Judging Freedom - Ray McGovern : Who Speaks for US and for Russia?

Episode Date: November 24, 2025

Ray McGovern : Who Speaks for US and for Russia?See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Thank you. Hi, everyone, Judge Andrew Napolitano here for judging freedom. Today is Monday, November 24th, 2025. Ray McGovern, we'll be here with this in just a moment. What are the origins of the 28-point plan? And why now? But first this. History tells us every market eventually falls. Currencies collapse.

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Gold. I've set it on my show for years. Gold survives collapse. central bankers know this and billionaires know it that's why they're buying more is it too late to buy or is it just the right time call my friends at lear capital to find out ask questions get the free information there's no pressure and that's why i buy my gold and silver from lear and right now you can get up to twenty thousand dollars in bonus medals with a qualified purchase call 800 511 or go to Learjudgeonnap.com today. Ray McGovern, welcome here, my dear friend. I want to dive deeply into the 28-point plan. I don't know if it's a subterfuge to keep people's eyes off of the Israelis attacking

Lebanon and the United States about to attack Venezuela. We'll get to that eventually. But do we know the origins of the 28-point plan? Who speaks for Russia? Who speaks for the United States? Is it these two billionaire buddies of Trump and Putin? No. Putin's personal representative and the person of Kiril Dmitriev blew off to Florida to talk with Steve Whitkoff for three days at the end of October. Therein lies the solution. We know from pretty reliable sources that Ukrainian National Security Council chief Umarev was also there for a while.

So they whittled this thing together in a kind of a talking points sort of way. It's just, you know, parts of it are self-contradictory, inconsistent. It's very, very unfinished, but the big thing is that Trump is making a big thing of it. And Putin is playing along. Now, let me introduce a extraneous factor here. First of all, I agree with those, including Alistair, who say that in mid-October, Trump finally realized that he had been diddled, that he had been led down the Gordon path by the likes of Kellogg and perhaps Rubio and other hardliners within the White House

and State Department. So mid-October is big. After that came not only the collapse of Ukrainian forces on the front line, but also the brazing of corruption charges, very convenient to get Zelensky a little bit scared. Here's my chronology. Here's the extraneous factor. When do the nominations the Nobel Peace Prize begin for 2026? It says, I looked it up, mid-October. Well, let's say that's October 15th.

So I did a little chronology here. Oh, well, okay, October 15th, what happened on the 16th? Oh, well, Trump announced that we're going to have an assignment. It'll be a Budapest, and we're going to get to a final solution with the green prices at the 16th. Okay, 17th. So let's get comes to the White House, and Trump says, no, but think about those. missiles, those missiles that you've been trying to get, we're not going to give them to you, the 17th, okay?

Whoa, there was a big backlash, okay? So Trump had to do a little dancing and took a lot of flak. So what do we have on the 22nd? We have the imposition of really tough, really tough sanctions on Rosneft and Luke Oil, the two big Russian oil companies. Okay, that's the 22nd. But the Russians like to say, Adnaka, but what happens on the 23rd, the day after the imposition of these terrible sanctions, which even Scott Besson doesn't place any store by, but that's another thing. What happened on the next day?

Oh, Kilil, Dimitriyev is sent by Pugin to Florida to talk to Witkoff, to talk to Umerov when he shows up. chisel this thing together. It's more of the nature of talking points. The big deal is that Putin said, well, yeah, let's consider that that could be a basis for the final settlement. That's really interesting. So what do I see here? I see that Trump, I mean, I, Blanche, when I hear myself say this, he's partially motivated by wanting to have a Nobel Peace Prize. And if it gets maybe something going by Thanksgiving and maybe even enough going for a ceasefire by Christmas, oh my God, that's, well, the nominations close on January, January 31st. Okay. Now, people might think that's a little ridiculous. Two months ago, I would have thought so, but look at what Trump has said about the Nobel priest. So I think what Trump is doing here is giving the Europeans, getting them out of the flow of things.

