Judging Freedom - Ukraine & Faith in F-16s w/Ray McGovern fmr CIA

Episode Date: August 21, 2023

Ukraine & Faith in F-16s  w/Ray McGovern fmr CIASee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Thank you. Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Monday, August 21st, 2023. Ray McGovern joins us now. Our apologies for the delay in getting started. Ray was here, I was here, the internet was not, but we managed to connect everything together. Ray, always a pleasure. Thank you very much for joining us. How badly is Ukraine losing this war? Very. I would say that it's very definitive now, even the Western press is acknowledging that they will not achieve the objective of the so-called counteroffensive.

So what happens now? They also reveal, the Western press, that one of the accounts is 500,000 troops have perished killed dead they say more Russians than Ukrainians that's a fiction they're more Ukrainians dead than Russians but 500 000. so what they needed is something to put in the headlines for Monday morning other than that and that is ah F-16s are now going uh from Netherlands and from Denmark to Ukraine now uh McGovern exaggerates now means well maybe next summer next summer like uh 2024 it's crazy but it divertsts attention. And the Lockheeds and the Raytheons of this world are just really happy to get rid of this old equipment so they can build new stuff and pedal

that. All right. So American F-16s sold by Lockheed, Raytheon, et cetera, to foreign governments with the condition that if the foreign governments are going to transfer them to another foreign government, they need the consent of the American government, which apparently has been granted. Here's Jake Sullivan, the president's national security advisor. There's a lot of blather in what you're going to hear, but basically that's what he said at Camp David yesterday, that we've approved these transfers. You and I will talk after we listen to him as whether the war will even still be going on by the time the F-16s get there. But here's Mr. Sullivan. I will say that over the course of the past two years, there have been a lot of analyses of how this war would unfold coming from a lot of

quarters. And we've seen numerous changes in those analyses over time as dynamic battlefield conditions change. So what we have said from multiple podiums and multiple briefings remains the same, which is we're doing everything we can to support Ukraine in its counteroffensive. We're not going to handicap the outcome. We're not going to predict what's going to happen because this war has been inherently unpredictable. What we did this week is formalize through a letter from Secretary Blinken to his counterparts in Europe that upon the completion of that training, the United States would be prepared in consultation with Congress to approve third-party transfer of F-16 aircraft to Ukraine. There have, for reasons I don't fully understand, been questions about

whether we were actually going to do that. So to put all of those questions to rest, then in fact, the training will be followed by the transfer as we work with Congress to effectuate that and with our allies. You know, there's a lot to unpack there, Ray, but I'll start with we can't handicap the war and we have no predictions. No predictions, Jake? Your boss said Putin has already lost the war. He said it many, many times. He couldn't say it in a allegory, Jake Sullivan, now see what's happening and is forced to confront reality? Well, it's the latter, but I wish you hadn't quoted Biden and Blinken and, what's his name, Bill Burns, the head of CIA, all said that russia has lost this thing so

uh what's oh i guess uh well either sullivan didn't get the word or maybe he as you as he suggests it's sort of backtracking i was going to be training these people now how many are they training well maybe six or eight are they ones that already can fly planes no they're not ones that they can pilot yet because they would be harder to train because they know about Soviet flying. So they're going to be, first they have to learn English, okay?

Then they're going to train them. Then we get those. And when we get 65 or whatever, Milley has already warned us. 65 against, the Russians have a thousand of these things. You know, a thousand of these things, and they're actually a little bit more sophisticated. So it's going to be a hard bloody slog. Well, yeah, General Milley, why don't you stand up, General Milley, and before you quit,

quit and say, look, I tried to get these guys to recognize reality. They can't. People keep shedding their blood unnecessarily in Ukraine. That's the story. You know it, General Milley. Why don't you fulfill your obligation, the sworn oath you made to the Constitution of the United States, not to some president? Right. How old are these F-16s that, for example, the Netherlands is, and we'll show you, it's ridiculous, but everybody has to see a clip from the Netherlands over the weekend. How old are the F-16s that they're going to be sending to Ukraine? Well, you remember Hans Christian Andersen, he was around when the first ones arrived, I'm told. No, they're not quite that old, but they are decades old.

And of course, we keep building newer ones. You know, George, I asked Doug McGregor this morning, I said, I got an idea, Doug. Is there a disincentive now for the arms manufacturers and the arms sellers, traders, is there a disincentive to keep this war going? But the Russians are showing up these weapons, and they're showing the whole world that these things don't work real well.

