Judging Freedom - Ukraine turning into a Grave Yard w/Col Douglas Macgregor

Episode Date: August 3, 2023

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Thank you. Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Thursday, May 3rd, 2023. Colonel Douglas McGregor joins us now. Colonel, always a pleasure. Thank you for joining us. Before we start, I got to read what one of the commenters has just written. William Rutter, R-U-T-T-E-R. I wish McGregor was president. Well, fortunately, there are no good fairies around to grant that wish. I wish McGregor were the Secretary of Defense, which might very well happen if Donald Trump serves another term or if RFK Jr. is in the White House. Another story for another time. You have opined that armies lose for two reasons, because they're defeated or because they're broken. What is the status of the Ukrainian military as we speak on April 3rd, 2023? Well, Mike Vlahos has written a brilliant article in Compact on that subject, and he argues,

and I think he's right, that the Ukrainian army is indeed broken. When the Army of Northern Virginia under Lee surrendered, he was effectively surrendering all of the Confederate armies. Those armies were not broken. They were not in disarray. They had been severely reduced and driven to the point of despair, but they surrendered intact and did ultimately what they were asked to do by their commanders, became Americans. The Ukrainians are in a different position right now I think the soldiers of the Ukrainian Army have been used like cannon fodder to satisfy short-term NATO political interests that frankly were never in the interest of the people of Ukraine just as I don't

think Mr zelensky and his government have acted in the interests of the Ukrainian people and so the army very definitely is broken how how much longer will this go on well to some extent that depends on russia because moscow has to decide does it move forward now and sweep what's there away or does moscow find another way forward by talking directly to the europeans about the importance of ending this strategy because quite frankly Mr Putin has never wanted to govern vast tracts of territory in Western Ukraine he doesn't want to even govern Ukrainians he was simply interested in putting an end to the mistreatment of Russians living inside Ukraine and he now sits on the terrain that is overwhelmingly Russian and has been forever so I think that's

the real question now. It is broken. And my heart goes out to the Ukrainian people and the losses they've taken, because I think they were ruthlessly exploited by the West and their own government. So Mike points out, I don't want to go through all the statistics. The war has been going on for 500 days. They've lost 300,000 soldiers. 50,000 soldiers have lost one or more limbs. Their population has gone from 52 million in 1994 to 20 million today. The loss ratio is five to one for every one Russian killed or wounded. Five Ukrainians are killed or wounded. It doesn't even seem to this non-military educated mind that a continued war is feasible. Is it,

Colonel? I don't think it is. And I think this whole nonsense about delivering more weaponry in the hopes that it's going to make any difference has got to go away and it needs to go away as soon as possible because until we stop supplying the ukrainians the russians will not stop they want an end to this military aid so that has to be suspended immediately i think you know he also makes some comparisons to the german armies at the end of world war one he talks about about the Italian army fighting at Caporetto in 1917. None of these armies broke. They did not break apart, but they were defeated. And you can rebound from a defeat. In other words, you could accept defeat on one week or one day or one month, then you can come back. You don't come back from being broken. And that's- Colonel, what is a broken army? How would you characterize an army that is broken? And why is

it that you characterize or accept the characterization of the Ukrainian army as broken? Well, you have large numbers of Ukrainians in uniform right now who were pressed into service, who have seen their countrymen slaughtered in these pointless attacks against Russian defenses, and they are now refusing to attack. This is not new, but they are refusing to attack in larger and larger numbers. They are now fearful of being murdered by the Ukrainian secret police behind them, very similar to what Stalin ran during World War II with the NKVD. And then you have units surrendering, platoons, companies, and so forth, where their commanders call and say, look, you know, we've had enough. I can't evacuate my men. I don't want my wounded to die. Can we

surrender? And this is the key thing that we really need to remember. The Russians have always treated the Ukrainian soldiers who surrendered well. They have not been subjected to mistreatment. They have not been tortured or beaten. That's all nonsense. And that's been a very wise policy because the Ukrainians know, look, if we can't fight anymore, we can surrender and they're not going to murder us. And I think that's very, very important. Here's Mrs. Zelensky complaining about President Biden's use of the phrase, we will supply what Ukraine needs for as long as it takes. You and I have opined that I would like to hear the president answer as long as it takes to do what? To drive

Putin from office, not militarily feasible. To recapture Crimea, not militarily feasible. To push the Russians eastward, not militarily feasible. I don't think the president's ever answered that. But here's what, I'm not going to have to read the translation, here's what Mrs. Zelensky thinks of that. We keep hearing from our Western partners that it will be with us as long as it takes. Long is not the word we should use. We should use the word faster.

