Judging Freedom - [SPECIAL] - Weapon of The Assassin: Larry Johnson on the Ballistics

Episode Date: September 12, 2025

[SPECIAL] - Weapon of The Assassin: Larry Johnson on the BallisticsSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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That's an equivalent to $15 a month. Limited time new customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited. plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. Hi, everyone, Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Welcome to this special edition on Assassination Ballistics with our dear friend and regular collaborator, Larry Johnson. Larry, we found you at the Charlotte Airport. We deeply appreciate your finding the quietest corner you can in the, I'm sure, first-class lounge.

in chatting with us on this. Larry, what do we know about a weapon that was used to murder Charlie Kirk? Well, it's a World War II era of weapon, updated, obviously, called a Mouser. It shoots a round of ammunition called a 30-06, 30-06. That's the same round of ammunition that U.S. soldiers use is firing the M-1 Garan. in World War II. Anybody that's ever watched Band of Brothers, for example, they live that distinct thing when the clip, and the M1 Grand actually has a clip, not a magazine, but when that clip fires out. So it's around, it's about the size, you know, of a normal,

a normal man's hand about the size of your ring finger, three inches. So it's, it's It's a very powerful round, and it's used, you know, it's used commonly today for hunting, hunting big game, because it will take down a large animal. And, you know, a piece of Charlie Kirk hitting him in the neck, it was an immediate depth of him. Chris, can you put up full screen one? I assume you can see this from where you are, Larry. Is this a fair? This is not the weapon, but it is a weapon, as you've discussed.

is this a fair depiction of it yes yeah you see it's a bolt action which means it can you chamber you have to mechanically chamber around put around into the chamber suit of fire these you know these rifles even with iron sites as opposed to that optic you know the you well the telescope that's on top of the rifle um they're very accurate uh you know i've seen with i i have seen with i i have have an M1 grand myself and I've been able to shoot accurately out to 300 yards even with my old eyes. So, but in this case, with an optic like that and firing at 200 yards, you might, you know, with bullets travel over distance, they drop because of the curvature of the earth and gravity. So if this person is aiming at the middle of Charlie's head, the fact that it fell down to the neck, you know, would make sense.

So, but it's just, it's a very, it's a lethal round. Chris, can you put up the full screen of the weapon again? I'm going to pretend I'm an FBI agent and ask a question, the answer to which is rather obvious, but just to set the stage for a next series. questions. This is not collapsible, is it? Well, yeah, no, you can break it down actually. You can there's a way to disassemble so that you can

get the barrel out. The barrel of the gun rests on what's called the receiver. And then you've got the staff. So, yeah, you can actually you can reduce it, get it broken down where it could be into a backpack. It wouldn't be quickly, you know,

you wouldn't sort of reassemble it a minute or two. But if you took the time, you can get it reassembled. How big or bulky is it when it's disassembled, and how long is it when it's fully assembled? I don't, again, without knowing the particular rifle, I don't know the full length, but looking at the backpack that he was fairing, it very well could have fit in that backpack. What kind of skill is necessary to use this, Larry? what kind of training, preparation, or familiarity with the weapon?

I mean, could you teach me to use this weapon in an hour, or would it take a couple of days of practice? Well, no, I could teach you to shoot it in 15, 20 minutes, but in his case, he clearly had some frame, because with the rifles and with an optic, you have to do what's called to zero the weapon. Well, that means that when you look through the optics, you want to make sure that the bullet hits where the optic where the cloths hairs are lined up. And so normally you go to a range.

And in this case, you would shoot at maybe 50 to 100 yards to try to get that zero. And there are ways on the optic itself, you can make adjustments for what's called elevation up and down and adjustments for windage, right? the left. And once you get it zeroed in, then you can be pretty confident that, you know, you know it roughly 200 yards, what distance you're going to be shooting. So the zeroing in process, does it occur at the thing while he's looking through the scope at Charlie or does it occur? No, no, no. This would have been done a day, two, three days before. And the other thing, it means he had pre you know he had pre scouted this position because it's probably gone up there with a range finder so that you could measure calculate the distance from the roof to be a spot

where you think that charlie kirk would be and then you know exactly this is rough much you know more or less what distance you need to be zero at so this means number's pre-planning now how did he know exactly where Charlie Perth was, you know, going to be seated. You know, maybe the turning point organization was pretty sloppy with how they released information. You know, you could see where Charlie was going to be and how to line up. I mean, it's just horrific. But this was not a spur of the moment effort by this guy to just grab his gun, run out there

and fire off the stop. This was pre-planned, and it took some scouting ahead of time, a day or two ahead of time. So, you know, he had to make sure, verify that he had a way to get to the book. He had to make sure he had a way to carry the firearm, the rifle, in his bag, and be able to also get it reassessment. Is it likely, now I'm asking me to get into his head? The killer said that he did this on his own or was a patsy? No, no, I don't think he's a patsy.

