of protests and uprisings, perhaps with more violence in the West Bank also. So their view is very explicit, which is, no, we don't have to abide by anything other than our definition of our self-defense. And they view the international community and the United Nations as overtly hostile. I think that this is absolutely wrong. The call by the Israeli foreign minister for the secretary general to resign for the need for a broader

political settlement of the underlying issues involved here. Israel's response to attack the secretary general is also standard for Israel the view that everybody is against us but that's okay we will do our thing it's predicated on the view that well ultimately the U.S has our back and ultimately we can defend ourselves. We're a nuclear power and so forth. Not that they're raising that, but the implication, the political class, especially this government, which is the most right-wing government in Israel's history, is we will do what we believe is necessary for our survival and public opinion is going to be hostile and we're going to ignore that. And this, I believe, is a grave mistake, a huge mistake

of Israel. I think it's always a mistake of any country to say we don't care what the rest of the world thinks. We know what's right. The U.S. has done that on many occasions and is doing that exactly now. And the consequences are usually awful because when the U.S. has faced opposition like Israel now faces in the international community. For example, when the U.S. faced heated opposition to the proposed attack on Saddam Hussein in 2003, and Security Council said this is a very bad idea, and the U.S. said, well, you're just against us. We're going to do what we need to do. It turned out we were getting sound advice from the others. We were actually being warned in a constructive way, what you are about to do will be very bad for you, the United States. And that wasn't by enemies. That was actually a straightforward warning. And what Israel is hearing right now

is also a straightforward warning that there are limits to what can be done. Even tough problems need to be addressed diplomatically. Even these horrendous crimes that Haas committed are not a license for massive killings of civilians. And that no matter what these horrific terrorist attacks were, there is an underlying political crisis that also needs to be resolved. And this is a very, very basic and important point for, I think, everyone to acknowledge. And it's the same in Ukraine, and it's the same in Israel, Palestine. And that is that the violence that we're seeing has underlying political causes that need to be addressed through diplomacy and that cannot be solved on the battlefield. And the United States has been very bad at picking up this basic point. And Israel is absolutely refusing to hear this point right now. After all, once again, we have a serious problem

in addition to all the other problems, which is that the government in place in Israel is dead set against the political solution that the rest of the world believes is necessary and that has been supported time and again by the United Nations. And that is for a Palestinian state living side by side with Israel. And the Israeli government, this one, simply cannot brook that. And that was true even before October 7. And it's true till this moment. And that means that Israel is on a path that is in a direct collision with the rest of the world, even with the United States policy in this regard. Here's President Biden on the twostate solution yesterday. Israelis and Palestinians equally deserve to live side by side in safety, dignity, and peace. There's no going back to the status quo as it stood on October the 6th.

That means ensuring Hamas can no longer terrorize Israel and use Palestinian civilians as human shields. It also means that when this crisis is over, there has to be a vision of what comes next. And in our view, it has to be a two-state solution. He said that to Prime Minister Netanyahu last week? I presume that he did, but we have not heard that from the Prime Minister of Israel

and we won't hear it from this prime minister. And what president Biden said is actually in line with the world opinion and is a key if the United States would choose to exercise diplomacy to ending this conflict. Because if this crisis is put in a political context with this end goal being the accepted end goal, it would be possible, in my opinion, to have unanimity of the world's nations putting aside Israel for the moment of Hamas as any kind of military threat, but in the context of moving to a political solution. So what President Biden said in that clip is constructive. But if the idea is, well, that's our view,

and now Israel is going to make a ground invasion of Gaza, it's not going to work, perhaps, the way that the U.S. leaders expect. It's certainly not going to work if that ground invasion has U.S. ground troops participating in it. Well, then we'll have World War III. This is absolutely true because if the U.S. is actively involved militarily, we will have an explosion in the Middle East, and that will not be contained to the Middle East because the Middle East has its own allies and global interests. And this is a region whose centrality in global affairs and in the world energy markets is

such that a conflict, a hot conflict involving U.S. troops on the ground, if it came to that, would not be contained easily, perhaps not at all to the region. As if to make this even more tenuous, here's President Erdogan of Turkey yesterday addressing the Turkish parliament in a rather strong and even bellicose way. You'll be amazed at some of the language. It's in Turkish, so I will read the subtitles so that everybody who's listening can hear it and understand it. Israel's attacks on Gaza, both in terms of those who carry them out and in terms of those who support them,

are a situation that signifies both murderousness and mental illness. We have no problem with the Israeli state, but I have never approved and will never approve of its cruelty in carrying this out. It's acting like an organization instead of a state. In this picture, the tears that Western powers shed for Israel

while turning a blind eye to the cruelty in Gaza is nothing but the biggest example of fraud. Hamas is not a terrorist organization, but a liberation group, a group of mujahideen that is fighting to protect its soil and its citizens. First of all, all sides need to take their hands off the trigger, and a ceasefire needs to be declared at once. Both Israel's attacks on Gaza and other areas need to stop, as well as the missiles fired on Israeli soil. Correct or indirect talks for the release of the hostages need to begin, and this issue needs to reach a conclusion rapidly. The Rafah border gate certainly needs to be kept open continuously for humanitarian aid.