I mean, for domestic consumption or a thumb in Joe Biden's eye? Probably a little bit of both. I mean, we could deliver a lot of things tomorrow morning and it wouldn't make any difference. We've talked about this before. You cannot build armies on the fly. It takes time. It takes time to assimilate equipment. It takes time for your soldiers to master it.

It takes time to build formations. That's why numbers are not terribly meaningful. And when you go to war, the real question is how many trained and ready formations do you have that can fight? And then there's this, also to go back to something else, there's this obsession in the West with terrain, with territory. The Russians have understood from the beginning that to win, they had to destroy the Ukrainian armed forces. They've largely done that. The Ukrainians have never understood that for them to win, they'd have to destroy the Russian armed forces. Remember, this is a place where there's no shortage of ground. There's lots of ground. Ground in and of itself doesn't amount to much. So now it's very clear the Ukrainians cannot recapture any ground.

But more important, they can't destroy the Russian army. It cannot be done. Colonel, it's interesting your observations on ground and terrain, because our friend and betonoir, Beast in the Night, Jack Devine, just complained on this show a few minutes ago that the Russians can't seem to make progress. They can't seem to seize as much terrain as they want. And in fact, the Ukrainians have taken back from the Russians some of the terrain that the Russians have taken initially. Here's Jack. They have no artillery shells. We have no artillery shells to

give them. The Russians have, let me finish, Jack. The Russians have destroyed nearly all the HIMARS we've given them. What more can we give them? What more do Mr. and Mrs. Zelensky want from us? They clearly don't have the weapons they need right now. They're in route, okay? They're promised, okay? We're going to get them. And then the Russians are not making any progress. So even with everything you've said, this great Russian army can't make any ground. In other words, they can't do anything. The Ukrainians don't have any weapons. They don't have this. They don't have that. But the Russians can't win two more feet of ground. What does that say? So, does he know what he's talking about? What weaponry is in route and where is it?

How important is terrain, Colonel? Well, no, he doesn't understand. He doesn't understand any of it. He's thinking in terms, once again, that don't make any sense. The Ukrainian army that existed at the beginning of this war was destroyed. It's gone. And the Ukrainians have managed to raise, I would say, the equivalent of two more armies, which are now also destroyed. It's rather similar to the Germans in World War II. They destroyed three Soviet armies, but they could not destroy the fourth. They didn't have the wherewithal. Now, today, the Ukrainians have never had the wherewithal to destroy the Russian

army. It's impossible. And this was the problem with the promise that was made to Zelensky and the Ukrainian government by Boris Johnson. You know, we'll put everything behind you. You'll have the total scientific industrial power of the United States and NATO. You can't lose. We'll be with you. Well, it sounds great in theory, but in practice, it doesn't work because the Ukrainians could not field forces highly trained and capable soon enough to make a difference. And then I would argue the Ukrainians have been living in this World War II paradigm. The Russians are not. The Russians have cracked the code. The code is that intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance that's overhead, linked to strike systems, artillery systems,

rocket systems, missile systems, can pinpoint all the forces that are out there and accurately destroy them. Add to this mines that can be deployed now from the air, could be deployed in any number of different ways, and you have an entirely different form of warfare that we have not faced. And yet we've continued to train the Ukrainians to behave as though this is another replay of World War II. It's not. We're going to take a break for our sponsor. When we come back, I'm going to play a tape of General David Petraeus

saying his advice is to carpet bomb parts of Ukraine that Ukraine wants to take back. And Colonel McGregor will happily respond right after this. Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Lear Capital. Are you tired of feeling helpless while rollercoaster markets and economic uncertainty wreak havoc on your savings? It's time to take control of your financial future and consider investing in gold. Gold has a long history as a safe haven for investors who want to diversify their wealth against economic uncertainty. Unlike paper investments, gold is easy to buy and easy to sell and easy to store and has never been worth zero. Lear Capital. I know the folks at Lear. I trust the folks at Lear. I do my investing in gold and silver at Lear, and you should do the same. Lear has over 25 years of experience in the business

