Judging Freedom - Ray McGovern : What Ukraine Can Learn From the Finns

Episode Date: September 2, 2025

Ray McGovern : What Ukraine Can Learn From the FinnsSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Don't let an expensive wireless bill disrupt your summer plans. As you map out beach getaways, backyard gatherings, and long weekends, your wireless bill shouldn't be a source of stress. With Mint Mobile, you get the reliable coverage and high-speed performance you're used to at a significantly lower cost. For a limited time, Mint is offering three months of unlimited premium wireless service for just $15 a month, while others are dealing. with overage fees and surprise charges, you can enjoy peace of mind and more money in your

pocket. Say goodbye to overpriced plans and hello to simple, straightforward wireless service. Every Mint mobile plan includes high-speed data, unlimited talk and text, and access to the nation's largest 5G network. Plus, you can keep your current phone number and contacts. Make the switch and get three months of unlimited service for just $15 a month. This year, skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your three-month unlimited wireless plan for just $15 a month at mintmobile.com slash freedom. That's mintmobile.com slash freedom. Up front payment of $45 required.

That's an equivalent to $15 a month. Limited time new customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited. plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. Hi, everyone, Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Tuesday, September 2, 2025. The summer's over. It seems like a Monday here in the U.S., but today is a Tuesday. Ray McGovern will be with us in just a minute on the significance of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. and this interesting comparison,

what can Ukraine learn from the experience of the Finnish government? But first this. My friends, if you care about your liberty and your right to control your own future, you need to hear about this. From October 10th to 12th, Mikhail Thorpe, host of the Expat Money Show, is bringing together top experts from around the world

for the expat money online summit, and it's completely free to attend. You'll learn how to legally protect your wealth, secure second residences and citizenships, reduce your tax burden, and own property abroad, all to safeguard your freedom. This year's focus is on Latin America, where opportunity is booming. Argentina is shifting to free markets. El Salvador is undergoing a dramatic transformation, and Panama and Paraguay are offering simple residency programs. A plan B is no longer optional, it's essential.

Reserve your free ticket at expatmoneysummit.com. And if you want VIP access with special perks, including lifetime replay access, and exclusive VIP panels, use promo code judge for 20% off your upgrade. That's expatmoneysummit.com, promo code judge. Ray, McGovern, welcome here, my dear friend. Before we get to Ukraine and the Finns, and before we get to your interesting observations on the Shanghai Cooperation Agreement,

I want you to take a look at this. This is the beginning of the Armada making its way to Gaza and the tens of thousands of people that turned out to send them off. This armada has 50 ships in it, including a lot of media embeds and a lot of Americans.

One would think the United States Navy would protect these peace-loving, charitable, generous people who just want to deliver food and medical supplies to the Gazans, but I guess we shouldn't bet on it. No, we shouldn't. As you may recall, I was on one of those flotillas in 2011, and it was made clear to me by sources not only in the NSC, the National Security Council, but also in the State Department, that Obama would just as soon see the Israelis have their way with us. And if we came home in coffins, well, that would be all right with them because that would help them in the next election, APA. would really be very, very much friendly to them if that happened. This I had from two sources.

So, no, the U.S. Navy has got to get anything about this. The U.S. Navy will probably run interference for the Israelis if they're called to do that. I mean, do the Israelis, I'm going to guess they do. I've never heard much about it. Do the Israelis have a Navy? I mean, will they send ships to prevent these generous people? They do have a Navy? will they send ships to block them from landing yes that's what they do and they take them to

this little port of astud and then they put them on trial and they send them home the only good thing about this is if you want to you can get sent home free of charge the israelis will pay for your return flight wow what happened with you with the one you were on did they did they stop it were you arrested were you prosecuted this was the year after the mavi momera with the Turkish cargo and Turkish people was blasted almost out of the water, several people killed by Israeli commandos. This time, we registered our boat in the United States. Otherwise, it was an American flag ship.

We rebuilt it, and there were about 40 of us, including people like Alice Walker and other people feel really strongly about Gaza. Well, we were told that, okay, you can sail, but we have to inspect you. They inspected us. We were ready to sail. All of a sudden, they say, no, no, there's something wrong with your air conditioner. Air conditioner I got. You should see this boat.