Is there a disincentive? And Doug said, good thought, Ray, but no. They're just as happy, these arms manufacturers, get rid of their old stock, because they're building new stuff all the time, and advertise their new stuff it's much better than the old stuff that the russians russians made mincemeat out of so so it doesn't even work for the people building these weapons and they're happy to put them into the fray and as general millie and actually who would the head of the air force in europe u.s air force said over the weekend, you know, F-16s are really great, but look, it's not a silver bullet. Please, don't anybody think it's a silver

bullet. Well, as I said, Milley has already said, 35, 100 F-16s against 1,000 very, very sophisticated Russian aircraft. There's really no match, and it just keeps this thing going. And as I keep saying, people keep dying unnecessarily. I'm thinking that the whole F-16 nonsense is just for Ukraine domestic political consumption, because it's not going to affect the outcome of the war, because the war will be over by the time the F-16s get there. And there are Ukrainian pilots, as you indicated, language barrier, unlearning what you know about the MiGs and then start learning the new one. By the time they're Ukrainian pilots, they use them. And even when there are, they'll be so outnumbered by the Russians. But here's to show you the domestic political consumption. Here is a produced, you'll see what I mean by produced, you'll see why I'm doing

air quotes, speech President Zelensky gave yesterday in Copenhagen with all the earmarks of either Hollywood or political consultants having edited it. Watch this. When Ukraine needs weapons, you help. And I thank you and the whole of Denmark, all the weapons you are giving to protect freedom. And for F-16s, we agreed it on thank you so much

today we are confident that russia will lose this war Now, you can do a lot with camera angles to make a crowd look larger than it is, and you can zoom in to sort of idolize the person speaking. I was wrong when I said over the weekend, he said that just a few hours ago today, Monday, August 21st in Copenhagen. Is he fooling himself? Well, at least he used the future tense that Russia will be defeated. We will win this war. Biden, as you already told us all, says that they have already lost the war. Biden, as you already told us all, says that they have already lost the war. There's an aura of unreality here. They're stringing this fellow along. As you point out, these things, if they ever arrive in Ukraine, they have to find some airfields to fly out of if they fly out of polish or romanian airfields they're in

trouble real deep and maybe nato is in the mix and they're not going to come anytime soon now early in january of this year late january actually was january 26th we told biden look Look, even your big tanks and your aircraft and your long-range missiles, if they ever get to Ukraine, they're going to be late to the party. So don't think that you're going to be able to switch the fortunes of battle because of these things. You're not. They're going to be months and months and months late. So you have a choice, Mr. Biden, between World War III, okay, which means Russia can't lose, or you have a choice of upping the thing to a tactical nuclear fray, and we all lose, all of us. MICHAEL ISIKOFF So Germany is going to have a cold winter because of the American destruction of the Nord Stream pipeline. That continues to reverberate with all sorts of negative signals in the German economy

prior to the war, the most robust in Europe. Is it fair to say that the American and NATO support of Ukraine has damaged, damaged the economy of NATO? Yes, it is not only fair to say it's completely accurate. And as the winter nears, and this winter is probably not going to be as mild as last winter, are these people going to feel it? Okay. Now, the Germans, I know the Germans pretty well. I would have thought that when Biden blew up their essential pipeline under the Baltic,

the Nord Stream pipeline, that that would demur. You know, they would say, well, wait a second. That's going to make our heating bills three times as high. And wow, we need that stuff. Why did you do that for? But no, no. Scholz, the chancellor, was standing right there when Biden said, there will be no more Nord Stream. We can do it. And they did it. So how long is it going to take the german people to stand up and say kansler schultz did biden tell you he's gonna what's that i said chancellor schultz it's time for you to go you allowed another nato country to attack ours and as a result my house is going to be 45 degrees at the warmest, speaking in Fahrenheit, this winter.

Yeah, well, they first they'll say, sure. Did Biden tell you about that? Did he tell you about his plan? And what's this business about the Ukrainians doing? The Ukrainians can't do it. It was done by the U.S. We know that. So did you remonstrate?

Did he not tell you? What does all that say? And we're going to be very cold. And you're right. You're right, Judge. The prospect for the continuation in power of this very labile, very, very delicate coalition is very poor. And, you know, one of the worst things here is the ultra-right, the Alternative für Deutschland, AFD, they are gaining strength. They are up to 21% of the vote, almost as much as the Christian Democrats. So what does that mean?

That means that they're gaining strength by criticizing the United States, whereas none of the other parties are criticizing. That's really, that's not good in my view, but it's reality and there has to be a change soon. My colleague Larry Johnson has predicted it will become within the next few months. I suspect he's right. against the free migration of peoples throughout the EU. And just over the weekend, Chancellor Schultz himself said, contrary to what he's been saying for the past time he's been in office, we have to re-examine the concept of free migration of peoples across the EU. He's starting to sound a little bit like the AFD. But here's my question to you, and you can address this migration issue as well if you want. This war is going so badly for Ukraine, and it is having such a negative effect on the European economy. Do you think perhaps NATO will stop being the American poodle? No. I say that because I've been saying they're bound to do this about every five years for the

last two decades, okay? I don't know what it is, but you have a bunch of political hacks in power in Western Europe and in Eastern Europe. Some of them put in with the generous help from the US and they're not of the same caliber as de Gaulle or Willy Brandt or people who could see beyond their noses, okay? So what I suspect is that the place is going to implode, there'll be an election, and I just hope that the hard extreme right, which some people call almost Nazis, will not get such a strong position that they will be able to work their will on

things like immigration. Now, I'm a little different on immigration. I follow the ethos that you're supposed to take care of the widow, the orphan, and the refugee. If I were advising Schwartz, I would say, Schwartz, take that billion euros that you're going to build more of these leopard tanks for the Russians to kill. Take that billion zero and put that into helping the widow, the orphan, and the refugee. I'm with you, Ray. I'm writing, I want to switch gears a little bit. I'm writing a column this week on torture, working title, Torture Comes Home to Roost, because of an incredible, remarkable decision by a military judge in Guantanamo Bay for the first time in 20 years, suppressing totally and completely a confession given by the guy whom the government believes destroyed or attacked the USS Cole, which resulted in the murder of 17 sailors and the injury of hundreds of others. The government tortured him in Thailand, in Poland, in Afghanistan, and at Guantanamo Bay.