and thousands of five-star reviews and a 24-hour purchase guarantee, risk-free. When I buy gold, I choose Lear. So call my friends at Lear. Use the 800 number below. Tell them the judge sent you. 800-511-4620. Get your gold and silver wealth protection information. Get your investor information. Get your questions answered with no pressure and no obligation to purchase. And for a limited time, you might be able to qualify for a $15,000 bonus gold with a qualifying purchase. So call my friends at Lear, 800-511-4620, or do as I do and go on the Internet, learjudgenap.com. Colonel, before we play this tape of General Petraeus, is Washington misjudging or misunderstanding Moscow? Oh, fundamentally. From the very beginning, it's believed its own nonsense, you know, what Moscow's interests were, and they've never been what Washington said.

And so now we're not just underestimating the Russian military. We've already done that. But we're misjudging where the Russians want to go with this. And I think the Europeans have begun to figure this out. The question is how rapidly can you turn over the governments in Berlin and France to get change in Europe? You think the governments in Berlin and Paris are not long for the world? No, I don't. I think Paris is probably going to turn over sooner. I mean, Mr. Macron is about as popular as the plague in that country and with good reason.

And the same thing in Germany. The anger at the European Union. Remember, I think it was recently President Orban made some statement about the EU is all about LGBT migration and war. Right. You know, I would say that for the standpoint of most Americans right now, we see it as transgenderism, open borders and war. It's the same thing, effectively, but that's the slight difference. And so the notion of what are we fighting for comes up, you know, and if you say to someone, we're fighting for God, country, and family, well, that resonates. That's what I was raised with. That's what anybody believes if they're going to go to war. They're going to fight for something,

you're going to fight for God, country, and Right. Well, that's gone. And I think the Europeans have broken the code, and I think they're going to get out from under this. I don't know how, but I think it's coming. Here's General Petraeus in what I think you'll find is a delusional moment on CNN. I think they need to be doing what they actually are now doing, having adapted their plan. Of course, no plan survives contact with the enemy. And it was quickly clear that these miles-long minefields, anti-personnel, anti-tank minefields, tank ditches, dragon's teeth, trench lines full of Russian soldiers, all overwatched by forward observers and drones with

artillery on call, that these were going to be very, very difficult to breach given the shortcomings that the Ukrainians have in certain assets that we would have deployed in this kind of situation, in particular, massive air power. We would have just carpet bombed the whole area of these minefields, tried to blow up as much as we possibly could. And then very substantial, heavily armed, essentially bulldozers, D-9 bulldozers that just plow their way through this, supported again by close air support, attack helicopters and the rest. They don't have that. So they've adapted, I think, impressively. Have they adapted impressively? Does the general present rational views on this? No. Let's take it from the top. He does not understand the revolutionary impact

of persistent surveillance from space and other terrestrial capabilities. That means that nothing happening anywhere on the ground in eastern Ukraine is going to escape the attention and detection of the Russians. If you go back to World War II and the last year of the war when we had air supremacy, the German army could not move anywhere during the daylight. And this had a huge impact on the conduct of the war. That's why the bulge came as a surprise to people, because the weather favored the Germans for a brief period. But today, weather doesn't matter. Today, day or night doesn't matter. Everything can be seen from above. And he doesn't seem to understand what that means to attacking forces. How do you assemble? How do you concentrate? How do you move? If from the moment you decide to do something, your opponent sees all of it?

He can also target you, and he can target you relentlessly with great precision, so his bulldozers will never reach the front. The bulldozers will be picked out from above and destroyed with any number of different systems, unmanned or manned. That's number one. Number two, he doesn't understand integrated air defenses. You know, we can't fly with impunity as we did 50, 60, 70 years ago. The integrated air defenses have the advantages of microcircuitry that allow the Russians, just as we do it and the Chinese do it, to rapidly integrate through enormous algorithms, target forms. So, you know, today we can track a basketball over New Orleans, basically from New York City.

