Judging Freedom - Ray McGovern : When “Foreign Policy” Crosses into Kidnapping

Episode Date: January 5, 2026

Ray McGovern : When “Foreign Policy” Crosses into KidnappingSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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And with Ollie's in-app on-demand health screenings, tap real experts whenever you need peace of mind. Visit ollie.com slash crossover and use code crossover for 60% off your first box. Freedom is a fragile thing, and it's never more than one generation away from extinction. It is not ours by way of inheritance. It must be fought for and defended constantly by each generation, for it comes only once to a people. And those in world history who have known freedom and then lost it, have never known it again. What if sometimes to love your country, you had to alter or abolish the government? What if Jefferson was right?

What if that government is best, which governs least? What if it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong? What if it is better to perish fighting for freedom than to live as a slave? What if freedom's greatest hour of danger is now? Hi, everyone, Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Monday, January 5th, 2025, or 2026, pardon me. Ray McGovern joins us now. Ray, thank you very much, such as it is a happy new year to you.

Your take on the United States attack on Venezuela? Well, Judge, the words fail me. It's not the America that I knew or that I grew up in. It's just beyond the pale. And it's also very foolish because this is given Trump, as if he needed it, his own Vietnam, this is not going to end well for any of those clowns that peered up there behind Trump and Trump himself. So I think it's a blessing in a sense that Venezuela is so far away from Russia or from China.

Each have certain equities there, but it's not their core interest. And so I don't expect this to escalate into anything approaching a nuclear war. And you have to thank people like Putin and Xi for being perspicacious enough to realize that, and to make clear that they're willing to work with the United States as long as their own core interests are not threatened. And it looks like Putin, but Trump has some sense of when to stop. We'll see about that. Is the United States now regarded as a rogue state

ready to use brute force in order to enhance its hegemony, a government not worth negotiating with because it won't be faithful to its agreements? I mean, after all, we wrote the U.N. charter, which was profoundly violated here. There's no doubt about that, Judge. The external world has given up on us in terms of being the Gavora Sabas Vosovni, which means in Russian ability and ability to create agreements of any kind of. kind, much less a treaty. Now, the difference with Trump, of course, is that he was, he was possible and he was able to talk, okay, he was able to talk with the Russians, talk with Putin

maybe nine times or so. So that's different. And they have different channels now by which they communicate. That's a fail-sake mechanism. And as I say, we'll have to see, we'll have to see how Trump reacts now, those parts from the drones that were fired toward de Valdai, they're in Washington now. They're being looked at. And if I were Putin, I would say, okay, I know it's in those, in a telemetry and in those directional things. Now, let's see if Putin, let's see if Trump is completely captive to the people in CIA. Let's see if the CIA is still shaping the evidence to suit the policy, or let's see, and miracles happen, where the Trump will get the real scoop on this and could have to hold back

and stop vacillating as to whether this was aimed at Putin's residence or it was not. Well, I want to ask you a few more questions about Venezuela, but it is. even though Trump publicly has changed his mind from saying, I believed Putin. Putin told me his home was fired on now saying he doesn't. It's clear that the evidence is there. The Russians are not going to give phony evidence to the defense attache, and it demonstrates indisputably.

Lovroff, accompanying, notice, the involvement of the CIA in targeting Putin's house. Well, that's right, Judge, but you know, there's many a slip between cup and lip. John Ratcliffe is running things now in the intelligence community. Where's Tulsi? It's a where's Waldo sort of thing? Where is Tulsi Gabbard, a voice of sanity? She's been out of the picture.

So whether Ratcliffe will trim the evidence around the policy is an open question. whether Trump will be smart enough to realize that he's being had again by the intelligence community or whether he just can't rein in the intelligence community, well, if I'm in Moscow, I'm Putin, and I'm saying, which is worse, that the president wants to have a decent relationship with us, as he repeatedly says, as is in his new strategy guidance? or can he not? Is he unable to do this because of the deep state? Now, if I were poaching, I would look at on, I would say, well, no, a second, he knows what happened to him last time. He knows that James Comey, for God's sake, and John Brennan mounted the equivalent of a coup against him. Now, oh, what's happened to them?

Well, Trump's been in office now for a whole year. Oh, yeah, Comey was indicted. Oh, yeah. Trump was so inept. He picked some pretty girl to be the attorney, and she screwed up. And so, he's going to walk. What will happen to John Brennan? Well, this time will be a blonde, you know.

Give me a break. So if I'm Putin, I'm saying, this guy is incompetent. He's a little delusional. He's a lot narcissistic. We better keep handling him with kid gloves. You see, my overarching interest here is whether there be a nuclear war. Yeah, here's, if you interpret what Putin has said, you have to conclude that he is very, very interested in preventing a nuclear war. He's not going to do anything at all perpetrated, but he'll do everything he can to deter it.

