Judging Freedom - Ray McGovern: Is the US Indispensable?

Episode Date: October 30, 2023

Chinese and US warships cross paths.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Thank you. Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Monday, October 30th, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Monday, October 30th, 2023. Our apologies for the technical glitches, which have delayed the start of this interview, but we have overcome them. Ray McGovern is our guest today, as usual, at this time of day on a Monday, as well as, of course, with Larry Johnson on Friday. Ray, always a pleasure. Welcome here. You and Larry and the other guests and I have argued that the war in Ukraine has burst the myth of NATO and Western invincibility. You and Larry and the others and I have argued that the events of October 7 in Israel have burst the myth of Israeli invincibility. What has all of this done to the myth of American invincibility, indispensability, if you will,

around the world? Judge, it's made a very, very small dent in it. And the proof is in the pudding. A very important meeting took place Thursday, Friday, Saturday, when the Chinese foreign minister, who was also a member of the ruling Politburo, visited Washington. will come to San Francisco for that Asian summit, and no indication even that military communication ties have been restored between China and the U.S. Instead, just a lot of rhetoric, the Chinese very bitter about this, Chinese warning that they will not tolerate this kind of thing unless, as they put it, unless Biden changes his mind and starts being reasonable. So probably Xi is not going to come to San Francisco, and probably the lack of military ties will persist. Now we have the Russian defense minister in Beijing, as we speak, talking together with the Chinese defense minister, they're talking about their joint efforts to tamp down hostilities in Ukraine and in the Middle East. Who represents the United States?

The country director for China and the Defense Department. That's telling in and of itself. Somebody of that low rank can't have much impact on what these key leaders think. We'll get back to Israel in a minute. Is the United States being intentionally provocative militarily toward the Chinese? And if so, I think you're going to say yes, because we have a tape of this. Why? Well, Judge, we talked on Friday about that Chinese fighter that came within 10 feet of a B-52 bomber in the South China Sea. Now, what's a B-52 bomber doing in the South China Sea? These are not reconnaissance aircraft. They're obviously

provocative. And I dare say if there was a Chinese incident of that kind near Hawaii or the continental United States, there would be just as fierce a reaction. Now, what we know is that these provocations have been going on for many months. And, you know, I'm not quoting the Chinese. In August, there was an incredibly close encounter of the very close kind between a U.S. ship and a Chinese ship in the South China Sea. And here we go, Ray. Here's a video of that, I think. The one on the left is the American, is the Chinese. The one on the right is the American, almost aiming for the bow, certainly crossing in front of it. No? That's quite correct. Now,

this is a Ministry of Defense video from the Chinese. Nobody has taken any issue with it. It's, you know, pictures don't lie. It came very close to cutting off the Chinese ship. Chinese ship was going straight. Now, that's what happened in August. The Chinese remonstrated, but the U.S. said, no, freedom of navigation, we can do what we want. So the point here is that any one of these incidents could cause a real clash. And if

there's a real clash, the Chinese are prepared for it. They're saying, look, if we clash in the air or on the sea, we're ready for that. What are you going to do six, seven, 8,000 miles away? It's very dangerous. Let me ask you this. Who would have made the decision for the U.S. warship to do that? The chief of naval operations, that's the head admiral, the secretary of defense, the president of the United States. I mean, this is so provocative. What level of authority can authorize this and what would have motivated it? Well, this is routine procedure. In other words, it's SOP, Standard Operating Procedure for U.S. warships and U.S. aircraft to patrol very close to the Chinese mainland. Now, why they do that? Well, they say it's to assert freedom of navigation and freedom of airspace. But I dare say, you know, if you're

the Chinese doing that in the Caribbean or the Russians, it's a provocative step. but the Navy can do it. The Navy says we will do it, and it's a long-standing procedure. The B-52s, I've tried to check on that. I'm not sure how often B-52s fly that close, because after all, B-52s are nuclear capable. They're also capable of firing cruise missiles and so forth. They're not reconnaissance aircraft. So yeah, these are deliberate provocations. They set off Chinese radar, but that's just a minor technical advantage. The real thing is to show who rules the South China Sea. And we're reluctant to admit that we can't really rule that anymore all by ourselves. Tell me about intel capabilities on the Russian foreign minister and Chinese foreign minister communicating. Do we know what they're saying in real time from surveillance, or do we surmise what they're talking about?