For the war not to spread, all actors need to act responsibly, and forces outside the region need to stop carrying fuel to the fire under the guise of solidarity with Israel. I call on all other countries that have wisdom and a conscience to put pressure on Netanyahu's government for the Israeli state to return to common sense. I would like to remind of the need to not continue these developments with an understanding of the cross against the crescent.

Standing ovation. Well, you know... How do you unpack that? Let me try in the following way. If we focus not on some of the rhetoric around it, but on the specific action points that President Erdogan is calling for there. Just the action points. Take the hands off the, or take the fingers off the trigger, back off, cease fire, stop the attacks on Israel, stop the attacks on Gaza, let humanitarian relief in. This is something that I believe would have the assent of nearly every country in the world. And as a practical matter, that to my mind is an extremely important point. Because rhetoric is one thing. Rhetoric can also be calmed by direct diplomacy. This is why talking with each other is so important.

The actions, if they can be agreed as a practical matter, can stop the spiral into disaster. And what President Erdogan was calling for in practical terms, to my mind, is right. Now, there are many other things that need to be discussed around that. But I was speaking with many members of the UN Security Council in recent days, and I would say that that is by far the dominant opinion. And the United States opposed essentially resolutions to that effect in recent days. They said, and this is inexplicable to me, that a ceasefire is just a benefit for Hamas. This is false. And this is a wrong thinking.

But it is a thinking that has very, very little support around the world. The view that has support around the world is the practical part of what President Erdogan said. Stop the fighting. Stop the attacks on Israel. Stop the attacks on Gaza. Allow humanitarian relief. Then there's a then, then, then, and then. And to my mind, the first then is to protect Israel from further attack, to disarm Hamas, and to move to a political settlement. And I believe that all of those are possible. And by political settlement, I mean what President Biden said, which is a two-state solution, long promised, long committed by the UN Security Council and by the United Nations General

Assembly, long delayed, in my opinion, by profoundly flawed and sometimes deliberately undermined negotiations, if we could call them that, which haven't taken place for many years. But I think there is a path out of this. And the path out of this actually is through global diplomacy. And I keep believing, and I don't think I'm naive in this, that if the United States follows through tactically on the strategic idea that we heard President Biden say in that clip, which is to move to a political settlement, and if it agrees with other countries, there's no great power divide on this. This is not a China versus US issue or a Russia versus US. Now that's extraordinary because most issues are, but this one actually is not. This one, it is absolutely possible to get a 15 to nothing vote

in the UN Security Council for the steps needed to prevent this from spiraling to a regional and perhaps global war. You're in Rome, so use a Latin phrase. This is Israel contra mundum. This is Israel against the world. The whole rest of the world would want that two-state solution. Well, tomorrow there will be a prayer vigil in St. Peter's Square, which I will attend, 6 p.m. on Friday that Pope Francis has called for. And I believe that it reflects the spirit of the whole world to pray for peace. And now the job of diplomats is to act for peace. And now that the job of diplomats is to act for peace. The job of an American president, I learned a long time ago, and I've been saying it for decades,

is to put the foot on the brake on war, because the war machines are always revving. And President Biden needs to understand that his job right now is not domestic politics. His job right now is to stop this from spreading to disaster. That's his job description. And if he doesn't understand that this could turn into world war, God help us, because he needs to understand this. This is no joke. This isn't just mild provocations. This is a world on edge right now. And we had one flurry of bullets that started World War I, and at that time, there weren't instant camera feeds being seen around the world to inflame the situation, but it was still enough that the assassination of the Archduke of the Habsburg Empire and his wife was enough to trigger an avalanche of disaster. And we're in that situation right now. And the president of the United States, he said properly what he said yesterday about the political environment. And so kudos for that. Get in there and have diplomacy with China, which has called for a peaceful resolution. Have diplomacy with Russia, which gave a very responsible Security Council resolution for a ceasefire and for pulling back from the brink. Listen to President Erdogan, not the way you might want to, as in inflammatory rhetoric, but actually what he said about what to do right now.

I mean, when I say you, I mean what is the United States. And President Erdogan, by the way, is giving very, very good advice on that. And my discussions with the diplomats around the world in the last two days is that this would give a worldwide assent. Israel might not want to hear it, but this would be good advice to a country that is grieving and feeling profoundly at threat, what the world would say is, you don't have to fear for your survival, but you have to back off from doing something incredibly destructive and self-destructive. And this is what Israel needs to hear and what Israel needs to be told. Professor Jeffrey Sachs, thank you very much. My dear friend, thank you for coming on with us

at what is a very, very late hour for you. You woke up this morning in New York. You're going to bed tonight in Rome. Very much appreciated. We'll see you when you get back to the States. Wonderful. We'll do that. Talk to you soon. Thank you.

Scott Ritter at 4.30 Eastern this afternoon, coming up, Judge Napolitano for Judging Freedom. Thank you.