Judging Freedom - Ray McGovern : What Putin Wants

Episode Date: October 21, 2025

Ray McGovern : What Putin WantsSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Up front payment of $45 required, that's the equivalent to $15 a month. Limited time, new customer offer for the first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on the unlimited plan, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. Hi. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for judging freedom. Today is Tuesday, October 21st, 2025. My dear friend Ray McGovern joins us now. Ray, always a pleasure as we were chatting in the break, Larry, and Scott Ritter and I must have mentioned your name at least once an hour, and we were like

peas in a pod the last week in Moscow. We missed you, but welcome here, and thank you for accommodating my schedule. Before we get to Anchorage and Budapest, and before we get to presidents Trump and Putin on the phone and Trump and Zelensky in the Oval Office, is there any question in your analytical mind, but that the Israelis will find some way, some excuse to restart the violence against the Palestinians in an effort to exterminate them? No. Well, we have, thank you for that very clear and concise answer. I haven't seen the tapes.

Ambassador Chas Freeman has of an Israeli general saying that they will foment a conflagration, not quite friendly fire, but involving the various gangs that they've fought. the Israelis fund and control on the streets of Gaza to justify a reintroduction of their program of extermination. Yeah, I saw that clip myself, and that's one reason I could simply say, no, they will find some pretext for sure. It will be all Hamas's fault. But I'd be really surprised if Netanyahu honored whatever promises he made to Trump.

with Whitkoff and what's that other guy, Trump's son-in-law. Oh, Kushner. Oh, Ray. Ray, I happen to show you this. This is slightly off topic, but this will either raise your blood pressure or your heartburn. Chris, cut number 14. Before the hostages actually come out, you decide to go to Gaza. And what did you see?

It looked almost like a nuclear bomb had been set off in that. area and then you see these people moving back and I asked the idea where are they going like I'm looking around these are all ruins and they said well they're going back to the areas where they're destroyed home was onto their plot and they're going to pitch a tent and it's very sad because you think to yourself they really have nowhere else to go would you say now having been there that it was genocide no no absolutely not no Second face, of course, with Steve Whitkoff. This is a rejection of reality for them to answer that very clear question with the words, no.

Judge, you have people who are appropriately labeled as sociopaths. I know them because they used to run and own and exorbit. rent from people living in my neighborhood in the apartment houses in the Bronx, which they owned. They care not to wit for other folks and for them to deny that this genocide, you know, it's just kind of part of the course. They could live in denial. The reality is such that the American people should really know, as increasingly numbers of us do, that this is genocide, and it shouldn't be allowed to happen again. Never again should be more than just a slogan.

Right. And never again should be applied universally rather than selectively. Isn't the basic premise of the Zionist experiment? Never again. And yet they perpetrate on other people something as egregious as that which was perpetrated on their ancestors back in the 30s and 40s. Yeah. With us watching on with our iPhones, that's the difference, Judge. This time we can't pretend not to know.

So we better get off our rear ends and do something about it. Trump has said that, well, I'll let you evaluate this, but it sounds to me as though he's all on board for the ethnic cleansing, whether it's a slaughter or a forced migration. I don't think there's any dispute about what he means. This is two days ago in the Oval Office. I think it's the Oval Office. Chris, number two.

In the past, you've said Gaza could be beautiful. It could be developed, and you said you wanted to develop it. Do you have plans for that? Not me as an individual. The U.S. I liked it as like Freedom Place. You called Freedom Place. and we would get all of the people that live there

into decent homes throughout the region. If you look, Egypt has a lot of land. Jordan has a lot of land, you know, right next door. A lot of countries have a lot of land. So I had an initial vision that we would get them, look at Gaza. I mean, you know, there's nothing standard. The whole thing is it's all rubble.

So it's not too hard to top that. And we'd build houses and would be paid for by the wealth of the, you know, the wealthiest countries are there. Ethnic cleansing, if ever I heard it. Well, yeah, an economic benefit. I mean, many foreign countries, including the Russians, talk about the elites being in charge. Well, there you have the epitome of it.