Europeans are very scared, but they're powerless. And that's why I differ with many of my colleagues. The Europeans have no troops. They have no money. They have no leverage. Okay. The leverage is not with the Europeans. So what leverage does Trump have?

Well, not much. but I think Trump understands that Putin would rather have a negotiated settlement of some kind based on current realities. So he's playing on that. That's very, very little leverage. And you could see that in the points that are being discussed. You could see that in Trump saying today this morning, wow, this is going to be great. We're well on our way.

What exactly to say, oh, yeah, it's time for Europe to go alone. Well, that's what the guardian is saying. Here's Trump. Big progress is being made in the peace negotiations between Ukraine and Russia. And, of course, we have Rubio and even Kellogg singing the same song over the weekend. So what do I foresee? I see some real negotiations. Russia's not going to give up much because it doesn't have to. It's adopting this nonchalant dismissive. Okay, we're like negotiations.

We're always open to that. But, you know, we're just to assume go ahead and finish the damn thing off with a special military operations. Take a listen to President Putin, excuse me, Zelensky, President Zelensky, a gloomy President Zelenskyy, who pretty much is saying, look, I have to choose between the indignity of giving up all this land that I believe is part of Ukraine and the loss of my most valuable partner of the United States. Chris, cut number three. This is one of the most difficult moments in our history. The pressure on Ukraine is now at its most intense.

Ukraine may now face a very difficult choice, either the loss of dignity or the risk of losing a key partner, or 28 difficult points, or an extremely harsh winter. The most difficult and further risk are life without freedom, without dignity, without justice, and believing someone who has already attacked us twice. And believing someone who was already attacked us twice. I guess he's forgotten about Minsk I and Minsk 2 and that subterfuge. Why would Putin trust any negotiation that the Europeans participated in?

He wouldn't. He wouldn't, and that's why they're excluded. That's why Trump has rolled them out. Now, the Europeans have described as being really enraged at this, but they have no leverage. They said before they're no money. They have no arms. They have nothing without the United States. That's the all-encompassing reality for me.

What do you think Zelensky will do? Doesn't he risk not only the loss of his presidency, but maybe the loss of his life? if he concedes to this? I think it's a, well, I think it's really a case of Zelensky will stay there as long as the U.S. and Britain think he can be useful. There's no real outside person that can take us place right now. Part of these 28 points are elections in Ukraine and if so far. fact, though, Zelensky would be out. So I see the U.S. and Britain and the others, no, U.S. at least, saying, look, Zalensi can hang around as long as he does what he's told. Now, as I say before,

Zelensky is going to have to do what he's told. Now, if he finds that, what do you call it, if that's a dignity thing, well, all right. I mean, if he accepts what's going on here, as he will have to, well, you know, he's got a dignity problem, but he also, has a problem if he doesn't accept it. Now, he doesn't accept it. Well, you know, he could only be really, really dumb not to accept it. Why? Because the Europeans have no leverage.

They have no troops. They have no money. So if the Europeans can persuade a dumb Zelensky, look, you know, hang in there, we'll support you for as long as it takes now that the U.S. is out of there. He's really dumber than I thought he was. think he will do that. I think he'll accept that. He sort of made some motions in that regard. And his people, Umair, for example, have been in on this. So it's not like it came as a total surprise to the Ukrainians. The limitation of the Ukrainian troops to 600,000, that's 10 times

the number that was agreed to in Istanbul in 2022 before Joe Biden and Boris Johnson and interfered with it. Putin will never go along with that and where they get 600,000 troops, to be honest. Well, that would be an interesting point if this was a proposal. This is just a bunch of talking points. The Russian word for plan also means

sort of outline, outline for discussion. So, you know, to look at these specific provisions, yes, 600,000, that's negotiable. They'll be at less than half of that at the final end of this thing. But the idea is that Trump feels some real pressure to get something done quick by the end of the year. Like by Thanksgiving. What will they get by Thanksgiving? My God, it looks like Rubio and even Kellogg are saying,

