Judging Freedom - Ray McGovern: Are US and Russia at War with Each Other?

Episode Date: April 21, 2025

Ray McGovern: Are US and Russia at War with Each Other?See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

you Hi everyone, Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Monday, April 21st, 2025. Ray McGovern will be here with us in just a moment. But first this. While the markets are giving us whiplash, have you seen the price of gold? It's soaring. In the past 12 months,

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Call 800-511-4620, 800-511-4620, or go to learjudgenap.com and tell them your friend the judge sent you. Ray McGovern, welcome here, my dear friend. Before we talk about the United States and Russia at war with each other. And before I ask you of the geopolitical significance, if any, of the passing of Pope Francis, I want to run a clip of you making a beautiful and impassioned plea to the Pope not too long ago. Chris, cut number seven. I remember quite well when you came and spoke before our Congress in the United States in Washington D.C. and made an eloquent speech at the end of which you pointed out what you call the real problem.

And what you call the real problem was the blood-drenched arms trade. People are making millions, even billions, on this war. People appropriating the money in the U.S. Congress before which you spoke are in receipt of proceeds from the sale of these weapons, and this has to stop. I'm going to guess that the Pope did not respond to you directly, and I'm going to guess that if he heard what you said, he understood it. But back to my original question, what if any is the geopolitical significance of Francis' passing, right? is the geopolitical significance of Francis's passing, Ray? Well, just to finish up on that little one minute

announcement on the largest religious network in the world, it was the Catholic ETWN. And I suggested specifically, I like to be specific, that the Pope send an emissary, just as John Paul II did right before the attack on Iraq. What the Pope did was send Pio Lagi, a Cardinal who played tennis with George W. Bush, was a really great friend of the family, introduced him. The Pope did by saying, you know this fellow, now please listen to him. Now, we know from the letter, I went into conversation later that what Bush said, Laura, I'll listen to you a little bit.

Then you listen to me. We got to do this. Well, what happened? Lodgy was turned down and what'd he do? He didn't say anything for seven months. Okay. So what I was suggesting to this pope is look, you need to do that again on your crane. You ought to get the straight story and you ought to send an emissary.

Now, with respect to the geopolitical consequences of Francis's death, this is a very brief conversation, Judge. There aren't any. Church has long since lost its moral standing, its ability to stand out, to speak out for justice. This happened in Salvador, it happened in South America with the liberation theology, the people who wanted to follow Jesus who sticked them on justice. And so no matter what kind of pious statements come out of the Vatican, I'm an Archbishop Romero fan.

I just want to sort of quote what he said very poignantly one time. A church that doesn't provoke any crisis, a gospel that doesn't unsettle, a word of God that doesn't get under anyone's skin, a word of God that doesn't touch the real sin in the society in which it is being proclaimed, what kind of gospel is that? You and I judge no Bishop Gumbelton who died last year. He was a fighter for justice. When he went to Iraq, as he did several times, he came

back and spoke. I arranged him to speak at the servant leadership school in Washington, of which I was co-director at the time. The year was 2002. We had started a series called The Things That Make for Peace and Bishop Tom Gumbelton was our first speaker. This is a little vignette, bear with me. After he got finished talking about his success in persuading the other bishops, unusually, unanimously, to condemn what

was going on with respect to the sanctions against Iraqi children, unconscionable was the word they used. One of the Protestant ladies in our congregation said, now Bishop Govleton, what reaction did you get from the White House? And Tom kind of gulped and he said, well, this is the situation. There are 70 million Catholics. Now, if the bishops went back to their dioceses and told the pastors, you will preach this from the pulpit, we could make a difference. Right now, the White House just looks at us as 270 possible votes. They didn't go back and they didn't preach it. And that's where we are today. The word of god

is not preached and whether Francis lives or dies and of course, he just died. Uh I don't see anyone but the people like Berrigan the people like people like Bishop Tutu of uh I heard Bishop Gumbleton give one of his very moving and emotional talks at St. Joe's in the village. St. Joe's is the oldest Catholic church in New York City. It was built during the presidency of Andrew Jackson and has always been a center for the social justice teachings

