Judging Freedom - Ray McGovern: Is Trump at Odds with Intel?

Episode Date: March 3, 2025

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Thank you. Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Monday, March 3rd, 2025. Ray McGovern will be here with us in just a moment. The president has turned the American policy on Ukraine around 180 degrees. How does the intelligence community accept that? But first this. Markets are at an all-time high. Euphoria has set in. The economy seems unstoppable. But the last administration has buried us so deep in debt and deficits, it's going to take a lot of digging to get us out of this hole. Are you prepared? Lear Capital specializes in helping people like me and you grow and protect our wealth with gold. Did you know that during Trump's last presidency, gold rose 54% to a record high. If that happens again,

that puts gold at $4,200 an ounce in his next term. Don't wait. Do what I did. Call Lear at 800-511-4620 or go to learjudgenap.com for your free gold ownership kit and special report, $4,200 gold ahead. When you call, ask how you can also get up to $15,000 in bonus gold with a qualifying purchase. Call 800-511-4620, 800-511-4620, or go to learjudgenap.com and tell them the judge sent you. Ray McGovern, welcome here, my dear friend. Always a pleasure to chat with you. Have you detected yet, this was only two days ago, any fallout from President Trump's confrontation with President Zelensky in the Oval Office in the intelligence community? Judge, the intelligence community is in flux.

People are being let go for good reason. New people are already in there, whether they're actually in the traditional agencies like the CIA and State Department, INR or not, Tulsi Gabbard is giving the president good advice on Ukraine. Whoa, miracle, miracle. No president has had good advice on Ukraine for a decade or so, okay? So what's happening here is a very salutary development. Somebody has got the word in to Tulsi Gabbard and she to the president, and that's largely informing us. The old kind of CIA,

the people who had said, for example, two years ago that Putin had already lost in Ukraine, that his army had been totally discredited, those people are gone and good riddance. We'll see who replaces them officially, but even now, and that's the big point seems to me, these people at the top of our government are getting good advice on Ukraine and the equities in Europe. Tell me how the following people react. We have the Ukraine intelligence services largely dependent upon, if you want, poodles of MI6 they're still there, CIA operatives on the ground in Ukraine, certainly on the ground in Russia.

What do these people do now? The United States of America vis-a-vis Russia and Ukraine is so radically, in your view and mine and the view of people watching us now happily so different. Yes, but not in Sir Keir Stormer's view. Oh, no, we're going to play Sir Keir in a few minutes. But does he still control MI6? Is MI6 still doing what it was doing when Joe Biden was president? Apparently so. Now, MI6 is a tool of the prime minister.

What Zelensky has left and what's left of his government is only the British. The CIA has been told, obviously, this is the new policy. If the Ukrainians still want to talk to you, fine, but get packed up because you're coming home anyway. They probably won't talk to you. So there's a disconnect between the British, that is MI6, and the CIA. It's reflected by what Sir Keir Starmer's delusionary comments are. And I don't know how long it will take MI6 or anybody else to disabuse this delusional person, but it hasn't happened yet.

And by all indications, it's not going to happen for another few weeks or maybe months or, God help us, a year? Here's exactly what you're talking about. Here is Sir Keir yesterday in London, right after he finished meeting with the heads of state of the major NATO countries that were willing to come to London on a Sunday afternoon. Chris, cut number one. Our starting point must be to put Ukraine in the strongest possible position now so that they can negotiate from a position of strength. And we are doubling down in our support. Yesterday evening, the UK signed a £2.2 billion loan to provide more military aid to Ukraine, backed not by the British taxpayer, but by the profits from frozen Russian assets.

And today I'm announcing a new deal, which allows Ukraine to use £1.6 billion of UK export finance to buy more than 5,000 air defence missiles, which will be made in Belfast, creating jobs in our brilliant defence sector. This will be vital for protecting critical infrastructure now and strengthening Ukraine in securing the peace when it comes. So two points. One, how long will it take the defense industry in Belfast to make those missiles? I would think the war will be over by the time they're produced. And two, did you notice how cavalierly he said proceeds from frozen Russian assets? In other words, they're going to steal the interest on the money, on the Russian money in European banks.

Yeah, they're already at that. Whether they succeed in that is another question. There are more sober-minded people in Europe that say, my God, this would create one terrible precedent. So we'll have to see if Sercure prevails on that score. The business of Belfast and all the arms producers in Europe, Judge, their stock has gone way up. It's almost as if they bought gold.

They're zoomed to the sky. What about the defense contractors, the people who have stock in Boeing and Raytheon and Lockheed? Down. Why? Well, peace is bad for business. Now, it's really interesting that Keir Starmer would be so open in saying that, but it's not unprecedented. Back last fall, not last fall, the fall before last, okay, when there was about $60 billion more going to be given to Ukraine, every one of the senators on that Senate committee bragged about the fact, well, we're not giving this money to Ukraine.