oh, we're going to get something maybe Thursday, Friday, maybe Monday of next week. Could that be? It could be Russian sign on to an umbrella sort of thing saying, yeah, we're going to discuss this, but one of our conditions continues to be no Ukraine and NATO. And that's understood by both sides. So if they can announce a ceasefire, possibly by the end of the year or by Christmas, oh, wouldn't that be nice, Thanksgiving and then Christmas, then Trump may feel he's on his way to getting a Nobel Peace Prize. Again, I think you're probably unto something with respect to the president's true motivation to him.

To him, it's the peace prize. The fact that peace will come about is secondary, but I mean, almost who cares what his thoughts are as long as it brings about peace. I don't see the Russians signing a ceasefire. They've said a hundred times they won't. They'll sign a peace agreement that gives them what they want. They want to get rid of the Nazi ideology. I don't know how you get rid of an ideology. They want no NATO.

They want their land back. Well, they'll get the land back and they'll probably get no NATO, but they're not going to get everything they want, are they? How do you get rid of an ideology, Ray? The judges have all the leverage here. They're winning on the battlefield. Zelensky is being discredited mostly by, I think, U.S. intelligence services who are embedded in those investigatory.

bodies. I mean, everyone around him is charged with utter corruption. It defies, it beggars belief that Zelensky stands as pure as Caesar's wife, you know. So, in other words, they got them where they want them. Okay. Now, the Russians are aware of all this, and I think they're aware. Here in mind, talks are going on, Sabrosa. There are other channels. There are all kinds of channels Whitkoff and Dmitryov, Witkoff, and other people like Ushokov, directly under Putin. So these things go on, and I'm sure, I'm not sure, but I speculate that when Russia, when Trump felt this pressure after he flagrantly said, Tomahawk missiles, I forgot about it,

okay? Well, he felt a lot of pressure. And I said, oh, my God, I better do something. And then that's when he put on these sanctions on the 20 seconds. So just days later. And I'm sure, Sabrosi was saying, now, look, we got to do this. I got to, I got to handle Kellogg and a company. But bear in mind, we're going to work this out.

And sure, the next thing you know, the next day, Dimitrius leaves for Florida and spends three days working out this plan with not Rubio, but with the. Who is the de facto? Secretary of State of the United States. Is it Marco Rubio? Is it Steve Whitcroft? Is it Jared Kushner? It's a fellow named Donald Trump.

And the State Department is really truth social. I mean, I never thought I'd see this day, but, you know, official pronouncements come out from truth social. Some of them with block letters, so you take a really, take attention to that. But, you know, Rubio does what he's told. Now, he made a 180, okay? Here he is yesterday in Geneva, say, oh, this is the cat's pajamas. We never made so much progress. Well, two weeks ago, he was saying, all those damn Russians, you know, they invaded. And we have to make sure that they don't succeed in what they're doing. Look with them, blah, blah, blah.

So Rubio is malleable. He wants to stay, titular at least, Secretary of State. and, by the way, National Security Advisor, where he's in position to be a kind of a blockage before for any credible intelligence getting to the president. Now, the end is near. Trump has seen that he's been deceived by the likes of Kellogg and Rubio to an extent. When Rubio talked to Lavrov shortly after,

Trump said, hey, let's do Budapest. Well, what came in that? Well, Avrov's a diplomat. He's not going to say anything derogatory, but Rubio apparently blew it. Because the next thing you know, Dimitriath is going to talk with Whitkoff. So when you need talks with Whitkoff, who understands what's up, okay, and who has the entree not only to Trump, but to Putin. What does he met with him six or seven times already? Last time for four or five hours.