Anyhow, they sold the stones to sail. Well, we got our captain to agree to sail anyway, and we went out the next morning. We got nine miles out of Piraeus, and then the Ninja Turtle is on the Coast Guard of Athens there in Greece turned us back. There was a standoff for an hour. They were terribly apologetic. They said, look, we're just under

orders. What happened was Obama prevailed on Papua Deu said, look, you want an I AMF loan? You want to bail out your economy? Don't let that ship out of the Mediterranean. And so we were prevented. They impounded the ship. We never saw the ship again. Well, we saw it again,

but it was not released to us. That was a lot of money. We sunk into that thing. We all had to go home, but we'll all learn a lesson. Just as the sailors on the USS Liberty in 1967 learned a lesson, in their case, the Israelis learned that they could literally get away with murder. In our case, we learned that the U.S. government was not willing to protect us if the Israelis did do what they did to the U.S. Liberty crew.

So, you know, if you want proof positive that the Israelis believe that they get up with murder to include U.S. citizens, well, there are two case histories. One of the viewers in what we call the chat room writes in and says, Judge, the Israelis do have a Navy. It's called the United States Navy, which will do whatever they need. Funny way to put it, but obviously very sad. the USS Liberty, of course, is one of the great tragedies in modern American history where the Israeli jets attacked the boat, killed 134 sailors, and LBJ and McNamara refused to allow a military response. Actually, Judge, there were 34 killed.

Ah, 134 injured. Correct. Right. You got that right. Correct. Thank you for correcting me. It was a terrible, terrible tragedy, terrible behavior by the President of the United States and the Secretary of Defense.

Again, before we get to the other topics, Alistair Crook argued just about an hour and a half ago that Zionism is now barbarism. Do you agree? Of course I agree. And of course, he knows 10 times more than I do about the subject. When you have Israeli leaders boastfully saying, we're going to do more genocide, more starvation,

And then you have most of the Israeli populists, my God, approving that. I mean, what further proof is needed. So, yeah, Alistair, I saw the segment. Alistair was brilliant as usual, and I think he's right on that score. Tell me about intelligence officers. How do intelligence officers with moral qualms about what their government is doing? How do they react? How do they participate?

in it. How would an intelligence officer like you, or who thinks like you do, possibly aid the Israeli slaughter? Well, it's sort of a fixture. I mean, Mossad is pretty much an arm of the CIA, or some people say the CIA is simply an arm of Mossad. Now, that's the reality. We used to have folks that were pretty objective working on Israel. They've long since passed on to working in the library or some other place like that. It's really infectious, this kind of corruption. But I will say that there are little signs of light. There is that deputy national intelligence officer. We don't know her name. Now, this is about as high as you can get. It's a national sort of thing. I happen to be one of those in the 70s, if you can believe it, Deputy National Intelligence Officer.

She couldn't put up with what John Brennan and James Comey were doing and falsifying the information to make believe, make believe out of whole cloth, no evidence that Putin preferred Trump over Hillary Clinton, the whole Russia Gate thing. Okay. Now, she fought tooth and nail. She went to Inspector General after Inspector General, and she went to the Senate Intelligence. committee as well they wouldn't let her in the door now the whole thing is on the record there were email exchanges very very copious what became of her what became of her career well um this is not known uh her name is being withheld for obvious reasons there lots of people about to get her for telling the truth and i had a really strange encounter with senator mark

Kelly, he was down here in Raleigh over the weekend, and I asked him, I, why did you not see this whistleblower to tell you that Brennan and Comey were lying through their teeth? She had the evidence right there. Why did you see her? And he says, well, what's her name? And I said, oh, I don't know her name, but you know her name, Senator Kelly. No, I don't know her name. I said, you can get, yeah, I can get us. Is he on the Senate, is he on the Senate Intelligence Committee? Then he surely knows her name. He's got a top secret national security clearance. Well, this is what he does.