They're going to genocide people so that they can build nice luxury or apartments. land. It's really nice. You look out the water. It's really, really, all it needs to be is rehabilitated with rich Arabs who will do this kind of thing, irrespective of their obligation to support the Palestinians. Here's Al Jazeera on this topic. We'll get to Ukraine and Anchorage and Budapest and Putin and Trump and Zelensky in a minute, but I have to pick your brain on all of this. There's Al Jazeera. One group led by Yasser Abu Shabab, which is reportedly linked to extremist networks and has engaged in a variety of criminal activities, is directly receiving weapons from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's

government. And Netanyahu is proudly admitting to it, quote, what's wrong with that, he said when confronted, quote, it saves the lives of Israeli soldiers. Netanyahu's open admission isn't just arrogance, it's confidence. He knows that he can say the quiet part out loud. He knows Israel can violate international law, armed criminal gangs, bomb schools, starves civilians, and still be welcomed on the world stage, still receive weapons, still be praised as an ally. I asked Ambassador Freeman this earlier today, can Israel even exist without the United States? The answer is no.

And you know, when people talk about Israel's rights exist, I would question whether a state involved in now genocide, but earlier already, apartheid, whether offensively, a publicly racist state has a right to exist. You know, that's a question. Now, do they have a right to defend themselves? Well, that's the subsidiary question. But whether Israel has the right to exist in its present form with people doing,

what they're doing is a question for the first time in my mind. Right, right. All right. Switching gears, is there any question about what President Putin wants? Do we have any reason to believe that whatever he said to President Trump in Anchorage, and whatever he said to President Trump in that 90-minute phone call, which happened, by the way, while I was there on a Russian television studio with my friend and your friend, Dimitri Sybz,

is there any reason to believe that President Putin has changed the demands that he made at the outset, which were eventually agreed to until the Americans and the British disrupted that treaty? which treaty are you the one in Istanbul that had been negotiated in the spring of 22 Istanbul 1 yeah right well I think the way the Russia

look at it is look we need to bail Trump out when he needs us to bail him out we did it in early May we did it again since and now I've done it with respect to what he faced in terms of the Tomahawk issue and all

business. And so it was Putin who called Trump last week. And when Trump jocularly says, you know, I said to, I said to President Putin, I said, well, in a jocular way, how would it be if I, if I sent thousands of tomahawks for you crazy use? And then Trump says it. And he didn't, He didn't think that was funny. He didn't like that, okay? Well, reminded me when I was studying Russian, okay? Our Russian teacher, a really good one, didn't really know that the word laugh need a proposition after it.

And so we acted up and she would say, who are you laughing? What are you laughing? This is nothing to laugh. And of course, we would laugh some more. That's what Putin said to Trump, who are you laughing? This is nothing to lift, okay? Now, Trump gave in, as he usually does what he's fest, just as he did in anchorage. She's, okay, we would like that immediate ceasefire.

I give up on that idea. Let's continue. So what I'm seeing here looking toward Budapest, is the Russians wanting to approach this at a very high level, a bilateral level. So they want to increase a decent relationship with the U.S., and what I think will be top of their agenda would be getting Trump to agree to adhere to the restrictions on offensive missiles and bombs done by the new Stark Treaty, which expires in February 5. That offer has been on the table for a month now. They still need an official response from Trump. Trump said, well, I think that sounds like a good idea. I think that may come out of Budapest.

And the other thing, you know, is, well, how about this pipeline under the Bering Strait? Now, I have economists telling me that, look, there are very small limits to how much Russia, U.S. economic relations can grow. I say, yeah, but the symbolism here is incredible. Right. Hello, Kiril Dimitriov. Now, bear in mind, he spent 13 years from middle school through Stanford and his MBA from Harvard in the United States. So did Margherita Simunian, the head of Archie. They started out by being hosted by families in New Hampshire, okay?