of the church. Pope Francis did say something the other day, February 25th, Pope Francis has been out, this is according to NPR. This was not on the front page of the New York Times. It was not on Fox News. It was not on any of the legacy media. We missed it. Anyway, Pope Francis has been outspoken

in his criticism of the Israel's military campaign in Gaza. Last month, referring to January of this year, last month he described the humanitarian situation there as shameful. and he said there should be an investigation into whether Israel's sanctions in Gaza constitute genocide. This is from NPR on February 19th, 2025. He should have gone to Gaza and said, stop! he not know that the UN has already investigated whether or not there's been genocide and has indicted Netanyahu? Correct. I mean, call for an investigation about whether there is genocide is shockingly naive and ignorant of what's going

is in operation and I will not hesitate to be critical of him. He did not use his moral voice effectively for peace. Yeah, and Jeff, this is not the first. I read the New York Times today. I mean, the guy is a real mensch. I mean, he was very, very nice pope. But like you say, he could have done more. Here's an example from the past. Now we have Tutu saying that to remain neutral in times like these is to be on the side of the oppressor. And Pius XII was neutral during the first Holocaust, I mean the one in Germany.

Here's what Camus, Albert Camus said when some Dominicans invited him to their monastery and said, would you please tell us as an outsider, as an atheist, what you think of how the church acted during the Holocaust and during World War II. This is what he said, quote, for a long time during those frightful years, I waited for a voice to speak in Rome. Me? An atheist? Yes, a voice from Rome. What the world expects of Christians is that Christians should speak out loud and clear and that they should voice their condemnation in such a way that never a doubt, never the slightest doubt, could arise in the heart of the simplest

person. That Christians should get away from abstraction and confront the blood-stained face history has taken on today. That was 1947. It's not very different today and we have a Vatican that is not able, not that willing to speak as Romero called it to speak out and for justice for these poor people Many of whom of course are Christians, but that doesn't matter that human beings for God's sake genocide again Silence in the Vatican. Yeah all right back to the US and

and Russia, I mean, there's this crazy congressman from Pennsylvania, never heard of this guy before. His name is Fitzpatrick, who went over to Ukraine and fired American weaponry into Russia. It was my profound honor, I'm now quoting him, to deliver a very personal message to Vladimir Putin from the front lines of the war near the Russian border on behalf of our PA-1, that's 1st Congressional District in Pennsylvania community. share are that the message was delivered on target. Hashtag peace through strength. Now the first congressional district in Pennsylvania, which this representative Fitzpatrick represents, has of course the military industrial complex in it, no surprise. No surprise at all. He apparently signed one of the artillery shells to Vladimir. That's the reference to a personal message. You can see, if you can read clearly on the screen where we have superimposed the red arrow, that's where he has signed the projectile. We are not permitted to show him pulling the trigger that dispatched it, but I can tell

you that I have seen it. And if you Google this, you can, you can of course find it. Question, does the deep state want the war to continue whether Donald Trump wants it to continue or not? Well, first Fitzpatrick, what a guy, huh? What a guy. He's a disgrace to your landsman. There are plenty of Italian disgraces too, but on this day after Easter, this guy is a disgrace. Yeah. So let's see. Now, he's from that district.

And of course, the real sad story is that goes over big in that district. I mean, that's because these people, not evil, they just don't know what's going on, Judge. Now, we're making a dent in that, but it's a long process. So I mean, in a way, it's a venial sin for him, not a mortal sin. He doesn't know any better, right?

So the question you asked was, yeah, does the deep state, well, of course it does. I mean, hey, filthy looker, the military industrial complex about which I spoke in that brief message to Pope Francis is making it fast and loose and get lots of money and everybody has stocked in it. Up until recently,

at least, is doing a killing. Gold as well as well as you know. So yeah, a filthy looker. And then there's the power that goes with exerting your will throughout the world. What people don't realize is that's pretty much over. Our fiscal situation is precarious and you know we're up against formidable formidable opponents now with Russia and China joined at the hip two against one and that's just part of it. Here's uh Secretary Rubio, now this is on Friday, Good Friday, uh restating what he said a few days before. Apparently when he said a few days before, you only got a week left, President Zelensky. Nobody believed him. He went back, checked it with President Trump.