He says, well, Mr. McGovern, what do you want me to do? You want me to pull out my cell phone and call her? That would be a good idea, Senator. Well, I'm not going to do it now. Ray, is there a video of your encounter with Senator Kelly? There is. It's up on my website now, Ray McGovern.com. At six minutes, I had a friend who knew I was going to try to ask a question.

There were no questions from the floor except mine. It happened to the last one. They shut it down after I asked. I remember a video where you were dragged out. I hope that, or I trust that didn't happen over the weekend. Not this time. Well, there were a Raleigh policeman there, but they happened to be friends of mine. All right.

You and I have emailed over the weekend and you have educated me on the Finnish experience, the experience that the Finns have had with the Russians, which went from bad to good to very good. Now who knows where it is there in NATO. Give us your briefly your understanding of this and how this could be a model for Ukraine. Well, this was raised in the old. Oval office, when the president of Finland said something about, hey, Finnish neutrality and it's a pretty good thing. And this was all in the context of Ukraine. How might there be an auscung, an exit for us in Ukraine? And Jeffrey Roberts, my good friend, a historian,

the historian emeritus at University College Cork, he wrote this wonderful article about instances where Finland was faced with the situation that Ukraine faces now, a no win. They couldn't win. Okay. So what did they do? They appeased. They said, look, let's do a deal. Okay.

And in each case, Stalin, both of these cases, they said, okay, we'll do a deal. You do reparations. We won't invade you. You're neutral. You're neutral. You got that? You're going to be neutral. Okay.

But that held until just last, you know, two years ago when Finland decided to visit NATO. Now, the Russians were pretty clever, even Stalin. Now, whatever you say about Stalin, it's pretty clever. Here's a little thing that Jeff Roberts sent me about Stalin. Where is it? Here it is. Yeah. So the Finns were a little bit late in paying reparations after the war, okay? And so Stalin is, all right, well, we'll postpone it for a year or two.

And the Finns said, look, that's very generous. And get this, Stalin, it's not generosity. It's a calculation. When we treat others well, they're nice to us. Our generosity makes up for a policy of Tsarist autocracy. Its policy towards Finland, Romania, Bulgaria made their peoples. enemies of Russia. We want neighboring countries and peoples to have a good attitude toward us. So it's not niceness. It's not generosity. It's simply calculation. So let's tell it.

Now, the point here is the Finns were on their back. They had a chance to fight to the last Finn, right? To lose another 100,000 troops. They sport bravely for a while. But anyhow, in their case, the Swedes, and the US and Britain encourage the Finns look please just do neutral be neutral

and this will be really good for us as well the allies in this case with respect to Ukraine the Ukrainians are not getting any help from the coalition

of the brain dead as I call them from Stomer from Mautz from Macon they don't seem to they're delusionary if they think

that they're doing the Ukrainians a favor by saying, okay, no problem. We'll buy U.S. arms with what money, I would ask, and which arms? There aren't any arms available for sale, okay? And then we'll give them to the Ukraine, but the Ukrainians don't have any soldiers to man them. Other than that, this is a really good solution. So it's a no good solution. what Jeff Roberts is suggesting, and the economists picked up on this in its most recent, the Economist magazine picked up on this in its most recent issue, and this is pretty much the same thing that Jeff Roberts says, look, look at the Finnish example. It worked beautifully, and what happened? Finland kept their sovereignty, they kept their independence, and they prospered

as few other countries in Western Europe prospered during those Cold War years. So why not try it? And I think it's a really good idea. I hope it gets around in Washington circles. Most people in Washington read The Economist. I read it just when I have to. I read it as well. I love it. There's no publication like it.

It's jam-packed every week. But back to the Finnish experience, they were sovereign, they were independent, they were prosperous, they were happy, they were peaceful. and then they joined NATO. Why the hell did they join NATO? Oh, I was afraid you're going to ask me that, Judge. I don't have a Kenya onunk, as the Germans, I don't have any idea. There's this craziness that has enveloped European leaders, such as they are, bubbling up to the top.