What the Chinese and the Russian defense ministers are saying? Yes. Well, they're saying at an open forum just today, Reuters just reported that the Chinese are saying our relations with Russia have never been closer. We will face provocations together. And Shoigu, the Russian defense minister, has referred to the nuclear option very, very obliquely and not saying anything new. But every time he says, you know, risking war with a nuclear capable country like us doesn't make any sense. There's some indication that Reuters still hopes that Xi Jinping will go to San Francisco. I say forget about that. And Reuters also says, you know, they're trying to set up military communications between China and the United States. They're hopeful of that. Well, that's already been

shot down as a result of Wang Yi, the foreign minister's visit to Washington late last week. Okay, but I want you to tell me about the technical surveillance capabilities. If the two of them talk in private, do we know what they're saying? I am almost certain that we do not. However, the technical capabilities that exist today are such that I can't be sure of that. The main point, judges, we don't have to know what they're saying in private. They're saying it all in public. And the whole contour of the world correlation of forces has changed to the disadvantage of the United States, which has gotten a short stick of this isosceles triangle that I refer to now and then.

We're going to take a break for an ad. And when we come back, Ray and I will talk about what's going on in Israel and in Turkey and how dangerous is the Israeli invasion of Gaza. But first this. Hi everyone, Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Lear Capital. You all know that I am a paid spokesperson for Lear Capital because it's the right thing to do because the government is regulating too much and printing too much money and reducing the value of everything you earn and everything you own. And the best hedge against this is gold and silver. That's what I've done. I know the folks at Lear. I trust the folks at Lear.

I've worked with the folks at Lear. And I use their advice when it comes to my investing in gold and silver. You should do the same. Call them at 800-511-4620 or go to learjudgenap.com. You'll have a very nice conversation with a very knowledgeable person who will send you literature to read, which you can review with your spouse and your financial advisor. And then you can call them back and decide what you want to do. Why Lear? Lear has 25 years experience and thousands of five-star reviews and a 24-hour risk-free guarantee.

And when you have this conversation with the Lear representative, you'll find out if you can qualify for a $15,000 gold bonus. So call Lear now, 800-511-4620 or learjudgenap.com. Does the United States have a military base in Israel, which is generally not known to the public? I'm sure they have certain collection facilities, intelligence collection facilities. They probably have a way of directing drones if other drone direction facilities fall short. But there's no need for an American base in Israel. People have referred to Israel as the biggest American base, the floating, the base here in the Near East. Israel supplied by us doing our, well, we doing Israel's bidding, let's get that straight. And besides, Judge, we have so many bases in that area, it would be not only foolish but provocative of our neighbors and Iran to actually put an overt U.S. military base in Israel at this point.

As asleep at the switch as Mossad was on October 7th was the CIA in the Middle East asleep at the switch. It seems so, Judge. I can't be sure. But yeah, we depend so much on this invincible and all-knowing Mossad that it would be a real surprise to me if we knew more than the Israelis knew. How dangerous to world peace is the Israeli invasion of Gaza and the perception that the United States supports it? Well, it's more than perception.