So when you ask me who's Secretary of State is, it's Trump. And Trump relies on whoever he needs to rely on, whether it's to appease Lindsay Graham, or whether it's to actually work real things out between Whitkoff and whomever Putin appoints, whether it's Ushakov or whether it's Dmitriev. The Dmitriyev, by the way, is the economic financial czar in the Russian government. And, you know, he's the one that talks about this tunnel under the Bering Strait, talks about the magnificent economic opportunity to exist for U.S.-Russian relations. Well, that's exaggerated, but it's there.

And Trump and Wittkoff and these kinds of get, well, you know, that would really help. And why should we feel ourselves manacled by the Europeans and not pursue these opportunities? So I think that's all in the background. Here's President Putin in military garb yesterday. Chris cut number two. These people stay here, Mashi sitting on their golden pots, hardly think about their country's fate or the fate of its people.

Ordinary people of Ukraine. The officer corps. And even more so, the ordinary soldiers, they don't have time for such things. But you and I have our own task. and our own goals to achieve. The most important of these is, without a doubt, the achievement of the goals of the special military operation

and the resolution of the tasks that our fatherland and the people of Russia placed before us. The people of Russia are counting on us, they are counting on you, and they expect the results that our country truly needs. Let's get to work. Wow, in military garb, The people of Russia are counting on us.

They are counting on you and they expect the results that our country truly needs. He's talking about the military acquisition of real estate and the expulsion of NATO and the other goals that he's been consistently pressing for the past two and a half years. Yeah, this is the de facto situation, Judge. The facts on the ground is what the Russians keep talking about. Right. And when Putin, whether he feigns this or whether he's serious, when he adopts this nonchalant thing, I say, look, we've always been open for negotiations.

But if this doesn't work out, we're just as happy pursuing the special military operation until its final end. And we could do that, and we will. Now, my take on that is that's feigned. They really want something in the nature of a negotiated session. settlement, which gets the U.S. to guarantee that the Ukrainians won't do the same thing they did under Biden, okay? That's clear to me. So Putin prefers that. Trump wants that. You've got a coalition, you've got a coalescing of views here. And I am hopeful that maybe not by Thanksgiving, But by the end of the year, some progress has been made.

And by January 31st, the outer limit of nominations for the Nobel Peace Prize, that Trump will have something to sing about and say, hey, look, well, Gaza didn't work at all that well. But, hey, how about this year? How about Ukraine? So I'm thinking of Sergei Lavrov saying to Vladimir Putin. But what's to guarantee that a president, Lindsey Graham, or a president, J.D. Vance, or a president Marco Rubio, wouldn't rearm Ukraine in five or ten years, just like President Trump did during his first term. Well, no, wait a second.

Trump, all they gave them were some, we used to call bazookas, some anti-tank weapons. He didn't arm. It was Biden. that armed Ukraine. So, you know, the facts on the ground speak for themselves. The Russians have won, Ukrainians have lost. J.D. Vance has said, that's it for us. We're out of it.

Ukraine is not anymore our problem. The Europeans are screaming like hell because their whole political positions, these clowns, these political haves, these political hacks that bubble to the top in Germany, mouths in UK, Stama, in France, Macon. Those people are going to lose power. And, you know, I have to say this,

their priorities to stay in power. So will they have any leverage? That's the big question. I don't think the Europeans have any leverage anymore. I think they've used it all up. And I think that Putin, that Trump has made it very clear, look, we're not even going to talk to you until this thing is over. Make all the suggestions you want. You've got nothing.

You've got no leverage. I have very little leverage, says Trump. But I have some. Putin wants a deal. And we're going to get that deal sooner rather than later. Ray, McGovern, thank you very much, my dear friend. I think we're going to get a. Intelligence Community Roundtable in by the end of the week.

I don't know when or I don't know how because it's Thanksgiving week, but we'll make it happen, and I'll look forward to seeing you then. All the best, my friend. Thanks, Judge. Thank you. Coming up at 11.30 this morning, Larry Johnson, and this afternoon, Professor Jeffrey Sachs. Johnson and Paul Tano for judging freedom.

Thank you.