What do I say that? They don't the American people. They've lived here. I dare say they must like the American people, but most of them. Most of them are pretty, but likable, right? And so they distinguish between these elites and the people in the United States. They are uniquely positioned to advise Putin and the others to do sensible things. Now, on the other side of things, how many U.S. leaders or policymakers ever set foot in this COVID Union?

much less Russia. You know, Larry and I spent about 90 minutes interviewing Maria Zakharopovar. Sacherva. She is the official spokesperson for the foreign ministry. She looks at me and she goes, how do you like such and such a restaurant? It's an Italian joint in my neighborhood. How do you know it? I lived there for four years.

I lived in the U.S. I shopped in the same supermarket. She gives me the name. I said, well, that's where I go to my fresh fruit. I lived there. I talked to the people. I interact with them. Her understanding of American culture, American attitudes,

American prejudices, American biases, American understanding of Russia so far exceeds our understanding. Not you because you're an expert in the field and you speak the language, but the average American, and even the average American diplomat. I mean, how could you compare Rubio to Lavrov? Lavrov lived here for 10 years in this same Upper East Side neighborhood. It's a very, very different way to train and prepare

and then utilize the knowledge of your diplomats. Just had a little insight into this. There was a foreign ministry interpreter assigned to our little group headed by Oliver Stone and he and I sat down for lunch some time and I was asking him how do I see I have this that I want to say in my next interview could you just check it out see if it's idiomatic Russian and maybe give me a better better way to say it and so I wrote it out and you look there he said you write Russian cursive I said well yeah I never learned how to print But, I mean, does there no diplomats write Russian cursive?

How did you learn it? So, you know, it's not hard. Russian cursive is a lot easier than doing those little snutsky. So this is just an indication of not only professors or others, many professors are good, but not too many. And then you have the diplomats who can hardly speak Russian and can we ask them to write it. They have to sort of do the characters as in printed Russian instead of the cursive. So there's a lot of people in Russia that know which ends up. And I think that they're advising Putin.

Look, just kind of relax. Take your time. You're winning in Ukraine. This is a biggie coming to Budapest. You have a couple of really good things you have to do. How about some symbolic significance to this Bering Strait Tunnel? It may not be possible. Well, most of engineers it is possible.

Eight years. Let me stop for a second. Chris, can you put up the full screen of the Bering Straits? Now, I guess there are two proposals. They may be wild-eyed. I don't know. You tell me. One is a pipeline.

The other is an actual tunnel through which vehicles, private motor vehicles and commercial vehicles would be driven. Well, actually, it's a railroad that's most in vogue here. The distance is 65 miles, 100 kilometers. There are two islands right in the middle. It's eminently doable. And the interesting thing is that Dmitziev, who's the same fellow I told you, spent 13 years in the U.S., and who's been touting this thing since April.

out in one of his statements this past week, they've been working on it for six months, okay? So are there feasibility studies? There are, are the recent ones? Yeah, there are those too. Now, it may take a long time. Let me take eight years or four years or something like that and, you know, could cost $8 billion. Eight billion dollars, you know, not so bad. it could be done. I hope that they would get the kinds of engineers that put up that bridge into Crimea or maybe the engineers that build those railroads in China rather than the engineers that put that floating dock into Gaza. Anyhow, the expertise is there. The technology makes it more possible than never before and the symbolic value you know that at this point in time were they

to agree to do that well you know that would be that would be linkage the old concept of linkage you link that to progress in arms control even if it's only an agreement to abide by earlier constraints for for another year and you put that together with other things that are that are doable at this point that's what the russians are after now what's what we're What is Trump after? Well, he's after a personal meeting with these people. He's interested in trying to get them to do something about Ukraine. But Ukraine is gone.