We have the Zionist president, proud to call himself a Zionist, that the Israeli military prevail, end quote. That was nine days ago, Sunday, Face the Nation, look it up. So we're joined at the hip, it's not a perception. Question is, how will the Arabs, how will Turkey, how will Iran react? Now, I've been on Iranian TV, press TV twice, and I tell the truth there, of course, but I also sort of kind of guide my remarks not to be inflammatory. And I say, look, don't take the bait. There's sitting ducks out there. Yes, these ships in the Eastern Med and in the Persian Gulf don't take the bait. The Arabs and Iran have weapons that they don't need to be kinetic. They have oil, they have gas, they have all manner of ways to solve this thing. Unfortunately, they can't do that right away. But if they make clear that they're going to stand up this time beyond the rhetoric, such as Erdogan had over the weekend, beyond the rhetoric, then, you know, the U.S.

and Israel are going to really get hurt, and so will Europe. So I see some hope that given the so far restraint by Iran and Turkey, they don't want to get in a war with the United States. They can achieve their aims in supporting the Palestinians in a non-kinetic way. And I think that's what they have chosen so far. I hope they continue to do that because I have, as I have warned them, there are people in Washington who would just love to see us involved in a war with Iran and even in a war with Russia. My God. But that's the reality. Here's a cut. Number five, Chris. Here's Jake Sullivan yesterday. I understand this is another country's decisions here, but the U.S. gives more than $3 billion a year in aid to Israel.

Some of those weapons being used in Gaza are purchased or help to be purchased with U.S. taxpayer funds. So whether it's intended or not to some of the world, it looks like the U.S. is endorsing all of what Israel is doing here. Are you at all asking the military to be more limited in its tactics or more strategic? The United States of America, when we transfer weapons to another country, whether it's Israel or anyone else, requests, requires an assurance that those weapons will be used in accordance with the law of armed conflict. And we seek accountability to ensure that that is the case. We will continue to do that. Credible or hogwash? That's BS. It's BS. It's never been the case.

It wasn't the case during Iran-Contra. It wasn't the case when Turkey invaded Cyprus. It's never been the case with Israel. Israel does what it wants. And is an enormous, enormous rally. I can't even tell you the numbers, but well in excess of 150,000 people. And he's quite incendiary. There are English subtitles, but I will read them aloud for the benefit of our friends who are listening to the show on audio only.

Hey, Israel, how did you come here? How did you enter here? You are an occupier. You are an organization. The Turkish people know this. Israel, we will declare you as a war criminal to the world. What is being done in Gaza is not defense, but an open and despicable massacre.

This determined and faithful stance exhibited by Gazans will be written in history as a glorious epic of resistance. Is this likely to lead to something more than just rhetoric? You can't rule it out, Judge, but Erdogan is seizing the moment. He wants to be the leader of the Islamic world. You know, back in 2010, when Israel raided the Turkish ship Mavi Mamara, killing Turkish citizens and one U.S. citizen, he ranted and raved that his Erewhon did.

Ah, this would be terrible. And guess what? Economic considerations prevailed. And there are still very, very powerful economic considerations having to do with gas, oil, and other things in the relationship between Turkey and Israel. I don't think he's going to squander that right away. It'll depend on what Iran and Turkey and the Arab countries around Israel decide to do. And I hope that they're able to push for a ceasefire strongly, but put off being provoked by things like strikes on U.S. forces in Syria and in Iraq, residual forces. It's another question as to what the hell they're doing there.

That's what I was going to ask you. What are they doing there? Congress hasn't authorized it. Congress hasn't declared war. We all know they're there. The president hasn't even stated a reason for it. Well, Trump stated a reason. He said we're in Syria to seize the oil. That's why we're up there. That's where all the oil is. That's what Trump said, if I got to say. To steal the oil.

What's that? To steal the oil. That's what he said, to steal the oil. Sorry about that. Okay, as far as Iraq is concerned, well, you know what happened in Iraq, was it 20 years ago? I mean, the Iraqis invited us out about five years ago. And we said, well, you know what, prefer to stay, prefer to have maybe 2,000 troops there to defend you and defend the Arab. Well, give me a break. They're there

in sort of a wink and a nod, and they don't need to be there, for God's sake. Are they there to provoke Iran? Well, there's every indication that people would like to have Iran provoked by saying that these dissident groups that are taking shots at these U.S. bases are directed or are ruled or controlled by Iran. The evidence to that is very flimsy. They're supported by Iran in a general sense. But whether Iran is saying, yeah, you attack this U.S. base in northern Syria or in eastern Syria, you attack this base here and there