So you got this Kayakhalas, you've got Usela for the lion, you've got, my palm mouths and these people, I don't know, but they're delusionary. Now, the hope is that when Daddy, you recall, you recall that the new head of NATO, Rute at the last NATO summit, he said, oh, Daddy's here. Hi, Daddy, come on in. Trump has just arrived, see? Now, what they have to realize and what cold reality will finally dawn on them is Daddy is a deadbeat. Okay, daddy's not going to pay child support, okay?

He's not going to pay alimony. Daddy is gone, and his vice president has said, quote, we're done with Ukraine. We gave them all the money. We're not going to give them anymore. We're done with Ukraine. So how long is it going to take the sink into the coalition of the brain dead? I would think in weeks, but I'm not sure because they're meeting today in Paris,

and Zelensig will be there, and they'd be slapping it. Well, they'd be hugging them. There's a lot of hugs now these days. But my God, they're crazy because if they persuade Zelensky that they can help them, they don't have any basis on which to promise that. And Zelensky is quite able and willing to fight until the last Ukrainian. And it's going to come down to that with the next couple of months, if not weeks, because the Russians are moving inexorably to the West toward the Nippa River.

Chris found something that you'll find very interesting. Chris. Hillary Clinton and wanting her to win, and it did that consequently because most Americans, I dare say most of you, believe that the Russians are evil and garnered and that Trump said let's go into Ukraine and probably would support it because you're very much. My question is that there was.

There was a national intelligence. May I have that? No, no. No, no. Let me hear you. Quiet out, folks. I'm interested in the question. Okay.

The question is this. There's a national intelligence officer. I was a national intelligence. It's just about as high as you can get, okay? Ask a question. She tried to whistleblow, and she came to your committee and said, look, these guys lied through that team about Russian gate, gate and you wouldn't see her and neither would anyone under you know the name

I don't know the name but you know the name or you have the power to find the name can I comment I just want to make a comment on what you said sir sit down for so I do have the power to find out who that person is I haven't you why haven't well I don't know what you're talking about oh so let me just say this on the on the hole. Who's the that pushed you? Well, he's the head of the Democrats

in the Raleigh area. He's not a bad guy. He's airborne, 82nd airborne all the way. But, you know, he's a political functionary, and he was trying to protect the good senator.

And, you know, I have to say that two women came up and tried man, two women came up and tried manfully to protect him after because I went up to him and I said now, Senator Kelly, I also want to register my beef against your slandering, my good friend, Professor Ted Postal, emeritus of MIT. He says, who's that? Who's that? I said, well, go look at your footage at the Tulsi Gabbard hearing. You slandered him. I don't even know who he is. Well, look it up because you owe him an apology.

I told Ted that last night. He said, oh, really? That's good. So anyhow, if you look that up, you'll see that what's his name? Kelly was Senator Kelly was reading through his script that they gave him. And the script required him to denigrate Professor Postal, whom we all know, in favor of some crackheads who were saying, look, oh yeah, Oshua Lassad did that chemical attack. even though he was winning and even though he didn't have that kind of sell yeah he did it and so

Senator you know I have something that somebody sent me just this would just take one more second here if I can find it it has to do with a remark I got from someone who read the who watched the thing that you just said here it is now what he said was look John Kennedy and his profiles of courage talked about the Senate. He knew whereof he was speaking. He was a senator, are you? And he said, look, you know, you have people there that are not real smart, that are rich, and that's how they get their position or they're beholden to the military industrial complex.

It's not a real good group to be with. I'd rather be president. So he sent me this thing. He said, look, keep fighting on, McGovern, even though the odds are against you. Keep fighting on, McGovern. and you always have a place here in which to do it. Thank you very much, Ray. I have a lot of other things to ask you about,

but time marches on, and I'll hold them until we're together with Larry Johnson on Friday. Thank you, my dear friend. You're most welcome. Very, very, very courageous man, as all of you who watch this program know. And the aforementioned Larry Johnson will be here at 1130 this morning, at 1.30 this afternoon,

Professor Jeffrey Sachs at 3 o'clock this afternoon, Scott Ritter. It turns on the Palantano for judging Freedom. Thank you. Thank you.