And that might include the use of an Ereschenik or two on Ukraine within the next few weeks. In order to end this thing. I want you to take a look at Trump the other night, and we've compared him to the way he looked and what he said about the same subject matter prior to the other night. Chris, cut number seven. We're going to run the country until such time as we can do a safe, proper, and judicious transition.

Our current strategy of nation's. building and regime change is a proven absolute failure. We will break the cycle of regime change. We must abandon the failed policy of nation building and regime change that Hillary Clinton pushed in Iraq, in Libya, in Egypt, and in Syria. regime change takes chaos. You've seen how that works over the last 20 years. That hasn't been too good.

We're getting out of the nation-building business. We're going to stay until such time as the proper transition can take place. He obviously didn't know what he was talking about and his Secretary of State has attempted, I think, futilely to walk that back over the weekend. The government can't deliver the mail, and now they're going to run. the government of another country? My takeaway is that Trump is not well. Yeah. They didn't look well the other night,

and he was reading feverishly, as if he couldn't wait to get the read over with. Yeah, and then he fell asleep when his little sat traps there were holding forth. So again, if I'm looking at this from the Kremlin perspective, I'm saying, my God, As long as this guy starts to fool around in his own hemisphere, that's bad enough. We have to be very alert, but let's not get drawn into something bigger.

Let's see how Trump reacts to the evidence that you just described. The evidence that you and I both believe is pretty conclusive with respect to how these missiles, how these drones are aimed at Putin's residence. and, if Alistair is correct, at something deeper. The command center is there in Valdei. What about the reaction in Beijing? I mean, they're typically very, very measured, and they abide that a Sicilian one-liner

with which I know you're familiar, revenge as a dish, which tastes best when eaten cold. But what do you think their reaction is in light of their economic involvement in Venezuela. They're very patient. They have a billion or two invested in Venezuela, and they get a lot of oil from Venezuela or have. Their reaction will be typically Chinese.

That is, let's take the long view here. Let's see what kind of kettle of, what kind of crazy thing that Trump has got himself involved. Let's see how he's going to run the country. When he said, we're going to run the country, I think Alistar is right. You looked at those other fellows, you know, Hexeth and Rubio and is, oh, we're going to run the country? Yeah, who's going to run the country? Well, these guys will.

Give me a break. So I think the Chinese and the Russians are patient enough. It's not in their backyard to wait and see how these things evolve. China can get more oil and more gas from Russia if it wants to. You know, Jane is not in a bind. They're going to wait and see what happens. They're not going to come involved militarily. That's for sure because that's a fool's errand in our neighborhood.

Here's Rubio yesterday when he was asked twice, what is the legal authority here? You tell me if you think he actually answered the question, right? Cut number 10, Chris. President Trump was pretty clear yesterday. He said the United States is going to run Venezuela. under what legal authority? Well, first of all, what's going to happen here is that we have a quarantine on their oil. That means their economy will not be able to move forward until the conditions that are in the national interest of the United States

and the interests of the Venezuelan people are met. And that's what we intend to do. So that leverage remains. That leverage is ongoing. And we expect that it's going to lead to results here. We're hopeful that it does positive results for the people of Venezuela, but ultimately, most importantly for us in the national interest of the United States. We will no longer have, hopefully, as we move forward here, we'll set the condition so that we no longer have in our hemisphere of Venezuela

that's the crossroads for many of our adversaries around the world, including Iran and Hezbollah, is no longer sending us drug gangs, is no longer sending us drug boats, is no longer a narco-trafficking paradise for all those drugs coming out of Colombia to go in through the Caribbean and towards the United States. Let me ask the question again.

What is the legal authority for the United States to be running Venezuela? Well, I explain to you what our goals are and how we're going to use the leverage to make it happen. As far as what our legal authority is on the quarantine, I'm very simple. We have court orders. These are sanction boats, and we get orders from courts to go after and seize these sanctions.

So that's, I don't know, is a court not a legal authority? Wow, this guy wants to be the president of the United States. There's no basis under the Constitution for the president on his own to invade another country and decapitate the leadership. Excuse me, and then stay there, and say we're going to run it. But he's got a supine Congress. It only takes a few Republicans to join the Democrats.

We'll see what happens. How, if at all, do you think this series of events in Venezuela will affect the negotiations between the United States and Russia over Ukraine, Ray? Just to make a point on your last thing, the Democrats are just as guilty of disregarding the Constitution. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. That's a point to make. Absolutely.

With respect to negotiations, look, all bets are off. I mean, how are the people in the Kremlin going to persuade Putin to appear amicable or appear able to deal with this fellow who's gone a little bit crazy, crazier than he usually is? So I see the negotiations themselves as ending, at least for the nonce. Now, the big question, of course, is will there be a nuclear confrontation? And I think, you know, you can look at the history of all this. You can see what the U.S. did or what U.S. clients did with respect to strategic bombers,

with respect to other things, and now with respect to the attack on Valdei. the Russian response has been, look, let's remember number one, we don't want a nuclear war. Yeah, we may be upset, we may be outraged, but look, we've got the thing going here in Ukraine. Nobody's going to win this. This is our territory. Let's focus on this and just make sure that Trump knows through our other channels that we're serious about this. And as I said before, I think this might be reinforced by an Arashnik or two on Ukrainian targets, probably those where we have NATO personnel identified.