in Iraq. I doubt that's the case. They have their own weapons. They do their own thing. How good is American intel in that part of the world? Stated differently, can American intel know in advance when an attack is coming from a militia, whether Iranian-funded, ordered, backed, or not? The chances are it can, but Judge, U.S. intelligence is so heavily dependent on Israeli intelligence that it's a real open question as to how good we are when we look at those things. Now, witness the fact, witness what happened on October the 7th. So to the degree this reliance is so dependent, not only on policy, but on intelligence sharing, we do ourselves injustice by depending so heavily on our Israeli, you know, I'm about to use the word that's not true,

allies. Israel is not our ally. To be an ally, you need a mutual defense treaty. There is none between Israel and the United States. What is the relationship between Israel and the United States? I mean, Iran is a vassal state. We pay for their government. We pay for their military. They do what we tell them to do. We give Israel billions, but what is our legal relationship with Israel? It's a relationship of values

underscored by $3.8 billion in arms aid to Israel. So it's a function of history, really. When you look at the Israeli conquering the occupied territories, it goes back to 1967 when the Israelis attacked Egypt and Syria and acknowledged several years later that they were not threatened by Egypt or Syria. They just wanted to have Lebensraum, more territory. And at that point, Judge had a resolution, Security Council Resolution 242, Israel must withdraw from the occupied territories. 1967, November 22nd. look at that, okay?

What happened? They've thumbed their nose at that. That's the history of this, and that's what the residue is coming to view now. We all have the perception that Israel has gone to the head of the line with respect to the focus of American diplomacy, the focus of American interest, and the focus of American cash and military equipment. Here's Vice President Harris last night on 60 Minutes trying to, well, or trying to, she says it with one sentence, contradict that. Most Americans say that they don't think you're doing a good job on the border,

you and the administration. The number of people trying to cross the U.S. southern border is at an all-time high. It's no secret. We are as committed to Ukraine as we've always been to authorize additional aid to defend itself against Russia's unprovoked aggression. That is not going to waver. Does this war in the Middle East put Ukraine on a back burner? Not for us. No, it does not put them on a back burner at all. We know that 155 millimeter artillery shells were literally diverted after they were mysteriously found. Remember, we ran out of them. We were sending cluster bombs instead.

Somebody found a warehouse full of them and they were diverted from Ukraine to Israel. Is she speaking truthfully when she says Ukraine is not on the back burner? Well, it's even more ironic than that, Judge. Those 155 millimeter shells were originally in Israel so that they'd be ready in case something happened there. They were transferred to Ukraine and now they're sitting in Ukraine either used up already and no more 155 millimeter shells are going to Israel. The answer to your question is Ukraine is finished. I mean, ask Mike Rogers. He's not going to give any priority to Ukraine. He's the new Speaker of the House, of course. And, you know, Zelensky is in his last throes. And what really troubles me is he's hitting out at nuclear power plants in Russia, in Kursk. Now, that's pretty desperate. And that could lead to, well, obviously, lead to really, really dire consequences for all of Europe. on Europe to rein Zelensky in, as they did before the summit there in Vilnius when he was threatening

to take out the power plant in the Russian-occupied part of Ukraine. This is really dangerous. What Zelensky will do can get us into a real peck of trouble. I hope they have a rein on him. Ray McGovern, always a pleasure, my dear friend. No matter what we talk about, we'll see you at the end of the week for our Intelligence Roundtable with our mutual friend, Larry Johnson. Thank you for your time. Thank you, Judge. Thank you for your patience, my dear friends. Again, apologies that we were unable to start on time.

Thank you for the subscriptions. We're up to 223,000. I think we'll surely hit that quarter of a million number by the end of the year. More as we get it. Judge Napolitano for Judging Freedom. Thank you.