Trump must have said, say it again. We're gonna show, also show Trump confirming Secretary Rubio's statement. But here is Secretary Rubio on Good Friday. Chris, cut number one. We're not gonna continue to fly all over the world and do meeting after meeting after meeting if no progress is being made. So if they're serious about peace, either side or both, we want to help.

If it's not going to happen, then we're just going to move on. We're going to move on to other topics that are equally if not more important in some ways to the United States. I think from the US perspective, we spent three years, billions of dollars, supporting the Ukrainian side. But now we've reached the point where we have other things we have to focus on. We're prepared to be engaged in this as long as it takes, but not indefinitely, not without progress. If this is not possible, we're going to need to move on. I think the president feels strongly that we've dedicated a tremendous, we've done more in 80 days than Biden ever did to bring this war to an end.

I guess they are serious and they're going to give Zelensky what? Some sort of a drop dead date. I mean one wonders why he hasn't turned off that spigot yet. He's been in the White House for almost 100 days and it's still flowing, but this seems the reason why he hasn't turned I'm not quite ready yet to do that. Also the fact that they're running out of money and arms anyway, so why make a big deal out of it? Well, you know, it's really hard to tell. I'll say it again, Trump is by nature unpredictable. So is Rubio, sometimes Rubio doesn't seem to know

what his instructions really are. That's why we went back and checked. So they're putting the pressure on. The pressure is being put on Ukraine, not Russia. And that's the new phenomenon here. I see a degree of trust between Putin and Trump personally that has not existed for decades and decades. And I've been around for decades and decades.

They're even saying it. Here is Putin going out on a limb saying, this guy is sincere, this Trump. He can be trusted. Trusted, my God, after all those betrayals that they suffered over Ukraine at the hands of the Biden and other regimes. So yeah, I see hope here. I don't know how it's going to but US is gonna be out of there because well One party is recalcitrant and refusing to budget and that happens to be Kiev and Zelensky unless he changes his tune

He's gonna go with those Europeans that have this grandiose idea that they're still important That's not gonna have a that's what the Chinese call would have a no, a no good end, right? Talk to me about Intel. If Trump says shut it down, are there rogue Intel agents who will continue to provide information to Ukrainian and rogue American Intel agents who will continue to provide Intel to their Ukrainian counterparts? There will be MI6. There will be British agents which will do it either spontaneously or under direction from their government. I wish I could tell you there would be no rogue US elements, but I can't tell you that. It all depends on Tulsi Gabbard and whether she can rein in all these people who like to overthrow governments and supply arms to people like the neo-Nazis in Ukraine. It remains to be seen, but there is a hopeful sign now Tulsi Gabbard reiterated that you run that you run is not working on a nuclear weapon So, you know, that's really a straw man to say my mustahes Larry Larry Johnson said on Friday

It's like saying McGovern used to have Beth to stop driving that Lamborghini I don't have a Lamborghini and Iran doesn't have a nuclear weapons program. So it all depends really on whether she can continue to make an impact here and to warn the president, look, you don't want to get in a war with Iran. Don't let Bibi mousetrap you. Here's President Trump also on Good Friday, more or less, more than less, confirming Secretary Rubio's statement. Chris, cut number two. Secretary Rubio said that the U.S. will have to figure out whether a deal can be done between