No, no, don't be mistaken. We're giving that to arms manufacturers in your district and your district and your district. So the money is staying here. This is a win-win for everyone. The money will be produced here. And there was only one senator in that whole Senate that didn't say that. And that was Chris Von Hollen from Maryland. It was bizarre. They were so open about it. Well, this is the industry here. So it's going to be very interesting if they start building weapons, the Russians are going to shoot them down as soon as they get anywhere near Ukraine,

the more so if they really follow through on putting peacekeeping troops there. You know, in another part of that interview, Sir Cure says, well, this will only work if we have full U.S. support. Well, hello, you don't have full U.S. support. And the Russians have already said, we're going to shoot you guys up if you show up unannounced. You will be considered a combatant, if you will. So, yeah, the whole thing is very truly delusional. Here's Sir Keir being even

more delusional, offering boots on the ground and planes in the sky. Cut number two, Chris. We will go further to develop a coalition of the willing to defend a deal in Ukraine and to guarantee the peace. Not every nation will feel able to contribute but that can't mean that we sit back. Instead those willing will intensify planning now with real urgency. The UK is prepared y bydd y cynlluniau'n ymwneud â'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawni'r cynlluniau'n gyflawn this effort must have strong US backing. We're working with the US on this point after my meeting with President Trump last week and let me be clear we agree with the president on the urgent need for a durable peace. Now we need to deliver together. It's almost as if he had blinders on and cotton in his ears during his meeting with

the president. And it's almost as if he's ignorant of what happened in the Oval Office with President Zelensky on Friday afternoon. We're going to put boots on the ground and planes in the air, but we can't do it without U. you're not going to get us support go ahead delusional is the the word now you don't have to be very old uh to go back to 2003 coalition of the willing is that ring any bells yeah yeah so we had the British and the United States trying desperately, desperately to get Security Council approval for attacking Iraq. They couldn't do it. Why? Because the British and the French said, this is BS. There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. count us out. So what did our intelligence services do? Well, as Katherine Gunn has exposed, they doubled their coverage electronic snooping

on all members of the UN Security Council. That order came out at the end of January 2003. So they hastened their efforts to make sure they could compromise enough people to get that resolution passed. And they miserably failed. And so what do we end up with? A coalition of the winning Britain, the US, and then Micronesia and Papua New Guinea and, you know, the other normal people that you put on the list. So this all has a really smelly ring. Now, there's more delusion here because there's no way that these people can prevail over Russia. And Obama himself said that, as I've said many times on this.

I don't know where the delusion comes. Trump has gotten out of this delusion. These guys in Europe, not yet. And there don't seem to be any stalwart, experienced, non-political hacks ruling places like France and Germany anymore. So there's trouble ahead if they go ahead with these crazy schemes. I think Trump is going to call them on it publicly like he did to Zelensky, and it'll all kind of fall apart. And the British and the other people say, well, we tried. We tried to support Ukraine for as long as it takes, and then Trump pulled

the rug out from under us. That's the game here. If Trump calls up Tulsi Gabbard this morning and says, I want to know who said what about me in London yesterday, would she be able to inform him? Stated differently, did the CIA surveil the meeting of the heads of European states in London, which produced this absurd statement from Sir Keir that we just ran? We surveil everything, Judge. CIA and the Five Eyes, in this case, Four Eyes, because the British will be excluded, we pick up everything we can.

Now, that's the question. Can we pick everything up? My friend Bill Binney from NSA, a former technical director, says, Ray, trust me, we can, and because we can, we do. Now, whether their capabilities extend to penetrating complex security devices like these inner sanctums, well, that's another question. But, you know, they get to talking to some of these people. There will be ways to get the information. But, you know, these days, it's pretty clear from what people say, delusionary people like Sir

Peter Stormer, what the game is all about. Nice little snippets of intercepted conversations are nice to have, but almost never do they actually say anything different from what you can glean from public statements. Do the European elites, in your view, actually fear a Russian invasion? And if so, do their intelligence services feed that fear? No and no. You know, it's a case of, in some cases, like Kaya Khalas, the foreign minister, so to speak, of the EU, she said so often, and the people in her home country have said so often, the Russians are going to invade the Baltics, they're going to invade the Baltics

like the Germans did, and now the Russians, that she may believe it, but it's delusionary. Now, there are people in Washington that promote this idea. What's her name? Fiona Hill, a big student of the Harvard's Richard Pipe. You know, the Russians are coming. The Russians are coming. She was head of intelligence. She was head of, she was right under what was now the, what is now the DNI. And she said in an op-ed just about a year and a half ago, Putin wants to drive the U.S., all the U.S. out of Europe. And he wants to be able to say, look, don't let the door hit your backside on the way out. Op-ed, New York Times.