I think that's coming quite soon because Putin does have to demonstrate to the naysayers here that he is not a paper tiger. He's going to go after the people who he thinks are responsible for this. Now, the NATO technology that was in those drones, You know, maybe it's hard to pin that on the United States itself, but there is technology from NATO. So the Russians can say, well, all right, you better stop that. And Mr. Trump, to show your goodwill, well, you'll finally end your intelligence support for these people. Wow.

Would we be naive to say that MI6 is everywhere and wherever M.I.6's CIA is. or would we be realistic to say that? No, it would be realistic. Of course, M.I.6 does some stuff that doesn't tell CIA about, but the relationship is so airtight that I think both are involved in this. And the question is, you know, whether they can be pinned to the technology that is now available in Washington. It was quite a dramatic scene where the head of the military intelligence in Russia officially gave the technology to our army attache there in Moscow.

It's in Washington now. This will be a big earnest of whether Trump has been dragged along by the likes of Rubio and will continue to tell these lies that Putin is lying. I'll make this observation. You know, the media is they fly in the ornament, okay? Now, why do I say that? I wrote an ex, a tweet, as soon as this went down, and I said, you know, Putin is more credible than the CIA and certainly more credible than those who have won Pulitzer Prizes for the New York Times. Oh, I got 50,000 looks.

That's a majority of my lookers, okay? What would they say? How about government? How can you say that? How can you, how can you? So, the U.S. again, people have been pretty much indoctrinated into think Putin is the wrong guy. It's a terrible guy. And as Putin looks on at this, he says, look, I remember this from your first term, Mr. Trump. What are you going to do about these guys? You got the goods on him. And Trump said, oh, well, I have a pretty lawyer. And, well, she screwed up on Comey.

Comey's going to walk. Brennan. I don't know if we'll ever get Brennan. I mean, Putin looks at Trump as being very weak and just kind of narcissistic, throwing his weight around in the neighborhood, the only neighborhood where he can get away with it without worrying about Russia or China intervening militarily. How close do you think we are to attacking Iran? You know, Judge, I'm an outlier on that. My reasoning is that, well, that the U.S. and Israel both know, from the last time around, was it April, that Iran can destroy Israel, that they have the kind of hypersonic missiles that could destroy the rest of Israel. They've demonstrated they could do that, and there is no defense against them.

Okay? So if I'm plotting this strike, I got to realize that Israel might be obliterated to use a term that Trump uses. So is this not enough to give them pause? I suggest that reason would dictate. Yeah, they wouldn't want to, they wouldn't want to result in having Israel obliterated. So all this talk, I think it has to be taken note of, but I'm still skeptical. I still think that reason will prevail, and this time around, this time around, if Iran is attacked, Israel will be no more. Wow, that Iran will not hold back as it did last time. No, and this time Trump will not be able to bail Israel out. In other words, last time, remember, when the Iranians got their act together, and they started sending these missiles in there, and Trump said, time out, time out, we'll have a ceasefire. He saved their rear-ins, okay? This time there's not going to be time for that.

Now, maybe the strategists know a little bit more than I do about these things, but logic dictates that if even a crazy person like Netanyahu, unless he's in extremists, you know, he's not going to do this because, because he risks the destruction of his own country. Okay. Ray, thank you very much. Oh, tell us about Tony Aguilar. Yes, Anthony Aguilar has been awarded the Sam Adams Award for Integrity. He will be presented with that award here in Raleigh on Wednesday evening. It will be live streamed. And if you look at my website, Ray McGovern.com, the details will be there as to how

you can watch it live stream. Thank you, Judge. I want you to say that. Thank you. Thank you, Ray. And we'll, of course, have Tony on. I saw an interview he did over the weekend, which is profound. All the best, my friend, will look forward to seeing you on Friday with Larry Johnson. Thanks, Judge. Thank you. So Professor Sacks, who is due to be with us in about six minutes at 10.30 Eastern,

is, as we speak, testifying before the United Nations Security Council. He's 10,000 miles from New York, but he is testifying remotely. As soon as he finishes, he'll be with us, so keep an eye out, and Professor Sachs will pop up sometime, probably, in the next half hour or so. The rest of the day remains intact. Larry Johnson, of whom Ray and I just spoke, will be here at 11. and Anya Parenthold, our resident expert on Venezuela, Venezuela, will be here at 11. So keep an eye out because we'll pop up and Professor Sachs should be with us momentarily.

Judge Lepoetano for judging freedom. Freedom is a fragile thing, and it's never more than one. Thank you.