You know, we don't know enough about his motivations yet. You know, on paper, he was an intellectually smart person. But to get this twisted where you feel compelled to kill somebody, particularly like Charlie Kirk. I don't begin to understand the hate directed at him. Charlie Kirk was a 31 year. You and I both can barely remember what it's like to be 31 and how our views and our ideas have evolved over time.

And what we witnessed with Charlie Kirk in his short career is he was evolving in his views. He wasn't a rigid idiologue. unwilling to entertain change. You know, some have claimed that he was just a blind Zionist. That's absolutely not true. He hosted a, he hosted a debate between comedian Dave Smith and this reporter, Josh Hammer, Dave Smith is a, he's very much outspoken against what the Zionists are doing.

Now, if Charlie Kirk was some hardcore Zionist, he never would have given a platform to Dave Smith. But it was just the opposite. And then actually the day before Charlie was killed, he was on with Ben Shapiro and saying, hey, look, there's a need to really question what Israel's doing. So he was starting to ask questions. Yeah, yeah. He certainly was beginning to come around in a way that Mossad would not have been happy about with the extent and nature of his followers. Well, Judge, let me just interrupt. If you saw that debate with Dave Smith, 75, at least I'd say 66% to 75% of that audience,

the young audience was supporting Dave Smith's position. Well, Dave is an extraordinary articulator of the views that you and I in this program advances on war and peace. The 30-0.6, does it shoot straight at 200 yards? Yeah, yeah, yeah. In fact, it's almost level, it's almost level at that distance. So does that mean that the killer was aiming for Charlie's throat, or was he aiming for the head? You know, at that distance, again, I don't know what kind of scope he had. I've been, you know, I've got a friend who's got a shortly larger rifle or more expensive rifle, 6.5. 56.5 Creedmoor and we were shooting just at 25 yards but he had this it was a 15,000 dollar

life and with that i was able to put three bullets through the same hole at 25 yards so i mean you couldn't all i can see was one bullet what was the distance what was the distance between the killer and and charlie kirk it's estimated at 200 yards so at that distance very all i had to do was in center of the head and even if there was a deviation or drop of maybe three or four inches you still would have hit a vital a vital organ a next shot with with a round like that it's traveling with i think the muscle velocity is in excess of 2 400 feet per second i mean it's some you know it's horrific well this this is why general george patten called the m1 grand the best the best weapon in the world

because he said it won us World War II at least for the U.S. forces of Europe. It is it's a deadly round. It hits you. It's going to fall significant damage. Was the shooter

in a prone position or was he upright or do we not know that? If he was smart, he would have been in the prone position. If you're standing, or kneeling or even in what's called a seated position. That's where, you know, imagine you're sitting, sitting doing meditation with your legs crossed.

You know, that's the seated position. So prone is far more stable. And in that position, it would be a fairly easy shot to make. Again, I can't emphasize enough that he had some prior training. This was not his first time handling this. rifles. And there were a number of things he had to do before he arrived at that site to know that he had the rifle properly zeroed in so that he could hit what he was aiming at, which means he would have had to know the distance, among other things. And he would have had to have known

with a reasonable degree of a probability where Charlie was going to be at the time of the kill shot. Right. Yeah, exactly. Now, these things. Two photographs were each taken at the same time. The one on the left is from a video camera showing a silhouette of the killer. And the one on the right is obviously Charlie. These are each a few seconds before the kill. And now it looks like he's prone, doesn't it? Yeah, no, he's prone.

He's in a prone position. And it looks like there's an edge, a raised edge on the roof. So that would have given him something that he could rest the gun on. to improve the stability of, you know, when you sight in. Because everybody, when you're shooting a firearm, everybody has what's called a natural arc of movement. That means as you breathe, as the blood pumps to your veins, you're going to get a little bit of movement, even looking through an optic like that. And the problem with slight movements is the greater the distance, the greater the deviation of the bullet.

So, you know, he was, he wasn't, you know, some have suggested that he was a trained sniper, no. But he had enough training and shooting with that rifle. And apparently his father is in law enforcement. So, you know, you know, very much could have been, you know, grown up shooting, you know, starting at the age of 12 or 13, you know, being allowed to shoot a rifle like that. Larry would engraving messages on the side of a shell affect its movement or accuracy? No. All it's going to do is when you fire, when the firing pin hits the primer, that's a little explosive that's in the bottom of the cartridge, it ignites the gunpowder, and then the gunpowder, the explosion from the gunpowder propels the bullet out of the front of the cartridge. So anything that you inscribe on the side of the cartridge, it stays in the gun or it's going to be ejected when you pull the bolt back.

So the messages that we've seen, these are on the shells expelled by the rifle. These are not on the bullet that carried into Charlie's body. Correct. Charlie had a security staff there of a half dozen people standing in front of him eyeing the crowd. I'm sorry to have to ask this. Shouldn't they have had binoculars looking at rooftops? Yeah, I don't know why they weren't clearing the rules.