It's lost. And by the time they get together, the Donetsk, most of it will be completely clear of Ukrainian troops. So that's the facts on the ground. The other thing is that who wants Ukrainian people to freeze this winter? I don't. Anybody else? and what I want, maybe some sociopath bite, but the energy, the gas is 60% out now. And so there's a degree of urgency here.

So if that could be some sort of agreement, not to attack each other's energy facilities, that's incredibly possible. Now, will it end the war in Ukraine? I don't think it matters very much to the Russians. They've already won. Would it help Trump? Well, might, but he's already discounted the Europeans. And he's put Zelensky in his place.

No tomahawks, no nothing. We'll sell what we can to the Europeans that don't have any money to buy them. And then they'll give them to you who don't have any money. Any troops demand them. You know, it's quite a deal that's being prudged about. In a Q&A just yesterday, Trump was asked, reminded that he said recently that Ukraine can win the war. Here's his response, and then I'm going to tell you what Maria Zakharova, the spokeswoman for the foreign ministry, said about this type of language. I shouldn't say it about this because I hadn't been said yet. Chris, cut number nine.

Just a few weeks ago, you said that Ukraine could possibly win the war and territory. Well, they could. They could still win it. I don't think they will, but they could still win it. I never said they would win. And I said they could win. Anything can happen. You know, war is a very strange thing. Does not get under their skin. They understand this, as you've explained, as a politician addressing as a base.

Yeah. Zaharva and others have said, look, you know, this is his style. We come to expect this. They don't say it in these terms. and he runs off at the mouth, please don't take it seriously. Sometimes he's overwrought, and often he exaggerates. They say that. So the real stuff comes when Putin calls Trump and says,

look, this is nothing to laugh. Okay, let's get together and see if we can improve our bilateral relationships. If we can do Ukraine, that's good too. But look, we're winning. And, you know, if you can prevent Ukraine, from freezing with the ukrainians from freezing all winter well will you talk about that but they would have to stop doing what they're doing to us and you know there are there are lots of ways we could deal here we don't care about territory we care about killing the ukrainian army which

has been accomplished 90 percent and then we care about denatsification but we're willing to wait once the army goes the nazis may flee I forgot to mention this when we were on discussing Gaza, so we'll just jump back to it for a minute. This will turn your stomach, Minister Smotrich, saying there will be Jewish settlements in Gaza, Chris No. 15. Right now, we have the opportunity, especially today, to stop everything and say for a moment the hostages, thank God, life has

returned. That was the main argument for why we are not continuing the war. And now we need to return to fighting. We need to go back to war. We need to unleash the gates of hell upon them. Five years ago, five or seven years ago, Matt Ho and I

went with the Veterans for Peace delegation to the West Bank. And we saw the worst of it. We were fired at. First, by the settlers, and then Well, we weren't fired out by the local police, but they allow the settlers to have their will with us. Now, we climbed back up this mountain, and I heard fire that I hadn't heard since basic training, okay? It was rifle fire.

It was from an M1, for God's sake, okay? I served to Matt and said, is that what I think it is? He says, yes, it is. Get your head down, for God's sake, McGovern. So we know what it's like to be harassed by the settlers. We were about 15 people, the settlers came en masse, and then the local police wouldn't help us at all. So I've seen that firsthand right up front, and that's what the people in the West Bank, mind you, are facing today in spades. And we have to stop it.

We just have to tell Trump, look, it's you who are enabling this. We elected you. We hold you responsible. Great McGovern. Thank you very much. great to be back with you my dear friend I'm not sure when Larry's returning but he says he'll be with us for the round table on Friday

great we'll see you then my friend all the best we'll find out when Larry is returning because he will be here at one o'clock this afternoon we originally said 11 but his commitments caused us to move it so Larry Johnson at one o'clock Matt Ho to whom Ray just referred at 2 o'clock, and my dear friend, Colonel Karen Koukowski, at 3 o'clock. Judge Napolitano for Judging Freedom.

Thank you.