Judging Freedom - Ray McGovern: Who Can Save Gaza?

Episode Date: June 9, 2025

Ray McGovern: Who Can Save Gaza?See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

you Hi everyone, Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Monday, June 9th, 2025. Ray McGovern will be here with us in just a moment on just what is happening with the Gaza aid ship and what more do we know about the Ukraine drone attacks all over Russia. But first this. While the markets are giving us whiplash, have you seen the price of gold? It's soaring. In the past 12 months, gold has risen to more than $3,000 an ounce.

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It's time to see if gold is right for you. Call 800-511-4620. 800-511-4620 or go to learjudgenap.com and tell them your friend the judge sent you. Ray McGovern, a pleasure, my dear friend. Welcome here and thank you for accommodating my schedule. Thank you also for the many emails that you and I have had the happy experience exchanging the past three or four days.

After a week, what is your take? What is your analysis on the drone attacks on Russian military and civilian sites? Who orchestrated it? What was their purpose? Did they succeed? Well, it was a pinprick operation, but it has been overemphasized as an attack on the strategic triad of the Russian military.

That, you know, literally speaking, it is, but you know, it takes two to tango. The Russians have deliberately ignored that aspect of it. As a matter of fact, they distinguish between the sabotage of those bridges in Bryansk and Kursk and say, ah, sabotage, sabotage. And we have evidence of foreign country involvement. The inspector general is looking into that, will report directly to Putin, and they'll blame it on the British. Meanwhile, the Russians have chosen to believe Trump when he said, beats the hell out of me.

I didn't know a thing about it. Is that plausible? Of course it's plausible. I mean, this was prepared 18 months ago. Do you think Jake Sullivan was very careful to tell Mike Waltz, oh, look, this is going on? I don't think so. So whether or not Putin believes Trump's denials of foreign knowledge, the Russians have chosen to play this as truth. And their readout by Ushakov, who's always there, says that Trump again

emphasized, again emphasized, that he didn't know anything before this attack That's the way they play now one other thing. I'll just add there's a hole in Newsweek today Okay, it's the Levada poll that some have heard about at the end of May and it says that the Clawney rock okay, that's the main enemy The Russians always use that we are the main enemy. The Russians always use that. We are the main enemy, they are our main enemy. Okay, whoop, it's changed now. The share of respondents to this Lvovara poll

named the U.S. as the most hostile country toward Russia. It was down to 40%, down from 76% in 2024. Who's the most hostile? Ukraine? UK? Okay, now here's another thing, here's this. The Lovato Center polling shows that the antipathy toward the US featured in Western media is not shared by most Russians. This could be, this is Newsweek now, this could be a backdrop to a thawing of ties between the countries since President Donald Trump came into office. And there've been some things that Trump has done,

especially with respect to the bone crunching sanctions and so forth, that indicate that he's playing this game. And I've said very tiresome thing, I suppose, that the backdrop here is an overweening desire by both both leaders of both countries, Trump and Putin, to create a more recent relationship, which Trump was not able to do the first time. I think he's mad as hell at having been prevented from doing that. I think it's going to try his best to do that this time, whether he succeeds.

And that's another question, but that's where we stand in my view, uh, in analyzing what's gone before. What do you think was the, uh, MI6 purpose in orchestrating this? I mean, did they know they w they might run the risk of awakening a sleeping bear, so to speak? Or did they really think that this would have some beneficial military purpose to aid Ukraine? Not any military purpose. You know, MI6 is an animal unto itself. They like to blow up things. They don't care about the consequences. In my view, their view might have been, well, yeah, there are strategic bombers here, but that's incidental.