I mean, that's, you know, if these guys are trained professionals, they should have had coverage on the rules, particularly knowing that you've had death threats. case charlie consistently and you know rich i can't emphasize enough about charlie the thing was you may not have liked his message but he was always debating in an adult human form he wasn't yelling he wasn't insulting you know i've been insults okay i i couldn't take the high road like people. But he was always engaging people in honest, genuine debate. He wasn't, you know, calling him a fat cow, or suggesting, you know, the mother had an adequate genetic material.

You know, he always kept it high road in substance. And so to want to kill somebody for that, that's out there. Chris, do you have, do we have a photo that rather famous? photo of him flipping red caps before he started. No, we don't. Okay, well, in that photo, you can see two or three of these security guys. They're dressed in security garb, not police garb, but you can tell they're security guys. Right. They have the I have things in their ears that we wear when we're on set and that security people wear so they can communicate with each other. They have sunglasses on they have their hands either fold that are on their waist but they're not looking at rooftops yeah yeah they're looking into the immediate crowd and again that's that was a tremendous

you know tragic oversight again i don't as part of their security plan in my view that if you're going outside and being prepared you have to you have to assess what is what's the security perimeter are there any possible avenues of attack and to be in that basically in that shooting bullet that's what it was anybody could get up on that roof and then have a direct site why don't you put somebody you know and again we're doing all right there's the photo look you see to charlie's right behind the hand of one of the viewers that's a security guy with the blue polo shirt and the shades There's another security guy about off to Charlie's left. He's got a beard and he's got his sunglasses up on his cap.

They're looking at the people to whom he's throwing those caps. They're not looking where the killer is. All right. Hindsight is perfect. I grant that. I just wonder how they could have been so sloppy. Isn't this base? Security 101, Larry, to look at the rooftops?

Yeah, absolutely. And, but hey, we saw Secret Service screw that up in July of 2024 on July 13th. With Donald Trump, yes. They failed to ensure that the roofs were clear and that nobody could operate a firearm. How long would it have taken him to assemble, the weapon. Let's just say he had it disassembled in his backpack and he carried a backpack up that ladder and he got to the position on the roof. How long would it take him to assemble it that no one would have seen him? And he can't assemble it while he's prone. He's got to be standing or at least

on his knees. Well, he could have assembled it back in his stairwell. It would have five minutes max. To assemble the weapons? Yes. So he assembled a stairwell. Once you assemble it. Once you assemble it, do you need to test it or once you assemble it, it's ready to go? Because it appears that he only fired one round, the fatal round. Yeah, no, you work the action, test the trigger. You can press the trigger left, you've cocked it. You know, when you raise the bolt, pull it back, and then move it forward, then it's top, and then you can press the trigger and do what's called dry firing.

That'll make it go wrong. what is the body Chris can you put the weapon up again what is the body it looks like it's wood is it made of wood yeah some I suspect it was wood on the again if it's a mouser so the part that's from the you see the trigger the part of the bear of the receiver the that's underneath that's called the receiver and then in the part behind the trigger is called the soft and the comb is you know where the hand was so again from that rifle to be able to recover DNA because he would have you know he would have how heavy how heavy is the rifle larry when it's about probably six eight pounds

it's not terribly heavy got it got it well thank you for this look i know you're traveling and i really appreciate your stopping in the airport to address this the the audience and i are a profound interest in this it's a monumental tragedy, whatever you thought of Charlie's political message or Charlie the person, it's an assault on the quintessential American value, which is the right to stand in a public square and express your opinion, no matter how controversial it may be. We don't use violence to redress that, and I hope this is not the beginning of something awful. But in terms of these specifics of the ballistics, you've been very helpful, my friend. Anything else you would add before I let you get

on your flight? at least the day i get to say to you what you say to me thank you for accommodating my schedule oh you're welcome my dear friend we will see you at 5 30 eastern on monday if i am correct not at 11 30 in the morning but at 5 30 and you can say that to me again right and i will say thank you for accommodating my schedule thank you larry safe travels have a nice weekend all the best all right this is a terrible uh moni horrific tragedy. It's horrible when anybody dies, but this public assault on the First Amendment is reprehensible, and I pray to God that this does not lead to anything worse. I'm deeply

grateful for Larry, as you can see, in the corner of an airport chatting with us. Coming up at 4 o'clock this afternoon, the Intelligence Community Roundtable, with the great Scott Ritter filling in for Larry and, of course, the great Ray McGovern as well. We'll be covering not only the murder of Charlie Kirk, the assassination of Charlie Kirk, but also the other international events, the fallout from the Israeli attack on Hamas in Doha, Qatar, the likelihood of the United States involvement and facilitation in that. And the Russian military inching close and closer to achieving its goals in Ukraine. That's at 4 o'clock Easter in the Intelligence Community Roundtable.

Thank you for watching this special edition of Judging Freedom, Judge Napolitano for Judging Freedom. Thank you.