Now, start and think about that. That's a revolutionary change to warfare. Now, can we disrupt that? Well, we can try, and the Russians certainly would if we fought them. But right now, Ukrainians can't disrupt that. They can't change it. So Ukrainians bouncing basketballs are not going to win this war. Let's put it bluntly. And this replay of World War II over and over and over again misses something else. Mines have always been with us. World War I stopped all movement largely because of mines

and quick-firing artillery. Mines were a nightmare in World War II. Field Marshal Slim, who fought the Japanese in Burma, talked about the worst thing you can encounter is not the enemy, it's a mine. Mines stop everything. He doesn't seem to get it. Now you combine the minefields with what I just discussed as persistent intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance, and precision targeting, and you're dead. It's that simple. Secretary of State Blinken, National Security Advisor Sullivan, CIA Director Burns, his counterpart, name escaping me, at MI6, as well as politicians in Paris and Berlin have been uttering the same mantra. Putin has already lost. Putin has already lost. Are they delusional enough to think that the narrative, which they do control, can influence the battlefield? No, I think they've learned that the narrative can't, but the narrative can create the illusion that things are not as bad

as they are, that somehow or another, mirac miraculously a turn of events could occur but no they know the narrative can't change the reality on the ground but i think there's something else going on too and and i've begun to see this in the new york times and the telegraph and other major newspapers there's this discussion of well you know, the Ukrainians haven't done very well. We've given them enormous support, and they just don't seem to be able to do it. It sounds to me as though someone in the back end of the West Wing of the White House has said, you know, we have to get out of this. The only way we can get out of this is to say, well, you know, we did all we could. Ukrainians just couldn't make it

work. You know, and listen, we can't do this forever. We've done everything we can. It's not our fault. It's the Ukrainians' fault. That's where I think we're headed right now. Well, you and I have talked for more than a year now that the Biden administration doesn't have an off-ramp. Maybe they're starting to build one as odious as it is to them to recognize reality. Well, it looks like the end of Vietnam. I mean, I lived through that. I don't know if you were old enough to do that, Judge, but I did. You're so kind, Colonel. I remember there were lots of people on the streets that sort of, you know, well, you know, we did all we could. The South Vietnamese, we gave them everything. Look at all the money we invested and blood and so forth.

So, well, you know, so be it. I think something similar is being planned for Ukraine. But here's the problem. NATO is dead. You know, it's on life support. It's a comatose patient very nearly at this stage. And the only thing the White House can do is give the heart patient a haircut and a shave. And that's not what's needed.

Boy, in the Gorbachev, George H.W. Bush years, NATO thought it was omnipotent, didn't it? Oh, sure, and invincible. But what have we learned from this entire exercise? NATO isn't NATO at all. It's a few nations out of, what, 32? So what's everybody joining NATO for? Well, they join for many reasons, one of which is they want to be defended and they don't want to invest much money themselves. Well, we know that. Secondly, it's another channel of communications back to Washington. It allows military to military communications and so forth. And people want good deals on investments and armaments. And so you use your connections through NATO to get those.

But NATO itself is crumbling because we can't get it done. We have banked heavily on Ukraine. We've invested everything in Ukraine. And we have constantly insisted that victory was not only inevitable, but absolutely essential because Russia and Putin are evil incarnate. How can you possibly make peace with Putin and Russia? Well, all of that is going away. It's falling apart because it was never true. And the Europeans have figured it out. We have a long way to go. But if you look at the polling data that's come in from Germany, for instance, the Germans have turned decisively against this war. Do the Germans realize that they might have a cold winter coming? And do they recognize the true actors who destroyed the Nord Stream pipeline?

Or have they bought the Scholz-Biden argument that it was two guys in a sailboat? I think the two guys in a sailboat argument has failed. And I think the Germans, by the end of the year, are going to be fundamentally, throughout, completely anti-American. And that is tragically the real outcome of this entire exercise. I mean, if you do what the Americans say, what happens to you? Your economy is destroyed. Your standard of living drops. You're joining a war you don't need to fight against a country that really isn't your enemy. That's one hell of a summation, but I think as the months go forward, we're going to see more and more people reach that conclusion.

MR. We'll end on that brilliant and articulate and powerful summation. Colonel Douglas MacGregor, always a pleasure, sir. Thank you very much for joining us. MR. Sure. Thank you, Judge. MR. More as we get it. Judge Napolitano for Judging Freedom. Thank you.