They're sitting ducks. I mean, they're the only sitting ducks we know of. Let's shoot them up. So, you know, it will be different if the Russians were making, as I said before, a federal case out of this. They're not. Now, it's a, it's a surety that Putin raised that when he talked to Trump. Did you know about this beforehand? And it's also clear that Trump would have said, oh no, I didn't know a thing about it. They never told me anything. Now, is that's true? I don't know if it's true or not, but there is this thing that is plausible deniability. Right. Where even if the CIA felt compelled to tell Trump or something big is going to

happen, they wouldn't tell him the details. So anyhow, the operative thing is Putin has chosen to believe that. And they're going back to talks and the, the readout of the, the bilateral talks on the telephone by Ushakov says, look, we are going ahead with high level talks at the summit level and all the other kind. That's what's different from the previous Biden government. Tell me about Russian Intel. If Donald Trump says, I didn't know anything about it, or the US didn't know anything about it, can Russian Intel

advise President Putin whether that is accurate or not? In other words, does Russian Intel know whether or not Trump truly didn't know about this? I don't think so. They're really good, and they have spies in Washington, but the people they talk to are very unlikely to know Exactly what Trump knew though, you know, I imagine that MI6 will be saying to Mr. Sommer, of course, they know them those CIA, you know, they they took tell the president everything Well, that's not the case. I know something about the CIA Yeah, let me reduce this. During the Bay of Pigs operation, when John Kennedy came in as president, guess what? The operations part of the CIA did not tell the analysis division what was going to

happen. And they didn't even ask for an assessment of well, is it true that Castro will will be deposed that there'll be a revolution there they didn't even ask him now Arthur Schlesinger was put on this problem by President Kennedy and he did a big memo which is available now He says look the main thing here is that Ray Klein head of of the assessments division, was not told word one by Alan Dulles and these other guys. And so it's quite possible that this kind of thing happens always in the British system. And we know there's lots of precedent for this. Eisenhower, U2, did he know that the U2 was going to fly over Russia just when he had a summit going

with Khrushchev? No, he didn't. Why was it that the CIA did this? Well, CIA like MI6 does its own thing, and unless it's told not to do it, well, yeah, it's all fun and games. Who's in charge of American foreign policy, Ray McGovern? I don't know, Judge. Trump is trying to be in charge.

Now, Putin has said many times that US foreign policy is conditioned mostly on internal domestic politics. So he knows that. And he knows the constraints that Trump has to labor in. Despite that, he sees Trump as his last white hope, you know, his last chance. There's a window of opportunity here. Before somebody shoots Trump or shoots Putin, let's see if we can have a deal and at least put Ukraine aside because there are bigger fish to fry. Now, bigger fish, as I've said several times, is a detente or a

rapprochement between Russia and the US. That's the ideal and that's the overweening desire on the part of both people. Trump doesn't want to prolong war, neither does Putin, and between them, with the help of the Chinese and the Iranians and all those kind of people, you know, Trump is falling in with the more logical equities here, saying, look, you know, Ukraine can't survive without our hope, without our help. I'm not going to give him any more help, even though, you know, there's a trickling of military aid going in. And I'm going to just work this out with Puchin. He's in no hurry. He's

winning. We'll go back to Istanbul. We'll talk some more on the technicalities. Meanwhile, the exchange of prisoners, those young kids kidnapped out of the nightclubs in Kiev are being let go now if they're under 25. The body, 8,000 frozen Ukrainian soldiers. And they didn under 25, the body 8,000 frozen Ukrainian soldiers that they didn't get, well, they agreed to give them back, but apparently the Ukrainian don't want them. My God. So it's a circus. Is there 8,000 frozen dead bodies? Yeah, right. That was part of the agreement in Istanbul. If this was orchestrated in part by Jake Sullivan and that crew, wouldn't Trump be furious that his people didn't know about it? He should be, you know?

There are people in the bowels of the CIA that knew. Now, if John Ratcliffe didn't ferret them out, we'll have somebody who knows which end is up go down into those bowels. It's all right, guys, fess up. You're gonna be fired if you don't fess up because we've got the evidence, but they have the evidence or not.