Russia and Ukraine in a matter of days or you will just move on. Yeah, very short. How many days is that? No specific number of days, but quickly, we want to get it done. For some reason, one of the two parties makes it very difficult. We're just going to say, You're foolish, you're fools, you're horrible people,

and we're going to just take a pass. But hopefully, we won't have to do that. What do you say? And Marco is right in saying is right in saying we want to see it end. And yet, Ray, he still listens apparently to General Kellogg, who has come out with some of the most absurd suggestions imaginable. I saw one of Secretary Rubio's meetings at a large table, I think he was opposite the French Foreign Minister. On his right was Mr. Witkoff, who's not an official of the government, has not been confirmed by the Senate, but has the presidency. On Marco Rubio's left was General Kellogg. What the heck was he doing there? Kellogg

wants NATO in Ukraine. If anything's a non-starter, how could he possibly be ignorant of the cause of this war? Well, he's sold by the British and the French and to a degree the Germans that we've got to keep doing this, okay? Now, whether he thinks that Trump supports him or not doesn't matter. He's still in what Kellogg thinks is the right thing to do, right? And it's really mischievous because unless you accept that Trump is very mercurial, and he doesn't often give directions very specifically and accurately to his folks, well, you're totally confused. Now look to Witkoff, look to Trump. They're the ones that are the deciders here.

They're the ones that keep talking. Even this week, there's another meeting in London this week. So we'll have to see how this all shakes out. But Trump really wants to get this thing done. The good news is, so does Pucci. And I think there's a way they can work. I hope they'll make some sort of framework announcement before the big celebration marking the 80th anniversary of victory in Europe in 1945. That's in May, May 8th, May 9th. That'll be a really nice

occasion to say, look, we've got a new framework here which takes into account the concerns, the core interests, not only of Western Europe, but also of Russia. If I had President Trump's ear, I would be lobbying him to make a surprise appearance in the Kremlin on May 9th and then to grab President Putin and say, I'm staying for a week or however long it takes for us to negotiate a grand reset. Just do it, Mr. President. Don't wait for Kellogg or Witkoff or Rubio. Just do it. I would counsel the same way, Judge, but I think I would expect from Putin, all right look I have these generals, I have these admirals and I have these hardliners behind me. They're so much

aware of how many times you guys betrayed us starting back in the year 1990 when you promised not to spare NATO. So look, give me something. Give me something I can put my teeth into that I can announce as a measure of goodwill on your part. Then come on, we'll talk with her. She's coming too. So we can have a real party here and we can announce something approaching Yalta

way back in 1945. Before we go, headlines in today's New York Times, large print, defense head said to send war plan to second group. The New York Times has three sources saying that Pete Hegseth again used a non-secure signal group, one that included his wife, his brother, and his lawyer, none of whom have security clearance as I understand it, to discuss plans to kill people

in Yemen. What's going on here? Well, Hegseth is either invincibly ignorant or just these doesn't give a rat's patootie. One would expect that from him. Now, let me just say one thing, Judge. You showed a photo of him that shows that he is in violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Look at that little hanky in his pocket. It's against regulations. They use the American flag as a decorative symbol, especially in your little pocket there. So, Hexeth is from Hungary. He does the first thing about defense, and I would hope that Trump will think better of having nominated him against some other Dick Tracy square drawer guy that looks really good to try hmm. To try to grab a whole other.

You are very charitable. Colonel McGregor looked at this and said, you nominate a clown, you get a circus. This is the White House saying recently fired leakers are continuing to misrepresent the truth, to soothe their shattered egos and undermine the president's agenda. the recently fired leakers are continuing to misrepresent the truth to sue their shattered egos and undermine the president's agenda. But the administration will continue to hold them accountable. This is White House Deputy Press Secretary, Anna Kelly. I don't know her, but this is the statement she made.

They don't deny, at least not directly, that Hegseth did this. They just say, don't listen to these people we fired, they're disgruntled. We know how to fire and we're going to do it, right? Right. Leaks are not to be tolerated unless we do them. I mean, it's the old game, George. You know, well, thank you very much. Particularly your beautiful

comments about the pope and the church as well as your usual insight about Intel and war all the best. Uh we'll see at the end of the uh at the end of the week for the intelligence community roundtable with our front Larry Johnson. Thanks

Church. Thank you, Ray. and Larry Johnson of course is coming up right here at 1130 this morning, and then at three this afternoon on all of this, Scott Ritter. And at four o'clock this afternoon from Rome, from a grieving Rome, Professor Jeffrey Sachs, Judge in the Palletano for Judging Freedom. MUSIC