And then when the torture was over, some sort of a clean team came in. By this point, he was just a robot. As soon as he heard the sound of a drill, which they kept playing within a millimeter of his scalp, he said exactly what they wanted to say. I'm not going to go through all the torture. It was horrific. A federal judge finally saw through all of this and suppressed it. The government doesn't know what to do because it was basing its case on his confession. At the same time, the government has negotiated a plea deal with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, arguably the mastermind of 9-11,

and the government is afraid to try that case because Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's lawyers will reveal exactly what they did to him. Does torture work? Does it produce actionable intelligence? The answer to that is precisely no. No qualifications about it. We learned that as army infantry officers, you know, not only does it give a country a bad name, not only does it encourage other countries to do the same to our guys, but it's not only against the law. It's wrong because it's wrong and it doesn't work. done by the Senate Intelligence Committee based on CIA documents about torture, Dianne Feinstein, to her credit, got up on the Senate floor and let all that puss out. She said that the U.S. had tortured, that the CIA, by its own documents, showed to have lied about the torture, that it was not effective, and they tried every trick in the books, including hacking into the Senate Intelligence Committee

computers to disguise that fact. Now what happened to those guys? Oh, you know what happened? Averill Haynes, then the deputy to John Brennan's security counsel. And then she was with... We're losing you, right? She came up with it. She said... Are you hearing me?

Yeah, you're back now. Go ahead. Go ahead. We lost you after Averill Haynes. Okay. Now she had been John Brennan's deputy, personally selected by John Brennan. You know what that means. She was brought over to the National Security Council to investigate the CIA, which they acknowledged hacking of the Senate Intelligence Committee computers. And she said, well, these people actually, she let them off cold. So, yeah, this is the way the system works.

My point, of course, is no one is ever held accountable for this thing. For some reason, Brennan was protected by Obama and Obama's chief of staff to the hilt, and nothing happened to him either. So these people now pronounce on MSNBC and CNN, stuff that people are supposed to believe them. Well, nobody knows not to believe them. So most people believe them. Do CIA torturers talk about it, acknowledge it, boast about it, discuss it, recognize that it doesn't work? Well, Judge, we're talking about the operational side of the CIA, but I have to say that even some of my former friends as analysts lost it, you know. And one of them said to me, you know, if Al-Qaeda had my wife or daughter

cornered, I would torture, whatever, you know, I'd torture him, I'd take his justice. I said, but that doesn't work. That's all right. That's what I do. But the operational people, you know, they laugh at it. John Curiaco, they tried to recruit him. Hey, you want to be schooled in what we call enhanced interrogation techniques? John says, typically. So what's that? Tell me about it. Well, found out I was tortured.

You know, thank you very much. I don't want to be schooled in that because I don't think it's right. Okay. What happened to him? You know what happened, Tim. Almost two years in prison. Yeah. Correct.

Two years in prison. Yeah. Correct. So the question is, does anybody in the CIA get prosecuted for torture? The answer is, yeah, John Kiriakou did for revealing the torture, not for perpetrating it. The guys who perpetrated it either got immunity from Bush and Obama, or just some sort of an agreement not to prosecute, even though it's a war crime, and there's no statute of limitations. So should not sleep the torturers should not sleep

well at night somebody with the ray mcgovern mentality may be in the white house or the justice department one day and decide these people have to be prosecuted right yeah so i'll just add to that that the the saint of john durham now who finally finally came through with showing everyone that the FBI had no real evidence to create Russiagate, okay? He had a chance to prosecute two CIA torturers, one of them using the drill, okay? Right. Who were just guilty of sin, documented guilty. And he was told, you know, leave them off too.

And he did. So that was 10 years ago, but he did that. So I didn't have real high hopes for John Durham. I'm glad we got what we got from him, but even he was co-opted in that respect. Ray McGovern, always a pleasure, my dear friend. Thank you for joining us. I hope that we'll see you again soon, perhaps Friday with Larry Johnson now becoming, even though you and Larry are very, very popular with the fans, that roundtable is becoming a very popular fixture and go-to place for the Judging Freedom fans. Thank you, Ray. All the best.

Thank you, Ray. All the best. Thank you. Of course. Judge Napolitano for Judging Freedom. Morris, we get it. Colonel McGregor later today. Scott Ritter on Thursday. We're up to 184,000 subscriptions. We have 16,000 to go to reach our goal of 200,000 on Labor Day.

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