Yeah, I think Ratcliffe really is shown to be inept here. I'll see Gabbard to a degree as well. That is, if as I assume they did not know, and that's a fair assumption. And in any case, as I keep saying, Putin has chosen to believe that, or at least to believe that overtly. And he's been very careful, again,

to disassociate the attacks on the airfields from the terrorists, like I repeat, terrorist attacks on those bridges that have all the earmarks of British intelligence, the bridges in Bryansk and Kursk, and then another attempt on that big bridge in Kursk. You know, it's going to be an anti-terrorist war from here on in, and that puts a certain liability on people like Zelensky himself and Budanov and all those people that orchestrated these things. They may want to get new life

insurance. Because once the Russians transform this military process from a special military operation to an anti-terrorist operation, the leadership of Ukraine is fair game under Russian law and procedures. Do I have that right? That's right. Now, whether Putin will authorize that or not, I'd suggest he probably won't. He doesn't have to. Again, Russia is winning. No question about that. Do you think that Trump fears Lindsey Graham and company trying to force his hand by enacting legislation by a veto-proof majority that would impose secondary sanctions, that is sanctions on the people that do business with Russia. It would be crazy, wouldn't it? I mean, it would be crazy.

Don't they have any economists there? I mean, Janet Yellen was no good, but my God, didn't they find somebody better? In other words, this is totally unrealistic. And, you know, Lindsey Graham is blowing smoke. Now, the latest hopeful things, Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg, that Trump has already called in his friends in Congress and said, look, if you want to put, if you want to pass something this stupid, well, give me veto power of it or have in the legislation itself that this is at a referendum, the president and president has to approve it. I can buy that, that's a nice little threat. But don't try to force me because you say 80%, forget about it.

I have enough influence to prevent a veto-proof majority. a veto-proof majority. Let's transition to Gaza, Ray. What is your understanding of the latest events on the ship on which Greta Thunberg and others were present as they were attempting to deliver aid to the starving people in Gaza? Well, I just heard from Anne Rice, who is the person on this. It turns out she wasn't on the boat, but she's doing the public relations thing here.

And she tells me that all those passengers that they were rammed last night, that they were helicoptered and so forth, and they were taken onto an Israeli naval ship. They are en route now, if passed as precedent, to Ashdod, the Israeli port, where they let them off, they put them in jail for a couple of days and then they let them go back to their home countries. Now, good news is violence was minimal, apparently. Bad news, of course, is that the Israelis would not even let in a sailboat filled to the gills with medical and other food supplies. And what does that say? You know, what the Israelis have said in their own defense is, well, if we let this one in, all kinds of flotillas will come in there and I bring this food,

well, hello, that means you really wanna exterminate. You really wanna starve these people dead. Is that right? Of course it's right. That's what they're out for. And that was what this flotilla, to their credit, was trying to demonstrate. Look, if they won't let us in, a sailboat,

what kind of embargo is this? It's been going on not just since October 7th, but for what, since 2009 for God's sake. Blockade, embargo, people sick, can't get treatment, people starving to death. I mean, nothing is worse than that. The eras of the freedom flotilla ship intercepted by the Israeli military near

Gaza. Yeah, those photos were the last thing we saw before Kama was broken off and they were rammed by by the Israelis and I assume either invited or forced to get onto the Israeli naval ship. I imagine they should reach port in Ashdod probably within the hour and if passed as precedent they'll be jail as I said before and then sent to their home countries Depending what kind of passport they have I? Regret that there were no Americans on that ship. I didn't know that before

Fallen's here maybe this side aside from Donald Trump picking up a phone as you and Larry and Max Blumenthal and Ray and Scott Ritter and Colonel McGregor have argued and saying enough is enough, baby. Who or what? Who or what can save Gaza? Just us. It's up to us. There never has been anything other than us. Now, if this doesn't create appropriate outrage, anger on the part of the American people, I'm not going to give up on the American people, but it would certainly be a sign. And I would remind you, Judge, you know this already because you have studied Thomas Aquinas

But he was very big on the virtue of anger Okay, yes Why because he wrote about virtue and there was no word in Latin for the virtue of anger So he went back to John Chrysostom of the early church and he said he or she who is not angry when there is just cause for anger sins, because anger, respite, bonum justitie. Anger looks to the good of justice. If you can live amid injustice without anger, you are doing it wrong folks, you are sinning.