So that's still around. Trump is not having any of it. Thank God for people like Tulsi Gabbard, who has her head screwed on right. And for those, and I have to confess, they may be reading our stuff, but I don't have any confirmation of that. They have some other people who are as enlightened about things in Europe as we pretend to be. We veteran intelligence professionals for sanity. And so I'm kind of very optimistic that Trump will prevail on this. There will be an agreement on peace in Ukraine. And it's just a damn shame that this couldn't have happened back in April of 2022,

just six weeks after the whole thing started. Do NATO members admit privately that they cannot pull this off, establish the security of Ukraine and resistance to the Russian military without the United States? Well, gee, how they do, of course. And Stormer, you just heard, admitted publicly. We can't, you know, we have to have the full support of the United States on this. Well, he was just told the U.S. is not in this game anymore. And the Russians are going to shoot you up and send those peacekeepers into Ukraine. So yeah, they say it privately as well as publicly. I guess that's all I want to say on that. Is there substantial resistance in Europe, as far as you know, to Trump's turning the tables 180 degrees on Ukraine and Russia vis-a-vis the U.S.? Yeah, well, Anna Lena Beyenbach has just said it's 360 degrees, Judge.

Remember her famous saying, this changed 360 degrees. Well, of course, she's wrong. It is 180 degrees. Well, of course she's wrong. It is 180 degrees. And so, yeah, the elites are whistling in the dark. They tell themselves about a world that doesn't exist anymore, the more so since the U.S. is out of this particular world. So the elites feel that way. Now, how about the people?

Well, look at that election in Germany just one week ago. My God, Mautz can't even govern with a majority just now between the AfD and Die Linke. They've got blocking power over anything he wants to do. So that was an election. That was a plebiscite. That was the people speaking. So the people are beginning to realize what happened to them, how their economic and other interests have been sacrificed, how they can't sell any cars anymore in Germany, for God's sake.

They've got to go to China. They're beginning to realize that they've been done dirty by their leaders. How long will it take to have a new 1848 European revolution? Well, I don't think it'll be next month, but maybe April. Here's, you know, Trump is not the only one whose mind has been changed on this. I realize that Senator, excuse me, Secretary of State Rubio works for the president. But here's a rather startling Marco Rubio yesterday with George Stephanopoulos. Chris. Why is it okay to call President Zelensky a dictator. Why is it okay to call President Zelensky a dictator, but not, as you say, call Vladimir Putin names?

Listen, we've spent three years calling Vladimir Putin names. That's not the point. The point that we're at now is we're trying to get the man to a table, the Russians. And I've said from the very beginning, maybe they don't want a deal either. We don't know, but we haven't talked to them in three years, but maybe

they do. The point is, do we want to make, I would ask everybody this, if there are no negotiations, what is the alternative? Another four years of war, another three years of war in which the United States and Europe continues to pour billions of dollars into a war in Ukraine. Is that the alternative? I've asked every foreign minister I meet with, tell me your idea of how this turns out. Most don't have a plan. A few have said, well, let's give them another year of fighting. A year from now, a year later, after another year of death, another year of destruction, then maybe Putin will be ready to negotiate at that point. That doesn't sound like a good plan to me, and it certainly

is not a plan the president's on board with. You know, I give him credit. He works for Donald Trump. That's 180 degrees. I keep using that phrase, forgive me, from where he was a year ago, even six months ago. But that's where he is now. And that's where the State Department is now. And that's the personification of the foreign policy of the United States of America. He was seated right there next to Vice President Vance when that incident occurred on Friday. Sure. Well, Trump has picked these people because they're going to do what Trump tells them to do. Now, Rubio has a very fungible kind of outlook on the world, but if Trump tells them to do. Now Rubio has a very fungible kind of outlook on the world, but if Trump tells them to say these things and to believe these things, well he started coming around months

ago when he talked about, look the bipolar world is bipolar, it's gone. We've got a multi-polar world here and we've got to sort of deal with that. Rubio said that. Now, what you showed there with respect to Rubio is really, really interesting. But more interesting for me is the real fly in this ointment. People like George Stephanopoulos, okay? What that interview reminded me of, reminded me of, when James McDermott, Democrat from the state of Washington, went to Baghdad, looked around, talked to everybody, and on a live Sunday show with Stephanopoulos, Stephanopoulos says, so, Representative McDermott, you're saying that there's no evidence of weapons of mass destruction there in Baghdad?

And McDermott says, yeah, that's what I'm saying. My God, how can you say that? So McDermott comes home. Of course, McDermott was absolutely right. He was listening to other people. And I know a couple of other people he was listening to, right? So, he turns out to be right. George Stephanopoulos, far from being discredited or pushed aside,

he'd make it really big bucks by challenging people like Romeo. Now, why can't you call Putinin a dictator for god's sake i tell you putin is no more dictator than many other leaders of many other countries he was elected and his approval rating hovers between 70 and 80 percent and those are there's a trusted poll so you know call him a dictator if you like what the hell is that going to accomplish? Ray McGovern, a pleasure, my dear man. I love it when you're passionate. Thank you very much for joining us. We'll look forward to seeing you on Friday at the end of the week with Larry Johnson. Thank you, Ray. All the best. Most welcome, Judge Napolitano for judging freedom. Thanks for watching!