I take some consolation and realize it's okay to be angry. You know, for Irish they give you a couple days more than normal people, but it's not only okay to be angry, it's a virtue for God's sake. So let's be virtuous, get out there and stop this. Will any other country intercede? I mean, President Erdogan of Turkey condemned the ramming and stopping and kidnapping of everybody on the boat. But that's just words. He didn't do anything about it. It is.

The year before we embarked on the US boat to Gaza, 2011, and right with me then, that 2010, a great big Turks ship for the Mavi Mamara was raided by Israeli commendos because they were going to give food supplies to Gaza. Nine, I think, people were killed, including an American citizen. And what did the American government do? Zippo. And I would point out in this connection that it was exactly, well, exactly this date,

well, June 8th, 1967, when the Israelis learned they could get away with murder, literally, to includes the US Navy. They attacked the USS Liberty and International Waters killed 34 seam, and wounded 171 others. That was what, 53 years ago? I think I did the math earlier. Well, you know, when you learn you can get away with murder and that the US government will cover it up and have the Navy cooperate in covering it up, well, that's as clear a manifestation as you can get

that the Israelis learned very early on that they could get away with murder. And that's what they're doing to a whole populace now. And that's called genocide. This is when the president of the United States himself, LBJ, ordered jets that had been dispatched to defend the Liberty to turn around. That's right, Judge.

You know, what happened was the commander of part of the 6th Fleet out there in the Mediterranean sent two aircraft carriers with their planes aloft to do battle with whoever was attacking his ship, the USS Liberty. Now a very imaginative seaman on the Liberty got permission from Captain McConaugle to fix the only antenna that wasn't working and that therefore the Israelis had not destroyed and sent out an SOS. Now as soon as the SOS went out, the Israelis, of course, intercepted it and got the hell out of Dodge.

Meanwhile, those planes were en route and Geis, I think was Admiral Geis. He got a call from McNamara, Secretary of Defense. You call those planes back. We don't want you to do anything with respect to the liberty. Geis, sir, sorry, uh, I can't, my, my men, my ship is being attacked. I can't take that order. I have to speak to your supervisor. Guess what? LBJ is right, right at the McNamara's side. He gets on here now. Oh, guys, my order to you is we don't wanna embarrass our Israel allies, so you call those planes back,

you call them back now or else. Guys call them back. Did he get promoted? You don't question the president or the secretary of defense, they get promoted. But he did his job, he followed orders in the final analysis The worst thing of course judge was this is all covered up

Yeah, the Liberty survivors met just this past weekend in Norfolk. I usually go I couldn't go this year But there are a few left and if you want to know about PTSD Have lunch with these guys. Yeah, they were told not to tell their wives, not to even speak to each other about what had happened. That's gone by the board now, but my God, most of them, most of the other ones besides the 34 already dead, have passed away by now. Chris is going to cut the clip of your imitation of LBJ's voice. It's one of the best I've ever heard, Ray. I know we're talking about very, very serious things, but your imitation of that miserable old bastard was one of the best I ever heard. Thank you very much, as always,

for your time. Thank you for letting me go all over the place on all of these questions deeply appreciated We'll see what Larry at the end of the week I'm not sure when or where because you know, he's in Moscow But we'll pin him down at a time that works for you Ray McGovern. Okay. Thank you, Josh Sure. All the best my dear friend. Mm-hmm And coming up later today at 2 o'clock this afternoon on all of this, Aaron Maté and at 4 30 live, 4 30 this afternoon, live from Moscow, Larry Johnson, Judge Napolitano for Judging Freedom. MUSIC